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View Full Version : Bill Rogers on a RDS on a fighting pistol



GJM
11-02-2011, 08:03 PM
This afternoon, I asked Bill if he had many people come thru school with RDS sights, how they did, and what he thought of them versus iron sights. He said he had three shooters with RDS sights in a class about a month back and that they finished 1,2 and 3 in the class. As to how they compare to iron sights, he said the comparison was similar to the difference between an Aimpoint and iron sights on a carbine, and there was no doubt in his mind that they are better. He is now working on new holsters for the Glock and M&P that protect the optic from damage and debris.

ToddG
11-02-2011, 08:08 PM
It's worth noting that the main area in which MRDS are weak -- tracking for multiple fast shots on a target -- is not a skill that is particularly important at Rogers.

DannyZRC
11-02-2011, 09:15 PM
It's worth noting that the main area in which MRDS are weak -- tracking for multiple fast shots on a target -- is not a skill that is particularly important at Rogers.

Easy to solve, use a red dot with a man's gun, the .45, instead of that girly euro pellet you love so dearly.

(sarcasm people, sarcasm)

Dagga Boy
11-02-2011, 09:19 PM
Easy to solve, use a red dot with a man's gun, the .45, instead of that girly euro pellet you love so dearly.

(sarcasm people, sarcasm)

Cause you only need one...........especially with a 1911:cool:.

Back on topic-I spent some time with my Glock 17 with an Aimpoint last week. So far, I like it. Definite learning curve. I hope to get it out again this week. I couldn't do any worse than I have been lately. Getting back into a regular practice routine with a serious training partner has been a bunch of humble pie, and realizing I have to work much harder as the body and eyes are getting worse.

GJM
11-03-2011, 04:40 PM
It's worth noting that the main area in which MRDS are weak -- tracking for multiple fast shots on a target -- is not a skill that is particularly important at Rogers.

I asked Bill this specific question today, and he said for a skilled shooter, with an efficient press out, he believes the RDS is an advantage there too. Specifically, he said he shoots better Bill drills with an RDS.

YVK
11-03-2011, 04:59 PM
I asked Bill this specific question today, and he said for a skilled shooter, with an efficient press out, he believes the RDS is an advantage there too. Specifically, he said he shoots better Bill drills with an RDS.

Somebody needs to put an RDS-specific class, maybe Rogers can do it. I am by no means skilled, but I can't do a press out with an RDS. I can simulate the motion, but I can't see the dot until very late in presentation and since I can't see the dot, I can't initiate the trigger press etc. I've tried to press out conventionally and then switch from a front sight onto a dot, but it seems both counterproductive and slow. Seems to me that however you present - punch out of the holster or pressout-like, the reliance is still on index rather than visual control of the dot from beginning to the end of presentation.

JAD
11-03-2011, 05:08 PM
I may go ahead and just cave right the heck in on this one. The FNP45 seems like it might be a quick launch into the technology, easier than getting a 1911 hacked up. Hrm.

JV_
11-03-2011, 05:51 PM
I have very little time with an RDS, but the time I did have was eye opening. I found that the elevated muzzle press out, which essentially passes through a high ready, doesn't work well for an RDS. The dot is visible too late in the process. You have to try and keep the muzzle horizontal and raise it up in to your line of sight - then go toward the target (L shaped). I tried that horizontal press out with iron sights and hated it.

JHC
11-03-2011, 07:22 PM
I have very little time with an RDS, but the time I did have was eye opening. I found that the elevated muzzle press out, which essentially passes through a high ready, doesn't work well for an RDS. The dot is visible too late in the process. You have to try and keep the muzzle horizontal and raise it up in to your line of sight - then go toward the target (L shaped). I tried that horizontal press out with iron sights and hated it.

Same as my experience with one. Some day vision will probably force me that way but I can afford to pass on them for now.

Tamara
11-03-2011, 07:52 PM
Cause you only need one...........especially with a 1911:cool:.

Dude, everybody knows that .45ACP is 38.5% more powerful when launched out of a 1911 than it is from a Glock, M&P, HK, or XD. Even with red dot sights. :p

JHC
11-04-2011, 08:14 AM
This afternoon, I asked Bill if he had many people come thru school with RDS sights, how they did, and what he thought of them versus iron sights. He said he had three shooters with RDS sights in a class about a month back and that they finished 1,2 and 3 in the class. As to how they compare to iron sights, he said the comparison was similar to the difference between an Aimpoint and iron sights on a carbine, and there was no doubt in his mind that they are better. He is now working on new holsters for the Glock and M&P that protect the optic from damage and debris.

Any chance they were "public sector" shooters with a massive ammo budget that may have cleaned 1st, 2nd, 3rd with irons?

Dagga Boy
11-04-2011, 08:31 AM
Dude, everybody knows that .45ACP is 38.5% more powerful when launched out of a 1911 than it is from a Glock, M&P, HK, or XD. Even with red dot sights. :p

This again establishes why you are by far my favorite person on this forum. At least somebody gets it.:D

I think the big revolution in the red dot when used on handguns is when we can get them mounted in a way in which the sight does not move with the slide in a size that is practical for every day carry. This will take somebody literally designing a pistol around the concept.

HeadHunter
11-04-2011, 09:04 AM
Any chance they were "public sector" shooters with a massive ammo budget that may have cleaned 1st, 2nd, 3rd with irons?

They were from TDI. I am hard pressed to remember many "public sector" shooters who cleaned much of anything, other than brass off the ground, at Rogers while I was there. SDave and Seeklander are the only two who come to mind for pistol. There was an SF guy who did very well on the rifle course; his background was in National Match shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSxXOZVHKcU

GJM
11-23-2011, 09:12 PM
It's worth noting that the main area in which MRDS are weak -- tracking for multiple fast shots on a target -- is not a skill that is particularly important at Rogers.

Todd, can you define "tracking for multiple fast shots on a target" in terms of the distance of the target and accuracy objective? Also, can you suggest the drills you would use to evaluate tracking for multiple shots on target?

ToddG
11-24-2011, 08:46 AM
Todd, can you define "tracking for multiple fast shots on a target" in terms of the distance of the target and accuracy objective? Also, can you suggest the drills you would use to evaluate tracking for multiple shots on target?

G -- Your reported results are at the very far end of the bell curve. Most folks find doing drills like a simple Bill Drill extremely difficult. I'd use the Bill Drill at 7yd on an 8" as a fairly good standard of measure.

JHC
11-24-2011, 10:13 AM
Headhunter, thanks for the info and vid. I am not sure what the heck exactly I was even asking originally. I think I was too cute by half suggesting whomever they were, they may have cleaned 1,2,3 with or without. Thanks again.

GJM
11-24-2011, 02:08 PM
I specifically asked Bill Rogers about this. He said a good shooter shoots even better with a RDS, period, and that in the case of these three, they shot better with the RDS than they would have with irons. As to how much better, I don't know, but it would obviously depend upon the course of fire, the individual shooter and their familiarity with the RDS.

I wanted to hear from Todd on the drill he would use to evaluate the shooter's ability to place fast, multiple shots on a target, since he identified that as a weak point with an RDS. He replied the Bill drill, and assuming my last range session was not an anomaly, I shoot better Bill drills with the RDS. Removing the RMR slide, and shooting with an iron sight upper on the same G17 lower, during the same session, confirmed that for me.

For months, I have heard how the RDS is slower close up, and takes a long time to transition to. I certainly had that in my head, but then Bill Rogers told me that was BS, and so far, he was right. I wonder how much hearing from Bill gave me permission to take to it faster. I would love to run an experiment with a large group of solid shooters -- tell half to run with the RMR and tell them they would be ready to go in two hours, and tell the other group to expect 4-6 months and measure the results from both groups.

Bill tells me that he will have very special holsters for the Glock and M&P with an RMR at SHOT.

JHC
11-24-2011, 09:28 PM
Well my short experiment a few years back said definitely slower to first shot in dynamic shooter moving scenarios and a few very accomplished shooters moving to RDS and promoting them have acknowledged this challenge, and Bill Rogers says, nope, not an issue, that's all BS. Hmmmmmm. I saw it. IT wasn't BS. It just was what it was. RDS is going to sort out a solid place in the sun, clearly. It's got a lot of advantages. Does it have all advantages for everything? I don't know for certain. Gabe Suarez argues the same; that RDS is superior for all.

JodyH
11-24-2011, 09:55 PM
I'm pretty sure I could transition to a RDS quickly from a "stand and deliver" shooting position.
I think the hard part would be catching the red dot quickly from compromised positions or while on the move.
If a H&K P30 slide could be milled for a RDS I might give one a try.

YVK
11-24-2011, 10:21 PM
If a H&K P30 slide could be milled for a RDS I might give one a try.

I don't think it is a great idea, even if it is technically feasible. Having seen GJM shoot, shooting RDS myself a little, and reading all I can find about it, RDS shooting is about excellent indexing. With present-pause-press presentation, you can't [or, at least, you should not] start working the trigger until you see sight over target, which is after, or almost after, the extension is complete. Pistols with long trigger pull will always be at disadvantage in present-pause-press presentation; that's why pressout was invented to begin with. I think RDS will not happen on TDA/LEM guns and will be confined to Glocks/MPs/1911 and other pistols with short trigger pull.

I think the difference in presentation mode accounts for most of variability in people's experience with RDS. Advanced shooters who have excellent index will likely adjust to it fast and will have great results, especially if their recoil management techniques are good enough not to let the dot out of visual field. On the other hand, shooters that rely on pressout for presentation will not like RDS since with pressout you don't see a dot until you're fully extended.

If you've not tried it, find somebody's else RDS-equipped pistol to shoot before messing with P30. As a P30 shooter who also has an RDS-mounted Glock, I personally would not put an optic on TDA/LEM gun, unless you're going to be presenting with pressout off irons (which to me defeats the whole RDS thing).

GJM
11-24-2011, 10:30 PM
Jody, on the move the RDS is much easier than iron sights -- free style, or either hand.

The key for me is not to look to the middle of the RMR, but rather to draw to the iron sights at the bottom of the optic, and I find the dot before the irons. Awkward positions, that I have tried, also work by drawing to the irons/bottom of the RMR.

Tonight, I did some dry drills in the pitch dark, and initially I struggled without being able to see the rear of the slide to index to. With any light, weapon or ambient, I got the dot. With some practice, I am OK in the complete dark, free style, or dominant hand, but still fiddling support hand. A laser would certainly be a support for low light, and/or possibly tritium in the iron sights.

The RDS certainly shows up any imperfections in your draw stroke!

I think you ought to just mount an RMR on one of your Glocks and start experimenting, whether with a current gen RMR or the next iteration, this is the future and you need to get with the program.