View Full Version : CA Friendly / AIWB Friendly Gun
Legislation is making its way through the CA legislature banning the mere possession of magazines that hold more than 10 rounds. I currently carry and shoot primarily Glocks. I have no real experience with 10 round magazines but haven't heard great things about them. If they are good to go I may just stock up on 10 rounders and use a gadget for AIWB use.
However I've also been pondering a move to a hammer fired gun. Again, because CA laws I'm limited to what I can buy new from a store and I can't get the newer released models (as opposed to older models that are fresh from the factory) of Sigs or the HK P30 series unless I pay, search and wait to find a used gun priced 300-500 over MSRP. Since regular citizens also can't buy new, the search can be long.
With Sigs, the classic guns must come with an unnecessary mag disconnect and a LCI. If I were to go with Sig I'd probably want to buy a slide kit from Sig to get rid of the LCI. Are the newly made guns from Sig good to go? I'm leaning towards waiting and overpaying for a couple of more P30s or just go to the local shop and pick up a few P2000s.
Any recommendations for a hammer fired gun in 9mm that is reliable with 10 round magazines? Would prefer a good trigger and HD sights but since my options are so limited I can learn to live without.
Handy
06-19-2016, 12:29 PM
Are you considering subcompacts with pinky extension base plates? I don't know what that would open you up to in CA (P30SK, P2000SK, etc), but purpose built 10 round guns seem to have reliable mags.
Nephrology
06-19-2016, 12:34 PM
I would personally move to the new SIG P225 +/- a SIG P239.
Almost unlimited options -- P239, P225, P220, HK P2000sk, P30SK, HK45, HK45C, USP C 45, 9 or 45 1911 five inch or Commander models.
Or, you could cut one 19 to take 26 magazines, plus try some of the better followers in your 19 magazines in your 19, and carry on.
DocGKR
06-19-2016, 01:02 PM
We've tried "better" followers in 10 rd G17 and G19 mags--none have proven 100% reliable.
Handy
06-19-2016, 01:10 PM
Kind of a shame that no one makes 9 round 9mm single stacks anymore. But I'd rather have a functional 239 with 8+1 than a questionable 10+1.
RevolverRob
06-19-2016, 01:12 PM
If I wanted a 10-round autoloader. I would go to the HK45C, M&P45, Glock 30SF. The 9mm alternatives I would consider are all single-stack guns (e.g., various flavors of Kahr). ETA: If you are allowed to CC. I would go Kahr. A T9/TP9/CT9 sized gun (8+1) and a CM9/MK9/PM9 sub-compact (6+1) as the deeper concealed option. Consider them a replacement for the G19/G26 combination.
Have you taken a look at the Walther PPS? 6,7,or 8 roung magazines for the M1 PPS. The PPS also has a built in "gadget" with its exposed striker indicator. Either the PPS or Glock 26/19 cut to accept 26 magazines would be my choice in your position.
While I appreciate these suggestions the biggest hurdle is that unless the gun is on this stupid list a regular citizen can't buy them new in California.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
Would an OEM 15/17-round magazine with one of those block things permanently installed work better than an OEM 10-round magazine? I've seen companies offer then both for the OEM Glock mags as well as the Magpul variants.
Additionally, ETS makes dedicated 10-round mags that look to follow the same concept (same mag as the full capacity, just with a block in place). I haven't heard anything good or bad about the 10-rounders themselves, but some here claim to have had good results with the other ETS mags and at least one person here claims to be carrying one full-time.
M2CattleCo
06-19-2016, 04:19 PM
I would recommend to carry what's reliable and what your comfortable with. Your 10 round mags are gonna be illegal too....
john c
06-19-2016, 04:49 PM
I had a thread going a while back on a similar issue. With your Glocks, go for a mag block in your full cap magazines. Secondarily, there are many great guns on the roster, some of which don't mandate mag disconnects or LCIs. Look at Beretta 92s and PX4 compacts; HK 2000s and USP compacts and fullsize; a slew of high end 1911s. Your idea for picking up a Sig and replacing the slide is sound, but unless it was a P239 I'd consider one of the other options.
Good luck!
While I appreciate these suggestions the biggest hurdle is that unless the gun is on this stupid list a regular citizen can't buy them new in California.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
Wow no gen 4 glocks allowed. I'm really sorry. That's terrible.
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PD Sgt.
06-19-2016, 04:58 PM
I would look at the HK P2000. The V3 (DA/SA hammer fired) or V2 LEM both appear to be on the list. The trigger can be cleaned up by simple spring replacements, HD sights are about the best option available, and in my understanding the HK 10 round mags are extremely reliable. It is virtually identical in size to a G19.
The SK version is standard with 10 rounds. It would be a good addition to the full size if you can CC where you are.
Nephrology
06-19-2016, 05:16 PM
While I appreciate these suggestions the biggest hurdle is that unless the gun is on this stupid list a regular citizen can't buy them new in California.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
The P239 is most definitely on that list.
if you don't want the SIG because of concerns re: the slide, I'd look at H&Ks - especially .45 caliber models. I'd probably buy the .45 for carry and a similarly sized model for range time in 9mm.
Another option to look into is the various CZ compacts. All of CZ USA models are on the roster (RAMI, CZ 75D/PCR, P0-1) in CA legal versions w/10 round mags. I believe they all have LCI's but it's unobtrusive in the CZ's. If I lived in a county that would issue CCW's and I wanted to carry AIWB, a PCR or P0-1 would be my choice and I am mainly a Glock shooter but also love the ergo's and shootability of CZ's.
Would an OEM 15/17-round magazine with one of those block things permanently installed work better than an OEM 10-round magazine?
Yes, much better. The 10-round factory Glock mags run FMJ bullets well, but are relatively unreliable for hollowpoint ammunition. Personally all my training mags are factory 10 rounders and my self defense mags are permanently riveted 10/17 or 10/15 magazines
Savage Hands
06-19-2016, 08:45 PM
Have your Brother make a 19 cut to fit 26 mags like I'm most likely going to do since the 26 mags are supposedly reliable.
Xrslug
06-19-2016, 09:10 PM
Also keep in mind that used "off roster" guns are plentiful in CA, including HK45, HK45c, VP9, Gen 4 Glocks including G43, etc. basically you can find most any recent poduction handgun. Yes there is usually a premium but you can get the gun you want. These are legal to buy in a "face to face" transaction with the seller at a CA FFL -- they just can't be shipped. Although the laws are draconian there is a very large and active gun owning population in CA. Check the Marketplace section of Calguns.net if you haven't already.
Savage Hands
06-19-2016, 09:38 PM
Oh he knows Xrs lol
RevolverRob
06-19-2016, 09:57 PM
While I appreciate these suggestions the biggest hurdle is that unless the gun is on this stupid list a regular citizen can't buy them new in California.
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/
That list sucks.
Four words. Three-Fifty-Seven-Magnum.
If I were in your situation, I'd go grab a TRR8 for the house, a 327 Snub for CC, and an airweight J-Frame for deeper carry.
exuberant
06-19-2016, 10:40 PM
Fellow Californian here. On roster, I would recommend the P2000/SK, USP series, and the SIG options, such as the P239, P226, SP2022. I've had problems with the neutered 10 round magazines for Glock pistols, but there's workarounds for that issue (replacing followers, or buying/creating blocked mags). If you're into 9mm 1911s, the only two options we have here are the somewhat discontinued 9mm loaded stainless 1911s from Springfield Armory, and the Stainless Target II from Kimber. I've had great luck with a P2000 9mm with a 10lb mainspring, Trijicon HDs and the factory 10 round magazines.
Nephrology
06-20-2016, 06:05 AM
That list sucks.
Four words. Three-Fifty-Seven-Magnum.
If I were in your situation, I'd go grab a TRR8 for the house, a 327 Snub for CC, and an airweight J-Frame for deeper carry.
Even though I only own S&W revolvers (for now), if I was buying into wheelguns for self protection I would invest in Rugers. Cheaper, retard-strong construction, no frame lock. I'd get a pair of GP100s, an SP101 and an LCR and call it a day. They even still make 3" GP100s - besides the Wiley Clapp, you can also get a 3" fixed sight .357 or a 3" adjustable sight. 38 SPL. I'd be happy with any of those 3.
edit: Also, to be honest, depending on the OP's financial means and/or interest in the platform, I would look into moving into 1911s. They are a tinkerer's gun for sure - which honestly for me sounds like fun , though potentially expensive. Still, that would be other route I would consider were I in his shoes.
Casual Friday
06-20-2016, 10:28 AM
If I were limited to 10 round magazines I would go with a P2000 and 10 round mags versus carrying something smaller with a natural capacity of 10, after vetting the reliability of the neutered mags of course.
M2CattleCo
06-20-2016, 10:31 PM
I'd carry a P239 since that's what I carry in Texas.
But seriously? How do you get caught with a 15 round mag in the first place? What are you going to do when they limit you to 7, or 5, or 6 rounds? I'd really consider if it was worthwhile to follow a law that was detrimental to my personal safety.
OnionsAndDragons
06-20-2016, 11:05 PM
P2000 or G26 if you are stuck on 9mm. G19 cut for 26 mags would be great too. The HK and G26 mags are solid. The SIG P239 shoots above its size, and would be my choice if you don't want a plastic blaster.
HK45 would be a lovely choice. Rock solid, big BBs.
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I'd carry a P239 since that's what I carry in Texas.
But seriously? How do you get caught with a 15 round mag in the first place? What are you going to do when they limit you to 7, or 5, or 6 rounds? I'd really consider if it was worthwhile to follow a law that was detrimental to my personal safety.
Self defense often requires innocence -- that the party using force not be committing a crime themselves. In my state, for example, I lose my right to self defense simply by carrying my gun past a "no guns" sign (a class A misdemeanor). Thus, it may not be a wise idea to shoot somebody using an item you know to be contraband.
Are you considering subcompacts with pinky extension base plates? I don't know what that would open you up to in CA (P30SK, P2000SK, etc), but purpose built 10 round guns seem to have reliable mags.
The P2000SK may work for a deep concealment option, but I'd prefer at least a G19 sized.
Also keep in mind that used "off roster" guns are plentiful in CA, including HK45, HK45c, VP9, Gen 4 Glocks including G43, etc. basically you can find most any recent poduction handgun. Yes there is usually a premium but you can get the gun you want. These are legal to buy in a "face to face" transaction with the seller at a CA FFL -- they just can't be shipped. Although the laws are draconian there is a very large and active gun owning population in CA. Check the Marketplace section of Calguns.net if you haven't already.
The marketplace and I are best friends! :)
It's not being able to get off roster stuff it's dealing with the search and the prices that gets annoying. One p30? No problem. Getting a few so I have backups and a range gun? That's a huge pain.
I've had great luck with a P2000 9mm with a 10lb mainspring, Trijicon HDs and the factory 10 round magazines.
V2 or V3?
What is the trigger weight?
This sounds like a good option since I don't want to deal with guns not working out of the box right now.
I'd carry a P239 since that's what I carry in Texas.
But seriously? How do you get caught with a 15 round mag in the first place? What are you going to do when they limit you to 7, or 5, or 6 rounds? I'd really consider if it was worthwhile to follow a law that was detrimental to my personal safety.
I have a duty to inform. It'll be fast between when I inform and my mags are looked at.
Casual Friday
06-21-2016, 01:58 PM
I'd carry a P239 since that's what I carry in Texas.
But seriously? How do you get caught with a 15 round mag in the first place? What are you going to do when they limit you to 7, or 5, or 6 rounds? I'd really consider if it was worthwhile to follow a law that was detrimental to my personal safety.
Some people are in positions where getting pinched for a firearm related crime would mean their career and way of life as they know it is over, probably isn't that way in the cattle business but I could be wrong.
Some people are in positions where getting pinched for a firearm related crime would mean their career and way of life as they know it is over, probably isn't that way in the cattle business but I could be wrong.
Yeah, getting the CA bar involved isn't my idea of a good time.
Josh Runkle
06-21-2016, 03:20 PM
You're gonna hate me, but I'm gonna say it:
No job or family roots or friends are worth living in a bankrupt, repressive State that hates its citizens. That State hates people like you and I and we have targets on our back. It's just a matter of time until they find the right "evidence" to do away with people like you and I. Do you really want your kids to be forced between either thinking like the State of CA does, or being targeted by that State because they think like you do?
I totally understand things like driving through, or visiting family on vacation, but there simply aren't good reasons to live somewhere where "you" rather than criminals, are the enemy.
Handy
06-21-2016, 04:36 PM
You're gonna hate me, but I'm gonna say it:
No job or family roots or friends are worth living in a bankrupt, repressive State that hates its citizens. That State hates people like you and I and we have targets on our back. It's just a matter of time until they find the right "evidence" to do away with people like you and I. Do you really want your kids to be forced between either thinking like the State of CA does, or being targeted by that State because they think like you do?
I totally understand things like driving through, or visiting family on vacation, but there simply aren't good reasons to live somewhere where "you" rather than criminals, are the enemy.
Clearly you don't surf.
Josh Runkle
06-21-2016, 04:45 PM
Clearly you don't surf.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/us/10surf.html?_r=0
Wondering Beard
06-21-2016, 05:16 PM
Clearly you don't surf.
I had to:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWW1FeT1EyQ
You're gonna hate me, but I'm gonna say it:
No job or family roots or friends are worth living in a bankrupt, repressive State that hates its citizens. That State hates people like you and I and we have targets on our back. It's just a matter of time until they find the right "evidence" to do away with people like you and I. Do you really want your kids to be forced between either thinking like the State of CA does, or being targeted by that State because they think like you do?
I totally understand things like driving through, or visiting family on vacation, but there simply aren't good reasons to live somewhere where "you" rather than criminals, are the enemy.
I certainly agree in principle with what you are saying but reality is a little more complicated than that. But really, this discussion is irrelevant to what gun I can carry out and about when this law passes.
Josh Runkle
06-22-2016, 12:21 PM
I certainly agree in principle with what you are saying but reality is a little more complicated than that. But really, this discussion is irrelevant to what gun I can carry out and about when this law passes.
The relevant portion was the:
Why worry about what gun you can take out and about, if one day YOU won't be allowed out and about?
Handy
06-22-2016, 12:42 PM
The relevant portion was the:
Why worry about what gun you can take out and about, if one day YOU won't be allowed out and about?
CA may have more restrictive gun laws than anywhere else - in the US. But it is still in the US and subject to the same Supreme Court, Constitution, etc. CA is not about to and could not become a North Korea.
I appreciate your emotion and sentiment, but CA is not the gulag and OH is not a Heinlein utopia. These issues will always be in flux and some places will always have more restrictions on one issue or another, but they all still fall under US law.
I may no longer be able to buy a gun without a background check since I moved to WA, but I no longer live someplace where the state says I can't buy beer at 2:00 AM, so I'm not sure if I really feel less "free".
I hope the OP is getting some good, relevant suggestions for his dilemma. Navigating both the list, pricing and availability sounds like a pain. But not an impossibility.
Savage Hands
06-22-2016, 01:27 PM
The relevant portion was the:
Why worry about what gun you can take out and about, if one day YOU won't be allowed out and about?
We got it, now can we continue the discussion about what Handgun may work for him?
ScotchMan
06-22-2016, 03:17 PM
Have lived in New York for my entire shooting life (plans to move to NC in the next year though!). As of a few years ago >10 round magazines have all been felonies so I consider myself well-versed in this subject.
I started out shooting and carrying guns that were designed to feed from 10 round magazines. The P2000sk in LEM had a long and excellent run with me with no issues. I carried a PPS for a long time as well with similar results. I started looking into larger guns for shootability reasons, and discovered I could conceal them just as well. Since then, I have carried a PPQ, two different PX4s, and a Glock 19 Gen4. I also have experience with Sigs, Rugers, and others.
The *only* 10 round magazine I've ever had an issue with is Glock's, and that was attributed to the follower. Glock found that if you tried really hard in some cases you could fit an 11th round in their 10 round magazines with the 9mm3 follower, so they hastily developed a new follower that changes the angle of the top round causing occasional feeding issues especially on the last round in the mag. I swapped all of my followers for 9mm3 and never had an issue since, and I've heard this same story for a lot of other Glock users in my area.
If you want a subcompact or single stack anyway, I would strongly encourage you to look into a Glock 26, P2000sk, Sig P239, Walther PPS, etc etc. However if you are only going to those guns because of the 10 round limit, based on my experience it is worth it to go with the same larger gun you would have, and just test your magazines (like you would/should even if they were standard capacity). In all likelihood they will work and the benefits to your shooting are worthwhile.
The other direction people tend to go is to size up in caliber. "If I'm only going to have 10 rounds, I want them to be as big as possible." I generally reject that notion for myself, because I think I shoot 9mm enough better than .45 to justify the negligible improvement in terminal ballistics (and I have no interest in owning or shooting a .40). But that is another approach if you feel the benefits justify the cost to your shooting and wallet. I have been lusting after a HK45c for years (have a full-size already) for this reason. Also of note, the M&P45c is oddly the perfect size for a CC handgun in my opinion, almost exactly G19 sized, and feeds from an 8 round magazine.
exuberant
06-22-2016, 07:46 PM
V2 or V3?
What is the trigger weight?
This sounds like a good option since I don't want to deal with guns not working out of the box right now.
V3. I don't have a trigger pull gauge but people on HKPro state that the 10lb mainspring brings the DA pull to about 8.5lb and the single to 4.5lb or so. I've never tried LEM but may convert my P2000 to try it out sometime. The DA/SA triggers on HK's are ok at best, mostly due to the long reset. I'm not picky with triggers, and the DA V3 trigger doesn't stack and is pretty smooth (although a bit spongy). You'll find that the LEM trigger is favored over HK's DA/SA models here.
bornandraisedlv
06-23-2016, 04:45 PM
OP - drive to Vegas where we have plenty of fair prices for face to face purchase. Or if your up north head into Reno, plenty of good deals up there too.
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Savage Hands
06-23-2016, 05:11 PM
OP - drive to Vegas where we have plenty of fair prices for face to face purchase. Or if your up north head into Reno, plenty of good deals up there too.
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Unfortunately that is illegal...
bornandraisedlv
06-23-2016, 05:20 PM
Unfortunately that is illegal...
That is unfortunate...
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Handy
06-23-2016, 05:47 PM
That is unfortunate...
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For everybody, not just CA residents. You can't interstate FTF purchase firearms.
OP - drive to Vegas where we have plenty of fair prices for face to face purchase. Or if your up north head into Reno, plenty of good deals up there too.
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Do you work in the CADOJ by chance?
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