.380 defensive ammo

[VolGrad]

Without a discussion of "don't carry a .380acp" please point me to a thread with .380acp ammo test data and recommendations. I tried to send Doc a PM but it wouldn't go through.

I found this ...
http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#380ACP

I previously have carried Speer 90gr Gold Dots or Winchester 102gr Golden Sabers. I just trying to see if either of these would be preferred over the other or if I should look at something else. Both of these have fed reliably with good accuracy in a LCP and G42.

Looking at LG's data I'm thinking I should give Hornady 90 gr FTX Critical Defense a look.

I find it very difficult (due to ignorance) to balance penetration, expansion, and muzzle velocity.

[nycnoob]

Without a discussion of "don't carry a .380acp" please point me to a thread with .380acp ammo test data and recommendations. I tried to send Doc a PM but it wouldn't go through.


BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp)




Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them.

[VolGrad]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4336-BUG-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp

I saw that. It didn't have any test data or recs other than "don't carry a .380acp for LE use".

I really did try to find a thread before asking. :p

Maybe the better question would be .... "If you were reading LG's test data which of the .380acp options (attempting to balance penetration, expansion, and velocity) would you choose?"

[ST911]

Some good stuff in here, OP.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16269-380-ACP-FMJ-vs-XTP

Short list in no particular order: XTP, Critical Defense, Hydra-Shok, ball.

I like the XTP and CD for feed reliability.

[VolGrad]

Some good stuff in here, OP.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16269-380-ACP-FMJ-vs-XTP

Short list in no particular order: XTP, Critical Defense, Hydra-Shok, ball.

I like the XTP and CD for feed reliability.

Thank you. That is a good thread. I didn't find it. Almost makes me want to abandon JHP altogether and stick with the small stockpile of Black Hills FMJ I have on hand.

Please keep the input coming. Yes, I do understand the weakness of the .380acp but there are times when I drop a G42 or LCP Custom in my pocket or on my ankle.

My primary carry is a G43.

[TGS]

Thank you. That is a good thread. I didn't find it. Almost makes me want to abandon JHP altogether and stick with the small stockpile of Black Hills FMJ I have on hand.

Please keep the input coming. Yes, I do understand the weakness of the .380acp but there are times when I drop a G42 or LCP Custom in my pocket or on my ankle.

My primary carry is a G43.

I still have my beloved Micro Eagle. Can't carry it for work, but hey, I'm not selling it either.

I bounced back and forth between HydraShok and Buffalo Bore flat point ammo. The HydraShok in 380, from everything I've read, will either expand minimally in the .44-.48" range and penetrate 12", or not expand at all and penetrate about the same as a FMJ. IMO, it's not a bad choice for 380 if you don't trust the quality of the various FMJ loads out there.

It's been kept loaded up with Buffalo Bore FMJ-FP as a stash gun in the house for the majority of the past two years. I very rarely have carried it on its own, especially now that I have a Racaza 5-0 holster and can carry a service-grade weapon in clothes that I'd previously just carry the 380.

[DocGKR]

So, you are out at the school, stadium, mall, hospital, club, etc... and a jihadist comes in with a rifle and starts shooting like recently has occurred in CA and FL; do you want to have a G43 or a G19?

It is always best to avoid any confrontation which might involve the use of lethal force--in those times a .380 is probably fine; however, the whole reason most dialed-in folks carry a handgun are for when unexpected situations explode in their face and there are literally no other options than fight or someone will die. In such circumstances, something more effective than .380 is comforting. With judicious clothing selection, I am quite able to carry a G19, M&P, or 1911 in virtually any setting, including hiking, rock climbing, bicycling, equestrian events, as well as in formal attire, business suits, work garb, casual clothing, and even at the beach in a swim suit and T-shirt. There are few situations I can envision being unable to carry anything but a small .380 instead of a more effective handgun.

[VolGrad]

I kind of knew this thread would end this way. I should have just looked at the LG data and moved on. I had hoped for some help interpreting or in my mind balancing the aforementioned factors - penetration, expansion, and muzzle velocity. Sorry for the lame thread. I'll figure it out myself.

... and my apologies for calling Remington Golden Sabers Winchester Golden Sabers. I mistyped.

Mods - might as well nuke it.

[BehindBlueI's]

.380 fmj will over penetrate if it doesn't strike bone. I've seen some fatties with one zinged completely through their abdomen. Large bones, such as the femur, break but effectively stop the FMJ. I don't see a lot of HP .380 shootings so don't really have anything to add there from a "done seen it" perspective.

Personally, I would be tempted to just go with FMJ. Expansion isn't much good without penetration. I don't keep up with .380 as I don't own one, but would need some convincing that a expanding bullet that hit a rib would have enough oomph left to get to vitals.

[VolGrad]

I keep going back to the LG chart and an curious of folk's thoughts on the Pow'RBall 70gr. I agree expansion might not mean as much in the .380 as penetration (and of course 100% feeding reliability). But where does velocity come in to play? How many fps is considered adequate?

[BehindBlueI's]

I keep going back to the LG chart and an curious of folk's thoughts on the Pow'RBall 70gr. I agree expansion might not mean as much in the .380 as penetration (and of course 100% feeding reliability). But where does velocity come in to play? How many fps is considered adequate?

Velocity? It doesn't. None will approach the point where speed increases wounding.

Really, getting the bullet into vitals, including those shielded by bone, is what matters. How it does it is irrelevant. 70gr strikes me as very light to do well vs bone, but that's speculation only.

[nycnoob]

I kind of knew this thread would end this way. I should have just looked at the LG data and moved on. I had hoped for some help interpreting or in my mind balancing the aforementioned factors - penetration, expansion, and muzzle velocity.

[. . . ]

I agree expansion might not mean as much in the .380 as penetration (and of course 100% feeding reliability). But where does velocity come in to play? How many fps is considered adequate?


I am certainly no expert but I did read a few of the wound ballistic books Doc recommends. The wound model is simple, they are just measuring the volume of the hole.

(Book: Bullet Penetration Ducan MacPherson P87 "Analytical Modeling of Bullet Penetration")

So what is the trade off of penetration to expansion? They are treated equally since wider and shorter is similar to narrow and longer.

Velocity does not factor into it at all so there is no trade-off.

"How many fps is considered adequate?" once again wrong question. Traditionally the ballistics people do not even agree if they should use energy or momentum as a measure, in Docs writings he says neither matters he just looks at the gelatin since well designed ammo will work with vastly different metrics he does not have much stock in the number only the results.

I posted the quote from Doc above because it is my understanding he views his ammo tests as a mostly pass/fail sort of test. You are asking him for the best ammo that failed. I can not imagine that he has an answer for that. His previous answer was to not use the failure ammo but to use waddcutter ammo.

If you read the books you will see that of all the ammo shapes waddcutter will make a larger diameter hole then the bullet caliber, so in fact you can see doc is again going back to the model of "volume of the hole" matters and he picks something which penetrates deep but makes a wide hole.

I am not trying to be snarky here but I think you are missing the point. Your question has been answered but you are just thinking about this all wrong. Doc is looking first for something which penetrates deep then for something which expands to a wider (and wadcutter like) diameter if it does not meet the requirements then he does not recommend it.

[JHC]

Thank you. That is a good thread. I didn't find it. Almost makes me want to abandon JHP altogether and stick with the small stockpile of Black Hills FMJ I have on hand.

Please keep the input coming. Yes, I do understand the weakness of the .380acp but there are times when I drop a G42 or LCP Custom in my pocket or on my ankle.

My primary carry is a G43.

I only load good quality ball in my G42. I just want a reliable deep ice pick by the time I get to the 42.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Personally, I would be tempted to just go with FMJ. Expansion isn't much good without penetration. I don't keep up with .380 as I don't own one, but would need some convincing that a expanding bullet that hit a rib would have enough oomph left to get to vitals.


My caveat on that is that the manufacturers' QC on their premium lines (Critical Defense/Gold Dot/ etc.) is going to be better than their target/plinking lines. I'm not aware of any premium FMJ lines out there.

In the Hornady offerings, while the XTP projectile ought to work better than the FTX, it is only available in the brass-cased Custom and American Gunner lines. My gut feeling is that the nickeled cases of the CD lines offers slightly better odds for reliable feeding and extraction, in the little guns, and I'm willing to trade a little penetration for reliability. Plus, I just about have to find and order XTP, while I can easily find Critical Defense nearly any place that sells .380 ammo over the counter.

[VolGrad]

I only load good quality ball in my G42. I just want a reliable deep ice pick by the time I get to the 42.

So let's take that one a bit further. What is a good quality ball ammo choice? I only see cheap range ammo on the shelves and don't know what to look for online as I have never looked for "good" ball ammo.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I think we just typed past each other.

[BehindBlueI's]

So let's take that one a bit further. What is a good quality ball ammo choice? I only see cheap range ammo on the shelves and don't know what to look for online as I have never looked for "good" ball ammo.

S&B worked well for me when I had a .380. It ran reliably in my future ex-wife's Bersa Thunder. A buddy of mine carried a PPK and we used to buy bulk orders from Natchez. My dad currently uses a surplus Makarov and S&B has worked fine for him as well. I've not chrono'd it myself, but common wisdom is it's a bit hotter than most target loads. Run a few hundred rounds through your gun and see if it feeds reliably for you, but I'd be really surprised if it doesn't.

[texasaggie2005]

So, you are out at the school, stadium, mall, hospital, club, etc... and a jihadist comes in with a rifle and starts shooting like recently has occurred in CA and FL; do you want to have a G43 or a G19?

It is always best to avoid any confrontation which might involve the use of lethal force--in those times a .380 is probably fine; however, the whole reason most dialed-in folks carry a handgun are for when unexpected situations explode in their face and there are literally no other options than fight or someone will die. In such circumstances, something more effective than .380 is comforting. With judicious clothing selection, I am quite able to carry a G19, M&P, or 1911 in virtually any setting, including hiking, rock climbing, bicycling, equestrian events, as well as in formal attire, business suits, work garb, casual clothing, and even at the beach in a swim suit and T-shirt. There are few situations I can envision being unable to carry anything but a small .380 instead of a more effective handgun.


Respectfully,

Get a bigger gun isn't always the only answer. Could we get some guidance for those people who;

a) are not dialed in...

b) looked at their individual life style and threat matrices, and determined that a .380 will solve 99.99% of any anticipated threat...

c) who have honestly tried to get an "approved" gun to work with their clothing, work environment, physical condition and "tactical mindset" but could never make it work well enough to their comfort and satisfaction...

d) those who really don't care about any of the above, but have chosen a .380 and are totally fine with that decision regardless of their knowledge of above points.

Example: I have a couple friends who have chosen to purchase and carry a .380 everyday. One literally chose a raspberry colored LCP simply because she liked the color and the gun store had a holster that fit her purse. She has zero desire about any details, and only asks for specifics; "what bullets do I buy?" Not my personal first choice when she asked me about concealed carry. But answering "get a bigger gun" is not productive and would only have her turn to other, possibly less reliable sources of information or fall victim to false marketing to help her make her choices.

Without some sort of guidance, it's difficult to steer somebody towards decent performing ammo, when there are five other kinds of JHP on the shelf we all know are junk.

[JHC]

So let's take that one a bit further. What is a good quality ball ammo choice? I only see cheap range ammo on the shelves and don't know what to look for online as I have never looked for "good" ball ammo.

Your Black Hills might be as good as it gets. I think (but don't KNOW) that GECO and Fiocchi are pretty good. I have a few mags loaded with the Winchester load that has the flat point. I've never had any of these fail to fire so . . . ?

I've run some of the Leheigh penetrator loads (just 40) just fine but not sure about spending hundreds on a proper vetting.

Does Speer Lawman line have a .380 load?

[TGS]

I only load good quality ball in my G42. I just want a reliable deep ice pick by the time I get to the 42.

Ditto.


My caveat on that is that the manufacturers' QC on their premium lines (Critical Defense/Gold Dot/ etc.) is going to be better than their target/plinking lines. I'm not aware of any premium FMJ lines out there.

In the Hornady offerings, while the XTP projectile ought to work better than the FTX, it is only available in the brass-cased Custom and American Gunner lines. My gut feeling is that the nickeled cases of the CD lines offers slightly better odds for reliable feeding and extraction, in the little guns, and I'm willing to trade a little penetration for reliability. Plus, I just about have to find and order XTP, while I can easily find Critical Defense nearly any place that sells .380 ammo over the counter.

I take exception with your assessment on quality FMJ.

I've never had a complaint with any of my ammo from Buffalo Bore. Similarly, I've found S&B and Fiocchi 380 (as well as their 9mm) to be of good quality.


Does Speer Lawman line have a .380 load?

Yes. Probably another solid choice.

GECO was also mentioned.....I don't know if I've fired their 380, but if they produce it to the same standards as their 9mm I'd just buy that and never look back (assuming it passed a function test in my specific piece).

[hufnagel]

This thread is relevant to my interests, as I have a lady friend who only carries .380 and is resistant to finding something with more grunt, due to the sizes of the firearms in question.
Her last visit (far too long ago) I convinced her to test fire her chosen defensive ammo choice (some flavor of JHP), and it jammed several times. Obviously I worry about her as she's not a Gun Gal at all.
Knowing what choices would be better for her to test for carry is important to me. As texasaggie alludes to, sometimes you can only work with what ya got, and at least having the best in that is better than the worst.

[ST911]

My caveat on that is that the manufacturers' QC on their premium lines (Critical Defense/Gold Dot/ etc.) is going to be better than their target/plinking lines. I'm not aware of any premium FMJ lines out there.



The BHA ball gets the same QC as the XTP. If choosing an FMJ load, that would be it.

[Shoresy]

VolGrad, if you haven't seen this yet, it's worth checking out...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts

[VolGrad]

Respectfully,
Get a bigger gun isn't always the only answer. Could we get some guidance for those people who;
a) are not dialed in...
b) looked at their individual life style and threat matrices, and determined that a .380 will solve 99.99% of any anticipated threat...
c) who have honestly tried to get an "approved" gun to work with their clothing, work environment, physical condition and "tactical mindset" but could never make it work well enough to their comfort and satisfaction...
d) those who really don't care about any of the above, but have chosen a .380 and are totally fine with that decision regardless of their knowledge of above points.
Example: I have a couple friends who have chosen to purchase and carry a .380 everyday. One literally chose a raspberry colored LCP simply because she liked the color and the gun store had a holster that fit her purse. She has zero desire about any details, and only asks for specifics; "what bullets do I buy?" Not my personal first choice when she asked me about concealed carry. But answering "get a bigger gun" is not productive and would only have her turn to other, possibly less reliable sources of information or fall victim to false marketing to help her make her choices.
Without some sort of guidance, it's difficult to steer somebody towards decent perforing ammo, when there are five other kinds of JHP on the shelf we all know are junk.
To expand on d) - folks like me that carry a caliber that is approved by the experts the vast majority of the time, are generally considered to be pretty dialed in, but still resort to a .380acp under very specific circumstances and might have even asked that their inquire thread not turn into a "don't carry a .380" discussion because they were actually seeking knowledge.

Your Black Hills might be as good as it gets.
After mentioning my BHA I realized they weren't ball after all but JHP. I had got a few hundred rounds at such a good deal a while back I remembered incorrectly to be ball. THAT's how much I shoot .380acp.

[DocGKR]

Quality vendor .380 FMJ--Black Hills, Gecco, Fiocchi, S&B, etc...

.380 JHP load using XTP bullets would also likely be OK if they feed and function in your pistol.

[MGW]

VolGrad when I went through this a couple years ago I settled on plain old Hydra Shok. It cycled really well through the 42 I had and was easy to find. The ballistic tests I could find online were pretty consistent. It would open pretty well in bare gel and get 10-12" of penetration. Through denim it tended to not open and get 13-18" of penetration. So it's a little shallow through bare jell but will get FMJ kind of penetration if it plugs. I'm perfectly okay with that.

I went over and over every round that was out there and nothing seemed to work better than Hydra Shok including FMJ. I found it to be soft shooting also and was regulated to the sights on the 42 I had.

[Duces Tecum]

The stopping ability of a .380 is dependent not on expansion, but on penetration and targeting, I'd think.

Why not buy a box of FMJ (for penetration) and a fresh pig's head as a target (available from Hispanic and Chinese markets, although it may have to be ordered). Tie a 20 ft string to one of the the pig's ears and walk in a circle around it, dragging your toe. That gives you a marked 7 yard (+/-) radius around the pig's head. Walk the circle, firing several rounds at various points all around the head. Examining the results will reveal whether or not a .380 FMJ will penetrate a skull, and where the penetration is best.

Repeat until satisfied.

You have now turned a sketchy "stopping" problem into a resolvable "accuracy" problem.

[littlejerry]

Your Black Hills might be as good as it gets. I think (but don't KNOW) that GECO and Fiocchi are pretty good. I have a few mags loaded with the Winchester load that has the flat point. I've never had any of these fail to fire so . . . ?

I've run some of the Leheigh penetrator loads (just 40) just fine but not sure about spending hundreds on a proper vetting.

Does Speer Lawman line have a .380 load?

Yes. I've fired 500 rounds of Lawman through my 42 with no issues.

It's currently loaded with XTPs. From the research I could find the XTPs were the "best of the worst" in terms of penetration. They don't expand much.

[Totem Polar]

Short list in no particular order: XTP, Critical Defense, Hydra-Shok, ball.


Yup, evidently. May as well throw in my own proclivities, Vol (note, not saying "do this", rather "this is what I do, for what it's worth...")

Ball: Winchester ball with the flat point used to be my go-to for ball. Now I just order from freedom munitions in bulk, since their 100gr ball comes with the same flattened profile, and winchester doesn't always--not anymore. Not sure it really matters, but there it is.

XTP loading: the same freedom munitions company loads the 90 gr XTP in both new and remanufactured iterations. Lewiston, ID raises some ammo-savvy kids. Their "new" XTP is my current go-to load, and I keep enough of the same lot of new "carry" ammo on hand to provide plenty of exemplar ammo for testing should the worst come to pass. Now, given that their reman is ballistically similar, I buy that in bulk to feed my .380s. Any .380 I'd ever give thought to toting has been verified reliable with plenty of both the FM 100 gr ball and, especially, FM's XTP. Right now that list includes pretty much just the G42 and my Sig P232, because; hipster, and I like the old school gat.

here ya go: https://www.freedommunitions.com/ammunition/pistol/380-auto.html

OMMV, but that's my take on .380. That all said, when I was wandering the car show yesterday with a crowd of thousands, the G43 was with me, not the 42. You and I are on the same page, methinks.

[Chuck Haggard]

LAPD's issued .380 BUG/off duty gun load is Speer Lawman, which they chose after extensive reliability testing in their approved .380s, if that helps.


My "I've tested it and I'd carry it" .380 ammo list includes Gold Dot, XTPs/Critical Defense, Lawman FMJs, Geco FMJ if it's made in Switzerland, Federal Hydrashock, Black Hills FMJ and their JHP since it has the XTP bullet loaded, and not much more than that.

The Golden Saber and the Winchester JHPs (even the bonded) expand too much and thus penetration sucks.

That 100gr Black Hills interests me since it seems to reliably yaw and thus limits penetration while still being sufficient for what we are looking for;

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/380-automatic/

[ST911]

Regarding XTP/CD, my recommendations are confined to the Hornady and BHA loadings only. No others.

[Velo Dog]

In case anyone was wondering about the Federal Micro HST...

http://www.ammoland.com/2015/07/federal-premiums-hst-380-auto-micro-ammo/#axzz4C51AMp24

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2015/04/federal-hst-9mm-and-380-auto-comparison.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhByLwyvGpA

Better than a rape whistle I guess, YMMV.

[41magfan]

Some actual velocity data from my Ruger LCP should it be relevant to your decision:

WWB 95 gr FMJ (FP) - 811 fps
Rem 88 gr JHP - 866 fps
Fed 90 gr HS - 879 fps
Hornady Critical Defense 90 gr FTX - 866 fps
Hornady Custom 90 gr XTP - 893 fps
Hornady American Gunner 90 gr XTP - 815 fps
Speer 90 gr GD - 931 fps
Corbon DPX 80 gr - 965 fps

[Velo Dog]

One of the problems with .380 Auto results is that the round is so inconsistent in performance.

It makes quite a difference whether a 3.25" barrel Glock 42 or a 2.5" barrel Kahr P380 is used.
It also matters more whether synthetic or organic gel is used for testing.
It also matters more what, if any, barriers are used.

The Critical Defense load looked good in the Lucky Gunner test...
http://www.luckygunner.com/hornady-380-acp-ammo-for-sale-380auto90ftxhornady-25#geltest
but, not so great in other tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQE0pRbtmO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAyUW7s4EJk&index=23&list=PLgNSGOEQko_MjOCGyqlMTiM2njdQQRbdg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtuT7XqF8V8&list=PLgNSGOEQko_Nx7Q-88jeEVd5JW9n791lA&index=3
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-realistic-9mm-vs-380-acp-test.html

[LtDave]

LAPD's issued .380 BUG/off duty gun load is Speer Lawman, which they chose after extensive reliability testing in their approved .380s, if that helps.


My "I've tested it and I'd carry it" .380 ammo list includes Gold Dot, XTPs/Critical Defense, Lawman FMJs, Geco FMJ if it's made in Switzerland, Federal Hydrashock, Black Hills FMJ and their JHP since it has the XTP bullet loaded, and not much more than that.

The Golden Saber and the Winchester JHPs (even the bonded) expand too much and thus penetration sucks.

That 100gr Black Hills interests me since it seems to reliably yaw and thus limits penetration while still being sufficient for what we are looking for;

http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/380-automatic/

AZ DPS also issues the Speer .380 Gold Dot for use in backup guns. Federal Hydrashok shoots really good for me in several guns with Hornady Critical Defense a close second.

[Hambo]

To expand on d) - folks like me that carry a caliber that is approved by the experts the vast majority of the time, are generally considered to be pretty dialed in, but still resort to a .380acp under very specific circumstances and might have even asked that their inquire thread not turn into a "don't carry a .380" discussion because they were actually seeking knowledge.

I rarely carry a .380, but when I do...it's loaded with Hornady CD. I ranked function, penetration, and availability as most important. Last time I bought .380 availability was the deciding factor.

[Clay]

FWIW - I did a bunch of my own testing and research a couple years back when I bought 2 LCP's for use in a NPE, i.e. for when I couldn't carry a real gun.

What I settled on was the Hornady XTP and Federal Hydra-Shok loads, with any of the European FMJ loads like Geco, PPU, S&B, and Magtech as a backup if I couldn't get the JHP's.

It would suck to rely on a LCP during a real serious problem, but it would suck worse to rely on a pocket knife.

BTW my LCP's have been great . The only time mine gets used any more is for around the house carry. My wife uses hers for NPE stuff. My NPE gun is normally a S&W 442 in an ankle rig.

Sent from my XT830C using Tapatalk

[VolGrad]

I'm going to place a bulk order for practice ammo. In ball any reason other than price to choose one of these over the other?

Speer Lawman
Geco (Hungary)
S&B

I'm putting the whole JHP on hold at the moment. I'll come back to that later.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm going to place a bulk order for practice ammo. In ball any reason other than price to choose one of these over the other?

Speer Lawman
Geco (Hungary)
S&B

I'm putting the whole JHP on hold at the moment. I'll come back to that later.

Assuming your gun isn't primer sensitive, none that I can think of. Well, if you keep ammo in its original carton the S&B is usually the smallest packaging so it takes up less space.

[VolGrad]

Assuming your gun isn't primer sensitive, none that I can think of. Well, if you keep ammo in its original carton the S&B is usually the smallest packaging so it takes up less space.
It isn't that I know of. I haven't had issues yet with a couple of different ammo varieties. I do keep in original boxes, easier to grab a box or two at a time. I was leaning toward the S&B already. It splits the difference in price and was already mentioned a couple of times in this thread.

[MGW]

I'm going to place a bulk order for practice ammo. In ball any reason other than price to choose one of these over the other?

Speer Lawman
Geco (Hungary)
S&B

I'm putting the whole JHP on hold at the moment. I'll come back to that later.

If it's truly just practice ammo I had no problems with 500 rounds of Freedom. I believe it was reman IIRC.

Just checked and its current,y out of stock. They were running 5% of sales every week or two for awhile. They usually stock back up pretty quickly.

[Clay]

This is good ammo at a great price -

http://www.sgammo.com/product/geco/1000-round-case-380-auto-95-grain-fmj-ammo-made-geco-hungary

[VolGrad]

This is good ammo at a great price -

http://www.sgammo.com/product/geco/1000-round-case-380-auto-95-grain-fmj-ammo-made-geco-hungary

That's the one I was looking at, same vendor too. I went to all my go-to bulk ammo suppliers and their prices overall seemed better than the rest. That one is $249/1000 whereas the S&B was $269 and the Lawman $299.

[Clay]

SGAmmo is excellent. I've been ordering from them for many years, and the Geco stuff has always been very good. Magtech and S&B (same company) is very good too, but not worth the $20 difference in my opinion.

[41magfan]

That's the one I was looking at, same vendor too. I went to all my go-to bulk ammo suppliers and their prices overall seemed better than the rest. That one is $249/1000 whereas the S&B was $269 and the Lawman $299.

I'm working on my second case of that stuff and it really shoots great in my LCP's.

They're both out of stock currently, but when they have it AIM sells it for $239.80 plus shipping and TargetSports sells it for $259.80 shipped free.

[LtDave]

Another good shooting ball round is the Italian Fiocchi 95 grain fmj. It is cannalured (sp?) to prevent bullet setback. Make sure you get the Italian and not the Hungarian stuff.

[ST911]

I'm going to place a bulk order for practice ammo. In ball any reason other than price to choose one of these over the other?

Speer Lawman
Geco (Hungary)
S&B

I'm putting the whole JHP on hold at the moment. I'll come back to that later.

CS support for both large and small Speer Lawman orders were fast, helpful, and CONUS. Would S&B or Geco be as well?

[VolGrad]

So I decided to look at the Black Hills 90gr JHP I have in the safe now - 100rds left after shooting a box yesterday. My novice GOOGLE says it's loaded with XTP bullets but the box nor the BHA site say that. I am a noob to bullet profile but can one tell by looking at the bullet if it's XTP? Again, probably a lame question for some of you pros on here but again I'm looking for knowledge and not ridicule.

[Clay]

XTP's are pretty easy to identify, and Black Hills used them a lot in the past.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hornady+xtp&rlz=1CAACAP_enUS655US656&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwivCDhrjNAhWk5IMKHRLNA2wQ_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=631#imgrc=D1B18h0ldysRrM%3A

[VolGrad]

XTP's are pretty easy to identify, and Black Hills used them a lot in the past.

https://www.google.com/search?q=hornady+xtp&rlz=1CAACAP_enUS655US656&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjwivCDhrjNAhWk5IMKHRLNA2wQ_AUICSgC&biw=1366&bih=631#imgrc=D1B18h0ldysRrM%3A

Yup, that's what it looks like. Man, I've burned up a few hundred rounds of that in a G42 and a couple of LCPs without realizing it was more of a premium ammo. I have had no issues with malfs or accuracy. In fact, I quite like it. I can't remember what I paid but it wasn't much when I bought in bulk a couple of years ago. I guess I have my carry load already now that I'm out of the Speer and Golden Sabers. BHA it is.

[Clay]

Old school cool. XTP's are extremely accurate and normally very feed friendly. I've killed the hell out of stuff with XTP's over the years and always get deep penetration and good expansion. The 147 grain XTP is awesome on deer in my experience. A buddy of mine hunts coyotes with the 115 gr XTP in a Marlin Camp Carbine. Neat stuff.

All the gel results I looked at with the .380 XTP showed it to be the best performer. I normally like deep penetration. Precision One does a good job loading the XTP as well as Hornady and Black Hills.

http://www.precisiononeammunition.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=1_2_37_42&zenid=le2fhgan8krd3lutu7ktd78po4

*I normally stick with the big 4 manufacturers for defensive ammo, but I sometimes compromise with niche guns and calibers. Caveat emptor and all that.

[Clay]

I keep going back to the LG chart and an curious of folk's thoughts on the Pow'RBall 70gr. I agree expansion might not mean as much in the .380 as penetration (and of course 100% feeding reliability). But where does velocity come in to play? How many fps is considered adequate?

I was one of the original field testers for the Pow'rball (free ammo!) which came out in .45 acp first. It was very reliable, feed-wise, especially in G.I. style 1911's. It always expands. Penetration in .45 was around 10-12" in gel. Powr'ball's weak point is penetration, in all calibers.

Cor-Bon's stuff has always been hit or miss for me, quality-wise. I wouldn't recommend it personally, especially considering the price. Just thought I'd throw my opinion out there.

[DocGKR]

Clay--good comments regarding Cor-Bon that match what we have found...

[Tamara]

Cor-Bon's stuff has always been hit or miss for me, quality-wise. I wouldn't recommend it personally, especially considering the price. Just thought I'd throw my opinion out there.

A friend who had worked briefly for a competitor had done some piezo testing of Cor-Bon and told me in all seriousness (this was 15 years ago) that he'd never carry their .38 Spl +P in any revolver that wasn't rated for .357 Magnum...

[Clay]

Ha! The first Cor-Bon stuff I bought was their version of the FBI load. It was a .357 load in a .38 case. Hot stuff. I was thinking about that last night.

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[DAVIDF]

VolGrad,

I also carry a 42 in certain circumstances where (at least I believe) I can't possibly carry something bigger.

The Speer Lawman .380 TMJ load is excellent. From chronograph testing I have seen, the extreme spread (ES) between highest and lowest velocity is on par with the best premium defense ammo. I've been using it and carrying it in my 42. It is perhaps the most accurate .380 load I have used.

I have also had very good results with Freedom Munitions XTP load. It is priced very reasonably and is the cheapest XTP load available commercially. It has been extremely accurate and reliable in all four of my wife's and my 42's. XTP loads sometimes don't feed well in all 42's. One of ours required a feed ramp polish for the load to become reliable in that particular pistol. Although, I have never seen any chronograph testing of this load, in my experience with several thousand of these rounds it seems very consistently loaded. I can highly recommend this load.

Freedom Munitions FMJ load has varied over the years in how warm it has been loaded. The first lot I purchased several years ago was very hot. The second lot was about on par with Speer Lawman. The last lot was weaker than the Speer. That lot also seemed to vary a bit with some rounds being very weak. Some rounds were not warm to eject empty cases even with the most firm grip. But, they are very accurate even with their inconsistency of loading. Perhaps I received a bad batch, but I could not recommend this load as anything other than a range load.

I would think that Black Hills XTP load or their FMJ load would be excellent as their quality control is perhaps the best.

Whatever you choose to carry, please test it thoroughly as .380's can be finicky even these excellent 42's.

[VolGrad]

Whatever you choose to carry, please test it thoroughly as .380's can be finicky even these excellent 42's.
Thanks for the info. I will be sure to test it on my next outing. I have fired a few already and don't recall any issues but another session isn't a bad idea.

[Drew78]

Like others have mentioned, I run Hornaday Custom xtp's in .380. When I go down to .380 I go small, like LCP small. They feed well and are quite accurate in my pistol out to about 50'. Just another data point for you...

[OlongJohnson]

Thread revival. I don't haunt the ammo section much, so I'm adding $0.02 a little late.

Freedom Munitions: There are very few companies I will publicly badmouth, but they are one. I know people who've had cases of ammo with all the symptoms of being undercharged. I know people who've gotten multiple recall notices for lots that were overcharged. I've inspected boxes of .357 in their Houston store where the cases were still expanded at the mouth, and had never been crimped after seating the bullet. There are several ways that can go very, very wrong, whether in a revolver or lever gun. I brought the condition to the attention of the employees, and was told there was nothing wrong. Sorry, I have done all the steps on my loading bench and know what it looks like at each step. I even opened a box of Hornady-branded loads to make sure I wasn't wrong. I wasn't. I spend most of my days about a mile and a half from their store, and will never buy their brand ammo.

With most of the micro-pistols having a 9mm variant, I don't see the need for the matching .380s unless recoil is a problem. But I got curious about a little ol' pizza gun awhile back and researched ammo. Ended up at the AmmoQuest videos, linked earlier in this thread. From that, plus my own further investigation, the complete list of projectiles to be relied upon in .380 is: 90gr XTP.

If you care enough, watch the AmmoQuest wrapup, then all the individual test videos. His commentary gets repetitive, so I usually skip to the measurements. In general, all the non-XTP burrets have 9mm-sized HP cavities. The tendency is that they expand out to 9mm-ish diameters, or they catch the denim and don't expand appropriately. Stretching and bending all that metal uses up a lot of energy, and there isn't very much to begin with, so there isn't enough momentum left to drive the expanded projectile very deep.

The XTP has a noticeably smaller HP cavity than any other .380 projectile I've inspected (I opened a box of everything in stock at the local Academy). It provides controlled expansion to slightly smaller diameters, and has enough momentum left to penetrate enough. Like any other HP, if it's going too slow, it won't expand reliably. As the speed goes way up, you start to see the cavities partially filling with denim. I hypothesize that this is also related to the HP diameter. Above a certain speed, the denim is cut, where it tends to tear and allow the HP to pass through without cutting a plug below that speed. A larger HP would be expected to begin cutting a plug at a lower speed.

The key to interpreting the several videos is to observe the results from the XTP as they relate to the various measured speeds. Once you put all that information in one place, a reasonable objective becomes fairly clear. Physics cares about speed, not the label on the box.

All this is just IMO. I'm not a dentist or anything.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Here's some updated 380 tests (among others):

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#conclusions

[Wayne Dobbs]

Here's some updated 380 tests (among others):

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/#conclusions

And this latest testing (BTW, not done with confirmable, repeatable, spec gel) shows us the same old story with the .380 Auto: if it expands adequately, it doesn't penetrate deeply enough and conversely, if it penetrates adequately, it doesn't expand adequately.

Chuck Haggard and I have talked about this quite a bit and we've both come to the conclusion that the best solution for this, although not a good one, is for somebody to make a duty grade load with a 95 grain flat pointed FMJ (think the WWB .380 projectile) at full power. The WWB is not duty grade and displays some serious QC issues at times. Such a load will penetrate deeply enough and the flat point will perhaps gain a bit of crush over round nose. There is only so much that can be done with this little cartridge and the physics limit it badly.

As Pat Rogers said so many times: TANSTAAFL ("There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch")

[Hauptmann]

The .380acp is a dead end cartridge. It lacks the ability to be loaded with longer bullets to increase sectional density, and thus have a deep penetrating JHP with decent expansion to meet the FBI standards.

The only way that you can have a smaller-than-9mm cartridge pass the FBI standards with decent JHP expansion is to reduce bullet diameter and increase operating pressure. Think a longer, 7-8mm handgun bullet in a .380acp length cartridge at 35k-40k psi. This would allow a manufacturer to use the same action and frame length as the .380acp, but with possibly a double column magazine wit the smaller diameter cartridge. For instance, a .30 caliber 95gr handgun bullet has the same sectional density as a 9mm 135gr bullet, and would have similar levels of expanded JHP penetration through FBI testing provided that the bullet velocity was over 1000fps.

[Wayne Dobbs]

The .380acp is a dead end cartridge. It lacks the ability to be loaded with longer bullets to increase sectional density, and thus have a deep penetrating JHP with decent expansion to meet the FBI standards.

Complete and utter truth, Hauptmann.

[Wondering Beard]

It lacks the ability to be loaded with longer bullets to increase sectional density,.

Wasn't there a 102gr Golden Saber in .380?

[Hauptmann]

Wasn't there a 102gr Golden Saber in .380?

Yep, but like all .380acp JHP it still penetrated under 10" in bare gel.

The .380 is the same bullet diameter as the 9mm. If you look at Dr. Robert's list of acceptable 9mm rounds that meet FBI standards, none of them are under 124gr for a standard lead core JHP bullet. That's because none of the JHPs on the market that weigh less than 124gr pass the test. The round that failed in the 1986 Miami shootout was a 115gr JHP. The few exceptions to this rule would be non-lead core bullets like the solid copper JHPs on Doc's list that are 115gr.......but these are very LONG bullets due to their decreased solid copper mass. The .380acp cannot go heavier or longer.......it's up shit creek without a paddle.

[Chuck Haggard]

I did note that the 100gr Hornady FMJ load they used to make was tested by he FBI in the original run of tests. It did surprisingly well across the board. Not always acceptable, but better than I expected.

I think a non-expanding solid copper HP with a wide meplat would be the way to go, it would cut on entry, tend to stick when it hit bone, penetrate more than enough, and would likely tend to yaw in tracks where penetration took it through a bunch of tissue.

[Hauptmann]

I did note that the 100gr Hornady FMJ load they used to make was tested by he FBI in the original run of tests. It did surprisingly well across the board. Not always acceptable, but better than I expected.

I think a non-expanding solid copper HP with a wide meplat would be the way to go, it would cut on entry, tend to stick when it hit bone, penetrate more than enough, and would likely tend to yaw in tracks where penetration took it through a bunch of tissue.

I guess in the grand scheme of things though, why use a solid .380 projectile when you could find a way to make 9mm or a .38spl in a reliable JHP work? Tamara's grandma pistol idea makes a valid argument if you need less recoil, but if it is low weight and small size you need, I found going jogging with a S&W M&P J-frame to be the perfect compromise.

[ST911]

Wayne and Chuck... If such a thing were offered, I would worry about the feed reliability of a short FP in .380. Especially in several particular micros you'd find it in.

[Velo Dog]

I suspect that even FMJ would have a very hard time consistently achieving 12 inches after the FBI steel and auto glass tests
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_.380ACP_80gr_TAC-XP.pdf

[Trooper224]

If I was going to carry a .380 (which is extremely unlikely) I think I'd stick with an fmj round, probably one of the european brands since they typically seem to be hotter than their american equivalents. This is excepting Corbon, which you couldn't give me for free. Penetration is all you have going for you with the .380, so I don't see sacrificing that with an HP load. I can't badmouth the OP for enquiring about the .380 as I lust for a Beretta Model 84, an older one with the rounded trigger guard. I'd never carry it but I think it's sexy as hell.

[41magfan]

I can't badmouth the OP for enquiring about the .380 as I lust for a Beretta Model 84, an older one with the rounded trigger guard. I'd never carry it but I think it's sexy as hell.

If it didn't have some sentimental value, I'd sell you one.


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320x240q90/540/aqlyTt.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0aqlyTtj)

[Chuck Haggard]

I guess in the grand scheme of things though, why use a solid .380 projectile when you could find a way to make 9mm or a .38spl in a reliable JHP work? Tamara's grandma pistol idea makes a valid argument if you need less recoil, but if it is low weight and small size you need, I found going jogging with a S&W M&P J-frame to be the perfect compromise.

The Glock 42, as an example, is much lighter than the 43, and recoils far less. It's also far easier to shoot well than the J frames IMHO. I think there is a niche for guns like that, and the LCP sized guns.

[tanner]

I think there is a niche for guns like that, and the LCP sized guns.

A gun for when you can't carry a gun.

Better than a pointed stick...

[VolGrad]

A gun for when you can't carry a gun.

Better than a pointed stick...

And even that's a valid reason IMO.

[Hambo]

I did note that the 100gr Hornady FMJ load they used to make was tested by he FBI in the original run of tests. It did surprisingly well across the board. Not always acceptable, but better than I expected.

I think a non-expanding solid copper HP with a wide meplat would be the way to go, it would cut on entry, tend to stick when it hit bone, penetrate more than enough, and would likely tend to yaw in tracks where penetration took it through a bunch of tissue.

This got me thinking about cast bullets, but the closest I could find is Lee's 95gr flat point.

http://leeprecision.com/mold-6-cav-tl356-95-rf.html

[tanner]

And even that's a valid reason IMO.

I own two LCPs myself for that exact scenario.

[Mitch]

The Glock 42, as an example, is much lighter than the 43, and recoils far less. It's also far easier to shoot well than the J frames IMHO. I think there is a niche for guns like that, and the LCP sized guns.

I've been thinking about back up guns for a couple weeks now, and I still don't know where I come down between Glock 42/43 and a 442 j frame. I think the honest answer is any gun in that class is a compromise, your preference will depend on what you value most and all 3 have their place.


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[Wayne Dobbs]

I suspect that even FMJ would have a very hard time consistently achieving 12 inches after the FBI steel and auto glass tests
http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf
https://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Ballistic_Gel_Experiments/BARNES/Barnes_.380ACP_80gr_TAC-XP.pdf

It's not even in the realm of reason to consider the .380 for steel and/or auto glass testing. I simply consider penetration in either the FBI Heavy Clothing Test or the more repeatable and better thought out four layers of denim IWBA test. And the only thing that will give adequate penetration in those tests on a regular basis is FMJ. Besides the stance of adequate penetration/no expansion and vice versa, my standard mantra on the .380 is that it only seems to work well on good guys (crime victims) and very rarely works well on turds. Doc Roberts has a story about the same gangster getting shot with .380 on two or three separate occasions in his area. This maggot recovered quite well every time.

[BehindBlueI's]

I've been thinking about back up guns for a couple weeks now, and I still don't know where I come down between Glock 42/43 and a 442 j frame. I think the honest answer is any gun in that class is a compromise, your preference will depend on what you value most and all 3 have their place.


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I've been carrying an LCR since the .357 version came out. I've been in the same conundrum as to if it's worth it to go to a 9mm semi-auto. I'm shooting the Glock 43 (that's the 9, right?) this evening to compare. I'm also considering the Shield.

[Duelist]

And even that's a valid reason IMO.

It's the only real reason I own my P32. Carried with euro ball, supposed to penetrate 15".

[Mitch]

I've been carrying an LCR since the .357 version came out. I've been in the same conundrum as to if it's worth it to go to a 9mm semi-auto. I'm shooting the Glock 43 (that's the 9, right?) this evening to compare. I'm also considering the Shield.

Post up your thoughts please, I still don't know where I'm coming down on this.

The more I think about it, if pocket carry is important it seems to me that the j frame is still king. Ankle carry...a small Glock may make sense.


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[Chuck Haggard]

I've been thinking about back up guns for a couple weeks now, and I still don't know where I come down between Glock 42/43 and a 442 j frame. I think the honest answer is any gun in that class is a compromise, your preference will depend on what you value most and all 3 have their place.


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For a BUG I'm using my 642s, they work better for what I need.

[Chuck Haggard]

It's not even in the realm of reason to consider the .380 for steel and/or auto glass testing. I simply consider penetration in either the FBI Heavy Clothing Test or the more repeatable and better thought out four layers of denim IWBA test. And the only thing that will give adequate penetration in those tests on a regular basis is FMJ. Besides the stance of adequate penetration/no expansion and vice versa, my standard mantra on the .380 is that it only seems to work well on good guys (crime victims) and very rarely works well on turds. Doc Roberts has a story about the same gangster getting shot with .380 on two or three separate occasions in his area. This maggot recovered quite well every time.

The flip side being that I have seen quite a few people shot DIRT with .380s and other small guns. A rather dramatic "one stop drop" we had on video involved a .32 ball round to the clerk's neck, bullet hit the C2, unfortunately. Fairbairn noted in "Shooting to Live" that the only one shot stop they saw in Shanghai was with a .380, with lots of failures of the .455 and .45acp with multiple hits on the bad guy. This past week locally we had a double murder/gang shooting, both vics DRT, murder weapon a Taurus .380

That bullet placement thing being a real issue....

[Mitch]

For a BUG I'm using my 642s, they work better for what I need.

I can easily see how that would be. I don't plan to carry a separate reload for a back up gun, so if a G26 won't fit, capacity is almost a wash between a 43 and a 642, and I'd rather put a 642 in my pocket for npes vs a 43.


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[Trooper224]

If it didn't have some sentimental value, I'd sell you one.


http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/320x240q90/540/aqlyTt.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/f0aqlyTtj)

Well, if you ever get over that emotional foolishness let me know. :)

[Chuck Haggard]

I can easily see how that would be. I don't plan to carry a separate reload for a back up gun, so if a G26 won't fit, capacity is almost a wash between a 43 and a 642, and I'd rather put a 642 in my pocket for npes vs a 43.


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For me it's the simple reason that none of the small semi-autos draw from a pocket like the 642 does, none. It's not even close.

Yes, with a G42/G43/PM9/etc I get more capacity, easier trigger, far faster reload speed, maybe even a more powerful round.... but none of that matters if I can't get the gun drawn. Forst shot hits from the pocket are far faster and far more sure with the Centennial style snubs.

For ankle carry the snubs, due to shape, conceal far better, and unless one goes to the G42, LCP, etc., the snubs are lighter to carry as well.

[LSP552]

For me it's the simple reason that none of the small semi-autos draw from a pocket like the 642 does, none. It's not even close.

Yes, with a G42/G43/PM9/etc I get more capacity, easier trigger, far faster reload speed, maybe even a more powerful round.... but none of that matters if I can't get the gun drawn. Forst shot hits from the pocket are far faster and far more sure with the Centennial style snubs.

For ankle carry the snubs, due to shape, conceal far better, and unless one goes to the G42, LCP, etc., the snubs are lighter to carry as well.

Agree with all of this, and will add that for me, a 642/442 feels much more comfortable on my ankle vs the G42 due to the shape. Skinny ankles and Null ankle holster, so YMMV.

[Velo Dog]

It's not even in the realm of reason to consider the .380 for steel and/or auto glass testing.

I agree. However, since there is no FBI "bone" test....
An intervening arm, for example, might mean that even 12" of penetration is not assured.

[Totem Polar]

I've often noted that small .380s like the LCP are simultaneously so much closer to carrying nothing than to carrying a duty pistol, and so much closer to having a duty pistol than to having nothing if a gun is needed, that the cost-to-benefit ratio pretty much removes most excuses for going unarmed.

But that said, the G43 was a revelation to me, for my lifestyle. As a low speed civvy, I find the micro Glocks to be the first real contenders against the 642/442 for NPE/deep conceal simply because they are so much easier to shoot at various distances and conditions. JMO. I'd never argue against a pro the need to carry one, but I'd sure raise the subject with folks going J-frame as primary. In fact, I've converted more than one snub owner over to the mini-Gastons.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I agree. However, since there is no FBI "bone" test....
An intervening arm, for example, might mean that even 12" of penetration is not assured.

Which is yet another reason to just not use the .380 ACP. It's one of those guns that Cooper was talking about when he said this: "Carry it if it comforts you, but don't load it! If you load it, you may shoot someone with it and anger them. They may then cause you harm!"

[TAZ]

Plenty of people have been killed by 22LR, 25, 32 and 380 so to say that it's useless or whatever is rather unfair. Not saying that you're going to 1 shot stop a grizzly with your G42 by any means, but there are times she you just can't conceal a thing bigger so its knife, pointy stick, rock or a small 380.

I know for me when wearing gym shorts any a T shirt nothing else is concealable. Even the 43 which is only slightly larger than the 42 prints badly (Dark Star Clip). The 42 just becomes invisible. I'll take the 380 over nothing any day.

With that in mind people need to really understand what they are carrying. Know the limitations of the platform and caliber. Train around them as best as possible so WTSHTF you're not using your 380 to shoot through a car door or something equally ineffective.

[GAP]

I'm not particularly sure why I need to, but I'll explain something about the people asking about .380 ammo.

.380s are for when you're wearing gym shorts and your gf/wife/kid wants to run down to the local ice cream place for a cone.

Not every individual thinks someone is trying to kill them every second of the day.

Not everyone wants to wear tactical pants and holster up on a 95 degree day for a 15 minute trip.

.380s are to keep crackheads from shanking you, not to take out AK wielding terrorists.

Threads like these make me shake my head. :(

[Velo Dog]

I apologize in advance to all who find my remarks overly harsh, but anyone who asks "Which .380 load is best" has already overestimated the cartridge's capability.

The .380 ACP is too inconsistent, erratic, and unpredictable even in laboratory testing to make definitive claims.
There is simply too much variance from one gun to another, or one box of ammo to another, or one test medium to another.
This problem precedes how much penetration or expansion is desirable.
Add to all this uncertainty the near inability of the .380 to meet even the bare minimum recommended performance standards under the best circumstances.

Put every round in an eye socket and perhaps none of this matters.

Carry a subcompact 9mm and we can discuss ammo expectations, but carry .380 and expect only to be disappointed.

[Velo Dog]

One of the problems with .380 Auto results is that the round is so inconsistent in performance.

It makes quite a difference whether a 3.25" barrel Glock 42 or a 2.5" barrel Kahr P380 is used.
It also matters more whether synthetic or organic gel is used for testing.
It also matters more what, if any, barriers are used.

The Critical Defense load looked good in the Lucky Gunner test...
http://www.luckygunner.com/hornady-380-acp-ammo-for-sale-380auto90ftxhornady-25#geltest
but, not so great in other tests.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQE0pRbtmO4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAyUW7s4EJk&index=23&list=PLgNSGOEQko_MjOCGyqlMTiM2njdQQRbdg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtuT7XqF8V8&list=PLgNSGOEQko_Nx7Q-88jeEVd5JW9n791lA&index=3
http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2012/04/another-realistic-9mm-vs-380-acp-test.html

OTOH, a good 9mm bullet will be very consistent in testing. Google it. Do a You Tube search. For example, the 124 gr. +P GDHP almost never fails to penetrate or expand reasonably. 10% organic gel, 20% gel, water jugs, wet pack, Clear gel, that diluted Sim-Test stuff that TNoutdoors9 uses...doesn't matter. 6", 4", 3" barrel...doesn't matter. Light clothing, heavy clothing, Carhartt coat, 2 layers of denim, 8 layers denim...doesn't matter. Plywood, pork ribs, drywall...doesn't matter.

[GAP]

If someone puts a couple wimpy .380s in your face you'll stop trying to take their lunch money. That's all it's for.. There's no confusion. I'm fairly certain everyone is in agreement that the round is mostly doo doo but it's tiny, light, and doesn't require a belt holster.

"Best" really means, what has the best chance to feed reliably 100% of the time. At least that's how I look at .380.

:)

[Hauptmann]

I'm not particularly sure why I need to, but I'll explain something about the people asking about .380 ammo.

.380s are for when you're wearing gym shorts and your gf/wife/kid wants to run down to the local ice cream place for a cone.

Not every individual thinks someone is trying to kill them every second of the day.

Not everyone wants to wear tactical pants and holster up on a 95 degree day for a 15 minute trip.

.380s are to keep crackheads from shanking you, not to take out AK wielding terrorists.

Threads like these make me shake my head. :(

I agree that many 9mms are too heavy to be the gym shorts gun. Although, I can tuck my P239 9mm boat anchor into my Underarmor underwear elastic band with gym shorts and it is secure enough that I could probably make short jogs without it moving. If I can do that with a Sig P239, I'm sure you guys can manage even better with a G43, Shield, or Walther PPS. If you stick a pistol in your pocket, then yeah it is loose, will be more visible, and will pull your pants down to one side. That's like the difference between letting a bowling ball roll around in the back of your truck, or securing it so that it doesn't roll.......securing it makes it convenient. There are also many elastic sleeves on the market to secure a pistol to your waist band when wearing gym shorts. Rust is a "minor" concern for me being in Mississippi, but really my Sigs(classic rust buckets) rarely show rust even when making lots of skin contact because I wipe down the contact areas with rust protectant before I carry, and after I carry. I'm sure with you Glock carrying guys, it is far easier.

When I run, I have used a S&W M&P J-frame with .38spl 135gr+P GDs and it works great as that ultra light subcompact. With the elastic sleeve securing this 12oz pistol to my waist band, I have been able to run long distance without any problem. Plus, it is a decent caliber that meets the FBI standards to deal with the potential Deliverance situation when trail running.....

[Velo Dog]

Here's why I gave up on .380 for concealed carry...Besides persistent reliability issues, I started reevaluating the reason I carry.
The .380 Auto may not be much of a gun, but it is still legally classified as a firearm and carries all the same risks, legal obligations, moral responsibility, and social stigma as a "real" gun. A pistol is not a can opener. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuG9kUiRC_I
You don't wave it around to get better service at the fast food drive-through. It is not a talisman to ward off the homeless begging for change.
A concealed handgun is for defending your life. If you honestly believe someone might try to murder you and that your hidden weapon of choice will be the only thing saving you from certain death, how much risk do you take? If a Ruger LCP is better than nothing, then so is a North American Arms mini revolver. Why not carry a less-than-lethal weapon? Why not just take a karate lesson? Why even leave one's home?
There are many things one can do to reduce the chance of a criminal attack, but when all else fails and a gun must be relied upon to prevent death or great bodily injury, the odds will never be in your favor. As our resident expert, DocGKR, will tell you: friends don't let friends carry .380 Auto. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16269-380-ACP-FMJ-vs-XTP

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Since there are success stories of folks with NAA minis defending themselves, they are better than nothing. Also, one carries a nonlethal for an interaction which doesn't meet the standard of lethal force. An example of that would be an aggressive panhandler.

This whole debate is getting a touch silly. I get the techy argument that an equally concealable J frame might be a better choice. However, if a person cannot carry a 1911 comfortably or a G19 and/or a G42 ( one that works) fits their requirements, it is much better than nothing. J aren't the easiest gun to master.

An article in SWAT recently did the whole stopping thing on 380s and how the author knows of an incident where a 380 round didn't penetrate lots of clothing so the big man decided to carry a 1911 and 2 mags. Well, that isn't working for an older church lady.

If a person is cognizant of firearms issues and trains - the utility of the smaller gun vs. nothing argument isn't that useful.

BTW, if we argue from anecdotes there was a guy who took down a school shooter with OC.

I would rather have 5 church ladies with G42s in the congregation who knew how to shoot them, than no guns because they aren't going to tote a 1911 to church. Maybe if they all shoot, most of the bullets will bounce off but someone might get in the eye socket. ;)

[Hauptmann]

Since there are success stories of folks with NAA minis defending themselves, they are better than nothing. Also, one carries a nonlethal for an interaction which doesn't meet the standard of lethal force. An example of that would be an aggressive panhandler.

This whole debate is getting a touch silly. I get the techy argument that an equally concealable J frame might be a better choice. However, if a person cannot carry a 1911 comfortably or a G19 and/or a G42 ( one that works) fits their requirements, it is much better than nothing. J aren't the easiest gun to master.

An article in SWAT recently did the whole stopping thing on 380s and how the author knows of an incident where a 380 round didn't penetrate lots of clothing so the big man decided to carry a 1911 and 2 mags. Well, that isn't working for an older church lady.

If a person is cognizant of firearms issues and trains - the utility of the smaller gun vs. nothing argument isn't that useful.

BTW, if we argue from anecdotes there was a guy who took down a school shooter with OC.

I would rather have 5 church ladies with G42s in the congregation who knew how to shoot them, than no guns because they aren't going to tote a 1911 to church. Maybe if they all shoot, most of the bullets will bounce off but someone might get in the eye socket. ;)

I don't think there is any question here that, one.....you should carry a gun when ever possible, and two......you should pick a gun that you shoot well. The disagreement here is to the level of inconvenience one should take to pack the right level of heat. The pocket gun crowd believes that there should be about as much inconvenience as packing a cell phone. The other side thinks you have no excuse as to why you cannot conceal a 1911/G40/HK45......etc(you dress for success). Then you have the the guys like me that stick to several critical rules:

1) The caliber chosen should be powerful enough to be considered an adequate service caliber based on testing and OISs.
2) I should be able to shoot the pistol well enough for accurate torso hits out to 25yrds, be able to shoot rapidly enough for fast multi-hits, and reloads and operation of the pistol should be ergonomically fast.
3) I should be able to adequately conceal the pistol wearing reasonable attire for August in Mississippi.

The best choice for those three criteria for is a subcompact 9mm. My choice right now is a Sig P239 9mm which can go pretty much anywhere in an IWB holster, and an elastic sleeve waist tuck for gym shorts occasions. There are lighter and smaller 9mms on the market, which can make it even easier for someone to conceal such a pistol. If I am running, most of the time I don't carry other than a sharp blade. I used to carry a S&W M&P scandium frame for that, but I chose to stop that given duty weapon restrictions. There are so many good options out there now days, and I just don't see why it is worth going smaller given the stakes. Anyone who has been in a fight knows that unless you have a force multiplier over the bad guy, victory is measured in inches and how badly you can claw your way out. There is no inconsequential increment in a fight......take every advantage you can get over the bad guy.

[Velo Dog]

Since there are success stories of folks with NAA minis defending themselves, they are better than nothing.
I would rather have 5 church ladies with G42s in the congregation who knew how to shoot them, than no guns because they aren't going to tote a 1911 to church.

I wish there were more "church lady guns" to choose from. Those old break top .32s and tiny turn-of-the-last-century .22s might still be useful templates for a modern carry piece.
http://unblinkingeye.com/Guns/MiniR/minir.html

[Hauptmann]

As our resident expert, DocGKR, will tell you: friends don't let friends carry .380 Auto. https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?16269-380-ACP-FMJ-vs-XTP

Not just Dr. Roberts, but Dr. Vincent Di Maio, Massad Ayoob, Dr. Martin Fackler, Duncan McPherson,.......and pretty much every ballistic expert in the last 50 years of the officer and civilian involved shootings has said the same thing.......DO NOT CARRY A .380 WHEN YOU CAN CARRY SOMETHING BETTER! The caliber has an abysmal track record as a whole. Even the worst sports team wins a game or two, but that doesn't mean you should bet your life that they make it to the playoffs.

[Velo Dog]

Good article from the late Stephen A. Camp
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/The+Defensive+380+ACP-Capable+Compact+or+Ballistic+Loser.htm

[JAD]

I try really hard to fight the temptation to go out of the house in my fucking pajamas.

Wait, no I don't.

[Hauptmann]

I try really hard to fight the temptation to go out of the house in my fucking pajamas.

Wait, no I don't.

Are you saying adults should wear decent clothing when going out in public, and that wearing that clothing also facilitates better pistol carry options? ;) What if some of our members want to look like welfare trash when leaving the house?

[VolGrad]

I'm not particularly sure why I need to, but I'll explain something about the people asking about .380 ammo.
.380s are for when you're wearing gym shorts and your gf/wife/kid wants to run down to the local ice cream place for a cone.
Not every individual thinks someone is trying to kill them every second of the day.
Not everyone wants to wear tactical pants and holster up on a 95 degree day for a 15 minute trip.
.380s are to keep crackheads from shanking you, not to take out AK wielding terrorists.
Threads like these make me shake my head. :(This is why I sometimes turn to a .380. I work from home most of the time. When I need to run to daycare to drop off/pickup my son or to the bus stop to get my daughter I throw a G42 or LCP in my pocket. When I have to run a quick errand and don't feel like strapping up I grab the little guys. This is only in summer. In winter I'm already wearing pants and a belt so I grab what most here would consider a real gun.

I apologize in advance to all who find my remarks overly harsh, but anyone who asks "Which .380 load is best" has already overestimated the cartridge's capability.
Nope. Not overestimating anything. The question was basically - if you have to carry something most here would not approve of in the way of caliber - is there an ammo that is preferred to make it less icky?

If someone puts a couple wimpy .380s in your face you'll stop trying to take their lunch money. That's all it's for.. There's no confusion. I'm fairly certain everyone is in agreement that the round is mostly doo doo but it's tiny, light, and doesn't require a belt holster.Yes. This.

This whole debate is getting a touch silly. I get the techy argument that an equally concealable J frame might be a better choice. However, if a person cannot carry a 1911 comfortably or a G19 and/or a G42 ( one that works) fits their requirements, it is much better than nothing. J aren't the easiest gun to master.
If a person is cognizant of firearms issues and trains - the utility of the smaller gun vs. nothing argument isn't that useful.

I would rather have 5 church ladies with G42s in the congregation who knew how to shoot them, than no guns because they aren't going to tote a 1911 to church. Maybe if they all shoot, most of the bullets will bounce off but someone might get in the eye socket. ;)Wise words.

I don't think there is any question here that, one.....you should carry a gun when ever possible, and two......you should pick a gun that you shoot well. The disagreement here is to the level of inconvenience one should take to pack the right level of heat. The pocket gun crowd believes that there should be about as much inconvenience as packing a cell phone. The other side thinks you have no excuse as to why you cannot conceal a 1911/G40/HK45......etc(you dress for success). Another good post. However, recognize there is still yet another "side" which is guys who fall in the middle - guys who know firearms pretty well, shoot pretty well, take it all serious but don't fancy themselves operators living in all or nothing world. That's me.

Now I'll go on and piss some folks off. Not intentionally, but it's going to happen. This site has changed so much over the years and frustrates me at times. I left for a while then came back to see how it had changed. The issue to me is folks that feel everything is black and white - all or nothing. They feel they do a good job concealing a full sized pistol, 2 extra mags, a clinch pic, and other various items all worn AIWB under just a t-shirt. There. If I can do it there's no excuse you can't either. If you don't then you don't take your safety seriously and anything you say should be mocked and then disregarded. Not everyone here is like this but there sure is a lot of it. There sure is a lot of condescension of folks that don't live the full tactical operator lifestyle. People come here to learn. People come here to gain knowledge. If they feel they aren't welcome they will stop coming. That's probably OK to some here because they don't like the extra noise drowning out their chest thumping and distract them from high fiving each other like it's a locker room.

[Hauptmann]

If you don't then you don't take your safety seriously and anything you say should be mocked and then disregarded. Not everyone here is like this but there sure is a lot of it. There sure is a lot of condescension of folks that don't live the full tactical operator lifestyle. People come here to learn. People come here to gain knowledge. If they feel they aren't welcome they will stop coming. That's probably OK to some here because they don't like the extra noise drowning out their chest thumping and distract them from high fiving each other like it's a locker room.

Sometimes a real friend doesn't tell you want you want to hear though, because they are erring on the side of the most fail-safe option to keep you and your family protected. I think a lot of people, including myself, can get caught in a web of our own delusions and excuses to the point that we believe it as gospel. That's why we come to places like this to shatter those comforting fantasies, and face hard to swallow advice from a collective of centuries of experienced law enforcement, military, scientists, hunters, competition shooters, and the 65yr old gun guys would have seen a lot......but not written books on it.

[VolGrad]

I don't disagree with what you just said. I just remember when this forum was more informative and less in your face pushy. I joined the forum way back when it first started and the group was more of a collective of folks that were pretty like minded in their pursuit of training and knowledge sharing.

I too believe a "real" gun is better than a "mouse" gun. I just believe it isn't always all or nothing. There is some gray area in the middle that sometimes is still a viable option for some folks under certain circumstances. Here's an example - NPE situations or quick errands. In an NPE I am simply NOT going to stap on my G19 and all the associated gear. I can probably pull it off but what if someone that is just as knowledgeable does "make" me and then I'm facing charges and will lose my right to carry at all. What's better - rolling the dice or carrying a "mouse" gun I can for sure 100% hide?

[VolGrad]

I also forgot to mention I have a toddler to tote around. Lots of bending over, lots of chasing around and picking him up, etc. in those instances it's more difficult to carry a full sized gun all the time under summer clothes.

My point is not all of us share the same lifestyle therefore we can't all carry all the gear all the time.

[Hauptmann]

I also forgot to mention I have a toddler to tote around. Lots of bending over, lots of chasing around and picking him up, etc. in those instances it's more difficult to carry a full sized gun all the time under summer clothes.

My point is not all of us share the same lifestyle therefore we can't all carry all the gear all the time.

Then we are in a similar situation since I have a 2yr old as well, and my wife and I work full time. However, the P239 9mm still goes with me just about everywhere with an extra mag in a 4 o-clock IWBH carry position(or 8 o-clock as I shoot left handed well too). This setup works fine with cargo shorts, jeans, kakis,.....anything with a belt and an untucked shirt. If it is a black or dark colored shirt, then it can fit tighter with no printing of the firearm. If it is a light colored shirt, then it needs to fit looser so that it doesn't print. If I am wearing a tucked in dress shirt or gym shorts, then the elastic sleeve conceals the pistol and extra mag under the clothing and I can pull my shirt out to retrieve it. Again this is with a bigger, P239 boat anchor......not a G43. My thoughts are that it is easy to carry a subcompact/micro 9mm under 95% of circumstances if you dress for it.

[VolGrad]

My thoughts are that it is easy to carry a subcompact/micro 9mm under 95% of circumstances if you dress for it.
... and I generally do carry a G43 which in my opinion is comparable to a 239 with regard to "real" gun value. When I get my next order JMCK in hand I am going to give the sub-compact P320 a go and see how it does for me.

[Velo Dog]

The question was basically - if you have to carry something most here would not approve of in the way of caliber - is there an ammo that is preferred to make it less icky?

Well, after all the information that was posted, what would you now recommend to a friend?

[GAP]

I still think for those rare .380 situations you're better off with a premium HP that may not expand much but will cycle reliably. I don't trust any of the FMJs in those tiny guns.

Gold dot or Hornady XTP

[JAD]

I still think for those rare .380 situations you're better off with a premium HP that may not expand much but will cycle reliably. I don't trust any of the FMJs in those tiny guns.

Gold dot or Hornady XTP

To my limited understanding, the problem with the hollowpoints isn't that they don't expand, but that they do, and that they therefore underpenetrate. I also don't trust any of the FMJs I'm aware of, and I think those two problems are why so many of the folks here feel like the .380 is a pretty suboptimal solution.

I was looking at .380s for the NPE application recently. I didn't see any good gun that was a lot smaller than the small nines*. I think if a small nine was really too big to carry for a given application, and that application was immutable, I would probably be studying on how to keep a P32 running.

*I understand the G42 to have fleas. It may not, anymore, and LCPs may not be as awful as they look.

[Hauptmann]

Clearly it is time for Dr. Roberts to bring back the IWBA. Unfortunately the old resources on Firearms Tactical and Tactical Forums are not around anymore, and the majority of the Youtube home gel testers are spreading false confidence in the .380 due to flawed methodology and testing practices.

Yes, JAD is right. The elephant in the room flaw with the .380 JHP is that when it does expand it slows down the projectile too much resulting in VERY shallow penetration. Usually 8-9" in bare gel, and less than 5" though a windshield. Deep penetration is the critical element of handgun effectiveness, followed by projectile cutting/crushing efficiency, followed by caliber size.

If I had to use a .380acp........let me think, no, I cannot think of a realistic time that I would HAVE to use a .380........... Okay, if I HAD to use one, it would be with a non-deforming projectile of match grade quality with sealed primer pockets and case mouths. Something I could easily do on my reloading bench if I HAD to. However, I don't think such a load currently exists commercially because.......there is no military/LE demand for it. It is a dead end caliber, with no real ability to be improved beyond its original purpose by John Browning in 1908 which was to fire a FMJ ball.

The closest .380 JHP available that "almost" meets the FBI 12" requirement in bare gel is the 90gr Hornady XTP invented in 1989. In 30 years of bullet engineering, manufacturers cannot make the .380 any better that what the XTP can do. Even so......the XTP comes up short.

[VolGrad]

Well, after all the information that was posted, what would you now recommend to a friend?

Don't carry a .380. It will surely get you killed. :cool:





I personally am carrying Black Hills 90gr JHP loaded with XTP bullets.

[GAP]

To my limited understanding, the problem with the hollowpoints isn't that they don't expand, but that they do, and that they therefore underpenetrate. I also don't trust any of the FMJs I'm aware of, and I think those two problems are why so many of the folks here feel like the .380 is a pretty suboptimal solution.

I was looking at .380s for the NPE application recently. I didn't see any good gun that was a lot smaller than the small nines*. I think if a small nine was really too big to carry for a given application, and that application was immutable, I would probably be studying on how to keep a P32 running.

*I understand the G42 to have fleas. It may not, anymore, and LCPs may not be as awful as they look.

It's a mix of both. When they open they don't penetrate enough to meet 12". But, they go 10,11, whatever. The penetration isn't cut in half.

I don't lose sleep over it, it's not my primary carry weapon.

[41magfan]

Don't carry a .380. It will surely get you killed. :cool:

So, does that mean I'm twice as likely to be killed if I carry two .380's .... or half as likely?

:^(

[VolGrad]

So, does that mean I'm twice as likely to be killed if I carry two .380's .... or half as likely?

:^(


Only if you carry them in duel shoulder holsters.

EDIT: The correct word is dual. Duel made the post funnier though.

[41magfan]

Only if you carry them in duel shoulder holsters.



Roger that!

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I'm carrying my NAA Arms mini in 22S. I don't care. My 642, 432 or G42 or even my 22 Mag NAA isn't going to leave the house as a BUG. So there.

[Chuck Haggard]

I agree. However, since there is no FBI "bone" test....
An intervening arm, for example, might mean that even 12" of penetration is not assured.

I do know of two BUG .380 OISs where the bullets got through the bad guy's arm/s on the way to the torso and ended to fight rather quickly. FMJ ammo used in both cases.

[Sadmin]

And here I sit at times with a .32

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[Velo Dog]

So, does that mean I'm twice as likely to be killed if I carry two .380's .... or half as likely?

:^(


I have some recollection of the F.B.I.'s attempt to score wounding effectiveness in the late eighties or early nineties. Since the .380 was supposedly given a negative "wound value" assessment, the joke at the time was that being shot with a .380 presumably should make one feel better. ;)

[Velo Dog]

If someone puts a couple wimpy .380s in your face you'll stop trying to take their lunch money.

Want to know what fits in my pocket and keeps bullies from taking my lunch money?






My fist :cool:

[GAP]

Want to know what fits in my pocket and keeps bullies from taking my lunch money?

My fist :cool:

Ya, but, what if I want your lunch money?





(It's funny because I'm a professionally ranked MMA fighter.)

[Velo Dog]

Ya, but, what if I want your lunch money?





(It's funny because I'm a professionally ranked MMA fighter.)

Don't know, but it could get messy. You've apparently never seen me eat! ;)

[BillSWPA]

As I type this, I am sitting in my office with a Glock 26 in my pocket and Kel-Tec P3AT on my ankle. I am wearing a tucked in short sleeve shirt and dress slacks, with no cover garment. As I deal with the beginning stages of arthritis in my knees, I don't want anything any heavier on my ankle. When I ran for fitness, strapping anything to my ankle after pushing one of my kids 5 miles in a jogging stroller was the last thing I wanted to do. A tiny .380 allows me to have a backup gun that otherwise would not be there.

I am self-employed, so I get to do what I want. The above is much more than I would be willing to carry in a non-permissive environment where getting caught could result in several hundred thousand dollars in economic consequences. The tiny .380's have a definite place even as a primary gun. Any time I see someone talking about carrying anything much larger in a true NPE, I know that person has little or no experience carrying in NPE's.

When I help teach my range's NRA Basic Pistol class, I seem to get a disproportionate percentage of older ladies with hand problems. The more I see of them learning how to shoot, the less concerned I am about stopping power, and the more concerned I am with making sure they get something they will actually carry and can shoot accurately. For some of them, a .22 is the best answer.

Even if we are talking about a younger lady with no health issues, concealing a gun is much more difficult for them. 999 out of 1,000 are not going to dress around the gun. They also don't care for much of what we do to hide guns. Again, a tiny .380 (or even .32) has its place. In fact, I may have been more successful at getting my wife to carry much more often than she does if I had been a lot less worried about minimum caliber requirements earlier in our relationship.

Re: stopping power: I have read what DocGKR has written, and do not pretend to be qualified to debate him. I will say that, according to a table linked earlier in this thread, the Winchester JHP in the .380 on my ankle will typically penetrate a little over 9" of gelatin, which will get it to the center of someone with at least a 56 inch chest. That might not be ideal, and there might be good reasons why not, but it is certainly more than "better than nothing."

[David S.]

As I type this, I am sitting in my office with a Glock 26 in my pocket and Kel-Tec P3AT on my ankle. I am wearing a tucked in short sleeve shirt and dress slacks, with no cover garment. As I deal with the beginning stages of arthritis in my knees, I don't want anything any heavier on my ankle. When I ran for fitness, strapping anything to my ankle after pushing one of my kids 5 miles in a jogging stroller was the last thing I wanted to do. A tiny .380 allows me to have a backup gun that otherwise would not be there.

I am self-employed, so I get to do what I want. The above is much more than I would be willing to carry in a non-permissive environment where getting caught could result in several hundred thousand dollars in economic consequences. The tiny .380's have a definite place even as a primary gun. Any time I see someone talking about carrying anything much larger in a true NPE, I know that person has little or no experience carrying in NPE's.

When I help teach my range's NRA Basic Pistol class, I seem to get a disproportionate percentage of older ladies with hand problems. The more I see of them learning how to shoot, the less concerned I am about stopping power, and the more concerned I am with making sure they get something they will actually carry and can shoot accurately. For some of them, a .22 is the best answer.

Even if we are talking about a younger lady with no health issues, concealing a gun is much more difficult for them. 999 out of 1,000 are not going to dress around the gun. They also don't care for much of what we do to hide guns. Again, a tiny .380 (or even .32) has its place. In fact, I may have been more successful at getting my wife to carry much more often than she does if I had been a lot less worried about minimum caliber requirements earlier in our relationship.

Re: stopping power: I have read what DocGKR has written, and do not pretend to be qualified to debate him. I will say that, according to a table linked earlier in this thread, the Winchester JHP in the .380 on my ankle will typically penetrate a little over 9" of gelatin, which will get it to the center of someone with at least a 56 inch chest. That might not be ideal, and there might be good reasons why not, but it is certainly more than "better than nothing."

Because sometimes one like just isn't enough.

[Chuck Haggard]

And here I sit at times with a .32

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

It's OK, that's almost a .380

[41magfan]

I have some recollection of the F.B.I.'s attempt to score wounding effectiveness in the late eighties or early nineties. Since the .380 was supposedly given a negative "wound value" assessment, the joke at the time was that being shot with a .380 presumably should make one feel better. ;)

Well, there you go. Perhaps someone should dig up all those mindless derps that have fallen to benign cartridges like the .380 and give them the lowdown?

;^)

[Velo Dog]

I'm carrying my NAA Arms mini in 22S. I don't care. My 642, 432 or G42 or even my 22 Mag NAA isn't going to leave the house as a BUG. So there.

So what ammo does everyone recommend in .22 Short for a revolver with an 1-1/8" barrel for self defense? Asking for a friend. ;)

[Hauptmann]

So what ammo does everyone recommend in .22 Short for a revolver with an 1-1/8" barrel for self defense? Asking for a friend. ;)

I worked an attempted murder case about a decade ago where a shooter fired 4 .22 shorts from a mini revolver into a victim's forehead and none of them penetrated the skull. The perp though all the surface damage got the job done, but the victim made a full recovery. On the other hand, I worked a murder case 2 years ago where the victim took a single .22lr to the head from a S&W semi auto with 5" barrel. That shot did the job easily, and it actually bounced around inside the skull inflicting more damage. Some other .22lr shootings that I have been around for have usually resulted in the victim making a full recovery unless the heart is damaged, or the brain box is penetrated. If I "had" to use a .22lr, it would be a fast operating semi auto with at least a 5" barrel and lots of ammo on tap.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I just bought the NAA 22S as it was cute. I have some solid CCI shorts in it. Not really a carry gun. I have put in a sport jacket pocket in a little holster as a tertiary bug just for grins.

BTW, I tried the old TX CHL blue bottle target test with the 22S and the 1 5/8 " 22 mag. The max score was 250 - child's play with any full size gun. With the 1 5/8 " I shot a 230 ish. Missed a couple of shots over the shoulder and some outside the center. However, with the 22S, it was about a 140 ish. It is a up your nose gun.

The minis are what they are. There was a story about a geezer in Florida who was in a restaurant and guy came in with a shot gun to rob the place. Geezer shot him in the stomach with a 22 Mag mini and another shot him with a 22 mag derringer and the BG ran away.

[BillSWPA]

When I got my first concealed handgun license in January of 1996, the only true pocket pistol available above .22 or .25 caliber was made by Seecamp. At the time, ordering one required waiting three years, and they sold for upwards of $1,000 when they could be found - more than I could spend on a gun as a law student. People I knew with small .22 or .25 semiautos told of less than ideal reliability, but some people I respected carried North American Arms .22 lr. revolvers in their pockets as BUGs. So, I bought one of these as an easily carried backup gun and/or NPE gun. The gun was used in that role until .32 autos became more widely available from NAA and Kel-Tec.

The gun has amazing intrinsic accuracy for its small size, but the tiny grips make practical accuracy challenging. Recoil definitely affects the bullet path. The slightly larger but still quite small "boot" grips go a long way towards solving that problem. Laserlyte will soon offer a lasergrip for these guns, and I intend to try one.

I used CCI Stingers in mine. I always assumed it would have to be a very close range gun, and that I would have to aim for soft tissue and/or the eye/nose triangle.

There is a story in the "Sandy's Soapbox" section of the NAA website describing a Central American or South American police officer who used a .22 mag. mini revolver hidden in his underwear to save his life after he was overwhelmed by a group of three drug dealers despite his Glock 22.

These guns can be hidden in places where no other gun could effectively be hidden, giving them a useful niche.

[Velo Dog]

I just bought the NAA 22S as it was cute. I have some solid CCI shorts in it. Not really a carry gun.

I have killed a raccoon with a single head shot from a slightly longer 2'' snub using that same CCI high velocity load.



Next time I think I will look around for a pointy stick first.

[Velo Dog]

Nick Styles: I guess a Beretta in the butt beats a butterfly in a boot, huh?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDAJI-z7l_c

[Velo Dog]

Of course, John McClane can pull this off with a full size Beretta 92

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnQEo4bazIo

[Wondering Beard]

While looking for something else, I came across this Black Hills Load (http://www.black-hills.com/shop/new-pistol-ammo/380-automatic/) for the .380. It's a 100gr FMJ at about 850 fps. Looking at the bare gelatin testing (second gel photo at the link), it penetrates about 14 inches. It might be worth some consideration for this underpowered caliber,

[DocGKR]

That is a nice load...

[Hauptmann]

That is a nice load...

The best of the worst?

[Al T.]

To quote Tamara;


tallest midget at the state fair

Still, locally, I'm aware of two bad guys (two different instances) who are eating their salads from the roots up due to good placement of one .22 (LR or M, unknown) and three .32 ACPs.

[FNFAN]

To quote Tamara;



Still, locally, I'm aware of two bad guys (two different instances) who are eating their salads from the roots up due to good placement of one .22 (LR or M, unknown) and three .32 ACPs.

A few years back a wayward visitor to our country made the mistake of trying to solicit donations at gunpoint -in a pub frequented by Vegas Metro folks. He was quickly dispatched with a mag of .25's

[Hauptmann]

"tallest midget at the state fair"


That is fricken epic.

[Sigfan26]

A few years back a wayward visitor to our country made the mistake of trying to solicit donations at gunpoint -in a pub frequented by Vegas Metro folks. He was quickly dispatched with a mag of .25's

A cop with a .25 at a bar...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Al T.]

That is fricken epic.

Lots more where that came from:

http://booksbikesboomsticks.blogspot.com/

[hufnagel]

There sure is a lot of condescension of folks that don't live the full tactical operator lifestyle. People come here to learn. People come here to gain knowledge. If they feel they aren't welcome they will stop coming. That's probably OK to some here because they don't like the extra noise drowning out their chest thumping and distract them from high fiving each other like it's a locker room.

You get a like from me for that; and I don't dish out many of those.

[deputyG23]

I have often wondered whether a good .32/7.65 Browning handgun loaded with Euro-spec ammo would do as well or maybe a little better than .380. If Beretta ever actually sells the Pico in 7.65/32, I would be very tempted to try one as a NPE or a secondary/tertiary piece.

[Duelist]

I have often wondered whether a good .32/7.65 Browning handgun loaded with Euro-spec ammo would do as well or maybe a little better than .380. If Beretta ever actually sells the Pico in 7.65/32, I would be very tempted to try one as a NPE or a secondary/tertiary piece.

Wonder how hard it would be to just get a barrel made for one? I have a P32 that I use in preference to getting a little .380. It's weight and size do the job. But it isn't terribly accurate. Makes me wonder about headspacing - is it headspacing on the rim, or the casemouth? And bore size - .32 ACP isn't the most consistent from make to make on bore size, and that makes me wonder about which factory euro ball to carry.

Of course, the sights on it make the standard fixed sight revolver sights look fantastic in comparison.

[BillSWPA]

Wonder how hard it would be to just get a barrel made for one? I have a P32 that I use in preference to getting a little .380. It's weight and size do the job. But it isn't terribly accurate. Makes me wonder about headspacing - is it headspacing on the rim, or the casemouth? And bore size - .32 ACP isn't the most consistent from make to make on bore size, and that makes me wonder about which factory euro ball to carry.

Of course, the sights on it make the standard fixed sight revolver sights look fantastic in comparison.

Does the gun consistently shoot off to one direction? Mine shot about 5" to the right at 30 ft. when new. A gunsmith removed some metal from the left side muzzle opening in the slide, welded some metal to the right side, and moved the barrel over slightly. The gun now shoots fine from the standpoint of windage.

A Crimson Trace LaserGuard is the best aftermarket sight option I have found.

[Duelist]

Does the gun consistently shoot off to one direction? Mine shot about 5" to the right at 30 ft. when new. A gunsmith removed some metal from the left side muzzle opening in the slide, welded some metal to the right side, and moved the barrel over slightly. The gun now shoots fine from the standpoint of windage.

A Crimson Trace LaserGuard is the best aftermarket sight option I have found.

Interesting. I'll have to sit down with it and get some more serious groups done. Without having done that, I can only say that it just seems to make larger groups than I was expecting.