We have 40sw ammo so why the watered down 10mm?

[Splat!]

Since I got my Glock G29 10mm I noticed we have 10mm ammo with 40sw ballistics (and worse) and cost more than the 40sw ammo themselves. I bought a Lone Wolf barrel in 40sw for my G29 and I have a Sig P250c 40sw as well.

Heck, some folks even shot 40sw in their 10mm barrels with no problems. :cool:

When I buy 10mm ammo I expected to get 10mm loads. I have Some hot 40sw like the Hornady 165 FTX and Underwood 155 XTP and I want my 10mm 180 to be hotter than them.

At Academy they have Sig Elite 180 that does 1250 fps That I'm satisfied with. Right now I have Hornady 10mm 175 FlexLock (1150 fps) for carry also from Academy. That's the mildest I'll go and Hornady are good stuff. I have 'em in 9mm, 40sw and now 10mm. :D

[Jeep]

I think that one issue is that full-house 10 mm loads tend to be tough on guns. There have been a number of threads here on the difficulty of getting some pistols to run with them.

[Chuck Haggard]

Almost nobody builds a bullet that works well at 10mm velocities.

That Federal Bonded SP is an example of one built for the purpose.

The 10mm is a very nichey niche. Little incentive for the big names to invest money in it.

[Splat!]

Interesting you said that Chuck. I have an Underwood 40sw 155 XTP that does 1300 fps and they showed good results in gel. Why not 10mm 180 XTP at 1300 fps? Underwood have such a load that I'm going to order.

We had debates about slow and heavy vs light and fast bullets so how about heavy and fast? They certainly would put down the threat quicker.

[DocGKR]

"They certainly would put down the threat quicker."

Why do you think that? What physiological data is there to show that a 180 gr bullet at 1300 is more capable of incapacitation than a 180 gr bullet at 1000 fps?

How many large LE agencies and military units use Underwood loads for duty use?

[Splat!]

Because it hit harder? :cool:

[Clusterfrack]

"Only manly men and very dangerous mythical creatures can handle the raw power of the 10mm"

[spinmove_]

It's still just a pistol caliber which means that, at the end of the day, it's just going to poke a hole in a human body. Pretty much just like every major service caliber does. Only with 10mm, you're doing it with a snappier sensation and slower followup shots. And the ammo costs more as well. If that's your thing, then have fun with it. I have a feeling, however, that Doc has some data that would pretty much show that 10mm doesn't do anything measurably better than 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP. Nothing that doesn't outweigh easier recoiling and more cost effective solutions anyway.

[Little Creek]

"Only manly men and very dangerous mythical creatures can handle the raw power of the 10mm"

I know there is some humor in the above statement. I seriously doubt that anyone can shoot a major sub 10MM with full power loads as well as they could shoot a 40S&W let alone a 9mm or 45ACP. Remember it is speed, power and accuracy, not just raw power. That being said, I have a G40 for hunting deer, hogs, and such. No offense intended. I know I will get some flak from someone on the board.

[Little Creek]

It's still just a pistol caliber which means that, at the end of the day, it's just going to poke a hole in a human body. Pretty much just like every major service caliber does. Only with 10mm, you're doing it with a snappier sensation and slower followup shots. And the ammo costs more as well. If that's your thing, then have fun with it. I have a feeling, however, that Doc has some data that would pretty much show that 10mm doesn't do anything measurably better than 9mm, .40S&W, or .45ACP. Nothing that doesn't outweigh easier recoiling and more cost effective solutions anyway.

AMEN, brother.

[GJM]

The appeal of 10mm is that it might offer enough more velocity to penetrate certain things, like an animal's skull, that a regular service caliber would not. Those things, like a skull, having a minimum velocity threshold for penetration, that effectively turns the bullet into a pass/fail exercise.

There are two related issues. One issue is whether that load will function reliably in a semi-auto, because if it won't function reliably, the stoppage sort of negates the capacity advantage of the 10mm in a pistol. The second issue being whether the bullet is designed as a penetrator load, and will perform with enough penetration to penetrate the skull. A subset of number two, is who makes that penetrating load, and is their quality such that you would reasonably be able to rely on it.

[Chuck Haggard]

Interesting you said that Chuck. I have an Underwood 40sw 155 XTP that does 1300 fps and they showed good results in gel. Why not 10mm 180 XTP at 1300 fps? Underwood have such a load that I'm going to order.

We had debates about slow and heavy vs light and fast bullets so how about heavy and fast? They certainly would put down the threat quicker.

Many 10mms are not reliable with the heavier loads you list.

That's the fly in the ointment that guys like GJM have discovered.

[Chuck Haggard]

Because it hit harder? :cool:

Smart ass comments on subjects like this, when you are talking to one of the world's leading experts in the field, are not as cool as you think they are.

[GJM]

Smart ass comments on subjects like this, when you are talking to one of the world's leading experts in the field, are not as cool as you think they are.

Actually, leaving aside how you view the smiley, "because it hits harder" is a pretty universally held belied, that at times is true. Consider folks buying 5.56 loads vs .223, Weatherby vs regular cartridges, .300 WM vs .30-06, .38 vs .357. Companies like Double Tap probably wouldn't exist but for their velocity claims.

I think you just have to dig deeper and say considering this particular pistol, and this particular load, for this particular purpose, does more velocity help or hurt.

[Chuck Haggard]

Actually, leaving aside how you view the smiley, "because it hits harder" is a pretty universally held belied, that at times is true. Consider folks buying 5.56 loads vs .223, Weatherby vs regular cartridges, .300 WM vs .30-06, .38 vs .357. Companies like Double Tap probably wouldn't exist but for their velocity claims.

I think you just have to dig deeper and say considering this particular pistol, and this particular load, for this particular purpose, does more velocity help or hurt.

Without specifically designed bullets it tends to hurt the results, badly.

Even if they don't go to shit from the bullet being over driven, are the results better? 1300fps isn't enough velocity, with a bullet this sized, to start to get a significant temp cavity, thus the extra recoil and blast are wasted efforts.

[Splat!]

The ballistic gel tests with various calibers showed similar results, yes that's a given but the reaction of the gel blocks tells the story. It shows that a high powered heavy slugs tends to interrupt the threat's intentions to cause bodily harms.

No, I'm not talking about one shot stops.

[BehindBlueI's]

The ballistic gel tests with various calibers showed similar results, yes that's a given but the reaction of the gel blocks tells the story. It shows that a high powered heavy slugs tends to interrupt the threat's intentions to cause bodily harms.

No, I'm not talking about one shot stops.

You don't know what you don't know. If you've come to educate people who deal with people shot daily, who test ammunition for major organizations, and who've got real life gun fight experience with your experience watching a gel block jump and making some assumptions based on that, I suspect you'll have a bad time here.

[Splat!]

See ya

[JF1]

It shows that a high powered heavy slugs tends to interrupt the threat's intentions

This is where theory doesn't meet the reality of determined threats mind set.

[gtmtnbiker98]

See ya

Bye!!!!!!!

[Odin Bravo One]

Watching the forum police itself is refreshing.

Thank you.

[breakingtime91]

damnit I showed up late.. bye splat.

[1slow]

I appreciate this forum !

I can learn rather than watch monkeys through poo at each other.

[Chuck Haggard]

Watching gel blocks jiggle is no more a way to determine "stopping power" than moist harlots throwing scimitars at people is a way to choose a form of government.

[spinmove_]

Watching gel blocks jiggle is no more a way to determine "stopping power" than moist harlots throwing scimitars at people is a way to choose a form of government.

I hear they put you away for telling people such things. But then again, I have a feeling that system would work better for us than our current political system here in the states...

[Lester Polfus]

Watching gel blocks jiggle is no more a way to determine "stopping power" than moist harlots throwing scimitars at people is a way to choose a form of government.

I'm actually a big fan of the 10mm cartridge, not as a duty or concealed carry round, but as a back country, woodsman knock around gun. However, I'm thinking about closeting myself as a 10mm aficionado, less I get categorized with all the other derpsters out there.

I've had the discussion a couple of times that the 10mm offers nothing extra as an anti-felon round, when compared to modern, barrier blind rounds, and in fact is at a handicap because of recoil, lack of bullets designed for the cartrdige, etc. Then folks point out how much the blocks jump, and start talking about "energy dump" and I remember that I'm wasting my time.

[Jeep]

Watching gel blocks jiggle is no more a way to determine "stopping power" than moist harlots throwing scimitars at people is a way to choose a form of government.

Wait. I agree on gel blocks, but I haven't heard about this moist-harlots-throwing-scimitars idea before and I think we might want to consider it more carefully before discarding it.

If nothing else, my bet is that the TV ratings would be awesome.

[Lester Polfus]

Wait. I agree on gel blocks, but I haven't heard about this moist-harlots-throwing-scimitars idea before and I think we might want to consider it more carefully before discarding it.

If nothing else, my bet is that the TV ratings would be awesome.

I believe it is "moistened bint"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOOTKA0aGI0

[GJM]

In many threads, for a number of years, we have been discussing the concepts of:

1) semi-auto field pistols

2) appropriate penetrating loads/bullets for field pistols

3) and experiences with how these field loads function

A difference, is we have many LE organizations testing JHP duty loads and duty firearms, which provides a deep data base of gel testing, people testing, and platform reliability data. We don't have that happening to the same extent for field pistols, because compared to LE, there are fewer people using semi-auto pistols for field use, there is a wade variety of ammo that folks carry, and not enough of it gets shot to have good reliability data. Plus, not a lot of bears have been shot in the skull with these pistols.

[LSP552]

Watching .....jiggle......

Chuck, I like things that jiggle :D

[Chuck Haggard]

In many threads, for a number of years, we have been discussing the concepts of:

1) semi-auto field pistols

2) appropriate penetrating loads/bullets for field pistols

3) and experiences with how these field loads function

A difference, is we have many LE organizations testing JHP duty loads and duty firearms, which provides a deep data base of gel testing, people testing, and platform reliability data. We don't have that happening to the same extent for field pistols, because compared to LE, there are fewer people using semi-auto pistols for field use, there is a wade variety of ammo that folks carry, and not enough of it gets shot to have good reliability data. Plus, not a lot of bears have been shot in the skull with these pistols.


You ever seen this one George?

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr152.pdf

[GJM]

You ever seen this one George?

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/pnw_gtr152.pdf

I actually have had that printed out and lying on a file cabinet near my desk for the last few years. No doubt when this topic first came up on PF!

[Chuck Haggard]

Chuck, I like things that jiggle :D

Everybody does. Scientific fact.

[Kyle Reese]

Bye Felicia


senditaj el mia cerbo mian ipad

[CCT125US]

Bye Felicia


And you beat me to it.

[Bigghoss]

I'm actually a big fan of the 10mm cartridge, not as a duty or concealed carry round, but as a back country, woodsman knock around gun.

I'm interested in getting into 10mm for this reason. Right now I usually pack a GP100 in the woods but I would like to switch to a fullsize Glock 10mm when the budget allows.

[Lester Polfus]

I'm interested in getting into 10mm for this reason. Right now I usually pack a GP100 in the woods but I would like to switch to a fullsize Glock 10mm when the budget allows.

Hey man, I don't know if you saw it or not, but we wrung that topic out pretty good a few days ago. Starting here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20650-9-mm-147-gr-duty-load-testing&p=453880&viewfull=1#post453880).

[Lost River]

See ya

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/docH_zpsxrckj59g.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/docH_zpsxrckj59g.jpg.html)

[Handy]

Is there no good data from ballisticly similar (.41/.44) revolver loads to offer any guidance in how a field 10mm load could be made to perform?


On a related note, when is it that big, fat subsonic bullets start wounding like rifle rounds rather than pistol rounds? .45-70, 20 gauge slug, etc.

[GJM]

Is there no good data from ballisticly similar (.41/.44) revolver loads to offer any guidance in how a field 10mm load could be made to perform?


On a related note, when is it that big, fat subsonic bullets start wounding like rifle rounds rather than pistol rounds? .45-70, 20 gauge slug, etc.

There is good data from wide meplat, hard cast bullets shot out of .41 and .44 revolvers. There is also pretty good data that those wide meplat, heavy hard cast bullets don't feed so well out of service pistols.

[Drang]

Watching gel blocks jiggle is no more a way to determine "stopping power" than moist harlots throwing scimitars at people is a way to choose a form of government.

8631

[Handy]

There is good data from wide meplat, hard cast bullets shot out of .41 and .44 revolvers. There is also pretty good data that those wide meplat, heavy hard cast bullets don't feed so well out of service pistols.

Ah.

Which I suppose you could fix with a plastic nose piece, but someone would have to actually be bothered to make such a round for 10mm.

Or figure out how to get a Glock to feed something like the way a S&W 52 feeds .38 Wadcutter. Just thinking out loud.


But nothing like a Barnes X is going to do it, then? Maybe too little case capacity in 10mm for a copper solid?

[GJM]

Ah.

Which I suppose you could fix with a plastic nose piece, but someone would have to actually be bothered to make such a round for 10mm.

Or figure out how to get a Glock to feed something like the way a S&W 52 feeds .38 Wadcutter. Just thinking out loud.


But nothing like a Barnes X is going to do it, then? Maybe too little case capacity in 10mm for a copper solid?

It has been some years, but a buddy witnessed some testing with Corbon .44 magnum with the Barnes bullet, and the penetration was not great.

[Tamara]

Heck, some folks even shot 40sw in their 10mm barrels with no problems. :cool:

Please, Jesus, don't let anyone reading this think that's a good idea.

The cartridge would be headspacing on the extractor claw. It would be entirely possible for the striker to impact hard enough to both dislodge the cartridge from the claw and detonate the primer. Then you have an unsupported .40 S&W letting go in the chamber and next thing you know, you're picking up random Glock parts off the range.

[Handy]

Please, Jesus, don't let anyone reading this think that's a good idea.

The cartridge would be headspacing on the extractor claw. It would be entirely possible for the striker to impact hard enough to both dislodge the cartridge from the claw and detonate the primer. Then you have an unsupported .40 S&W letting go in the chamber and next thing you know, you're picking up random Glock parts off the range.

How would a .40 cartridge ending up deeper into the chamber make it less supported?

[Wondering Beard]

It wouldn't be deeper since it's held back by the extractor.

[Handy]

It wouldn't be deeper since it's held back by the extractor.

The suggestion was that it could get ahead of the extractor claw.

[FPS]

Full house 10mm is a PITA. I haven't quite reached the point of throwing in the towel since I have too much money into it, but man is it frustrating.

My experience:

1) Stock Gen 3 Glock 29SF - dings the brass with full power loads. Tons of forum research hours. Buy aftermarket recoil spring. Problem solved
2) Accuracy issues - trying to figure out if it is me, the bullets, the dies whatever. Diagnose (probably me). Tons of forum research hours.
3) Buy KKM barrel for better chamber support.
4) Numerous FTF issues (Underwood 180 gr TMJ, Underwood 200gr hardcast, my own 180 gr. loads). More forum research.
5) Next steps - test for magazine issues, try loading to a shorter COL for more reliable feeding (maybe) without causing pressure issues, test grip/wrist lock/elbow lock.
6) While testing - bought pancake holster for SW 629 and some speed loaders. Time to start practicing for woods carry.

I am quickly losing confidence that I have the ability to diagnose the issues. One change seems to fix one problem and then create another with full house loads.

[GJM]

Full house 10mm is a PITA. I haven't quite reached the point of throwing in the towel since I have too much money into it, but man is it frustrating.

My experience:

1) Stock Gen 3 Glock 29SF - dings the brass with full power loads. Tons of forum research hours. Buy aftermarket recoil spring. Problem solved
2) Accuracy issues - trying to figure out if it is me, the bullets, the dies whatever. Diagnose (probably me). Tons of forum research hours.
3) Buy KKM barrel for better chamber support.
4) Numerous FTF issues (Underwood 180 gr TMJ, Underwood 200gr hardcast, my own 180 gr. loads). More forum research.
5) Next steps - test for magazine issues, try loading to a shorter COL for more reliable feeding (maybe) without causing pressure issues, test grip/wrist lock/elbow lock.
6) While testing - bought pancake holster for SW 629 and some speed loaders. Time to start practicing for woods carry.

I am quickly losing confidence that I have the ability to diagnose the issues. One change seems to fix one problem and then create another with full house loads.

You are smarter than me, because I came to the same conclusion, but it took me ten years, and a dozen Glock 20 and 29 pistols. They run fine with JHP ammo like the 180/200 XTP Hornady loadings, but then they are not materially better as a woods gun than a .40. And the .40 is much cheaper to feed with a greater variety of practice and JHP ammo.

My experience with the 1066/1076 was better, but they still wouldn't reliably feed heavy, hard cast ammo.

My Delta 1911 was about the best with 10mm, but I don't really want to carry a 1911 as a woods gun, dunking it in streams and bogs, and trying to run it with gloves.

The USP 45 has, far and away, been the best thing I have tried, although it is a large pistol, and not going to win a competition trying to shoot fast.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I like 10mm for purely aesthetic reasons.

The one thing I think it really has going for it is you can run it in 1911s, and always get 9 in the stack, which is better than .45, PLUS it's a longer cartridge than 9mm so I think you're less out towards to edge of the reliability envelope.

So if you like to shoot 1911s and you're borderline on the 9s (and I'm still on the fence myself) then a 10mm gives you an extra dose per mag, or if you want to run 10 round mags you're still looking at a nice straight walled cartridge and fewer headaches even if you pile them up.

Besides which, you feel awesome shooting a ten. I mean I live somewhere pretty safe, where carry is basically out of the question anyway, so there's not much point in me fixating on always having the single least interesting possible 9mm service pistol (although I do in spades: 1x19, 2x17, 1x34). So I might as well go for style points.


But I think there is a rational argument for 10mm IF you're working with certain particular parameters, such as a serious interest in 1911s as laid out above.

[GJM]

I haven't explored it in depth with him, but in a 1911 for heavy loads, I believe Bill Wilson is more keen on .45 Super than 10.

For a reloader shooting a 1911, the 10mm seems like a great cartridge at modest power factors.

[Maple Syrup Actual]

That's exactly how I see it...you can get a more forgiving 1911 that launches, effectively, .40s&w duty ammo.

[Velo Dog]

Is there no good data from ballisticly similar (.41/.44) revolver loads to offer any guidance in how a field 10mm load could be made to perform?


The full power Remington .41 Magnum load was a 210 gr. bullet @ 1300 fps from a 4" vented test barrel.
The .41, and even the .357, is commonly the minimum recommended cartridge for hunting black bear and wild boar
http://www.foggymountain.com/handgun-bear-hunting.shtml
http://hog-blog.com/handguns-for-hogs/
Therefore, a person might assume that the 10mm Auto is at least marginal, depending on the distance and the angle of the shot.

HOWEVER...

According to Winchester, the 175 gr Silvertip hollow point @ 1250 fps in .41 Mag is recommended for whitetail, mule deer, antelope, black bear, wild boar, et cetera, while the 175 gr. Silvertip hollow point @ 1290 fps in 10mm is only recommended for personal protection.
http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-handgun/Pages/X41MSTHP2.aspx
http://www.winchester.com/Products/handgun-ammunition/Performance/Super-X-handgun/Pages/X10MMSTHP.aspx

BUT...

Federal claims their 180 gr. Trophy Bonded jsp 10mm @ 1275 is appropriate for elk...

ELK.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=1071

THIS LOAD ==> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTAdVZXLnb0

Meanwhile, the Federal .41 Mag loading of a 210 gr. Swift A-Frame bullet @ 1360 fps is merely adequate for medium game.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=854

SMDH:confused:

[FPS]

According to Winchester, the 175 gr Silvertip hollow point @ 1250 fps in .41 Mag is recommended for whitetail, mule deer, antelope, black bear, wild boar, et cetera, while the 175 gr. Silvertip hollow point @ 1290 fps in 10mm is only recommended for personal protection

Genuine question - I don't have my manuals in front of me but if they are the same weight bullet, same type, roughly the same size, and going the same speed, how are they not interchangeable? Is this just marketing talk or is there a difference I am missing?

[Velo Dog]

Is this just marketing talk or is there a difference I am missing?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ytu4-oFPv48

[Velo Dog]

Winchester lists exactly ONE .44 Magnum load for elk, moose, caribou, brown bear and similar big game.
http://www.winchester.com/PRODUCTS/handgun-ammunition/Pages/SearchResults.aspx?g=Brown%20Bear

The only load, other than the previously mentioned 10mm :rolleyes:, Federal suggests for large, heavy game is a 325 gr. Swift A-Frame @ 1800 fps in 500 S&W.
http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=860

[Lester Polfus]

Genuine question - I don't have my manuals in front of me but if they are the same weight bullet, same type, roughly the same size, and going the same speed, how are they not interchangeable? Is this just marketing talk or is there a difference I am missing?

Hey man. I haven't spent any time with the .41 Mag, but the .41 Mag Silvertip and the 10mm Silvertip aren't necessarily the same bullet. Even though the weigh the same, and are only .01 different in size, differences in jacket thickness and other details of bullet construction can greatly influence how rapidly a bullet expands when it hits a target.

The 10mm 175 grain Silvertip load is pretty long in the tooth. I remember it from at least the mid-90's, and that is some pretty old bullet technology. It really doesn't do anything that a good .40 S&W load doesn't do, and since it's not bonded or barrier blind, won't do as well as more modern stuff.

The .41 cal 175 grain Silvertip is aimed more as a hunting bullet. I still don't think that would be my first choice for shooting an elk though.

There are people who have killed elk with a 10mm handgun, but that wouldn't be my preferred way to put elk meat in the freezer.

[Lester Polfus]

Federal claims their 180 gr. Trophy Bonded jsp 10mm @ 1275 is appropriate for elk...

ELK.

http://www.federalpremium.com/products/details/handgun.aspx?id=1071



If his gel test is at all indicative of that loads real performance, I'd be real uncomfortable using it as an Elk load. I was kind of excited when it was first announced, but it's been vaporware so far, and I'm underwhelmed by the numbers from that test.

[GJM]

If his gel test is at all indicative of that loads real performance, I'd be real uncomfortable using it as an Elk load. I was kind of excited when it was first announced, but it's been vaporware so far, and I'm underwhelmed by the numbers from that test.

I am not seeing the gel test data -- can you provide a link?

[Lester Polfus]

I am not seeing the gel test data -- can you provide a link?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTAdVZXLnb0

The Gist:

Impact velocity: 1,270 fps
Penetration: 16.7"
Retained weight: 177.6 gr
Max expansion: 0.635"
Min expansion: 0.594"

Keep in mind this is a hobbyist gel test. He's a good dude and I appreciate his efforts, but I always take a single hobbyist gel test with a grain of salt. Most of the hobbyist guys are testing duty/ccw ammo, which I don't really pay attention to, as we have Doc for that. Some of them do test hunting/field gun type rounds and often there is a really wide range of results. However, sometimes several people will test a load and get fairly similar results, which makes me more inclined to think they are valid.

[DAVIDF]

Full house 10mm is a PITA. I haven't quite reached the point of throwing in the towel since I have too much money into it, but man is it frustrating.

My experience:

1) Stock Gen 3 Glock 29SF - dings the brass with full power loads. Tons of forum research hours. Buy aftermarket recoil spring. Problem solved
2) Accuracy issues - trying to figure out if it is me, the bullets, the dies whatever. Diagnose (probably me). Tons of forum research hours.
3) Buy KKM barrel for better chamber support.
4) Numerous FTF issues (Underwood 180 gr TMJ, Underwood 200gr hardcast, my own 180 gr. loads). More forum research.
5) Next steps - test for magazine issues, try loading to a shorter COL for more reliable feeding (maybe) without causing pressure issues, test grip/wrist lock/elbow lock.
6) While testing - bought pancake holster for SW 629 and some speed loaders. Time to start practicing for woods carry.

I am quickly losing confidence that I have the ability to diagnose the issues. One change seems to fix one problem and then create another with full house loads.

My first Glock 20 was totally unreliable with any ammo. That was an early GGen 4 model. Glock replaced it with a Gen 3. My wife and I now have another Gen 3. I have found them to be most reliable with heavy loads, such as Underwoods 200gr XTP, using the stock RSA and an extremely firm grip. With the heaviest loads our 20's become very grip sensitive. With medium loads, such as a 180gr at 1200fps, they become very grip insensitive. Loads such as Georgia Arms 180gr Gold Dot and Hornady's Critical Duty are reliable with a very light weak hand grip as well as a very firm two hand grip.

I think that certain .40/10mm bullets perform slightly better at moderate 10mm velocities than at .40 S&W velocities. The 180gr XTP, 180gr Gold Dot, 175gr FTX (Critical Duty), and perhaps the 165gr Gold Dot fit into that category.

[SamAdams]

See ya

For various reasons that aren't necessary to go into, I've been away from the computer and the forum for awhile. It's interesting to return and see how various SMEs and experienced people very patiently explain subjects brought up by new posters that have already been covered in the past. (10mm ) These people don't do so in order to explain it to themselves . . . again. They must do so because they have a genuine desire to inform & educate others on important subjects which may very well make a difference in someone's life. For this I thank & applaud these individuals.

That Splat! fellow must have been new. Another guy more interested in running off his mouth and spewing baloney than shutting up so he could learn a few things. Unfortunately, there's nothing new in that either. The loss will be his . . and he'll likely never know it.

[Chuck Haggard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTAdVZXLnb0

The Gist:

Impact velocity: 1,270 fps
Penetration: 16.7"
Retained weight: 177.6 gr
Max expansion: 0.635"
Min expansion: 0.594"

Keep in mind this is a hobbyist gel test. He's a good dude and I appreciate his efforts, but I always take a single hobbyist gel test with a grain of salt. Most of the hobbyist guys are testing duty/ccw ammo, which I don't really pay attention to, as we have Doc for that. Some of them do test hunting/field gun type rounds and often there is a really wide range of results. However, sometimes several people will test a load and get fairly similar results, which makes me more inclined to think they are valid.

Chopping Block is a PF forum member. In my on-line observation of his tests I note he tends to try and do them by the book. It is a one shot result in this case though.

Doc has also tested this load;
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15146-10-mm-Fed-180-gr-TB-JSP&highlight=10mm+bonded

[SMD]

Chopping Block is a PF forum member. In my on-line observation of his tests I note he tends to try and do them by the book. It is a one shot result in this case though.

Doc has also tested this load;
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15146-10-mm-Fed-180-gr-TB-JSP&highlight=10mm+bonded

Earlier in the day I was going to ask if anybody had actually seen this ammo for sale in the wild. I had been looking in vain for almost two years. And then about an hour ago, I received an email from MidwayUSA letting me know they just got some in stock at $32.49/20. Hope that's of use to some of the 10mm fraternity here.

[GJM]

Really interested in a penetration test between:

Trophy Bonded 10mm
Critical Duty 10mm
Critical Duty 45
Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP 45 Super
Lehigh Xtreme penetrator, .40 S&W, as loaded by Lehigh and Underwood

[Lester Polfus]

Chopping Block is a PF forum member. In my on-line observation of his tests I note he tends to try and do them by the book. It is a one shot result in this case though.

Doc has also tested this load;
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15146-10-mm-Fed-180-gr-TB-JSP&highlight=10mm+bonded

Yes. I hope nobody takes what I said as a slight against him. I appreciate his contributions. I am just hesitant to hang my hat on a single test.

I totally forgot Doc tested that load. About the same results.

[DAVIDF]

Really interested in a penetration test between:

Trophy Bonded 10mm
Critical Duty 10mm
Critical Duty 45
Buffalo Bore 230 FMJ-FP 45 Super
Lehigh Xtreme penetrator, .40 S&W, as loaded by Lehigh and Underwood

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/10mm-auto-175-gr-flexlock
http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/45-autop-220gr

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/handgun/critical-duty/175-gr-40-s-and-w


Hornady has added their 10mm Critical Duty to their LE website and included test results. .40S&W added to compare whether the additional velocity of the 10mm loads increases the performance of the flexlock bullet. I think it does slightly. In addition, I do not think their is significant difference in performance of the Critical Duty loads in .45 vs 10mm. As a result, I would prefer two additional rounds in my 20. It is a soft shooting load in a 20.

[GJM]

I have 200 rounds of Underwood .40 with the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator Bullet, 160 rounds of Trophy Bonded 10mm, and 120 rounds of Critical Duty 10mm inbound. Since I already have the Buffalo Bore .45 Super, now all I need is some medium to do the testing on.

[Lester Polfus]

I have 200 rounds of Underwood .40 with the Lehigh Xtreme Penetrator Bullet, 160 rounds of Trophy Bonded 10mm, and 120 rounds of Critical Duty 10mm inbound. Since I already have the Buffalo Bore .45 Super, now all I need is some medium to do the testing on.

Well that would be something I would certainly like to see.

[rauchman]

If a .40 and a 10mm are throwing a 180gr load at roughly the same velocity, is there any kind of recoil advantage to the 10mm? Would the 10mm have less of the typical .40 snappiness in recoil? Is there less pressure in the 10mm for that same bullet /velocity?

[Lester Polfus]

If a .40 and a 10mm are throwing a 180gr load at roughly the same velocity, is there any kind of recoil advantage to the 10mm? Would the 10mm have less of the typical .40 snappiness in recoil? Is there less pressure in the 10mm for that same bullet /velocity?

Yes. 180 grain 10mm loads that are loaded to .40 S&W velocities (roughly 950 to 1050 FPS) are very nice to shoot out of a Glock 20, as are .40 S&W loads fired through a .40 conversion barrel.

As I bring the Glock 20 online as my primary "Field Pistol," I'll likely get into the practice of carrying something like the Hornady Critical Duty load on our way back and forth from the back country.

Honestly, the Glock .40S&W guns should have been built on this frame, or some hybrid combination of the original 9mm frame with a heavier slide, ala the .45 GAP guns.

[GJM]

When using a 40 conversion barrel in a 20/29, is there any issues with magazine length and the shorter .40 cartridge?

[Lester Polfus]

I've never owned a 29. I used an Olympic Arms conversion bbl in a Gen 2 and a Gen 3 Glock 20 many thousands of round without issue. I had access to virtually unlimited free .40 SW cases and I was pinching pennies so it really helped me out. If I intentionally limp wristed it, it felt like it was on the verge of failure, but I never got it to fail.

I haven't bought a conversion barrel for the Gen 4 I bought last November and probably won't, so I can't comment about that. Now I'm just loading 10mm ammo by the bucket and the UPS guy is cussing me every time he has to come to the door.

[DAVIDF]

I also had no issues with a Gen 3 Glock 20 and a Lone Wolf .40 conversion barrel. Even very light Tula .40 loads worked with the stock RSA. The stock magazines seem to work excellent with the .40 loads.