NRA & Trump (Not Surprised With Him) SELLOUT

[Kennydale]

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2016/06/15/nra-statement-re-terror-watch-list-n2178881

I don't want Terrorists to have easy access to GUNS. This NO FLY list is more BS than anything else. Its a Secret Database that probably has yours and my name on it already. We do not get any recourse to fight it in any court. There is way too much wrong here. About 7 Months ago Colion Noir for the NRA posted this:
https://youtu.be/L9Wiqw9u-Y0

[Willard]

Good clip. WRT how the MSM is demanding the evisceration of the 2nd Amendment, and will pay eventually by having the 1st gutted, I see it different. The MSM doesn't really care about anything other than delivering talking points for the left, so they don't need a 1st Amendment. If it leaves, they'd never know it was gone.

[Clay]

1.1 million on terror watch list now.

DHS says "right wing extremists" are as big a danger as the Muslims.

Is it too much of a stretch really to think that this list could be used in a bad way?



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[TCinVA]

You know, I'm really fucking tired of seeing this shit.

There is no shortage of people looking to badmouth the NRA, the only effective gun rights organization at the national level, while having absolutely zero idea how the NRA ILA actually functions or what it does. The folks at the NRA have been on the parapet fighting battles many have never heard of, and yet a bunch of motherfuckers who have never gotten off their couch to do a goddamn thing for gun rights EVER are all over forums and social media running their fetid suck about how we're being sold out.

Maybe wait for the NRA to actually, you know, say something about proposed legislation/policy changes before breaking out the internet outrage machine.

And I'm not even going to get into how fucking retarded it is to badmouth the one presidential candidate who has actually made a point to go to the NRA first and consult with them on how to make changes while the NRA is being scapegoated by the entire cultural elite of our fucking society.

I swear to Christ almighty, we are our own worst fucking enemy.

[JJC]

Where's that slow clap gif when I need it. Well said,TC.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

I heard a pundit say that there are 25K on the terror watch list and a few K on the no-fly list. Didn't google it but what are the real numbers and again I wonder about the ethnic breakdown. If it is mostly Muslims - is that not a discriminatory list? Interesting point.

[41magfan]

If the NRA's critics applied the same logic to the rest of their lives (it ain't perfect, so I don't want anything to do with it) I might respect their opinions, but they don't. They're confusing reasons with excuses.

I'm an Endowment level member of the NRA, and an annual member of the SAF and GOA, but it doesn't mean I agree with any of them 100% on everything. I'm also a member of SCI because I'm a hunter, and I don't agree with everything they do either. Most of the hunters I know don't support an advocacy group, but they sure like to moan and groan when hunters right's are being challenged.

Doing nothing while you're waiting for the perfect thing is mindless. Most critics of the various advocacy organizations think their whining and bitching is "doing something", and that's why we're in the predicament we are now. Too much talk, and not enough do.

[PNWTO]

You know, I'm really fucking tired of seeing this shit.

There is no shortage of people looking to badmouth the NRA, the only effective gun rights organization at the national level, while having absolutely zero idea how the NRA ILA actually functions or what it does. The folks at the NRA have been on the parapet fighting battles many have never heard of, and yet a bunch of motherfuckers who have never gotten off their couch to do a goddamn thing for gun rights EVER are all over forums and social media running their fetid suck about how we're being sold out.

Maybe wait for the NRA to actually, you know, say something about proposed legislation/policy changes before breaking out the internet outrage machine.

And I'm not even going to get into how fucking retarded it is to badmouth the one presidential candidate who has actually made a point to go to the NRA first and consult with them on how to make changes while the NRA is being scapegoated by the entire cultural elite of our fucking society.

I swear to Christ almighty, we are our own worst fucking enemy.

What's your PayPal? I need to huck some beer money your way.

[TAZ]

You know, I'm really fucking tired of seeing this shit.

There is no shortage of people looking to badmouth the NRA, the only effective gun rights organization at the national level, while having absolutely zero idea how the NRA ILA actually functions or what it does. The folks at the NRA have been on the parapet fighting battles many have never heard of, and yet a bunch of motherfuckers who have never gotten off their couch to do a goddamn thing for gun rights EVER are all over forums and social media running their fetid suck about how we're being sold out.

Maybe wait for the NRA to actually, you know, say something about proposed legislation/policy changes before breaking out the internet outrage machine.

And I'm not even going to get into how fucking retarded it is to badmouth the one presidential candidate who has actually made a point to go to the NRA first and consult with them on how to make changes while the NRA is being scapegoated by the entire cultural elite of our fucking society.

I swear to Christ almighty, we are our own worst fucking enemy.

Actually the press release from Cox claimed NRA support for a process by which the people on a Terror watch aka no fly list list should have their NICS check delayed until the FBI has investigated them. They did have a caveat that some due process needs to be there to get off the list. Now maybe I'm misunderstanding their meaning (which is not an impossibility), however I read that as: have a process by which you can get off of the list you are secretly placed on with minimal to possibly no judicial review (how does a sitting Senator and a 4 YO child get on said list of there is oversight?)

So you are a Tea Party Member who gets "mistakenly" put on the list after being audited by "mistake". The abusive spouse you just divorced it coming unhinged and threatens you. You go to buy a gun and are told no cause secret. You either wait to have the FBI clear its backlog and get to you and clear you of any wrong doing so you can buy your gun. All the while you are praying that the little piece of paper some judge issued is enough to stop your ex's ball peen hammer from splitting your skull open. Or you hire a lawyer to go find out why you're secretly denied the purchase; then navigate the easy to follow process to get you off the list so you can go buy your gun. Maybe you now can't afford a gun cause legal fees. All the while you're praying blah, blah, blah.

As I've stated many times now. Various courts have ruled that having to get a free government issued ID to show at a voting booth is discriminatory and wrong. So how s needing to hire a lawyer to buy a gun not discriminatory.

Another point to consider. The FBI and possibly anyone with a shred of common sense does NOT want the list made public or have it impact the daily life of those on it. This isn't cause they are that good at secrets. It's because they don't want those being watched to get tipped off. So guess what will immediately happen to the list. All REAL terrorist suspects will be removed and only random political targets will remain.

I'm willing to bet that the current list contains a very wide demographic, not because they are actual suspects, but because racism. Some special snowflake class can't sue and claim racism cause every demographic is equally represented.

Before I stop whining and writing letter to my reps, the NRA, GOA, Trump and anyone I can think of I want to see the actual laws they are proposing and supporting. Whatever it is it needs to have Constitutional protections in place BEFORE passage. Not this we need something now and we can fix it later BS.

[Jackdog]

The no fly list and the terror watch list are two separate lists. I have coworkers on the watch list and we all have TS clearances. Special dispensation can be given on a case by case review to allow some one on the no fly list to fly.


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[Jackdog]

And no, neither list should be used to deny someone their constitutional rights.


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[hufnagel]

My take was Wayne and the NRA "endorsing" this with Trump is a way to get the camel's nose under the tent of what the Dems REALLY want to get. By doing so they start shining light on the true bullshit they want, and can then attack it directly. "Sure. We'll go for a list. Has to be all above board, with recourse for getting off, Govt has to foot the whole bill, and we'll take National Reciprocity with required enforcement at all levels from state to town." I'm sure the NRA has plenty of Poison Pills they can stuff into any such talks. I'm not really sweating this on the national level. However I live in Nazi Jermany so I AM sweating it on the state level.

[RoyGBiv]

My take was Wayne and the NRA "endorsing" this with Trump is a way to get the camel's nose under the tent of what the Dems REALLY want to get. By doing so they start shining light on the true bullshit they want, and can then attack it directly. "Sure. We'll go for a list. Has to be all above board, with recourse for getting off, Govt has to foot the whole bill, and we'll take National Reciprocity with required enforcement at all levels from state to town." I'm sure the NRA has plenty of Poison Pills they can stuff into any such talks. I'm not really sweating this on the national level. However I live in Nazi Jermany so I AM sweating it on the state level.

^^^ This.

The NRA does not want to give the media fodder for making them a scapegoat, any more than they already do. Sure, we're all for keeping terrorists from buying guns... Let's talk about how we do that without stomping on the constitution. Seems very reasonable, maybe even "Common Sense" to me... The folks at NRA have proven themselves wily and trustworthy, especially so in recent years. Just because some media is making it sound as if capitulation is imminent is no reason to start coiling rope.

[BaiHu]

If the NRA's critics applied the same logic to the rest of their lives (it ain't perfect, so I don't want anything to do with it) I might respect their opinions, but they don't. They're confusing reasons with excuses.

I'm an Endowment level member of the NRA, and an annual member of the SAF and GOA, but it doesn't mean I agree with any of them 100% on everything. I'm also a member of SCI because I'm a hunter, and I don't agree with everything they do either. Most of the hunters I know don't support an advocacy group, but they sure like to moan and groan when hunters right's are being challenged.

Doing nothing while you're waiting for the perfect thing is mindless. Most critics of the various advocacy organizations think their whining and bitching is "doing something", and that's why we're in the predicament we are now. Too much talk, and not enough do.
Perfect is always the enemy of good.

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[Clay]

I'm certainly not blaming the NRA for anything, nor Trump, I just know at some point they're both going to be pressured very hard to capitulate. I wouldn't put money on either one of them standing strong if they feel they can throw these people a bone with a ban on watchlist people, or a magazine ban, etc.

I've been an NRA member since I was a kid, FWIW, and I've supported the NRA-ILA since 1997.

I just wanted to make my position clear.

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[LOKNLOD]

This ain't checkers, it's chess.

It doesn't change much if we're right, if there's a mob of wrong beating down your door with pitchforks.

Trump did us (and the NRA itself) a bit of a dirty deed, by opening the can in the way he did - his "they endorsed me so I'm going to go tell them what's up" tone was shitty. He could have easily met with them and then came out swinging on a unified front but noooooo.... No surprise.

[UNK]

I wonder what is the best method to express a high level of dissatisfaction to Mr Trumps team?

[Drang]

...

Trump did us... a bit of a dirty deed, by opening the can in the way he did - his "they endorsed me so I'm going to go tell them what's up" tone was typical Trump.
FIFY.

[Dddrees]

This ain't checkers, it's chess.

It doesn't change much if we're right, if there's a mob of wrong beating down your door with pitchforks.

Trump did us (and the NRA itself) a bit of a dirty deed, by opening the can in the way he did - his "they endorsed me so I'm going to go tell them what's up" tone was shitty. He could have easily met with them and then came out swinging on a unified front but noooooo.... No surprise.

When's the last time you saw Trump be subtle about anything? Trump is all about Trump.

[ssb]

My take was Wayne and the NRA "endorsing" this with Trump is a way to get the camel's nose under the tent of what the Dems REALLY want to get. By doing so they start shining light on the true bullshit they want, and can then attack it directly. "Sure. We'll go for a list. Has to be all above board, with recourse for getting off, Govt has to foot the whole bill, and we'll take National Reciprocity with required enforcement at all levels from state to town." I'm sure the NRA has plenty of Poison Pills they can stuff into any such talks. I'm not really sweating this on the national level. However I live in Nazi Jermany so I AM sweating it on the state level.

That's kind of how I'm reading into it as well.

The story CNN has been running has Cornyn negotiating with Feinstein on the issue. Schumer/already/ has quotes out there stating that the sort of process guarantees (aka "hoops to jump through") that would be required for some semblance of due process (and even with them, I'm not confident that due process can be achieved with the watch list) are "unacceptable."

Trump getting on board smells like a pre-emptive attack to take some wind out of Hillary's talking points more than anything else.

[hufnagel]

That's kind of how I'm reading into it as well.

The story CNN has been running has Cornyn negotiating with Feinstein on the issue. Schumer/already/ has quotes out there stating that the sort of process guarantees (aka "hoops to jump through") that would be required for some semblance of due process (and even with them, I'm not confident that due process can be achieved with the watch list) are "unacceptable."

Trump getting on board smells like a pre-emptive attack to take some wind out of Hillary's talking points more than anything else.

There's also a bit of the SQUIRREL aspect to all of this as well; if you know your opposition is going to try and hawk in on something, make it LOOK like you want it to, tie them up with discussions, and slowly erode their talking points. "Well they want the whole pie, and that's not fair, so we're trying to come to some middle ground, but they won't budge." Make them look like the Bad Guys since they're always screaming "compromise."

I still contend the NRA "caved" on the whole NICS thing simply because they knew it wasn't going to do jack shit (which it doesn't) and it allowed them room to get things like the AWB to have a sunset date.

IF the NRA and we have to "cave" to some kind of Secret Squirrel list (with procedures in place for fighting your place on it) AND we can get National Reciprocity with Teeth as trade, I'd be willing to take that dance with the Devil. If we assume Trump wins POTUS, and he really does get to stack SCOTUS with true conservatives (seriously, Ted Cruz, if Trump knocks and offers it, you better fucking take it or I'll kick you in the teeth myself) that list would get demolished by SCOTUS, along with a bunch of others. Like Loknlod said, this is chess; hell it's 3-D chess. Let's all not get the Trigglypuff vapors over Wayne and Donald doing what they do best... TALK.

[Mitch]

Never mind...I need to step away from this and let my blood pressure come back down.


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[pangloss]

May I suggest that we all contact our representatives and senators and express our views regarding new gun control laws. Sending letters to my three via this NRA website (LINK (https://act.nraila.org/composeletters.aspx?AlertID=261)) took less than 30 seconds. I think I sent a total of 36 separate communications to various elected officials following the Newtown shooting. Obviously some people received more than one communication from me. Sending a few letters takes less time than writing one medium length forum post, so there's no reason not to do it.

[BWT]

From the NRA-ILA


The NRA's position on this issue has not changed. The NRA believes that terrorists should not be allowed to purchase or possess firearms, period. Anyone on a terror watchlist who tries to buy a gun should be thoroughly investigated by the FBI and the sale delayed while the investigation is ongoing. If an investigation uncovers evidence of terrorist activity or involvement, the government should be allowed to immediately go to court, block the sale, and arrest the terrorist. At the same time, due process protections should be put in place that allow law-abiding Americans who are wrongly put on a watchlist to be removed.

https://www.nraila.org/articles/20160615/nra-statement-on-terror-watchlists

I figured it would be best to get it from the Horse's mouth.

God Bless,

Brandon

ETA: I contacted my representatives, and thank you for the information to do so. I do feel that it's meaningful to engage our representatives in this process.

One of them happened to be Trey Gowdy who I thought went on an epic rant back in December about this exact issue on a DHS official.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pT50mZ0QQU

[Clay]

Trey Gowdy should be the U.S. Attorney General.

Ted Cruz's response -

http://johngaltfla.com/wordpress/2016/06/16/senator-ted-cruz-delivers-a-blistering-response-to-obama-and-the-gun-control-party-video/

[Kennydale]

You know, I'm really fucking tired of seeing this shit.

There is no shortage of people looking to badmouth the NRA, the only effective gun rights organization at the national level, while having absolutely zero idea how the NRA ILA actually functions or what it does. The folks at the NRA have been on the parapet fighting battles many have never heard of, and yet a bunch of motherfuckers who have never gotten off their couch to do a goddamn thing for gun rights EVER are all over forums and social media running their fetid suck about how we're being sold out.

Maybe wait for the NRA to actually, you know, say something about proposed legislation/policy changes before breaking out the internet outrage machine.

And I'm not even going to get into how fucking retarded it is to badmouth the one presidential candidate who has actually made a point to go to the NRA first and consult with them on how to make changes while the NRA is being scapegoated by the entire cultural elite of our fucking society.

I swear to Christ almighty, we are our own worst fucking enemy.

Not looking to get into a personal PISSING MATCH WITH YOU. I'm still debating what to do in November HOLD MY NOSE AND VOTE TRUMP. Or something other (Like stay home or write in Ted Cruz). TRUMPTARDS don't seem to like facing the fact their man is STILL A LIBERAL DEMOCRAT. and has flipped multiple times on many items. Frankly i still think he entered the race FOR HILLARY to dilute the Republican primary and get Ted Cruz off the ticket (The only real candidate that would have trounced Hillary or Bernie !

[Mr Pink]

May I suggest that we all contact our representatives and senators and express our views regarding new gun control laws. Sending letters to my three via this NRA website (LINK (https://act.nraila.org/composeletters.aspx?AlertID=261)) took less than 30 seconds.This is an excellent idea and we should spread the word. At this point we NEED to do everything we can. If you're already a member of the NRA, then attend an NRA Instructor course. If you're an NRA Instructor, volunteer and give free classes or assist other instructors. Education is the key.

The NRA is much smaller than we think...their employees are overworked and underpaid, but they're still out there doing what they can.

[BWT]

This is an excellent idea and we should spread the word. At this point we NEED to do everything we can. If you're already a member of the NRA, then attend an NRA Instructor course. If you're an NRA Instructor, volunteer and give free classes or assist other instructors. Education is the key.

The NRA is much smaller than we think...their employees are overworked and underpaid, but they're still out there doing what they can.

Agreed, please fill it out. It'll take just as long to write a reply response to this thread or really do anything else.

I'll stop posting for the night after this.

But back when 41P was open for comments in the Fall of 2013; I posted it all over different forums, contacted many different officials, etc. I found that taking just an hour or two every night for a few weeks; I was able to get a lot done. I was stunned how much people wouldn't be involved but would complain about it. Especially when all I asked them to do was fill out the form on a website, gave them basically an outline of what was happening, my comments (that I wrote in such a way to be re-used by others). I was basically asking to go to this website, fill out a form, copy and paste my comments, spend 20 seconds changing it how you'd like, and you're done.

Congratulations you were one of the 9,500-ish people to comment on something that will now affect 320,000,000. It was baffling. Thank God, it was able to be tamed down to getting rid of CLEO certification and just requiring fingerprints and notification; that was literally the difference between people (in many locations) being unable to own NFA items or not.

I would say use that NRA-ILA form, it lists your representatives, and has a message that emails all of them.

Speaking of which, I need to finish a Form 1 this weekend and get it mailed.

God Bless,

Brandon

[Kennydale]

If anyone thinks that's TC's message qualifies as "BULLYING" or "threatening language" or even directed at you personally, then maybe there's another "quality forum" out there that's a better fit for you.

Just a general FYI to everyone. It is true that we ask you to use the report post button for anything that you deem inapproriate, but if you are so incensed by someone's post (that I haven't even read yet) that it seems like a good idea passive-aggressively insult the forum and/or the staff when making your report, it's probably a good idea to take a few minutes and breath before clicking the Send Report button.

Also, if you are going to express your dissatisfaction with the "TONE of debate" when reporting a post it's probably a good idea, or at least just polite, to be mindful of your own tone when doing so.

https://pistol-forum.com/misc.php?do=showrules

Not sure what tone i had but OK...., SUGGEST you read your own CODE OF CONDUCT !

I guess I am that new kid on the Block and don't know the pecking order here.

[breakingtime91]

https://pistol-forum.com/misc.php?do=showrules

Not sure what tone i had but OK...., SUGGEST you read your own CODE OF CONDUCT !

I guess I am that new kid on the Block and don't know the pecking order here.

I'm sorry that your offended that TC called you out but you needed it. If you are truly that offended that you needed to call out a staff member that has been here since the beginning, has given out valuable advice, and done great things for this forum since its inception you should leave. I don't usually get involved in these affairs and I'm sorry staff if its out of bounds but its people like you that make our SME want to leave this forum. Grow the fuck up and if your insulted, suck it the fuck up, and then shut up and color.

[Duces Tecum]

I may be wrong, but this sort of thing seems to come up almost every time there's a presidential election. Both sides use the gun issue to squeeze donations from their own people.

I'd be surprised if linking guns to that terror watch list thingie survives "Heller", if it ever gets that far. There's no leverage for Trump to cooperate with democrats in adding more gun restrictions. People who support them will vote demo anyway, and those who oppose them will stay home the day of the election. Trump can only lose support. If, however, he does that gun-free zone bit then he re-motivates his own base. Or maybe something about "one license to rule them all" or something. It would seem that Trump has more to gain by motivating his base rather than de-motivating them.

But, like I said, I may be wrong.

[BaiHu]

Sorry if I missed this, but I jumped over the code of misconduct stuff.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/jun/16/doj-overrules-fbi-gun-sales-debate/


Attorney General Loretta Lynch overruled FBI Director James B. Comey on Thursday, saying the Obama administration does support denying firearms sales to those on terrorist watch lists and that it can be done without harming investigations.
Mr. Comey last year had told Congress that denying sales could “blow” his agents’ investigations into potential terrorists. But his superiors at the Justice Department issued a statement Thursday saying they want to see Congress approve the “no-fly, no-buy” plan Democrats are pursuing.
“The amendment gives the Justice Department an important additional tool to prevent the sale of guns to suspected terrorists by licensed firearms dealers while ensuring protection of the department’s operational and investigative sensitivities,” department spokesman Dena Iverson said in a statement.
In the wake of the weekend’s terror-related shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando, Democrats have zeroed in on guns, arguing that Omar Mateen’s rampage could have been avoided had Congress enacted a ban on gun sales to those on the government’s watch lists, which are supposed to detail those known or suspected to have ties to terrorism.
The FBI has poked holes in that theory, saying that while Mateen had been listed while under investigation a few years ago, he had been removed after the agency was unable to make a case against him.

[MDS]

My credit report says I'm dead. Does anyone think a terror list will be better managed?

(I'm still waiting for the CIA to call me for a "ghost assassin" job. At least, that's my excuse for not doing the fuckton of paperwork needed to take my dead father's stuff out of my credit report.)

[BaiHu]

My credit report says I'm dead. Does anyone think a terror list will be better managed?

(I'm still waiting for the CIA to call me for a "ghost assassin" job. At least, that's my excuse for not doing the fuckton of paperwork needed to take my dead father's stuff out of my credit report.)
I've never met you, so AFAIK, you're just a troll-bot created by Tom Jones [emoji12]

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[breakingtime91]

My credit report says I'm dead. Does anyone think a terror list will be better managed?

(I'm still waiting for the CIA to call me for a "ghost assassin" job. At least, that's my excuse for not doing the fuckton of paperwork needed to take my dead father's stuff out of my credit report.)


Ghost assassins need managers/logistics. I'll manage and I heard we have a experienced supply clerk named Nyeti

[MDS]

Ghost assassins need managers/logistics. I'll manage and I heard we have a experienced supply clerk named Nyeti
Hell, who needs the CIA, then? [emoji14]

[NEPAKevin]

I may be wrong, but this sort of thing seems to come up almost every time there's a presidential election. Both sides use the gun issue to squeeze donations from their own people.



Make a small donation to just about any political group or person, just one time, and your spam box will likely be inundated 24/7/365 with urgent requests for immediate action, and more donations, to said group or person and any other group or person that they sell your information to, until the end of days. Used car salesmen and realtors have nothing on political hacks.