PDA

View Full Version : Shooting Low....Really? My Personal Glock G21 Epiphany..



JonInWA
06-14-2016, 05:59 PM
I have a Glock G21. It's been a problem-free Gen 3 gun, in the original-style (i.e., "big butt") I've fired the SF and Gen4 variants, and while they're good G21s in their own right, for me in particular they didn't seem to offer anything specifically overwhelmingly desirable that would compel me to switch from mine.

Although I shoot it decently enough, and certainly feel comfortable in using and carrying it both for defensive and recreational (IDPA, GSSF) purposes, out of all of my Glocks (G17, G19, G22, G34) it is the one that requires the most conscious effort for me to shoot well. I'd performed the following mods to it: Standard connector replaced with Dot connector, flat slide stop replaced with Glock extended slide stop/release; sights replaced-first with Glock steels (which worked acceptably well enough), and in the last year or so with Warren-Sevigny Carrys. For years I ran it with a segment of a mountain bike innertube to increase receiver gripiness, but I recently removed it after realizing vis-a-vis my Gen4 G22 and HK VP40 grip experimentation that for me, smaller is definitely better. The original triggerbar was replaced years ago with the now standard upgraded/improved OEM triggerbar, and I've added a butt plug to preclude foreign material from entering the heel cavity and potentially adversely affecting operation of the action components.

I felt that the gun shot slightly low-based on my GSSF and IDPA match experiences. Subsequently, I compensated by aiming slightly higher on a target to compensate. Annoyed by having to do this, after last weekend's GSSF match I was tempted to do an immediate hardware fix (i.e., going from a .215 high Warren front sight to the .245 higher one); I fortunately sensibly held off-and first did some square-range known distance zero confirmation drills with gridded targets.

Yeah, you've all probably guessed where this is going...Amazingly enough, the problem is NOT with the gun, or with the existing sights. It was with ME, and my triggerpull. I was yanking, or flinching, or yanking down reflexively on the trigger at the break point. When I properly aligned the sights, when I properly pulled the trigger, the gun literally tore the center out of the bullseye areas of the targets-and with various targets, both large and smaller, and at various distances (primarily between 10' and 50')-all using the center-hold POA/POI I prefer.

I've realized a couple of things: 1). Given that the frame is larger (and my index with it isn't nearly as effortless and instinctive as it is on my smaller-framed G17/19/34/22), I'm gonna intrinsically be more challenged-so I need to establish, and reinforce proper sight acquisition/alignment and shooting/triggerpull techniques, and

2).I've also decided to try something that on it's face might seem counter-intuitive: I've switched the lighter coil trigger spring (inducing a 2-stage triggerpull) for the heavier, but single-stage triggerpull of the NY1 spring-also with a more forceable, and discernible reset point. While it's heavier, the potential disadvantages are minimized by 1) it's somewhat rolling, surprise break characteristics, and 2) that it's heaviness is somewhat offset by using the Dot connector which also adds to the rolling and discernible trigger break point.

I'll see how this works, with both dry- and live-fire. If it doesn't, I may go back to the original coil trigger spring, with its lighter triggerpull, or reluctantly realize that the Gen 3 G21 just isn't totally ideal for me, and move to a Gen4 G21 (or away from the G21 platform period). Like it or not, this is really forcing me to objectively evaluate , experiment, and re-evaluate.

Similar thoughts, experiences, critiques appreciated.

Best, Jon

GJM
06-14-2016, 07:06 PM
I felt that the gun shot slightly low-based on my GSSF and IDPA match experiences. Subsequently, I compensated by aiming slightly higher on a target to compensate. Annoyed by having to do this, after last weekend's GSSF match I was tempted to do an immediate hardware fix (i.e., going from a .215 high Warren front sight to the .245 higher one); I fortunately sensibly held off-and first did some square-range known distance zero confirmation drills with gridded targets.
Similar thoughts, experiences, critiques appreciated.

Best, Jon

You may have mistyped, but going from a .215 to .245 tall front will move the POI lower not higher. Just checking, but you are aware that the large frame Glock pistols require a taller rear or shorter front sight for proper POI. For example, the front sight on the HD large frame Glock is .200 tall where the regular frame front is .215.

Before you assign error to the indian, I would check your sight dimensions.

UNK
06-14-2016, 08:25 PM
http://pistol-training.com/archives/1358

BJJ
06-14-2016, 08:29 PM
I think the only reasonable course of action is for you to buy a Glock 41.

Just sayin.

Nephrology
06-15-2016, 08:54 AM
You may have mistyped, but going from a .215 to .245 tall front will move the POI lower not higher. Just checking, but you are aware that the large frame Glock pistols require a taller rear or shorter front sight for proper POI. For example, the front sight on the HD large frame Glock is .200 tall where the regular frame front is .215.

Before you assign error to the indian, I would check your sight dimensions.

yeah - I would definitely check your sights by benching the pistol at 25yds.

In testing my 3 full size glocks (2x G17s and a 35) I found they all shot about 4-6" high at 25yds with the Warren Tacticals + .215" FS posts. I replaced them with .245" FSPs and they are all POA=POI more or less.

That said, I still of course pull shots low when pushing my speed out of the holster - both before and after changing the front sights - but that is an altogether different issue entirely.

GJM
06-15-2016, 09:01 AM
http://pistol-training.com/archives/1358

I miss Todd's uniquely "Todd perspective" on things.

JonInWA
06-15-2016, 12:01 PM
I miss Todd's uniquely "Todd perspective" on things.

So do we all.

Best, Jon

JonInWA
06-15-2016, 12:37 PM
GJM. you're absolutely correct-to correct for low shooting where the front sight is the culprit is to go to a lower, not higher front sight-since mine is the .215 height, had the problem truly been with the sight, I would have needed to have gone with the lower .185 front, the lower Warren alternative. Unfortunately, in my case, it definitely is the indian, not the bow.

I've definitively established that when I use proper sight alignment and proper trigger press/control, I get beautifully centered 1.5" - 2" groups, consistently at varying distances, with a center-hold POA/POI.

One of the frustrating things initially is that there really doesn't seem to be a firm consensus as to exactly what front sight height is the proper one for the G21; some sites specify .215, others lump the G2/G21 in with the long slide Glocks, and specify .245. Others state that there's variations (either in the guns or the sights) sufficient that the proper front sight height needs to be established for a gun on an individualized basis )that one really threw me-for crying out loud, these aren't bespoke flintlock rifles, they're a mass-produced Glock....) The front sight on mine is the .215 one, which based on my square range time with gridded targets is indeed the correct front sight height-at least for my G21....The rest is on me.

Best, Jon

JonInWA
06-15-2016, 12:39 PM
http://pistol-training.com/archives/1358

Excellent read (although it would appear that a number of the thread respondents somehow completely missed Todd's point...)..

Best, Jon

JonInWA
06-15-2016, 12:42 PM
I think the only reasonable course of action is for you to buy a Glock 41.

Just sayin.

The MOS variant with optical sighting to totally dodge my iron-sight issue, of course....And of COURSE a new G41 will miraculously resolve my trigger control issue!

And yeah, you made my wife's "bad boy" list.

Best, Jon

TiroFijo
06-16-2016, 02:49 PM
http://pistol-training.com/archives/1358

+1000

I remember when I took my nephew shooting, he is like 6'3" and 240 lbs, with stronger arms than me.
He gripped the gun well, but had a strong, "repetitive" jerk of the trigger, and grouped nicely but about 2' low at 25 m. If I didn't know that the gun was printing POA/POI at that distance with that load (and knew that such POI variations are almost imposible due to hardware reasons), I would had thought that there was something wrong with the sights or gun.

HCountyGuy
06-22-2016, 01:41 AM
Yeah, you've all probably guessed where this is going...Amazingly enough, the problem is NOT with the gun, or with the existing sights. It was with ME, and my triggerpull. I was yanking, or flinching, or yanking down reflexively on the trigger at the break point. When I properly aligned the sights, when I properly pulled the trigger, the gun literally tore the center out of the bullseye areas of the targets-and with various targets, both large and smaller, and at various distances (primarily between 10' and 50')-all using the center-hold POA/POI I prefer.

I've struggled with this very issue for quite a while. Enough time at the range and I can start to resolve it, but any moderate length between range trips and it creeps back up on me.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11315-Dry-fire-ok-live-fire-not-so-much

UNK
06-22-2016, 06:16 AM
The answers to your problem are in this thread. Everything goes back to understanding and executing the fundamentals. An understanding of Bullseye shooting also would be most beneficial.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3592-ToddG-for-Beginners

Bullseye
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/fulford.htm
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ron2.htm
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ron3.htm



I've struggled with this very issue for quite a while. Enough time at the range and I can start to resolve it, but any moderate length between range trips and it creeps back up on me.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?11315-Dry-fire-ok-live-fire-not-so-much

JonInWA
06-22-2016, 02:06 PM
The answers to your problem are in this thread. Everything goes back to understanding and executing the fundamentals. An understanding of Bullseye shooting also would be most beneficial.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?3592-ToddG-for-Beginners

Bullseye
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/fulford.htm
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ron2.htm
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/ron3.htm

Sigh...Probably. And realizing that there are simply pistols that I inherently simply index better with than others, short-cutting (but not eliminating) the training/practice curve. Thanks for posting.

Best, Jon

UNK
06-22-2016, 05:27 PM
misfire

JonInWA
06-23-2016, 11:49 AM
No problem-sometimes collateral damage can have unintentionally applicable/advantageous results.

Best, Jon