ARs for new (panic?) buyers

[rob_s]

As expected, the requests are starting to come in from non-gun-owning friends, family, and coworkers. Predictably, they are asking what AR they should buy. While my temptation is to get on my high horse and say "no AR, you don't even own a Glock 19 yet!", that's probably (a) not helping and (b) more likely to turn them away. The AR has the potential to be the gateway drug to not only the world of guns, but then of shooting, then of training and competing, and then of political beliefs and leanings. So my thinking is that they should be encouraged to buy whatever TYPE of gun they are initially interested in but we should be guiding them towards a gun with the following features:

1) reasonable price. I think that puts most people in the <$1k range, possibly as high as $1.5k.
2) modern features. whether we believe in them or not, folks want (or think they want, or will want almost immediately) things like a mid-length gas system and extended, free-float, handguard.
3) highest possibly quality. I actually put this last instead of first because it probably matters least given the goal of getting a gun into their hands. While I think the 6920 is a better gun than the DPMs with the keylok handguard, they think they know what they want and the 6920 aint it.
4) complete gun. For someone that might be willing to tinker I'd suggest the 6920 OEM and a rail and some furniture. But I don't think most first-time buyers want to, or should, be tinkering.
5) readily available. Obviously the panic that will ensue in the coming weeks will affect this, but I think that most first-time buyers will want to be able to walk into a local gunshop and walk out with a rifle. Wich also rules out the 6920 OEM and similar.

I'm racking my brain, and I can't come up with one. I'm still trying to stear people towards the 6920 complete gun in the absense of anything worth a damn that has a rail on it and retails for ~$1k.

[Chuck Haggard]

S&W Sport for a basic guns, add some MagPul

This one is typically less than $1000 street price;
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_786010_-1_787653___ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

[Guinnessman]

Rob,

If I were buying a rifle now, the BCM factory offerings with a rail, or the Daniel Defense rifles would fit the bill nicely for a new shooter. The only problem with these rifles is the fact that they are in the upper end of the price range you mentioned.

The other downside with BCM is their availability at your local dealer. I have seen quite a few Daniel Defense rifles in some of the local shops.

If any of my friends come to me for advice, I will happily walk them thru the process of ordering online and shipping to a local FFL that does transfers for $20. If given the chance to "Lead a Horse to water," my pick would be a factory Colt all day long. The OEM you mention or a simple Magpul edition would be great.

The data points of your "Chart" are still my personal gold standard, and with the affordability of quality AR's today, it's time to buy once, cry once.

[WDW]

I just bought a new blemish BCM complete lower for $320 along with an Aero middy upper w/BCG & charging handle for $359. That's a complete, ready to shoot, top tier gun for a total of $679....hard to beat that

[rob_s]

Most of the shops in my area that I've been in all seem to carry Daniel Defense, oftentimes to a staggering degree when it comes to choosing between models. Because of that, so far my default answer has tended that way with the suggestion to look for a "LW" version. But, those guns are still $1500+, which can be hard for a new buyer to swallow.

I don't bother trying to counsel people through online buying anymore, nor do I volunteer to help with assembly, etc. It just becomes a nightmare in terms of coordinating our schedules, answering "dumb" questions, etc.

[GJM]

I love long guns. In Alaska, I walk around with a long gun in my hands almost daily. Nobody thinks twice about someone walking around with a long gun around here.

Not criticizing the thread, 'cause we always need an AR, but in urban areas, for non LE I see the role of a long gun almost exclusively for home defense, and in a very limited number of situations outside your home. For a non LE person, I just don't see carrying a long gun around in the vehicle as very useful. You have to protect it from being stolen. It is added weight to carry in and out of the hotel room. It may not sit well with LE if you get pulled over. And, in an Orlando type situation, you will almost certainly be fighting with the gear that is on your body.

Not sure about you, but I don't want to be the dark haired male, not in uniform, grabbing my long gun and heading into a shooting situation, as it seems like a good way to identify yourself as a shoot target to an active shooter and law enforcement.

[ASH556]

Rob,
I'm in a lot the same boat as you. Same thing happened after Sandy Hook. Things took off pretty quickly then and within a couple weeks everyone I knew well had unloaded their personal AR for double, triple, or more what it was really worth. The buyers didn't even care what configuration or caliber it was.

It's the old horse to water problem that we face here. Heck, there are long-time employees of the shop where I work as an armorer who STILL come to me with whatever cheap crap flavor of the week rifle they bought on special and want me to "bless" it for them as being good. I used to take the time to check things like gas key screws, castle nut staking, feedramps, etc. At this point, I don't even bother anymore. All they get from me anymore is "yeah man, looks sweet, glad you like it." FACT: it doesn't matter for a couple reasons:
1) they are unlikely to own the rifle longer than a month because they are collectors/traders, not shooters.
2) it won't get shot enough to matter if at all; see # 1.
3) hurting their feelings about their purchase won't help

If it's someone who shows me they're serious about learning, then I will adjust my approach, but for 99% of folks that ask me about AR's, the above is what they get.

[rob_s]

I love long guns. In Alaska, I walk around with a long gun in my hands almost daily. Nobody thinks twice about someone walking around with a long gun around here.

Not criticizing the thread, 'cause we always need an AR, but in urban areas, for non LE I see the role of a long gun almost exclusively for home defense, and in a very limited number of situations outside your home. For a non LE person, I just don't see carrying a long gun around in the vehicle as very useful. You have to protect it from being stolen. It is added weight to carry in and out of the hotel room. It may not sit well with LE if you get pulled over. And, in an Orlando type situation, you will almost certainly be fighting with the gear that is on your body.

Not sure about you, but I don't want to be the dark haired male, not in uniform, grabbing my long gun and heading into a shooting situation, as it seems like a good way to identify yourself as a shoot target to an active shooter and law enforcement.

Mostly irrelevent to the thread, Alaska or no.

This isn't about "need", or "should", but is about the guy that asks what they should buy and what you'd suggest they buy, given the assumption that we're not judging their use case but that we see a benefit to more good people buying more "evil" guns.

[GJM]

Mostly irrelevent to the thread, Alaska or no.

This isn't about "need", or "should", but is about the guy that asks what they should buy and what you'd suggest they buy, given the assumption that we're not judging their use case but that we see a benefit to more good people buying more "evil" guns.

I am OK with all that. Don't take it personally, I was looking for a place to say what I did, about the usefulness of long guns in an Orlando type event, and your thread happened to come along. I guess I should have started a new thread. I use every event like this as an excuse to buy three or four more ARs.

[Mr_White]

The AR has the potential to be the gateway drug to not only the world of guns, but then of shooting, then of training and competing, and then of political beliefs and leanings.

I like this and I agree.

[LOKNLOD]

I like this and I agree.

Me too.

I think the right approach is,
"Here are some good options for starter ARs, but have you thought x, y, and z about concealed carry?" Yadda yadda.

The more people buy and own ARs etc the more have skin in the game in the gun world. This is core to grass roots level political victory on the issue.

[rob_s]

I am OK with all that. Don't take it personally, I was looking for a place to say what I did, about the usefulness of long guns in an Orlando type event, and your thread happened to come along. I guess I should have started a new thread. I use every event like this as an excuse to buy three or four more ARs.

This is probably a good place.
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20944-The-Changing-Makeup-of-Our-Day-to-Day-Lives-and-Your-Trainin

[RJ]

Uhhh...following.

[GJM]

Uhhh...following.

Just do what I did after see this stupid thread -- buy a Colt 6720. I got two. One in honor of our outgoing POTUS and one for the incoming one.

My reaction to any event like this is to buy a few Colt ARs and a few Glocks.

[RJ]

^^^ Copy.

I think first priority is getting a CCW holster for the VP9.

But yeah, long gun is in mind these days so thread is um...useful. :cool:

[GJM]

^^^ Copy.

I think first priority is getting a CCW holster for the VP9.

But yeah, long gun is in mind these days so thread is um...useful. :cool:

It would make shooting groups at 25 a tad easier......

[Beat Trash]

Just do what I did after see this stupid thread -- buy a Colt 6720. I got two. One in honor of our outgoing POTUS and one for the incoming one.

My reaction to any event like this is to buy a few Colt ARs and a few Glocks.

I agree. A Colt 6720 with a set of MagPUl MOE SL hand guards and stock is an amazingly light and handle little carbine. I use one for when I travel.

https://www.armsunlimited.com/Colt-AR15-A3-Tactical-Patrol-Lightweight-Carbine-p/ar6720.htm

[farscott]

S&W Sport for a basic guns, add some MagPul

This one is typically less than $1000 street price;
http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product4_750001_750051_786010_-1_787653___ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

I would also suggest the S&W Sport models for new shooters. S&W is making a good gun for the price, everyone recognizes the brand name, and S&W has the manufacturing capabilities and purchasing power to get parts when others cannot. I like the Colt guns as well, but those are already sold. My local dealer had five Colt AR rifles on Saturday at 3:00 PM and none on Monday at noon. This time I bet even the RRA Predator that survived the Sandy Hook panic at the local dealer sells.

[Bigghoss]

Grabbed a S&W Sport II today. If it turns out to suck I'm blaming ya'll. ;) Had to pay a little more for it just because that's how LGS' are. Would have had to drive all the way to Denver to even have a chance of finding one under $600 and if they still have them in stock I'd be surprised.

Also confirmed with the dealer that I'm allowed to buy full capacity mags in here in Colorado because I'm an armed security guard for the feds. So I bought 3 more Pmags for $15 each.

[farscott]

I have seen more references to the panic buying starting. G&R Tactical says he got cleaned out of BCM and Colt AR rifles over the weekend. Another poster on a board said that RSR sold 130K PMags in the last few days. Since RSR is a distributor, I assume that would be dealers placing orders for those magazines. Ammo prices have definitely increased in the last few days.

[LOKNLOD]

I have seen more references to the panic buying starting. G&R Tactical says he got cleaned out of BCM and Colt AR rifles over the weekend. Another poster on a board said that RSR sold 130K PMags in the last few days. Since RSR is a distributor, I assume that would be dealers placing orders for those magazines. Ammo prices have definitely increased in the last few days.

I had some ammo in a website "cart" Sunday morning, and hesitated to look at a couple more things before hitting submit...and it had gone up by $10/box when I got home from church to complete the order :/

[FOG]

I ordered a 640 round case of 7.62x51 last week from SGAmmo, now it's up $28 higher than a week ago plus they're almost sold out.

Sent from my SM-G900R4 using Tapatalk

[Skeeter]

My kind of car dealer!

https://www.facebook.com/hmp1000/posts/1020679654678963


Need a car?

Want a free AR-15 also?
Get both at Hagan’s. Check out our “Featured Used Cars” page to see the vehicles that qualify. Only valid while stock of these rifles lasts. You must pass a background check. Other restrictions may apply. Call, email, or message us to get more information.

[saoirse]

I'm new & I hope someone can answer my questions. I can't figure out what makes an AR an assault rifle. It's a rifle that fires a single round per trigger squeeze. Any rifle can kill, and a shotgun with buckshot or slugs is a nasty but effective weapon.

There are wild stories about AR bullets that explode on impact and one guy with lots if opinions claims that anyone who took high school shop can convert an AR-15 to an M-16 in a few minutes.

I find most of what's in the press to be speculation at best. I haven't seen the Orlando ME's determination of whether the dead were shot with the rifle or the handgun some say the shooter also had.

None of this reduces the tragic loss of life in that club in Orlando. Whether it was ISIL-related or simple hate, it was terrorism. Mick Collins is quoted as saying "The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize." The shooter in Orlando certainly did that, but that's on him, not the firearms.

I'm not convinced trying to negotiate with the nut was a good idea, but those procedures are often set by people not on the scene. Wouldn't a few flash-bang grenades evened the odds for LE on scene? The club patrons would have been disoriented, but the shooter would have also been disoriented. Is that a reliable technique?

My experience is with handguns and really know little about long guns.

Any straight answers would be appreciated. Thanks. And all you LEOs please be careful, you're needed and appreciated.

[Drang]

I'm new & I hope someone can answer my questions. I can't figure out what makes an AR an assault rifle.

Hyperbole.

You'll see may references to "evil features". The Clinton era Assault Weapon Ban relied on "features" like a pistol grip, flash suppressor, etc. to define the eeeeeeevil black rifles.

So, yeah, it's dumb.

[Andy T]

Assault rifle is a technical term that defines a weapon capable of firing more than one round per trigger press. This term can be incorrectly applied to semi-auto only AR-15 pattern rifles.
There is another term - "Assault weapon" - this is a political term created for the Clinton ban, meant do identify scary looking guns.



I'm new & I hope someone can answer my questions. I can't figure out what makes an AR an assault rifle. It's a rifle that fires a single round per trigger squeeze. Any rifle can kill, and a shotgun with buckshot or slugs is a nasty but effective weapon.

There are wild stories about AR bullets that explode on impact and one guy with lots if opinions claims that anyone who took high school shop can convert an AR-15 to an M-16 in a few minutes.

I find most of what's in the press to be speculation at best. I haven't seen the Orlando ME's determination of whether the dead were shot with the rifle or the handgun some say the shooter also had.

None of this reduces the tragic loss of life in that club in Orlando. Whether it was ISIL-related or simple hate, it was terrorism. Mick Collins is quoted as saying "The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize." The shooter in Orlando certainly did that, but that's on him, not the firearms.

I'm not convinced trying to negotiate with the nut was a good idea, but those procedures are often set by people not on the scene. Wouldn't a few flash-bang grenades evened the odds for LE on scene? The club patrons would have been disoriented, but the shooter would have also been disoriented. Is that a reliable technique?

My experience is with handguns and really know little about long guns.

Any straight answers would be appreciated. Thanks. And all you LEOs please be careful, you're needed and appreciated.

[WOLFIE]

Ruger AR 556 : Cold hammer forged barrel with a 1 in 8 twist. M4 feed ramps. Gas key is staked. 6 to 7 hundred dollars.

[Bigghoss]

Ruger AR 556 : Cold hammer forged barrel with a 1 in 8 twist. M4 feed ramps. Gas key is staked. 6 to 7 hundred dollars.

Not to be confused with the SR-556

[WOLFIE]

Not to be confused with the SR-556

Very true.

[Dddrees]

I'm new & I hope someone can answer my questions. I can't figure out what makes an AR an assault rifle. It's a rifle that fires a single round per trigger squeeze. Any rifle can kill, and a shotgun with buckshot or slugs is a nasty but effective weapon.

There are wild stories about AR bullets that explode on impact and one guy with lots if opinions claims that anyone who took high school shop can convert an AR-15 to an M-16 in a few minutes.

I find most of what's in the press to be speculation at best. I haven't seen the Orlando ME's determination of whether the dead were shot with the rifle or the handgun some say the shooter also had.

None of this reduces the tragic loss of life in that club in Orlando. Whether it was ISIL-related or simple hate, it was terrorism. Mick Collins is quoted as saying "The purpose of terrorism is to terrorize." The shooter in Orlando certainly did that, but that's on him, not the firearms.

I'm not convinced trying to negotiate with the nut was a good idea, but those procedures are often set by people not on the scene. Wouldn't a few flash-bang grenades evened the odds for LE on scene? The club patrons would have been disoriented, but the shooter would have also been disoriented. Is that a reliable technique?

My experience is with handguns and really know little about long guns.

Any straight answers would be appreciated. Thanks. And all you LEOs please be careful, you're needed and appreciated.



The fact that you can get magazines which hold so many rounds. The more rounds you have ready available the more times it can be fired without reloading.

It requires a trigger pull for every round, however it requires very little to pull the trigger thus being able to fire a lot of ammunition rather quickly.

The AR 15 has very little recoil which makes it an extremely easy weapon to fire.

The bullet it fires often does not continue in a straight line once it is fired and it hits soft tissue. It can often enter in one place and it exits somewhere else so it can cause quite a bit of damage to a number of different parts of the body.

[VT1032]

The fact that you can get magazines which hold so many rounds. The more rounds you have ready available the more times it can be fired without reloading.

It requires a trigger pull for every round, however it requires very little to pull the trigger thus being able to fire a lot of ammunition rather quickly.

The AR 15 has very little recoil which makes it an extremely easy weapon to fire.

The bullet it fires often does not continue in a straight line once it is fired and it hits soft tissue. It can often enter in one place and it exits somewhere else so it can cause quite a bit of damage to a number of different parts of the body.

And it's still not an.assault rifle. It is not select fire. Period, end of story. The rest is hyperbole. Assault weapon is a made up term with no precise definition.

[Dddrees]

And it's still not an.assault rifle. It is not select fire. Period, end of story. The rest is hyperbole. Assault weapon is a made up term with no precise definition.


I won't argue terms because that's pointless. I'm just pointing out a few of the characteristics of the weapon that make it even more deadly than some other weapons.

[TDA]

As someone who has bought all the new ARs I'll ever buy without moving to another state, I feel I can bring a little bit of the benefit of hindsight to the original question. This situation is no place for a "starter" rifle. It's not the beginning, it's the end. Buy absolutely the highest end rifle you can locate/afford. You can grow into a Colt, but you're only going to grow out of that Olympic Arms Plinker. That said, currently you (I, really) might have a crap weapon where you can just swap out every single bit but the lower for better parts, but 1) why? And 2) maybe not so much if the next ban is Federal.

[BehindBlueI's]

The bullet it fires often does not continue in a straight line once it is fired and it hits soft tissue. It can often enter in one place and it exits somewhere else so it can cause quite a bit of damage to a number of different parts of the body.

http://lawschoollies.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/star-trek-facepalm.jpg

[45dotACP]

The fact that you can get magazines which hold so many rounds. The more rounds you have ready available the more times it can be fired without reloading.

It requires a trigger pull for every round, however it requires very little to pull the trigger thus being able to fire a lot of ammunition rather quickly.

The AR 15 has very little recoil which makes it an extremely easy weapon to fire.

The bullet it fires often does not continue in a straight line once it is fired and it hits soft tissue. It can often enter in one place and it exits somewhere else so it can cause quite a bit of damage to a number of different parts of the body.
Wat?

[Digiroc]

Well I am somewhat "New" to AR platform weapons. My first "Tactical" long gun was a Ruger Mini30 because I didn't want an evil looking "Weapon of War". Times have changed and I bought a Ruger SR 762 .308 "Battle Rifle". Liking that, I bought a Ruger Precision Rifle which although a bolt action, is based on the AR platform.

Becoming familiar with the AR platform and liking it, I bought a Windom Weaponry AR-15 and just today picked up a 300 BLK SIG MCX (the Orlando shooter's weapon). I had put money down to hold the SIG before the shootings so that wasn't a deciding factor . Elimination of the buffer tube was what moved me to buy the SIG, that plus the ability to fit a silencer.

Is this panic buying? Perhaps it is, but I prefer to consider it forward thinking. As a home defense weapon I always recommend a 12 GA shotgun, and in fact have one myself as my primary home defense weapon.

Digiroc

[Bigghoss]

Took my S&W M&P15 Sport II out today. I could only get my hands on 120 rounds of Tula but it cycled fine. However I frequently had get my finger behind the trigger and push it forward to reset it. However I neglected to clean and lube the rifle before taking out which is something I should have done, it was "fresh out of the box" and straight to the range. Also the handguards don't have heat shields so those suckers get hot, but I would guess everyone is gonna toss them and get something else anyway. I had planned on it. I haven't even broken the gun open to see if I can figure out the trigger issue yet so take this report with a can of Morton.

Edit. Field stripped and wiped off the disconnector catch. Couldn't see any burrs or anything but cycling it dry it resets fine now. I cycled it before taking it down and the trigger failed to reset once but I could not get it to do it after many attempts after cleaning. So it would seem the reset issue may have been my fault for not cleaning the gun before shooting it.

This is just one idiot's short experience so don't let me be the reason you buy or don't buy an M&P15.

[Joe in PNG]

Wat?

Guncounter derp as parroted by anti's. You find two kinds of derp when the AR series is brought up. Classical guncounter derp is that the AR is an unreliable plastic POS that craps where it eats and fires a bullet a bit less effective than a .25 ACP. The opposite derp holds that the .223 is some kind of superpowerful tumbling bullet of wounding death, moar dedley than other bullets.

[Low&Left]

Hogwash. This is an a-salt weapon. It features an extra Killy pistol grip and barrel shroud.
http://bugasalt.com/