Wound ballistics for 5.7 vs 9mm FMJ?

[Handy]

I had heard that 5.7 isn't considered very effective, and was wondering if that was just compared to JHP, or all types of handgun bullets?

Would 5.7 make a better military round than 9mm FMJ?


Couldn't search for "5.7". Thanks.

[Default.mp3]

I assume you saw this thread already: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm

You can easily use Google to search for the forum. Like this:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7127/27589039545_f98320e056_o.png
You can use that for any site, really, just put into the Google search field "topic to search site:website url". Handy for getting past the whole search restriction due to time thing.

[HCM]

I assume you saw this thread already: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4338-Small-Caliber-PDW-s-FN-5-7-mm-HK-4-6-mm

You can easily use Google to search for the forum. Like this:
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7127/27589039545_f98320e056_o.png
You can use that for any site, really, just put into the Google search field "topic to search site:website url". Handy for getting past the whole search restriction due to time thing.

That thread has everything you need to know about the performance of the 5.7 / 4.6 mm.

AS noted by Doc GKR two large metro SWAT teams, Jacksonville FL and San Antonio, TX adopted and then abandoned the P90 SMG after poor results in actual shootings.

[DocGKR]

Which one do you think is more effective?

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/9mm_vs_57mm.jpg

[SLG]

Which one do you think is more effective?

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/9mm_vs_57mm.jpg

Uh, is this a trick question? :-)

[DocGKR]

Only if you are the type of person who believes that it is OK to have classified emails on an unsecured server in a bathroom...

[Unobtanium]

Recently, tsx rounds have made it somewhat viable, imo

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Wasn't the whole idea of the round was for the IT guys in Luxembourg to have something to shoot through Soviet Special Forces paratroopers body armor as the Red Army itself came through the Fulda gap? Red Dawn in San Antonio - that's why the SAPD had them? SAPD also did the 41 mag for awhile.

[Gray222]

Only if you are the type of person who believes that it is OK to have classified emails on an unsecured server in a bathroom...

...isn't that where you keep your classified emails?

[DacoRoman]

Recently, tsx rounds have made it somewhat viable, imo

What's the 411 regarding the tsx rounds for 5.7, any commercial loads available? I have a buddy that's a new shooter and I think he fell prey to the gunshop commandos and bought the 5.7 pistol AND carbine. I tried to gently suggest that the round is not optimal due to it failing vetted testing protocols, and I've referred him to Doc Roberts' description of the round's performance but I don't think he bothered to read it. Anyway is there any reason I should recommend a TSX load to my slightly misguided friend? He doesn't reload by the way.

[Hauptmann]

Recently, tsx rounds have made it somewhat viable, imo

I've seen some clear gel tests on the 4.6mm which make it seem "okay", but its ballistic profile still demonstrates handgun wounding effects......IE, a hole punch. That was from a longer barreled MP7, and not a handgun length barrel.

[Handy]

Which one do you think is more effective?

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/9mm_vs_57mm.jpg
If there is any yaw involved, I would expect the longest bullet to be the most effective when comparing FMJ out of pistols. 5.7, in this case.

I read the linked thread, and it was addressing LE use, in what sounded like a comparison to 5.56 rifles and subguns. I assume LE would be comparing 5.7 JHP to 9mm JHP use, rather than FMJ. The descriptions of the 5.7 performance sound a lot like what people say 9mm FMJ is like out of pistols. That's why I'm asking.

[Hambo]

SAPD also did the 41 mag for awhile.

Which was a way better idea than 5.7mm.

[HCM]

Wasn't the whole idea of the round was for the IT guys in Luxembourg to have something to shoot through Soviet Special Forces paratroopers body armor as the Red Army itself came through the Fulda gap? Red Dawn in San Antonio - that's why the SAPD had them? SAPD also did the 41 mag for awhile.

Only SAPD SWAT had them and it was some time ago (15 years?). There was a period of time 15-20 years ago when the P90 was new and FN was pushing LE Agency sales. The U.S. Secret Service and the Federal Protective Service also used them for about 10 years in lieu of MP-5's, most likely for it's ability to counter soft body armor. Of course, an M-4 will do the same thing with better stopping power.

Municipal PD's get into way more shootings than most fed agencies, I'd go with the real world results.

[Jeep]

Which one do you think is more effective?



That's easy: The one whose manufacturer has donated the most money to the Clinton Global Foundation, of course.

[5pins]

But the OP’s question was how it compares to 9MM ball, not modern 9MM duty ammo.

[Hauptmann]

But the OP’s question was how it compares to 9MM ball, not modern 9MM duty ammo.

What is the point though, when the market allows you to purchase the best deforming ammo to use? There are a number of war stories involving 9mm ball and 4.6/5.7 FMJ/Penetrators. 9mm seems to do okay in FMJ format when accurate shooting is involved, or in short bursts of full auto fire. So far, the battlefield reputation of the 4.6/5.7 is that it requires a saturation of the target to cause rapid incapacitation......whether it be the rapidly yawing spoon-nosed 4.6 bullets, or the LE 5.7 soft points. The CQC incidents overseas and in domestic LE tell the same story.......you need high volume cyclic fire to get the job done, and shooting through windshields has abysmal results.

[Handy]

What is the point though, when the market allows you to purchase the best deforming ammo to use? There are a number of war stories involving 9mm ball and 4.6/5.7 FMJ/Penetrators. 9mm seems to do okay in FMJ format when accurate shooting is involved, or in short bursts of full auto fire. So far, the battlefield reputation of the 4.6/5.7 is that it requires a saturation of the target to cause rapid incapacitation......whether it be the rapidly yawing spoon-nosed 4.6 bullets, or the LE 5.7 soft points. The CQC incidents overseas and in domestic LE tell the same story.......you need high volume cyclic fire to get the job done, and shooting through windshields has abysmal results.

I'm interested in the military pistol trials that left caliber open. So I'm wondering what the terminal ballistics of 5.7 FMJ is compared to 9mm FMJ from PISTOLS. I imagine those results are going to be different from subguns.

[Hauptmann]

I imagine those results are going to be different from subguns.

Well, yeah....

A 9mm has a small charge volume and gains very little performance increase from a longer SMG barrel. A 4.6 or 5.7 is a bottle necked cartridge with larger charge-to-projectile ratio, and greatly benefits with the barrel length increase from pistol to SMG. So, if the results from SMGs were abysmal for the 4.6 and 5.7, it will only be worse from a pistol barrel. H&K was originally going to build a joint MP7 SMG and a UCP pistol chambered for the 4.6mm round as a NATO sales project. Fortunately, H&K saw the problem:
"In July 2009, HK USA's president, Wayne Webber, indicated that the UCP project has been cancelled because "HK felt it did not provide adequate ballistics in handgun form."

[Handy]

Well, yeah....

A 9mm has a small charge volume and gains very little performance increase from a longer SMG barrel. A 4.6 or 5.7 is a bottle necked cartridge with larger charge-to-projectile ratio, and greatly benefits with the barrel length increase from pistol to SMG. So, if the results from SMGs were abysmal for the 4.6 and 5.7, it will only be worse from a pistol barrel. H&K was originally going to build a joint MP7 SMG and a UCP pistol chambered for the 4.6mm round as a NATO sales project. Fortunately, H&K saw the problem:
"In July 2009, HK USA's president, Wayne Webber, indicated that the UCP project has been cancelled because "HK felt it did not provide adequate ballistics in handgun form."

Adequate ballistics for what? For LE use with HP? For military use with FMJ? Would any current military bother to buy a subgun/handgun package when short barrel 5.56 rifles are now the norm?

[Hauptmann]

Adequate ballistics for what? For LE use with HP? For military use with FMJ? Would any current military bother to buy a subgun/handgun package when short barrel 5.56 rifles are now the norm?

Not my quote, Wayne Webber's during a press release. If it was inadequate enough to cancel the entire UCP pistol project for all the world markets, then obviously it must have been pretty inadequate performance.

[Handy]

Not my quote, Wayne Webber's during a press release. If it was inadequate enough to cancel the entire UCP pistol project for all the world markets, then obviously it must have been pretty inadequate performance.

I get that, I still don't have any idea how 5.7 FMJ performs out of pistols compared to 9mm FMJ. They both suck, I was wondering by how much different do they suck.

[Jeep]

I get that, I still don't have any idea how 5.7 FMJ performs out of pistols compared to 9mm FMJ. They both suck, I was wondering by how much different do they suck.

During WWII the Germans are said to have referred to the 7.62 x 25 Tok cartridge as the "Russian icepick" because of its tendency to punch a small hole in and a small hole out (unless it hit bone).

The 5.7 FMJ is going to have a similar tendency given its velocity. If I had to choose between a FMJ 9mm and a FMJ 5.7, I'd take the 9mm (reluctantly) unless I was expecting to face body armor. Personally, I think a 7.62 x 25 might be a better round than a FMJ 5.7.

[DocGKR]

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/9mm_vs_57mm.jpg

Look at the photo: when both FMJ projectiles are going point forward, the 9 mm is somewhat superior, when the projectiles begin to yaw, the 5.7 mm FMJ is a bit better, when both projectiles then travel base forward the 9 mm regains the advantage. In all cases, the expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue...

[Handy]

During WWII the Germans are said to have referred to the 7.62 x 25 Tok cartridge as the "Russian icepick" because of its tendency to punch a small hole in and a small hole out (unless it hit bone).

The 5.7 FMJ is going to have a similar tendency given its velocity. If I had to choose between a FMJ 9mm and a FMJ 5.7, I'd take the 9mm (reluctantly) unless I was expecting to face body armor. Personally, I think a 7.62 x 25 might be a better round than a FMJ 5.7.

I wouldn't be surprised if 5.7 tends to act like 9mm FMJ and Tok FMJ. But since it is much lighter than Tok and has a very different shape - long and conic - I would also not be surprised if it had wounding effects that were unusual due to yawing on impact.


That's why I asked if anyone had any actual data showing 5.7 FMJ and 9mm FMJ pistol performance. Test evaluations seemed like a better measure than drawing parallels to anecdotes of dissimilar cartridges.

[Handy]

http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/DocGKR/9mm_vs_57mm.jpg

Look at the photo: when both FMJ projectiles are going point forward, the 9 mm is somewhat superior, when the projectiles begin to yaw, the 5.7 mm FMJ is a bit better, when both projectiles then travel base forward the 9 mm regains the advantage. In all cases, the expanded 9 mm JHP crushes more tissue...

Thank you. I was interested in FMJ to FMJ comparisons because of the discussion about the US Army pistol trials. If the military continues to stand by the Hague Conventions than JHP performance won't be a factor in those trials, and the possibility of light, pointy bullets opens up. Which may explain why the Army left caliber open.

[DocGKR]

DOD JAG has already repeatedly told the Big Army that non-FMJ ammo can be approved for general purpose use, as long as the Army appropriately articulate the requirements. Unfortunately Big Army continues to fail to do as instructed...

[Handy]

DOD JAG has already repeatedly told the Big Army that non-FMJ ammo can be approved for general purpose use, as long as the Army appropriately articulate the requirements. Unfortunately Big Army continues to fail to do as instructed...

Maybe they don't feel articulate enough to keep individual soldiers from being tried as war criminals? Dunno. I was just interested in the FMJ comparisons.

[Velo Dog]

This is, in part, what the Canadian Police Research Centre discovered in 1999

"the wound capability of the 5.7x28 SS190 is approximately 40 percent that of a 9mm 124 grain FMJ fired from a Glock 19, with appreciably smaller wound size, penetration depth, wound channel diameter and soft tissue volume displacement".

[Handy]

This is, in part, what the Canadian Police Research Centre discovered in 1999

"the wound capability of the 5.7x28 SS190 is approximately 40 percent that of a 9mm 124 grain FMJ fired from a Glock 19, with appreciably smaller wound size, penetration depth, wound channel diameter and soft tissue volume displacement".

Thank you! I guess they don't yaw.

[Chuck Haggard]

Thank you! I guess they don't yaw.

Actually, both of these rounds commonly yaw.

[Handy]

Actually, both of these rounds commonly yaw.

Seems like the 5.7 projectile would do more than 40% of a stubby 9mm if it was turning sideways in tests.

[Chuck Haggard]

Seems like the 5.7 projectile would do more than 40% of a stubby 9mm if it was turning sideways in tests.

They tend to be transient when they yaw, forwards and backwards the 9mm wins, sideways it doesn't, but it's still fatter than the 5.7

It also trumps the 5.7 in getting through barriers other than soft body armor (and the .mil can get 9mm AP if they want to....). The 5.7 is a glorified .22mag when you have to shoot through a windshield, car door, or other urban type barriers.

[Unobtanium]

DOD JAG has already repeatedly told the Big Army that non-FMJ ammo can be approved for general purpose use, as long as the Army appropriately articulate the requirements. Unfortunately Big Army continues to fail to do as instructed...

I thought MK318 was already in general use with the USMC?

[texasaggie2005]

I thought MK318 was already in general use with the USMC?

I don't think so. My brother (USMC, Major, Infantry) is still using the old stuff.

[Unobtanium]

I don't think so. My brother (USMC, Major, Infantry) is still using the old stuff.
Interesting. Well, the fact that SOME people are using it, pretty much proves it isn't a legality issue, or being viewed as such?

[texasaggie2005]

Interesting. Well, the fact that SOME people are using it, pretty much proves it isn't a legality issue, or being viewed as such?

I just double checked with him. He's heard of a new round being discussed a couple years ago, but has never seen it issued.

[DocGKR]

My comments were primarily directed towards handguns and the ongoing Army quest for a new pistol.

Yes, Mk318 is in use by the Marines (http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2879) and USSOCOM; Mk262 and other OTM rounds like Mk316 and M118LR are also in use by DOD, although this really has nothing to do with deforming handgun munitions...

[Unobtanium]

My comments were primarily directed towards handguns and the ongoing Army quest for a new pistol.

Yes, Mk318 is in use by the Marines (http://www.sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=2879) and USSOCOM; Mk262 and other OTM rounds like Mk316 and M118LR are also in use by DOD, although this really has nothing to do with deforming handgun munitions...

I'm a bit to irritated at the waste of my tax dollars to get into a discussion about a new handgun trial...

But doesn't the deforming projectile for the rifle carry over to the pistol, for legal purposes? Nowhere have I ever heard it said/put forth that a deforming pistol round is bad when a deforming rifle round is good, legally? SO if one is g2g with JAG, shouldn't the other be?

[DocGKR]

OTM is not considered an expanding projectile, as it fragments in a similar fashion as FMJ like M193 and M855.

DOD JAG has clearly articulated that new ammo needs to be requested using appropriate requirements (ex. penetration no less than 12" and no more than 18") and NOT asking for increased "lethality" or for expanding bullets.

[Unobtanium]

OTM is not considered an expanding projectile, as it fragments in a similar fashion as FMJ like M193 and M855.

DOD JAG has clearly articulated that new ammo needs to be requested using appropriate requirements (ex. penetration no less than 12" and no more than 18") and NOT asking for increased "lethality" or for expanding bullets.

The mk318 isn't OTM is it? Maybe....but 70gr tsx isnt.

[DocGKR]

Look at the official nomenclature on Mk318:

https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRIe6FOt2074hieHT1erMCYzsuaCZ0zl UWWcmFLDdQsiPz4e91l

70 gr TSX is not an issued item to green/white side personnel so is not germane to this discussion at this time.