View Full Version : Detention OK for 6th-grader who called vegetarians 'idiots'
Detention OK for 6th-grader who called vegetarians 'idiots'
MONTGOMERY, N.J. – New Jersey education officials say a school was allowed to give detention to a sixth-grader who told a student who doesn't eat meat that "vegetarians are idiots" and that "he should eat meat because he'd be smarter and have bigger brains."
It happened in the Lower Middle School in 2014. School officials found the comments were harassment, intimidation and bullying because they targeted a "distinguishing characteristic" under state law. The student received five detentions.
Everyone is a special snowflake - "If your parents, brothers, sisters or others disparage the Fuehrer or the Party, it's your duty to report them...."
ACP230
06-09-2016, 05:50 PM
They should have made the school officials eat some vegetarian "lasagna" that was foisted off on me a
few years ago.
Detention for the vegie and not for the meat eater would likely have followed.
Mr_White
06-09-2016, 08:27 PM
I used to be a vegetarian and I was an idiot.
jc000
06-09-2016, 08:45 PM
I don't get the issue. Why shouldn't a student be punished for calling another student an idiot?
Cookie Monster
06-09-2016, 08:47 PM
Why are we as a society so weak?
I don't get the issue. Why shouldn't a student be punished for calling another student an idiot?
because this is supposed to still be the land of the free and the home of the brave. Maybe google that if you are unclear.
In case that was perceived as too harsh, in our soft, soft world, let me clarify.
The correct response from the school to the student in question would have been something along the lines of: "That's not the best way to convey your message, and it makes the vegetable not want to listen to you. Maybe you could rephrase it like this: XXXXX." To the vegetable: "Although your classmate may not have been as effective in his communication as we might have wished, he is correct." :-)
Lost River
06-09-2016, 08:57 PM
Sometimes I feel absolutely, 100% out of touch with the vast majority of modern society.
I honestly don't know a single vegetarian.
The funny thing is that aside from bacon, my family does not eat "store bought" meat.
Every bit of meat that is put on our plates is put there from game animals like elk, mule deer, fish, etc.
At last guesstimate, I think we have 220+ pounds of elk and deer in a couple of freezers.
We do this in part to make sure we always have enough food in case of emergencies, natural disasters, etc. Along with a generator, gas cans, full pantry, etc. These things are a priority to us over entertainment, toys, etc.
We may very well be out of touch.
With that said, I am not really sure I care to be "in touch" though these days.
It seems that in the last 15-20 years this country has completely lost it's mind.
The more I read these goofball stories, the more I want to move further and further back into the mountains of central Idaho with my family.
Fortunately I have kids who love the outdoors.
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KMBRFSHHTCHRY.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/KMBRFSHHTCHRY.jpg.html)
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b109/IV_Troop/KimberMckyRes110812.jpg (http://s18.photobucket.com/user/IV_Troop/media/KimberMckyRes110812.jpg.html)
The Apprentice
06-09-2016, 09:06 PM
Now does the school give every child who calles another one an idiot get detention then fine if not then there is a problem. They should be teaching them to argue their piont without insults. Now I wouldnt classify myself as a pure vegetarian I do try to follow a plant based diet which has had excelent benefits on my health. I'll eat meat or dairy once a week cause man is it delishious.
Now does the school give every child who calles another one an idiot get detention then fine if not then there is a problem. They should be teaching them to argue their piont without insults. Now I wouldnt classify myself as a pure vegetarian I do try to follow a plant based diet which has had excelent benefits on my health. I'll eat meat or dairy once a week cause man is it delishious.
This:
he should eat meat because he'd be smarter and have bigger brains." is, in fact what gave us our big brains.
Seriously, the problem I have is making everyone a special snowflake protected class. You want to give everyone detention for calling some one an idiot? I have no issue. But in this case, the kid was only given detention because he is choosing to be a "vegetarian" and school officials decided that was a "distinguishing characteristic". I guarantee if a kid were called an idiot for wearing say a Wounded Warrior T shirt, the name caller would not be punished. In fact the kid with the WW T shirt would likely get suspended because it depicted soldiers with a rifle......
Totem Polar
06-10-2016, 02:28 AM
Why are we as a society so weak?
Decreased protein consumption, likely.
5pins
06-10-2016, 05:45 AM
I don't get the issue. Why shouldn't a student be punished for calling another student an idiot?
Because a person should never be punished for telling the truth. :D
RoyGBiv
06-10-2016, 06:58 AM
Why are we as a society so weak?
Because the least productive get the same one vote as everyone else and they've figured out they can use it to get free stuff, dragging the rest of us down to their level?
Just a guess.
SansSouci
06-10-2016, 07:11 AM
It's damned good that I'm long removed from public education. Were I in school now, I'd be spending a lot of time in a principal's office. Hell, I'd probably be sent to continuation school where I'd continue with my disdain for liberal and neocon ideology.
SansSouci
06-10-2016, 07:14 AM
Because a person should never be punished for telling the truth. :D
We've long ago departed from the ideology that was basis of our Founding Fathers. Now truth is relative. The sun rises in the east unless it hurts another's feelings. Then the sun rises where he feels good about himself believing it rises.
Robinson
06-10-2016, 07:30 AM
Good god, when I was in sixth grade if I were to whine about someone calling me an idiot the teacher would have said "so what?"
Of course, there also may have been a fight and the "idiot" remark would not have been about vegetarianism. There were plenty of other reasons someone may have called me an idiot...
This ain't the country I was raised in.
LOL. I would have never made it out of school had they put folks into detention for abusive language. I think I must have identified as a Marine in my youth cause I had a very colorful vocabulary among my peers. Still do, but I can be colorful around everyone seeing as I'm all growed up.
With that stated if it's a uniformly administered policy. Trump suppers being called idiots = detention then I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch.
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This guy will be Mr America in the near future....
Robinson
06-10-2016, 07:59 AM
I wish I could un-see the hell out of that.
Joe in PNG
06-10-2016, 08:29 AM
The curse of a prosperous society is people lose track of how things actually work.
TiroFijo
06-10-2016, 09:37 AM
The curse of a prosperous society is people lose track of how things actually work.
...and spend tooo much time or arguing about non important things, making an issue about things that would not be given a second look in elsewhere.
The curse of the idle, rich, entitled and argumentative modern western societies that are sooo uneasy about themselves.
41magfan
06-10-2016, 10:09 AM
Perhaps he should have just called him a racist or a bigot ..... if our President can use that word indiscriminately, why can't a 6th grader?
jc000
06-10-2016, 10:21 AM
Why are we as a society so weak?
because this is supposed to still be the land of the free and the home of the brave. Maybe google that if you are unclear.
In case that was perceived as too harsh, in our soft, soft world, let me clarify.
The correct response from the school to the student in question would have been something along the lines of: "That's not the best way to convey your message, and it makes the vegetable not want to listen to you. Maybe you could rephrase it like this: XXXXX." To the vegetable: "Although your classmate may not have been as effective in his communication as we might have wished, he is correct." :-)
Really?
If my kid called some kid an idiot, I'd tell my kid to not be surprised if they get smacked. If my kid called some kid an idiot and some parent / teacher / coach heard them and they got yelled at / put in detention / made to run laps I'd tell my kid "serves you right".
If one of the kids I coached called another kid an idiot for wearing a Hillary! t-shirt, that kid would be doing some serious push-ups. Though I may slip them a clandestine high-five later on…
I maintain, kids in school (or really anywhere) should not be calling other kids idiots, just as adults should not be doing so. That's irrespective of the idiocy of New Jersey giving vegetarians some protective class status under some type of Orwellian "harassment" state law. Don't live in states like New Jersey. Problem solved.
jc000
06-10-2016, 10:25 AM
Sometimes I feel absolutely, 100% out of touch with the vast majority of modern society.
You are 100% correct. For the most part, we as a species here in the USA have completely lost touch with our habitat, our food, our families, our community. All I can do is try to instill a family-first mindset with my wife / children, and try to associate with like-minded people.
QuickStrike
06-10-2016, 01:13 PM
People in 3rd world countries that can't afford to eat much meat probably thinks vegetarians are idiots too.
Like who the heck would give up such a luxury and the best/simplest way of getting full usable protein??
Really?
If my kid called some kid an idiot, I'd tell my kid to not be surprised if they get smacked. If my kid called some kid an idiot and some parent / teacher / coach heard them and they got yelled at / put in detention / made to run laps I'd tell my kid "serves you right".
If one of the kids I coached called another kid an idiot for wearing a Hillary! t-shirt, that kid would be doing some serious push-ups. Though I may slip them a clandestine high-five later on…
I maintain, kids in school (or really anywhere) should not be calling other kids idiots, just as adults should not be doing so. That's irrespective of the idiocy of New Jersey giving vegetarians some protective class status under some type of Orwellian "harassment" state law. Don't live in states like New Jersey. Problem solved.
Yes, really.
What I wrote is completely aside from the physical retribution that I too would be telling my kids to expect if they called someone an idiot. The school, though, has no business punishing a kid for exercising his 1st amendment rights. Same with you as a coach. If you want to teach them the right way to talk to people, that's fine, but if you have an issue with them calling people idiots, you really need to take it up with their parent, who obviously dropped the ball somewhere.
Schools, and the people who work there, don't (shouldn't) get to decide on punishment for these kinds of things. If a school wants to lay out a policy, in advance, that kids who belittle other kids will not be allowed to participate in after school sports or clubs, I'm ok with that. Being removed from a program for failing to follow the rules is good. Being punished for calling a group of people idiots, based on their chosen behaviour, is not.
Getting back to my original point, if you think otherwise, then obviously you don't agree with "land of the free." "Idiot", is not a curse, it is not racial, ethnic, sexist, or any other "really bad thing to be." It is an observation and value judgement. Which is what we should be encouraging kids to do. Mine do it all the time, but they know better than to speak to people that way. Can't raise proper adults if they can't figure out what is good, bad or ugly.
'Idiot' was the first word my kid got in trouble for at school. He learned it from his mom while driving in Dallas.
'Trouble' consisted of an email to me saying 'please parent your kid.'
TCinVA
06-10-2016, 04:59 PM
I went to elementary. middle, and high-school in NJ. They didn't take disciplinary action against a student who pulled a knife and robbed somebody on the fucking bus.
Granted this was a while ago now, but I noticed even then a rather curious difference between things that netted disciplinary action and things that didn't...and I went to one of the less gladiator-like public systems.
On multiple occasions I got hauled into the office because I defended myself against some shithead problem student and got threatened with disciplinary action the other dude never had to worry about. Why? "Because you know better!"
Nah. I don't "know better" than to punch the shit out of somebody trying to punch the shit out of me. Especially since you take zero action against that dude because his family, such as it is, doesn't give a fuck and you think it cruel and unusual to have the cops deal with him. Just because everybody else lets he and his little cabal of fuckwits get violent without doing anything doesn't mean *I* will, or that I'm going to fail to notice that I'm the only motherfucker sitting in this office talking to a cop after he attacked me and got what the fuck was coming to him.
On the plus side, I never called him an idiot. So I have that going for me.
As surely as it is possible to under-police children, it's possible to over-police them, too. In life they will encounter hostility, name calling, and all other manner of bad human behavior. They need to learn to deal with it, and all the adults need to learn not to hyperventilate when kids act like kids.
I guarantee if I went to the school where this happened I would find students who do far worse on a daily basis with no action by the school. Because some kids come from homes that have involved parents who give a damn, and some kids do not. The kids who do not are often excused for their bad behavior while kids who have a decent home end up under a microscope. I've seen this happen over and over again in my life and in the lives of friends trying to raise their kids.
Kennydale
06-10-2016, 05:17 PM
Can you imagine if that kid claimed that "CLIMATE CHANGE" people are IDIOTS (which they are). So much for freedom of expression in our schools ?
jc000
06-10-2016, 05:28 PM
Yes, really.
What I wrote is completely aside from the physical retribution that I too would be telling my kids to expect if they called someone an idiot. The school, though, has no business punishing a kid for exercising his 1st amendment rights. Same with you as a coach. If you want to teach them the right way to talk to people, that's fine, but if you have an issue with them calling people idiots, you really need to take it up with their parent, who obviously dropped the ball somewhere.
Schools, and the people who work there, don't (shouldn't) get to decide on punishment for these kinds of things. If a school wants to lay out a policy, in advance, that kids who belittle other kids will not be allowed to participate in after school sports or clubs, I'm ok with that. Being removed from a program for failing to follow the rules is good. Being punished for calling a group of people idiots, based on their chosen behaviour, is not.
Getting back to my original point, if you think otherwise, then obviously you don't agree with "land of the free." "Idiot", is not a curse, it is not racial, ethnic, sexist, or any other "really bad thing to be." It is an observation and value judgement. Which is what we should be encouraging kids to do. Mine do it all the time, but they know better than to speak to people that way. Can't raise proper adults if they can't figure out what is good, bad or ugly.
I guess we can agree to disagree.
Where I instruct we have a clear and definite stated policy: coaches and teammates will be treated with respect. Absolutely if a kid violates that policy they will be disciplined. I can't imagine that any school doesn't have a similar policy. The kid got detention. It's not like he was expelled.
I don't operate under the belief that kids have the same rights as adults and I don't believe that children have freedom of speech.
GuanoLoco
06-10-2016, 05:36 PM
I believe in a strict policy of HTFU Buttercup!
All this feel good stuff is great until the pile of silly crap collapses under its own weight.
I guess we can agree to disagree.
Where I instruct we have a clear and definite stated policy: coaches and teammates will be treated with respect. Absolutely if a kid violates that policy they will be disciplined. I can't imagine that any school doesn't have a similar policy. The kid got detention. It's not like he was expelled.
I don't operate under the belief that kids have the same rights as adults and I don't believe that children have freedom of speech.
I can agree with much of that. If a school has a written policy already in place that says you will face repercussions for not acting like a Lady or a Gentleman, I'm fine with that. Respect though, is a murky area. Some people will feel disrespected no matter what you do. They don't get to decide FOR ME, what respect is and is not. I'm also not a school kid.
This sounded less like that and more like political/social censorship.
As far as the 1st amendment, I believe that other people's kids have the same right to it as the rest of us. Mine, on the other hand, do not. They also are raised to understand when they should STFU, and when they should speak up. Neither would have acted poorly in this situation, imo. If they did, I would expect to hear about it.
Sixth grade boys talk to each other like this all the time--and that is what they do with their friends. They also constantly push and shove each other.
It is how they are made.
It seems to me that a well-run school system would both (1) crack down on this kind of stuff in the classroom; and (2) turn a blind eye to the less egregious offenses on the playground or lunch room. There they should concentrate on stopping actual violence. They aren't going to change the nature of sixth grade boys, but with effort they can keep them within bounds.
This strikes me overkill for calling another kid an "idiot"--and it would surprise me if they give such punishments regularly. Rather, it strikes me as the kind of thing where a parent came in to complain that "Johnny called my special snowflake an "idiot" because we are vegetarians and I demand that you do something right now to punish Johnny and let my special snowflake know that he is a special snowflake."
In the old days, parents would never do that, now they do it constantly because they are special snowflakes themselves.
RoyGBiv
06-11-2016, 03:57 PM
(2) turn a blind eye to the less egregious offenses on the playground or lunch room.
We live in an era of jury-by-social-media. Everybody is entitled to tell you what's right and you damn well better satisfy them or There Will Be Ferguson.
Had this conversation this morning over bagels and lox with my oldest...... "When a bunch of people get mad about X/Y/Z on the internet, what do you think should happen?" Why?
How often does social media convey all the facts, correctly?
They aren't going to change the nature of sixth grade boys, but with effort they can keep them within bounds.
"They" are trying...
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/12/kachel-america-emasculated-war-manhood/
http://twt-thumbs.washtimes.com/media/image/2014/08/03/side-by-side_c0-0-640-373_s885x516.jpg?ba6c66ab8cdb5e6ea399b5fe08ee3ac37 1a2ff75
You are absolutely correct that they are trying to emasculate little boys--but it won't work. No matter how many feminist mothers and kindergarten teachers try to stop boys playing with toy guns and start playing with dolls, the little boys will keep pretending that their fingers are guns and the dolls were blown up by hand grenades.
However my guess--and it is obviously only a guess--is that this isn't what happened here. Instead I think it most likely that there was some parental involvement by vegetarian parents outraged by a slur against vegetarianism. There are a lot of perfectly fine and normal vegetarians, but there are some who are militant, intolerant and difficult.
Whatever the case, it does seem probable that someone was an "idiot" here--and it was neither of the two boys.
JohnO
06-11-2016, 05:51 PM
Every day that goes by and every ridiculous school related news story reaffirms my decision to Homeschool my children.
You are absolutely correct that they are trying to emasculate little boys--but it won't work. No matter how many feminist mothers and kindergarten teachers try to stop boys playing with toy guns and start playing with dolls, the little boys will keep pretending that their fingers are guns and the dolls were blown up by hand grenades.
However my guess--and it is obviously only a guess--is that this isn't what happened here. Instead I think it most likely that there was some parental involvement by vegetarian parents outraged by a slur against vegetarianism. There are a lot of perfectly fine and normal vegetarians, but there are some who are militant, intolerant and difficult.
Whatever the case, it does seem probable that someone was an "idiot" here--and it was neither of the two boys.
Agreed.
To tie into another thread...if genetics and hard work produce top results, I'm pretty sure being a vegetable removes the likelyhood of physical success in any endeavor.
I've seen military training courses where the trainees get starved. I've never seen one in which vegetarianism was pushed when there is food. There is pressure to have federally required vegetarian days in high school cafeterias, though, and so perhaps that will be coming to the military also. My guess is that if done it won't work out too well.
Of course they want you to be grass eaters. You're the Eloi, and they plan on being the Morlocks.
Every day that goes by and every ridiculous school related news story reaffirms my decision to Homeschool my children.
I admire home schoolers. I have an only child, so I send him to school to learn how to fight.
At one point, prior to getting religion, my wife and I thought we'd send our kid to the best private PK-8 in KC. It didn't work out for a number of reasons, but I knew it was doomed from the first parent gathering. I looked around and whispered to my wife, "what do you see that's wrong with the fathers here?" She said, "they're p*ssies." WWCD. And their boys were p*ssies too.
At his current school, all of the kids have at least four brothers and learned how to take a punch in their diapers.
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