Are CZs best as range/game guns?

[Earlymonk]

Hi, all:

As I go through the process of this search (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20882-first-hammer-gun), a CZ PCR (massaged by CZ Custom) has emerged as a leading candidate. The trouble is I don't see a lot about CZs as serious LE/SD guns on P-F or elsewhere in the US shooting community. OTOH, they seem to be burning up the gaming world.

What gives? Are bunches of non-US cops wrong? Have I been brainwashed by Mike Pannone (a distinct possibility)? ;)

Or is there something fundamentally at issue with the design, durability, etc. of CZs?

Thanks for your thoughts...

[Talionis]

Hi, all:

As I go through the process of this search (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20882-first-hammer-gun), a CZ PCR (massaged by CZ Custom) has emerged as a leading candidate. The trouble is I don't see a lot about CZs as serious LE/SD guns on P-F or elsewhere in the US shooting community. OTOH, they seem to be burning up the gaming world.

What gives? Are bunches of non-US cops wrong? Have I been brainwashed by Mike Pannone (a distinct possibility)? ;)

Or is there something fundamentally at issue with the design, durability, etc. of CZs?

Thanks for your thoughts...

CZ's are superb guns. I would have no issues with someone choosing to carry something like a PCR as long as they know what they are getting into.

If you practice with any kind of frequency (which you absolutely should) parts will break. Not just in live fire. I have friends who have snapped trigger return springs on dry-fire only backup guns without a shot through them in that time.

With the given that you will break stuff on your CZ with much more frequency than something like an HK, it becomes much more necessary to either have multiple versions of the the gun or be your own armorer and follow an aggressive preventative maintenance schedule.

Most people I know who shoot CZ's in volume have at least one backup gun set-up the same as their primary. One gets shot in practice, the other in matches. Most people I know who shoot CZ's also discovered the importance of preventative maintenance the hard way by breaking something like a trigger return spring or slide stop at a match.

I was one of the brave (dumb?) few who shot a little over a full season with only one CZ. I did it by being aggressive with early spring changes, having a "match slide stop" and a "practice slide stop" etc. Even with that, I broke several trigger return springs in practice (and once at a local match) as well as at least one slide stop, a rear sight, and probably something else. I did put nearly 30k rounds through the gun in that time, and it had over 10k on it before I bought it. Interestingly, shortly after I sold it, the slide cracked and the new owner had to source a replacement slide.

To re-iterate: A CZ can be an excellent carry gun IF you know what you're getting in to.

[GJM]

Talionis nailed this, and Pepperoni will probably be along shortly to say the same thing.

If I was going to carry a CZ, it would be a lightly tuned P07/09. Still a good shooter, but less PM intensive. If it had to be metal, it would be a 92 Compact instead of a P01/PCR.

[Talionis]

Upon skimming the linked thread, have you had a chance to try any of these guns to check things like trigger reach, Earlymonk? I got the impression hand size is a major issue for you. CZ's have a nice small grip, but the DA is pretty long, even with the deep curved trigger. GJM's Beretta recommendation is likely to have similar trigger reach issues for you.

[Earlymonk]

CZ's are superb guns. I would have no issues with someone choosing to carry something like a PCR as long as they know what they are getting into.

...With the given that you will break stuff on your CZ with much more frequency than something like an HK, it becomes much more necessary to either have multiple versions of the the gun or be your own armorer and follow an aggressive preventative maintenance schedule.


Just super helpful, Talionis. Thank you! I don't come close to the sort of annual round count that many P-Fers do and wonder what you'd recommend. (I'm a sub 5000/year, for sure.)



If I was going to carry a CZ, it would be a lightly tuned P07/09. Still a good shooter, but less PM intensive. If it had to be metal, it would be a 92 Compact instead of a P01/PCR.

Thanks, GJM. Unless the DA reach can be shortened on the CZ polymers (beyond backstrap changes), I think I'm out of luck on that score. OTOH, I've got to find a 92 Compact in the wild and see if it will work for me...


CZ's have a nice small grip, but the DA is pretty long, even with the deep curved trigger.

That was my experience in the LGS with factory rubber. Have you found that thinner grips make the DA shorter?

[Earlymonk]

To re-iterate: A CZ can be an excellent carry gun IF you know what you're getting in to.

Upon further thought, it seems instructive (a clue!) that many experienced shooters understand what would be involved with having a CZ EDC--i.e., they know what they are getting into--and choose not to. It seems that experienced shooters have collectively come to the conclusion that there are better options.

Perhaps CZs introduction of the Omega system is an effort to simplify/strengthen the design & achieve Glock/HK/M&P type reliability?

[Talionis]

Just super helpful, Talionis. Thank you! I don't come close to the sort of annual round count that many P-Fers do and wonder what you'd recommend. (I'm a sub 5000/year, for sure.)
...
Thanks, GJM. Unless the DA reach can be shortened on the CZ polymers (beyond backstrap changes), I think I'm out of luck on that score. OTOH, I've got to find a 92 Compact in the wild and see if it will work for me...
...
That was my experience in the LGS with factory rubber. Have you found that thinner grips make the DA shorter?

Glad you found it helpful. What would I recommend as far as practice round count? As much as possible;) A happy medium for me is generally between 15 and 20k a year, but I'm trying to be competitive at a fairly high level. Skill level is a lot more dependent on focused practice and the ability to diagnose and correct weak areas than it is on round count, in my experience. If you were referring to round count of preventative maintenance, then something like a full re-spring every 5k and swapping in a new slide stop every 10k would be a decent starting point.

Last I knew, Cajun Gun Works was offering a reduced reach trigger modification for the P07/P09 CZ's, which would be a decent option if you don't plan to ever compete with them.

In my experience, trigger reach is much more related to the relationship of trigger face to backstrap of the gun than it is to width of side panels. That being said, the thin grips do change that at least a bit.

[Earlymonk]

Glad you found it helpful. What would I recommend as far as practice round count?

My question was totally unclear, sorry! (Though I very much appreciate the recommendations on round count!) What I was wondering was--given that my low(ish) count of <5000/year was unlikely to increase, i.e., one 2000-round class, plus maintenance training--might I be well served by the PCR and not need to go to a gun in the "shoot and ignore" category (not that that's really a thing!)? Assuming good record keeping and annual maintenance, of course.



Last I knew, Cajun Gun Works was offering a reduced reach trigger modification for the P07/P09 CZ's, which would be a decent option if you don't plan to ever compete with them.

I know they offer this for the metal guns--I'd likely need it--not sure they offer it for the polymers, but I'll definitely call and ask.



In my experience, trigger reach is much more related to the relationship of trigger face to backstrap of the gun than it is to width of side panels. That being said, the thin grips do change that at least a bit.

Got it. Expect minimal changes.

[Talionis]

My question was totally unclear, sorry! (Though I very much appreciate the recommendations on round count!) What I was wondering was--given that my low(ish) count of <5000/year was unlikely to increase, i.e., one 2000-round class, plus maintenance training--might I be well served by the PCR and not need to go to a gun in the "shoot and ignore" category (not that that's really a thing!)? Assuming good record keeping and annual maintenance, of course.


Haha, I managed to answer the wrong question with both of my answers, that takes a special talent;) Only you can answer if you'll be well served with the PCR as your only training/self-defense pistol.

Some of the questions I would ask myself before adopting the PCR would be something along these lines:

1)(a) Am I mechanically inclined and able to comfortably work on fairly complex mechanical systems?
OR
(b) Am I prepared to invest in at least one duplicate of the gun that will be used as my training/backup gun?

2) Am I prepared to detail strip, check component wear, and replace all springs and any wear items on an at least yearly basis, or do without that gun for a period of time while someone else does it?

3) Am I prepared to troubleshoot issues such as changing extractor tension or rounding off ejector angle that may crop up at inopportune times?

4) Am I able to easily operate all controls, paying particular attention to trigger manipulation?

5) Does this particular gun speak to me on a deeper level than the less maintenance intensive options I'm considering?

[Edwin]

Don't forget that with the 92, you can get a short reset trigger and ultra-thin grips.

[JonInWA]

After running several CZ75Bs and CZ83s for several years, many moons ago, I would recommend going with Glock, HK or Berettas. I think that you have higher quality metallurgy and component durability in the case of the HKs and Berettas, and a Glock is exceptionally durable and reliable in most of their iterations, and far easier to maintain and perform detailed disassembly/parts-swap.

I personally know several reasonably high-volume and highly competent shooters who are running Cee Zeds but they're not at the top of the list of my first tier choices or recommendations.

Best, Jon

[Handy]

Oop, wrong thread.

CZ trigger reach is longish.

[Greg]

There is a monstrous thread over on M4Carbine http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?149986-CZ-P-07 Where MIke Pannone reports some high round counts in his P-07/09 series pistols without any issues.

Page 2 of the thread has a report of 17,000 on one. The counts only get higher as the thread goes on. (79 pages as of today)

My lone P-07 (second gen) has a bit over 2500 rounds without a hiccup but I have another one on order to use as my beater/training pistol. Planning on doing the 2000 round challenge with that one and I'm not anticipating any problems. We will see....

[Sal Picante]

There is a monstrous thread over on M4Carbine http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?149986-CZ-P-07 Where MIke Pannone reports some high round counts in his P-07/09 series pistols without any issues.

Page 2 of the thread has a report of 17,000 on one. The counts only get higher as the thread goes on. (79 pages as of today)

My lone P-07 (second gen) has a bit over 2500 rounds without a hiccup but I have another one on order to use as my beater/training pistol. Planning on doing the 2000 round challenge with that one and I'm not anticipating any problems. We will see....

P07 and P09 are vastly different guns from the 75 variants: Omega trigger system is much stouter than 75-stuff...

[Handy]

P07 and P09 are vastly different guns from the 75 variants: Omega trigger system is much stouter than 75-stuff...

What about CZ75 Omegas?

[Earlymonk]

There is a monstrous thread over on M4Carbine http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?149986-CZ-P-07 Where MIke Pannone reports some high round counts in his P-07/09 series pistols without any issues.

Page 2 of the thread has a report of 17,000 on one. The counts only get higher as the thread goes on. (79 pages as of today)

My lone P-07 (second gen) has a bit over 2500 rounds without a hiccup but I have another one on order to use as my beater/training pistol. Planning on doing the 2000 round challenge with that one and I'm not anticipating any problems. We will see....


P07 and P09 are vastly different guns from the 75 variants: Omega trigger system is much stouter than 75-stuff...

I just wish the P-07/P-09 fit better/didn't pinch. They are cool guns indeed.
I called CGW and they do NOT offer a reach reduction kit for polymers CZs--metal only.

[That Guy]

P07 and P09 are vastly different guns from the 75 variants: Omega trigger system is much stouter than 75-stuff...

So if I understand correctly, a P07 would be much less likely to have any issues requiring an aggressive preventive maintenance schedule or a back up gun, than other CZ's?

Some of the issues people have had with their guns have made the P07 sound like an iffy proposition, but it sounds like I might have underestimated this guns potential. Do you guys think the current production guns are good to go? What about in a situation like mine, where I can't just go out and buy a gun, but rather need to go through a long and annoying bureaucratic process first?

[Earlymonk]

So if I understand correctly, a P07 would be much less likely to have any issues requiring an aggressive preventive maintenance schedule or a back up gun, than other CZ's?

Some of the issues people have had with their guns have made the P07 sound like an iffy proposition, but it sounds like I might have underestimated this guns potential. Do you guys think the current production guns are good to go? What about in a situation like mine, where I can't just go out and buy a gun, but rather need to go through a long and annoying bureaucratic process first?

Given my limited experience, I think you are correct, Tony. From what I understand, the Omega system was an effort on CZ's part to create a simpler, more robust lockwork.

I also understand that any issues with the Gen1 polymer guns, branded "Duty," (frame bulge, etc) have been resolved in the Gen2 guns, which have no "Duty" label, forward serrations, reshaped trigger, etc.

[Moshe Dayan]

I have a full size 75B with well over 10,000 round without a single part breaking. I replaced the springs a few months ago when the slide started struggling to strip round from the magazine. My compact is approaching 3000 rounds without issue. I carry both pistols and have the utmost confidence in their ability to perform.

[TiroFijo]

I have a pre-B CZ 75, and I broke the slide stop at about 6000 rounds. Since then, about 5000 more now and no other parts breaking.
At least in the past, the slide stop breakage was a known issue, happening early or lasting a long time depending on your luck. I asked the czech IPSC CZ guys and the company representative in an international competition about this, and they gave me the evil eye... perhaps is a thing of the past now, or the issue no one dares to speak about.
I love the ergos and accuracy of my 75, but reliability wise it has been more finicky than others pistols like glocks, berettas and sigs.

[GJM]

So if I understand correctly, a P07 would be much less likely to have any issues requiring an aggressive preventive maintenance schedule or a back up gun, than other CZ's?

Some of the issues people have had with their guns have made the P07 sound like an iffy proposition, but it sounds like I might have underestimated this guns potential. Do you guys think the current production guns are good to go? What about in a situation like mine, where I can't just go out and buy a gun, but rather need to go through a long and annoying bureaucratic process first?

As you describe your situation, it would be hard to justify anything over a Glock 17/19.

[QuickStrike]

On my SP-01 da/sa, the trigger reach in DA is way too long, even with the thin aluminum grips. After the first da shot, all the rest goes to the right slightly... ideal finger position for da = too much finger for sa.

So I usually shoot it like a 1911.

My P-01 is a decocker and the DA is at half cock so I dont have this problem.

Wish someone would make a short reach trigger for them, as I have this for both my sigs and beretta 92.

If I were to carry a CZ, I would probably have a dedicated training slide stop spray painted bright blue or something. They are enough easy to pop in and out.

CZ's are extremely shootable, but maybe not as trouble free as some other designs. With an upgraded trig. return spring and a dedicated training slide stop, they're still viable though imo.

[Earlymonk]

Wish someone would make a short reach trigger for them, as I have this for both my sigs and beretta 92.



Voila!
https://cajungunworks.com/product/rrk-t2-reach-reduction-kit/

[QuickStrike]

^Maybe he has a new version out, but I don't recall it making that much of a difference on the tuned shadow that I sold a couple of months ago.

[Earlymonk]

Drat! And here I thought I was being helpful! :p

[QuickStrike]

May still be helpful to anyone who doesn't have hobbit sized hands and stumpy fingers.

[That Guy]

As you describe your situation, it would be hard to justify anything over a Glock 17/19.

Very not comfortable with most striker fired pistols. That whole condition 0 thing...

[GJM]

Very not comfortable with most striker fired pistols. That whole condition 0 thing...

In that case, I would buy an HK LEM, a six pack of trigger return springs, that HKparts.net pliers for changing the TRS, and you will probably never need another thing but ammo.

[That Guy]

No LEM's around here. I have looked at the TDA P30, but... The Sig P226 is just calling out to me much more. :p Unfortunately, there are some availability issues to work through. Always the same bloody thing - the paperwork is only valid for a certain period, so you might end up getting what ever you can manage to find...

(The CZ pistols have never been high up on my list, but I know someone who might be interested in them. Figured I'd better ask. Besides, always good to know more about guns. :) )

[Sal Picante]

I have a full size 75B with well over 10,000 round without a single part breaking. I replaced the springs a few months ago when the slide started struggling to strip round from the magazine. My compact is approaching 3000 rounds without issue. I carry both pistols and have the utmost confidence in their ability to perform.

That's not impossible, but, there are several others of us that have had very real issues well within 10,000 rds.

Ask GJM how many he has...

[Moshe Dayan]

That's not impossible, but, there are several others of us that have had very real issues well within 10,000 rds.

Ask GJM how many he has...

Ok sure, even so, you can mitigate that with regular maintenance. Spending ~$40 every $1000 worth of ammunition in preventative maintenance does not make the pistol unsuitable. They are not as finicky or fragile as people make them out to be.

[Handy]

That's not impossible, but, there are several others of us that have had very real issues well within 10,000 rds.

Ask GJM how many he has...

Were the issues on parts that the Omega trigger system replaced, or slide stop failures?

[JTPHD]

I carried a P07 for a couple years. Even with the P07/P09 Omega systems, I was never 100% comfortable relying on the thin-wire TRSs. I never broke one, but I also replaced them every few thousand rounds; I realize it's an entirely subjective assessment. Plus, the fact that only CGW and CZC were my only decent parts options.

[Greg]

I carried a P07 for a couple years. Even with the P07/P09 Omega systems, I was never 100% comfortable relying on the thin-wire TRSs. I never broke one, but I also replaced them every few thousand rounds; I realize it's an entirely subjective assessment. Plus, the fact that only CGW and CZC were my only decent parts options.

Have you ever seen the trigger return springs on a Sig P series?

[s0nspark]

Talionis nailed this, and Pepperoni will probably be along shortly to say the same thing.

If I was going to carry a CZ, it would be a lightly tuned P07/09. Still a good shooter, but less PM intensive. If it had to be metal, it would be a 92 Compact instead of a P01/PCR.

Having owned 4 customized steel-framed CZs in the past (which were sweet guns) ... this is exactly the conclusion I came to. I now carry a lightly customized P-07 (CGW TRS, FP, HS) and I have a second dedicated gun for training. I also keep a few spare parts in my range bag just to be safe.

CZs are great guns. It is good to know the strengths and weaknesses of whatever platform you carry... ;-)

[Stuffbreaker]

Several of my Production buds have switched from polymer guns to Shadow models, most seeing noticeable improvements in their shooting viritually overnight. A couple Glock shooters couldn't make the transition, and went back. None of them carry these guns. They're heavy, essentially 9mm Limited guns. Part of what makes Shadow triggers so light and desirable for gaming is they have no firing pin block. Some say they are drop safe, but I'm not pointing any gun without a fpb at my junk. That and lack of a decocker make the gamer models a no go for carry, imo. Have seen a couple of my buds ND decocking under stress while pointed safely down range. Ymmv.

[s0nspark]

In that case, I would buy an HK LEM, a six pack of trigger return springs, that HKparts.net pliers for changing the TRS, and you will probably never need another thing but ammo.

I'm not disagreeing but... I was on the HK train for a while and switched back to CZ simply because I found them easier to work on myself, especially the polymer P-series with the Omega trigger system. Ergos are better for me too.

[s0nspark]

I'm not pointing any gun without a fpb at my junk.

Given your nick, that was worth a chuckle :)

[s0nspark]

There is a monstrous thread over on M4Carbine http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?149986-CZ-P-07 Where MIke Pannone reports some high round counts in his P-07/09 series pistols without any issues.

Page 2 of the thread has a report of 17,000 on one. The counts only get higher as the thread goes on. (79 pages as of today)


If memory serves, Mike is well over 40 or 50 thousand on one of his guns with no breakages. (CGW parts, of course)

[That Guy]

Oh, bloody hell. My interest in Sigs is in severe headwinds as actually getting my hands on one before my paperwork expires is becoming more and more difficult. Just how hard can a P30 V1 trigger be to learn, eh...?


In that case, I would buy an HK LEM, a six pack of trigger return springs, that HKparts.net pliers for changing the TRS, and you will probably never need another thing but ammo.

HK Parts does not ship internationally. Local importer is bloody useless. The international sources I've looked at have no H&K spare parts. (I wonder, does that say more about the quality or the quantity of H&K's out there...?) If you've got a good tip on a parts source, I'm seriously considering importing one into this country myself. Even though I hate paperwork and loathe bureaucracy...

[Morgoth]

I have the SP-01 Shadow and the P-09.
Both great guns with zero malfunctions.
I have put several thousand rounds through the SP-01 and had no issues whatsoever.
The CZ's and Tanfoglios would be FAR and away the most common IPSC guns down here in Australia.


M