P30SK LEM 4.1

[Dagga Boy]

Got my P30SK back today from HK. I tried installing the 4.1 kit myself and was doing just fine until I got to the final part of the assembly and realized that aliens had taken the elbow spring. I had two guns going to HK anyways, so I threw the SK in along with a taller front sight, and to check my installation work on the 4.1 springs and properly finish the reassembly. All three guns were sent on a Thursday and back today (Wednesday). Great customer service and everyone at HK was great....contrary to the Internet.

I had very much fallen in love with the P30SK LEM for a daily carry gun with my current lifestyle and needs. I never thought I would move away from a service size gun, but I am finally there in life. I will still be shooting and carrying a VP-9 as my primary go to gun, but the SK is getting the lions share of daily concealed carry now for a number of reasons.

Initial thoughts on the 4.1 LEM....so far I like it. It will get shot a lot this weekend to confirm my thoughts. I find my initial finger placement on the trigger is noticeably better. The trigger has a lively feel and a lot of tactile feel back to the shooter. Compared to my VP9 the trigger is obviously much more tactile and long, but I find it very workable on a deep concealment appendix carry gun.

I ll post updates, but so far, this gun that I originally had no interest in has very much won me over.

[NCmtnman]

I'm looking forward to hearing your updates to this and especially your feelings on the 4.1. I thought you had a P2000sk? What made you go with the P30sk over the other and will you entertain the VP9sk if it ever comes out?

[cjb1911]

I've been out of the LEM loop for a few years after I dumped all my p30s and hk45cts for a Austrian downgrade. What is the 4.1?

[Dagga Boy]

I'm looking forward to hearing your updates to this and especially your feelings on the 4.1. I thought you had a P2000sk? What made you go with the P30sk over the other and will you entertain the VP9sk if it ever comes out?
I hanestly had "no need" for a P30SK because I love my P2000SK. Turns out, while I still like my P2000SK, I am sold on the P30SK for me as a better option. The P2000SK is likely going to get relegated specifically to carrying at my vacation home. I would definitely want a HK VP9SK. Not sure I would use it the same as the P30SK which has me back to daily AIWB carry. I am at a point in life where I am just not interested in constantly being in "totally switched on" that I am when I have a striker fired gun AIWB.


I've been out of the LEM loop for a few years after I dumped all my p30s and hk45cts for a Austrian downgrade. What is the 4.1?

It is a short take up version of the LEM that has the trigger moved farther back than a regular LEM, and also uses a bit different trigger bar detent spring and a medium weight trigger return spring.

[LSP972]

It is a short take up version of the LEM that has the trigger moved farther back than a regular LEM...

But the reset length is the same, right?

If so, I'm curious as to how you find the shorter take-up distance to be improved?

.

[APS-PF]

Nyeti, which front sight did you have installed if I may ask? Mine also shoots quite a bit high with 147gr HST. 124gr+P Gold Dots aren't bad and they shoot just enough high that if I snatch the trigger a little accidentally POI is still right at the front sight. Conversely my P2000LEM shoots on the verge of too low. Arg.
Thanks, Adam

[PD Sgt.]

Do you need to use the medium TRS for the kit to work correctly since the trigger sits rearward from a stock LEM? I have been considering this for my P2000 but I like the reset from the heavy TRS and I really do not enjoy changing the trigger spring, even with the correct tool.

[Dagga Boy]

But the reset length is the same, right?

If so, I'm curious as to how you find the shorter take-up distance to be improved?.

For me, it gets my finger better positioned. In dry practice, I "think" I am transitioning through the movement and then slack before hitting the real wall. I ll find out this weekend if that is real or perception on the range.



Nyeti, which front sight did you have installed if I may ask? Mine also shoots quite a bit high with 147gr HST. 124gr+P Gold Dots aren't bad and they shoot just enough high that if I snatch the trigger a little accidentally POI is still right at the front sight. Conversely my P2000LEM shoots on the verge of too low. Arg.
Thanks, Adam

I went with one size taller than stock. It is the 6.5mm factory front with a 10-8 rear.


Do you need to use the medium TRS for the kit to work correctly since the trigger sits rearward from a stock LEM? I have been considering this for my P2000 but I like the reset from the heavy TRS and I really do not enjoy changing the trigger spring, even with the correct tool.

There is some debate. Some folks are using just the hard part of the kits without the springs and reporting okay with no issues. Others are saying you have to use the new trigger bar detent Spring...which I believe is true for the kit to be reliable. Folks are reporting that not using the medium TRS gives a mushy reset with the light spring. I think with the heavy spring you get what would be a short take up TLG and should be okay.

[LSP972]

I ll find out this weekend if that is real or perception on the range.


Yeah, you gotta try it to know.

I always had an issue, with range practice, double-clutching the longer P30/P2000 reset after being long accustomed to the shorter reset of the USPc/HK45C. But the time I actually shot the P30 the whole second day during one of Tom Givens' classes, I never had one issue with the P30 longer reset. I have always wondered whether the "busy training" made a difference... or I was just being a slob during "normal training".

Interestingly enough, it makes sense that the shorter take-up of the 4.1 LEM might be better for me with my short trigger finger, during presentations, to get better placed on the trigger like you mention. But I've been shooting the standard LEM, in various HK pistols, for over ten years now, and it simply has not been a problem for me.

Hey, I have an idea... make Wayne direct (and work you hard) your training for a day. You'll be responding... and not thinking about trigger differences. Then, you'll know for sure.;)

.

[Dagga Boy]

Yeah, you gotta try it to know.

I always had an issue, with range practice, double-clutching the longer P30/P2000 reset after being long accustomed to the shorter reset of the USPc/HK45C. But the time I actually shot the P30 the whole second day during one of Tom Givens' classes, I never had one issue with the P30 longer reset. I have always wondered whether the "busy training" made a difference... or I was just being a slob during "normal training".

Interestingly enough, it makes sense that the shorter take-up of the 4.1 LEM might be better for me with my short trigger finger, during presentations, to get better placed on the trigger like you mention. But I've been shooting the standard LEM, in various HK pistols, for over ten years now, and it simply has not been a problem for me.

Hey, I have an idea... make Wayne direct (and work you hard) your training for a day. You'll be responding... and not thinking about trigger differences. Then, you'll know for sure.;)

.

Yeah, that reset can zap you at times. I am hoping that moving to the medium TRS will help that. If it is a huge issue, I ll send the thing to Lazy Wolf for a short reset package. I have the Gray Guns short reset in a couple guns and I have found it nice but not critical.
We are teaching on Saturday and doing a hardcore day with a small group on Sunday and I figure I will have a good idea then. Last range day Wayne came up with a really difficult, yet very practical range drill that is super street applicable. I actually excelled at the drill with the P30SK because there are a bunch of little things that are problem and handling based that have to come into play before the marksmanship part. I am interested in running it with the 4.1.

[PD Sgt.]

There is some debate. Some folks are using just the hard part of the kits without the springs and reporting okay with no issues. Others are saying you have to use the new trigger bar detent Spring...which I believe is true for the kit to be reliable. Folks are reporting that not using the medium TRS gives a mushy reset with the light spring. I think with the heavy spring you get what would be a short take up TLG and should be okay.

Thanks, that is kind of what I was thinking as well but I wanted to make sure there was not a specific mechanical reason for the medium outlined in the kit before I spent the money.

[KG]

...with a 10-8 rear.

Thanks for mentioning that. The ability to use a 10-8 rear and other sight options seems to be an advantage of the P30SK over the P2000SK.

[Dagga Boy]

I have been doing some dry work tonight and am noticing something a bit different with this set up. With the 4.1 and medium TRS, it seems that you get solid tactile movement directly to the actual wall. One key to shooting the LEM is after you get rid of the movement, you still need to take out the slack before getting to the actual break. A lot of folks hit the slack, and go "now" and are shooting with slack in the trigger and usually the shots string vertically. I am finding with the dry work, it just builds and hits the wall very consistently. We'll see how it pans out. It actually reminds me more of a DA pull that is light.

[Dagga Boy]

Here is the current daily carry rig. It shows pretty well the new hammer and trigger position with the 4.1.

[JAD]

Here is the current daily carry rig. It shows pretty well the new hammer and trigger position with the 4.1.

Long way from the J frame lifestyle with 31 rounds on tap. What leather, may we ask?

[Dagga Boy]

Long way from the J frame lifestyle with 31 rounds on tap. What leather, may we ask?

Sort of a J frame lifestyle....still have one in my pocket everyday along with the SK. Safariland 27 for the P30 and a Safariland double mag pouch. I also have a single Safariland mag pouch if I go with a single VP9 mag, but so far I actually like the two tens.

[GJM]

Here is the current daily carry rig. It shows pretty well the new hammer and trigger position with the 4.1.

You are whatever the holster equivalent of a clothes horse is.

[Dagga Boy]

You are whatever the holster equivalent of a clothes horse is.

You should see the "collectable, bespoke, good stuff leather". It is a pretty disgusting level of holster addiction.

[Sam]

I'm eagerly waiting to get my P30 w 4.1 back from Lazy Wolf, this isn't helping.

[Dagga Boy]

Today, shot the gun a little during class. Too busy working the line to shoot much. Initially, didn't do well and not sure if it is me or the sights, but shooting left. End of the day settled down and things went better, but it was fairly close. Will shoot a couple hundred rounds through it tomorrow and figure it out. I "like" the trigger so far, but the performance is not as good as I was doing with the V1. We'll see.

[GJM]

Today, shot the gun a little during class. Too busy working the line to shoot much. Initially, didn't do well and not sure if it is me or the sights, but shooting left. End of the day settled down and things went better, but it was fairly close. Will shoot a couple hundred rounds through it tomorrow and figure it out. I "like" the trigger so far, but the performance is not as good as I was doing with the V1. We'll see.

Any chance you can shoot your 2000SK tomorrow, too?

[Dagga Boy]

Any chance you can shoot your 2000SK tomorrow, too?

I am going to be a bit short on time....managing a bunch of family and kid junk and trying to get some range time in. I did some dry work and am going to go back to a trigger press that I used with the TLG LEM that is very revolver like. With the V1's it was movement to engagement then consciously take up the actual slack and press. With the heavier trigger return springs, I am going to just press start to finish like a DA revolver, which is how I did the TLG guns. It is actually something I picked up from one of your posts.

Also, I don't really like how the dot sits in the 10-8 sight. If I use the top of the front sight, the dot is low in the U notch. Centering the dot (which my eyes seem to like) puts the top of the front sight a little high. I am going to shoot 50 rounds of HST to really figure out POI with my carry load and go from there.

I may have just had a bad day....we'll see.

[GJM]

I have lost track of how many guns, triggers, and grips I have fallen in love with dry firing, only to be surprised in live fire. The timer doesn't lie! As an example, the P30/HK45 grip feels so good in my hand, but the straight sided 45C, USP and P2000 seem to shoot better for me.

[Crusader8207]

Interesting note, most recently I have been carrying and shooting 1911s and my 340 M&P. Most of my dry practice has been on my 340. Last night I picked up the P30sk TLG (to prep it for carry this weekend) and I did some dry fire practice. I noticed I was using the revolver trigger "roll through" press. I actually commented to my shooting buddy that I noticed a huge difference using that method. I have the 4.1 parts on order, but I wonder if I should just leave it as is.


I am going to be a bit short on time....managing a bunch of family and kid junk and trying to get some range time in. I did some dry work and am going to go back to a trigger press that I used with the TLG LEM that is very revolver like. With the V1's it was movement to engagement then consciously take up the actual slack and press. With the heavier trigger return springs, I am going to just press start to finish like a DA revolver, which is how I did the TLG guns. It is actually something I picked up from one of your posts.

Also, I don't really like how the dot sits in the 10-8 sight. If I use the top of the front sight, the dot is low in the U notch. Centering the dot (which my eyes seem to like) puts the top of the front sight a little high. I am going to shoot 50 rounds of HST to really figure out POI with my carry load and go from there.

I may have just had a bad day....we'll see.

[Dagga Boy]

Couple things. First...I am just sucking more than usual lately and need to get back on my SIRT trainer regularly again. With that out of the way on personal responsibility...

Still running three inches high with my carry ammo (147 HST). The sight combo of an Hk stock front and 10-8 rear is not working well. I need to go to a high Dawson front.

Trigger....running a micro press out at speed and that is being done exactly like Wayne teaches the DA trigger stroke.

I am at the point where I have lost performance since going to the 4.1 LEM on the tests we use (Advanced Super Test, Vickers 300), but a lot of my point loss is shooting high while holding x. Before with the V1 and the other sights I was holding low. I "think" when I get a front and rear sight combo that works for my eyes and how I see the sights.

With all this said...I am dedicated to getting where I need to be performance wise because everything else about the gun works for me. Also......check your carry ammo. I had some very old HST in this thing that has been loaded and unloaded from a lot of magazines over the last 5 years. Also, a lot of chambering and unchambering. I recently got new ammo to replace this lot. I am glad I did. I had one failure to extract of a fired round. The case exhibited evidence that it was damaged. It looks like a magazine was dropped with the round taking the impact and damaging the mouth and side of the case. Unknown how and when this occurred as the round came out of a bag I have of carry ammo that goes into and out of the bag from many sources and magazines. The new practice will be to rotate from the same box/lot and shoot it up annually.

[11B10]

Got my P30SK back today from HK. I tried installing the 4.1 kit myself and was doing just fine until I got to the final part of the assembly and realized that aliens had taken the elbow spring. I had two guns going to HK anyways, so I threw the SK in along with a taller front sight, and to check my installation work on the 4.1 springs and properly finish the reassembly. All three guns were sent on a Thursday and back today (Wednesday). Great customer service and everyone at HK was great....contrary to the Internet.

I had very much fallen in love with the P30SK LEM for a daily carry gun with my current lifestyle and needs. I never thought I would move away from a service size gun, but I am finally there in life. I will still be shooting and carrying a VP-9 as my primary go to gun, but the SK is getting the lions share of daily concealed carry now for a number of reasons.

Initial thoughts on the 4.1 LEM....so far I like it. It will get shot a lot this weekend to confirm my thoughts. I find my initial finger placement on the trigger is noticeably better. The trigger has a lively feel and a lot of tactile feel back to the shooter. Compared to my VP9 the trigger is obviously much more tactile and long, but I find it very workable on a deep concealment appendix carry gun.

I ll post updates, but so far, this gun that I originally had no interest in has very much won me over.




nyeti - thanks for the update - please keep them coming. I have a great deal of interest in this firearm and have been trying to find one to shoot locally.

[11B10]

Here is the current daily carry rig. It shows pretty well the new hammer and trigger position with the 4.1.


Looks good - I am so frickin itchy to see if my impressions of how this gun "fits" me - are true.

[11B10]

Couple things. First...I am just sucking more than usual lately and need to get back on my SIRT trainer regularly again. With that out of the way on personal responsibility...

Still running three inches high with my carry ammo (147 HST). The sight combo of an Hk stock front and 10-8 rear is not working well. I need to go to a high Dawson front.

Trigger....running a micro press out at speed and that is being done exactly like Wayne teaches the DA trigger stroke.

I am at the point where I have lost performance since going to the 4.1 LEM on the tests we use (Advanced Super Test, Vickers 300), but a lot of my point loss is shooting high while holding x. Before with the V1 and the other sights I was holding low. I "think" when I get a front and rear sight combo that works for my eyes and how I see the sights.

With all this said...I am dedicated to getting where I need to be performance wise because everything else about the gun works for me. Also......check your carry ammo. I had some very old HST in this thing that has been loaded and unloaded from a lot of magazines over the last 5 years. Also, a lot of chambering and unchambering. I recently got new ammo to replace this lot. I am glad I did. I had one failure to extract of a fired round. The case exhibited evidence that it was damaged. It looks like a magazine was dropped with the round taking the impact and damaging the mouth and side of the case. Unknown how and when this occurred as the round came out of a bag I have of carry ammo that goes into and out of the bag from many sources and magazines. The new practice will be to rotate from the same box/lot and shoot it up annually.



This ^^^ is a great habit to develop. I have found several damaged rounds this way - have no recollection of dropping the mag or ? I must be even more clumsy than I thought!

[JPedersen]

I'm looking forward to hearing your updates to this and especially your feelings on the 4.1. I thought you had a P2000sk? What made you go with the P30sk over the other and will you entertain the VP9sk if it ever comes out?

This is precisely the question I was thinking... was there a particular feature that was the deciding factor in the p2000sk going the way of the "vacation home"?


I hanestly had "no need" for a P30SK because I love my P2000SK. Turns out, while I still like my P2000SK, I am sold on the P30SK for me as a better option. The P2000SK is likely going to get relegated specifically to carrying at my vacation home. I would definitely want a HK VP9SK. Not sure I would use it the same as the P30SK which has me back to daily AIWB carry. I am at a point in life where I am just not interested in constantly being in "totally switched on" that I am when I have a striker fired gun AIWB.

This sentiment has been motivating me as well. I am no where near as proficient as you... and so I am wondering if the factors that won you over to the p30sk would "work" for me as well. Are there things you can do with the p30sk that cannot be done with p2000? A particular part, trigger tune, configuration , etc?


I have lost track of how many guns, triggers, and grips I have fallen in love with dry firing, only to be surprised in live fire. The timer doesn't lie! As an example, the P30/HK45 grip feels so good in my hand, but the straight sided 45C, USP and P2000 seem to shoot better for me.

That "straight sided" ness is one of the things I think appeals to me in the grip /draw/ and press out on the P2000sk... I wonder if the thinnest / smallest SIDE panels on the p30sk could replicate the same feel. In addition, I don't know if the factors are the same when going from the "sk" to the full size counterpart.

Thank you all for taking the time to compile such great info thus far...

[Dagga Boy]

This is precisely the question I was thinking... was there a particular feature that was the deciding factor in the p2000sk going the way of the "vacation home"?



This sentiment has been motivating me as well. I am no where near as proficient as you... and so I am wondering if the factors that won you over to the p30sk would "work" for me as well. Are there things you can do with the p30sk that cannot be done with p2000? A particular part, trigger tune, configuration , etc?



That "straight sided" ness is one of the things I think appeals to me in the grip /draw/ and press out on the P2000sk... I wonder if the thinnest / smallest SIDE panels on the p30sk could replicate the same feel. In addition, I don't know if the factors are the same when going from the "sk" to the full size counterpart.

Thank you all for taking the time to compile such great info thus far...

I still love the P2000SK, especially for how I use it at my vacation place. Most of the accesories set up for it now and support stuff is directly related carrying at my vacation place, so that is a big part of that decision. I think the big thing with the P30 is that it is such a familiar grip to me, and the grip tunes well to my needs. Also, sights are a much easier process. I have a non-scientific opinion that the P30SK is a better shooting gun, and the P2000SK likely carries better for deep concealment. I have tough skin and am not as sensitive to the side panels of the P30SK as most. The flat sides of the P2000 and Hk45C's are great for carry against bare skin.

A couple years ago, the P2000SK pulled Yeomans duty for me on a couple different things where it was about perfect (which is why it took so long to get a P30SK). I should do some shooting with the P2000SK as GJM suggested to make sure I am doing as well with the P30SK as I was with the V1 LEM. The P2000SK still has a V1 in it, so it may be an interesting comparison against the P30Sk with the V4.1 LEM.

While the P30Sk is working for me right now as an alternative to carrying a VP9 all the time (which I have been doing since it was released (minus a month I spent doing a test with a snub...and the VP9 was usually still accesable for a real emergency). With that said, I would never talk anyone out of the P2000SK as it is still one of my top choices for a sub compact.

[JPedersen]

This makes total sense. In some ways I am seeing how outfitting a "pair" of pistols is quite different than purchasing a stand alone in one sector. The sights are a real factor that may prove to be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back. Do you feel the p2000 is in danger of being phased out? (So grab one now?) Or is your hunch that it will hang around ? (Grab one later down the road?) I am not as familiar with H&K ... But seeing as the USP's are still around I am guessing the p2000 won't get p7'ed anytime soon. Could be wrong though.


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[GJM]

This makes total sense. In some ways I am seeing how outfitting a "pair" of pistols is quite different than purchasing a stand alone in one sector. The sights are a real factor that may prove to be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back. Do you feel the p2000 is in danger of being phased out? (So grab one now?) Or is your hunch that it will hang around ? (Grab one later down the road?) I am not as familiar with H&K ... But seeing as the USP's are still around I am guessing the p2000 won't get p7'ed anytime soon. Could be wrong though.


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HCM can probably estimate numbers, but I think there are more HK P2000 .40 pistols in federal service, than any other HK handgun.

[JPedersen]

HCM can probably estimate numbers, but I think there are more HK P2000 .40 pistols in federal service, than any other HK handgun.

That is true. I forgot how the p2000 was part of a historic gov contract... One of the largest pistol purchases of its kind at the time. ($26 million dollars IIRC) I guess it is fair to think that means parts support and availability for awhile. Good point - thank you GJM.

[jc000]

Nyeti, you are the man when it comes to insightful HK / LEM commentary, so as someone who has been looking into V4.1 for some time, this thread is very much appreciated.

One of the issues I find with the standard long travel LEM is my tendency to want to stage the trigger rather than a consistent press. Do you feel that 4.1 makes a consistent revolver-like press easier?

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti, you are the man when it comes to insightful HK / LEM commentary, so as someone who has been looking into V4.1 for some time, this thread is very much appreciated.

One of the issues I find with the standard long travel LEM is my tendency to want to stage the trigger rather than a consistent press. Do you feel that 4.1 makes a consistent revolver-like press easier?

I am seeing almost an enhancement of that. The 4.1 with the medium TRS lets you run the hammer right back to the near break, just like we can often do with a revolver. Wayne shot my gun for pure accuracy to determine how far off the sights still are and at 25 yards it is exactly how he shot and what I do at distance. Closer in at speed, I run the stroke just like a d/a revolver. With the lighter LEM's I find a distinct difference in take up, slack, and finally the break. It is important to make sure not to press the trigger with slack left in it as you get the typical LEM vertical stringing.

[Wayne Dobbs]

That 4.1 conversion is very nice and I'm going to switch out a P2000SK and at some point, my P2000 also. Shooting Darryl's P30SK with the 4.1 was very nice!

[Dagga Boy]

I will also add something I have found over the years with the LEM. I shoot them far better when I am not thinking about it. Weirdly, I am the same with a 1911. Shooting some drill with a score attached, or a pre thought course of fire or doing accuracy work....I gack the trigger on both systems like a champ. Doing pure surprise or non-thinking speed stuff....I do far better. Don't know why...just is.

[GJM]

I bet a PF dollar, 4.1 follows the normal pattern of HK stuff.

The basic problem with HK hammer pistols, is everyone loves the gun, but wishes the trigger was better. HK does innovation in years and decades, not days and months. Then there is a rumored improvement, like the 4.1. It is "just thirty days off" for two or three years. Then folks get it, sure it is going to be awesome. Then the dust settles, and it is still an HK hammer gun trigger.

If you are an HK fan boy and want a good trigger, there is an answer and it starts with VP.

[NCmtnman]

I will also add something I have found over the years with the LEM. I shoot them far better when I am not thinking about it. .

I have found the same to be true for me. Turn my brain off and I can run the LEM just as fast and as accurately as a Glock. As soon as I slow down and start to think about my trigger press, I begin to fall apart. I think the LEM just gives me more time and room for error and to think about slamming the trigger. My brain is the darn problem.

[breakingtime91]

I bet a PF dollar, 4.1 follows the normal pattern of HK stuff.

The basic problem with HK hammer pistols, is everyone loves the gun, but wishes the trigger was better. HK does innovation in years and decades, not days and months. Then there is a rumored improvement, like the 4.1. It is "just thirty days off" for two or three years. Then folks get it, sure it is going to be awesome. Then the dust settles, and it is still an HK hammer gun trigger.

If you are an HK fan boy and want a good trigger, there is an answer and it starts with VP.

since when is striker a good trigger? I can't keep up with the trends on this forum anymore.

[OnionsAndDragons]

I will also add something I have found over the years with the LEM. I shoot them far better when I am not thinking about it. Weirdly, I am the same with a 1911. Shooting some drill with a score attached, or a pre thought course of fire or doing accuracy work....I gack the trigger on both systems like a champ. Doing pure surprise or non-thinking speed stuff....I do far better. Don't know why...just is.

I'm nowhere as accomplished as most of the LEM fans here, but I experience this as well.

Any of the speed/thinking/acquisition/ID drills I do, I shoot as well or better with the LEM as I do a Glock or VP9. On slow, longer distance work, I am slightly but noticeably better and more consistent with the striker guns.


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[EVP]

I have not used the 4.1 LEMs but I have heard people say it really does not provide much improvement besides the 1/3 reduction. Seems more people were wanting something that would bring the reset to more reasonable length.


We're are people picking up the 4.1 kits? HK USA?

[psalms144.1]

I will also add something I have found over the years with the LEM. I shoot them far better when I am not thinking about it. Weirdly, I am the same with a 1911. Shooting some drill with a score attached, or a pre thought course of fire or doing accuracy work....I gack the trigger on both systems like a champ. Doing pure surprise or non-thinking speed stuff....I do far better. Don't know why...just is.I agree. Shot my P2000 with LEM last week in qual, shot very nice tight centered groups all the way back to the 15 yard line with no problem. On the 25, with too much time and trying to shoot a "clean" 300 point qual - yanked two low into the 3 ring (rings are 5-3-1 points on our qual targets). My P2000 is "TLG" LEM, not the new-fangled 4.1...

I will say I shot the easiest 300 of my life with my VP9 :cool:

[psalms144.1]

The basic problem with HK hammer pistols, is everyone loves the gun, but wishes the trigger was better. HK does innovation in years and decades, not days and months. Then there is a rumored improvement, like the 4.1. It is "just thirty days off" for two or three years. Then folks get it, sure it is going to be awesome. Then the dust settles, and it is still an HK hammer gun trigger.

If you are an HK fan boy and want a good trigger, there is an answer and it starts with VP.GJM - we're going to have to get you an "Official HK hater" t-shirt - and I know you carry them, with hammers!

[PD Sgt.]

Just a quick note, I tried to order the 4.1 kit and some other parts this afternoon for one of my P2000s from HKUSA. The lady I spoke with was not familiar with the kit so she had me hold while she talked to an armorer. When she returned she told me that according to the armorer, the 4.1 would not work in a P2000, just the P30 series. I am travelling right now so I was not able to ask any other questions about why or if the armorer gave a specific reason.

The question then is if anyone has installed or had this installed on a P2000 and how is it working?

[GJM]

GJM - we're going to have to get you an "Official HK hater" t-shirt - and I know you carry them, with hammers!

I am kind of bi on them -- love and hate them. Just shot a porky at 3 yards near our dog with an HK, a few minutes ago, so I am in the love camp at this moment. Will write that up in the AK Journal thread.

[jc000]

The question then is if anyone has installed or had this installed on a P2000 and how is it working?

You can (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20405-P2000-Carry-Pistol-Setup-and-the-v4-1-Conversion) – doesn't seem recommended by HK for some reason.

[Dagga Boy]

I am kind of bi on them -- love and hate them. Just shot a porky at 3 yards near our dog with an HK, a few minutes ago, so I am in the love camp at this moment. Will write that up in the AK Journal thread.

That will likely put you in a protected victim class. It s really in right now. So what bathroom do you use when carrying the HK? By the way, this is a test......there is a correct answer. Show your work, don't just guess.

[GJM]

That will likely put you in a protected victim class. It s really in right now. So what bathroom do you use when carrying the HK? By the way, this is a test......there is a correct answer. Show your work, don't just guess.

Both.

I learned that from SLG.

[Dagga Boy]

Both.

I learned that from SLG.

No, the men's room...period. Because "In A World of Compromise, Some MEN Won't". Still have my HK bumper sticker for the non PC days. Heck, even SLG knows that.

[JPedersen]

No, the men's room...period. Because "In A World of Compromise, Some MEN Won't". Still have my HK bumper sticker for the non PC days. Heck, even SLG knows that.

^^ This ... Laughing out loud right now !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[KG]

Also, I don't really like how the dot sits in the 10-8 sight. If I use the top of the front sight, the dot is low in the U notch. Centering the dot (which my eyes seem to like) puts the top of the front sight a little high.

I had the same problem with my P2000. The dot on the front sight was too low, even with just a blacked-out factory rear. When I installed the same height Dawson Precision tritium/white ring front sight I found out the dot was higher on the blade with the Dawson front. Now when the top of the sights are lined up the dot is in the middle of the rear notch where I expect it. Maybe the HK factory dot is just too low on the blade.

[GJM]

Just received this from Nyeti:

Okay George, I did as you requested at the range today comparing the P30Sk with the 4.1 LEM versus the P2000SK with the V1.
General thoughts and observations. First, as much as it disturbs me as an HK owner....I used a timer. Here are my feelings. I worked several Hackathorn tests. I was at an indoor range with terrible lighting where I was in the range (you pay the price to not shoot around other people), and glasses were constantly fogged up. The Test is something I do a lot, so it is fairly neutral. Both guns shot almost identical as far as accuracy (90-94 average). The surprise was two fold. I felt my control on the gun was better with the P30SK and the sights seemed to pick up better. The controls also seem better (I have the flat slide releases in the P2000SK as it is set up for deep concealment). The trigger in the P30SK as it sits gives great feedback, but is noticeably harder to work. The P2000SK with the V1 LEM was much easier to shoot and was literally a full second faster on my times for a near identical result. I think with better sights, the P2000SK with light LEM can deliver better performance. As we have discussed, adding a couple pounds to your trigger pull will not be any help on the accuracy work by simple logic. A majority of my LEM guns are now V1 LEM's.
The P30SK was better for me in close on delivering 5 yard failure drills. I think it handles a bit more like a bigger pistol (reloads, and general functioning). I shot both guns with 13 round P2000 mags with the pinky extensions to give me a full grip on both. I think the better performance on the shorter range drills was due to where my finger hits the trigger with the 4.1 and the harder reset push for the body pair, and the head shot done from the reset point without take up. Working single heads from the ready, win goes to the P2000SK. Again, working through a couple less pounds of trigger made the shots easier and more precise.
The last week I have been carrying the P2000SK at the water in Havasu, and my VP9 in the large black fanny pack when off the water, so I haven't touched the P30SK. I have to go to California a couple times next week, so the P30SK will be primary. Of course, everything I shot today was far better with the VP9. I also shot my pet 4" Model 14 .38......I scared myself as to how good I shot, but I have also been using it for my dry practice gun for a week.

Overall thoughts. I will be rethinking the P2000SK, especially with the new sight option Jody H is using. With its flat sides, shoot ability, concealment slide releases, it is optimal for a deep concealment gun for me. I usually carry it with a 10 round flat mag in it, and VP9 spare magazines.
The P30SK will remain in the role I have been using it for. Daily carry when I don't want to run the VP 9 in the fanny pack as it is possible for me to holster carry the P30SK in the Raptor's seats where I cannot carry the VP9 in a holster. Where the P30SK has been great is for carrying in California. I have made numerous trips with it. I carry 5, ten round magazines with it. Makes travel easy with one box of Federal HST and the 5, ten round mags. It conceals well under light clothes and runs well for me from 12:30 AIWB, even while fat. I have been in numerous venues where it was critical my pistol did not print at all. I also usually carry a ultra lightweight j frame with it in a pocket. The extra weight of the trigger does not seem to be a negative in drills that best replicate how the gun will likely be used.....drawing to a shot from concealment from front appendix, and then likely having to reholster in chaos. I have been doing a ton of work on keeping a thumb on the back of the hammer to make this a sub conscious handling skill. I only carry it with ten round magazines, so the finger grooves and side panels seem to be a plus. I honestly think I shot the gun better with the light LEM in it during drills involving more range, but I do like the 4.1. The medium Trigger Return Spring in the 4.1 is better than using the heavy spring in the TLG conversion.
The VP9.....still my go to in a semi auto service pistol, and a VP9SK is on my short list when they come out. With that said I am now back in debate mode with the P30SK and the P2000SK.

Take care pal-DB

[CCT125US]

Very nice. I am a fan of the P2000 and the SK. I am able to shoot them to almost the same level based on my standard drills. I should shoot the P30 v1 this week to get some current comparisons.

[Luke]

Nyeti, I know your online :) I can see you are viewing this thread right meow. Please come back. We miss you.

[GJM]

Nyeti, I know your online :) I can see you are viewing this thread right meow. Please come back. We miss you.

He is viewing right now, but it is almost certainly girls in bikinis on the water in Lake Havasu.

[Dave Williams]

Have you told him to just get a Gen3 G19?......I mean if it's good enough for CAG and DEVGRU? Probably good enough for DB. No?

[breakingtime91]

Have you told him to just get a Gen3 G19?......I mean if it's good enough for CAG and DEVGRU? Probably good enough for DB. No?

No

[GJM]

Have you told him to just get a Gen3 G19?......I mean if it's good enough for CAG and DEVGRU? Probably good enough for DB. No?


No


I considered asking him to test a Glock in there, but realized even friendship has limits.

[Matthew]

Very nice. I am a fan of the P2000 and the SK. I am able to shoot them to almost the same level based on my standard drills. I should shoot the P30 v1 this week to get some current comparisons.

Although I'm a LEM-trigger neophyte, I'm working through the same comparison, P2000 vs P30 V1.

[Wayne Dobbs]

He is viewing right now, but it is almost certainly girls in bikinis on the water in Lake Havasu.

He sent me a picture of one of those girls, but I was cheated. She only had on half a bikini!

[Luke]

Funny lookin bikini :)


http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp81/hook_setter/667304E7-4048-45EB-9DDE-6C1EFF6B6E68_zpsi5x89dpm.png (http://s400.photobucket.com/user/hook_setter/media/667304E7-4048-45EB-9DDE-6C1EFF6B6E68_zpsi5x89dpm.png.html)


Now come on back now ya hear!!!

[GJM]

Gee, Nyeti can't even lurk in private.

Wayne, lets divide the labor -- I will post Darryl's manifestos but you need to post his pictures.

[psalms144.1]

Just no more "flash bang" photos with the Viking helmet and nothing else. PLEASE!

[NCmtnman]

Nyeti, do you think that with the same trigger set up (V1) in both guns that you would still lean towards the P2000sk or is the preference more of the gun model itself?

[TCB]

Sooooo...if someone was issued a P2000 in .40 and kind of hated it but carried it pretty much 24/7 and absolutely loved his VP9 that he trained with a lot and shot the shit out of, he should probably buy one of these with the light LEM as a off duty pistol right? Hypothetically...(my wife is looking at me like I'm about to spend $).

[GJM]

Sooooo...if someone was issued a P2000 in .40 and kind of hated it but carried it pretty much 24/7 and absolutely loved his VP9 that he trained with a lot and shot the shit out of, he should probably buy one of these with the light LEM as a off duty pistol right? Hypothetically...(my wife is looking at me like I'm about to spend $).

Nyeti has said previously on PF, that the VP9 is the striker pistol with the most LEM like trigger, so I would pass on another LEM and spring for a FDE VP9. Since last I heard, he was headed for injun territory, and I think I have his signature stamp, I would be glad to write you a note for your wife to authorize the VP9 purchase.

[Luke]

Nyeti has forgotten more than I will ever know about guns, and I respect his option. With that said, how in the world did he come up with the VP9 being close to a LEM? I thought the VP9 had a very short travel light trigger that broke very far forward.

[GJM]

Nyeti has forgotten more than I will ever know about guns, and I respect his option. With that said, how in the world did he come up with the VP9 being close to a LEM? I thought the VP9 had a very short travel light trigger that broke very far forward.

Don't shoot the messenger. Now I know what Josh Earnest feels like most days. :)

[Cincinnatus]

Nyeti has forgotten more than I will ever know about guns, and I respect his option. With that said, how in the world did he come up with the VP9 being close to a LEM? I thought the VP9 had a very short travel light trigger that broke very far forward.

It is not identical to it; it is like the LEM in the sense that the VP9 trigger could be compared to the V2 LEM, minus all the takeup, and will a different trigger shape and shorter reset. It is the *most* like the LEM, not identical to it.
Also, shooting LEM and switching over to the VP9 is fairly smooth compared to some other combinations one might try.

[GJM]

HK love runs deep and can cause some interesting thinking. :)

[Luke]

HK love runs deep and can cause some interesting thinking. :)

I'm probably the only hardcore HK fanboy who hates HK. So I'm already weird even by HK lovers standards.

[RJ]

I'm probably the only hardcore HK fanboy who hates HK. So I'm already weird even by HK lovers standards.

I realized the other day I shoot my M&P better by numeric score than my VP9.

*ducks and runs*

:cool:

[breakingtime91]

I realized the other day I shoot my M&P better by numeric score than my VP9.

*ducks and runs*

:cool:

At what distance ��

[RJ]

At what distance ��

I was just poking fun. :)

(It's 25 yards.)

[breakingtime91]

Dang it my :cool: didn't work via my phone lol sorry rich

[TCB]

I found a good deal on a lightly used one of these (light LEM trigger) for a new off duty gun and am excited to see how it runs. Is anyone useing extended base plates for them? I'm figuring that I'll run a VP mag as a reload but the extended baseplates seem like they be good to keep in it with the 10 round mag. The TF +0 competition and the HK parts +1 are the 2 that look interesting to me. IWB holster recommendation? I carry 3:30...

Also...anyone have a spare factory tritium front sight they'd be willing to sell? This one is a non N/S version but I've got a take off rear I could use.

[RJ]

I found a good deal on a lightly used one of these (light LEM trigger) for a new off duty gun and am excited to see how it runs. Is anyone useing extended base plates for them? I'm figuring that I'll run a VP mag as a reload but the extended baseplates seem like they be good to keep in it with the 10 round mag. The TF +0 competition and the HK parts +1 are the 2 that look interesting to me. IWB holster recommendation? I carry 3:30...

Also...anyone have a spare factory tritium front sight they'd be willing to sell? This one is a non N/S version but I've got a take off rear I could use.

I was browsing for information on the 4.1 conversion and found this thread. Not sure I want to change at this point, but I didn't see this post answered, so thought I'd take a whack after owning a P30SK V1 for about five months and 400 rounds.

Extended Base Plates - Yes. I have the aluminum pinky +0 from HK Parts. I do not like it. It is very slick. I shoot with the flat floorplate mags just as well.

IWB - No help. I use an OWB Mitch Rosen "Upper Limit" high riding leather holster suggested by GJM every day. It's awesome. I conceal with a XL T Shirt or Polo, no problem.

[TCB]

I've pretty much settled on carrying it with the flat base plate in a JM IWB and a P2000 13 round mag for a reload...it runs great. I'm +\- 650 rounds through it and it hasn't had a problem yet. I put a 10-8 rear on it with the factory trittium front and it hits just a hair over the top of the front sight at 15 yards. Great carry gun, although I'm thinking I might swap it for the VPsk when it comes out?

[GAP]

Edit: Finish coffee then read post correctly.

[Duelist]

That's because striker fired pistols are easier to shoot. But, all of a sudden everyone is afraid of carrying one and thinks their needs mirrors a cop's who holds people at gun point multiple times per year.

Disclaimer: I know, practice enough and the DA shot, LEM, whatever can be just as good. I'm talking about the majority of concealed carriers who don't shoot 10s of thousands of rounds or more per year.

The VP9 is a fully pre-tensioned striker, and very easy to shoot. We're that my only criteria for choosing a gun, I'd have several of them and be anxiously, impatiently awaiting the VP9SK.

Really tempted by the P30SK.

[GAP]

The VP9 is a fully pre-tensioned striker, and very easy to shoot. We're that my only criteria for choosing a gun, I'd have several of them and be anxiously, impatiently awaiting the VP9SK.

Really tempted by the P30SK.

My brain read P30sk LEM whoops I'm wrong he said VP9.

[RJ]

I've pretty much settled on carrying it with the flat base plate in a JM IWB and a P2000 13 round mag for a reload...it runs great. I'm +\- 650 rounds through it and it hasn't had a problem yet. I put a 10-8 rear on it with the factory trittium front and it hits just a hair over the top of the front sight at 15 yards. Great carry gun, although I'm thinking I might swap it for the VPsk when it comes out?

Cool.

Do you find any POI shift from changing to the 10 8 rear and factory night sights (I guess they are Meprolights?)?

What hold would you use at say 25 yards? Cover the dot?

[TCB]

I didn't notice any shift, but, I didn't shoot it for groups. Most of my other HKs are hitting just at or slightly below the top of the front sight (my duty gun with HDs on it id approx. 2" below the front sight at 3 yards (makes dot torture...interesting) but climbs to drive the dot by 7 and gets close to the top of the front sight by 25). All I had with me at the range after installing the 10-8 rear was a 1/2 size steel so I just shot the extreme edges (bottom, top, both sides) at approx. 15-20 yards and was getting hits...As I remember it, it was hitting no more than 2" above the top of the front sight with correct windage for me (I was shooting off hand so again...rough estimates). Basically If I held at the bottom edge of the plate I rang it, more than an inch or two below, nothing...good enough for me with a pistol that small off hand at that distance. It's a very shootable little gun. As much as I hate the regular LEM in our duty pistols (the shape of the P2000 grip does not play well with my hand size either) the Lite LEM in this thing is a very useable trigger. I'm still pretty sure I'm gonna swap it for the VP version when it hits though...

[RJ]

^^^ Cool, thanks.

Sorry for 20 questions, but is this the 10 8 sight you installed?

Which notch width did you pick if so?

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170404/5a09b7a6579b4dcea05b1183b0a003e4.jpg

I'm tired of continually sharpie-ing my rear glow in the darks. I DO NOT want the rear razor blades (Trijicon HDs) again. I'd need two, one for the VP9 and one for the P30SK (I'm hopeful they are the same sight dovetails?)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Wondering Beard]

I don't have a P30SK, but I do have a VP9 with, right now HDs on it and I will change them soon to 10-8s which i have already purchased.

To answer your some of your questions Rich, 1) that photo is what it should look like, 2) 10-8 rears aren't sharp (I have them on various Glocks as well), 3) notch width can be dependent on front sight width, with a tritium .125 wide front sight, I like the .156 rear (I have old eyes that don't like two glowing dots in the rear and like you, I'm tired of re-sharpie-ing the HDs rear) but with the .115 FO front, I use the .140 rear (it feels more like narrow target sights but the front FO is still very easy and fast to pick up) and those are the ones going onto the VP9.

I hope this helps some.

[RJ]

I don't have a P30SK, but I do have a VP9 with, right now HDs on it and I will change them soon to 10-8s which i have already purchased.

To answer your some of your questions Rich, 1) that photo is what it should look like, 2) 10-8 rears aren't sharp (I have them on various Glocks as well), 3) notch width can be dependent on front sight width, with a tritium .125 wide front sight, I like the .156 rear (I have old eyes that don't like two glowing dots in the rear and like you, I'm tired of re-sharpie-ing the HDs rear) but with the .115 FO front, I use the .140 rear (it feels more like narrow target sights but the front FO is still very easy and fast to pick up) and those are the ones going onto the VP9.

I hope this helps some.

Thanks, very useful.

Vs. ordering two sights ($100) plus arranging for delivery (time) plus sorting out someone to press them in place ($/time) I am contemplating just painting the OEM sights over.

The stock HK sights can't be *that* expensive even if I screw them up. And I don't ever see wanting a sight picture with big yellow phosphorescent dots on the rear sights.

Plus I have decent matte black spray paint on board and a big supply of blue painters tape. I think I'll likely just go that route in the short term (and possibly just long term).

Then I'll have a stock blacked out picture, and can then work on what to do about the glow in the dark front sight (if anything) after my class with Mr. Proctor 21 April in Ft Worth.

Thanks again WB!

[Wondering Beard]

Sounds like a good plan.

Your class with Proctor should provide you with plenty of information and practice so as to figure out which way you may want to go.

Try out his V-notch rear and FO front while you're there, it just may be something you like, or something you dislike sufficiently, to point you where you want to go.

Classes with high quality instructors not only serve to make you a better shooter but as a good test of hardware (figuring out what works and doesn't for you by sending plenty of supervised rounds downrange in tough drills) and you get to play around some with what other people brought. The learning that can happen in that environment is wider and deeper than easily imagined.

[TCB]

Rich, that's the one I have on my sk & one of my VP9s. I'm useing the stock front with the .140 notch on the 10-8 rear. It's a good sight picture for me...I'd prefer a narrower front over a wider rear personality if I wanted larger light bars on either side. I took a class with Proctor in Ft. Worth a couple years ago, keep an open mind and you'll learn a lot. I blacked out the rear dots on my duty gun as well as my training guns for a long time before getting some HDs issued. Even blacked out you can still see the dots, HDs are better but I've found for me a blank rear (serrated) is my preferred sight picture. Paird with a serrated front FO is the best for me for shooting but I do like a trittium front with a visible outline on a social gun. I really wish someone would make a serrated trittium front sight with a hi-vis outline (like the HDs but regular hight/width), seems like it would be the best compromise and they would sell like hot cakes.

[The Apprentice]

The 10-8 rear with a dawson fiber front is my favorite sight set up I have them on my vp9 and plan on putting them on a vp9sk when they are available. HD's used to be my standard but I find the fiber optic draws my eye better also the thinner front helps with precision. Unless you are rather picky about finish a little blue painters tape, a bench vice, hammer, and punch is all you need to change the sights.