Any EAA Witness owners or experts ?

[busykngt]

I've got an opportunity at an EAA Witness in .45 caliber AND I don't know a lot (or anything) about EAA quality, etc.

I'm looking for comments (the good, the bad & the ugly) about it. It's not striker fired, right? How's the weight & recoil on the 45 cal version? And maybe most importantly, what's a fair price for a lightly used pistol (and what would be a great price)? Any recalls on the 45 model? Any other constructive thoughts / comments would be appreciated.


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[PNWTO]

Forgive the bluntness, but - so you haven't physically handled it? That is usually the fastest way to regret.

I've heard mixed reviews about EAA, most of which may be due to perception of "Tangfolio" for better or worse. A friend has 9mm Witness and it seems okay; not for me.

If you are looking at a DA/SA .45, I would heartily suggest taking a look at the P220 series.

[Bigghoss]

The EAA Witness pistols are copies of the CZ75 and derivitaves, from what I've heard of the EAA's you would be much better served by a CZ. I've heard a good deal of chatter about cracked frames and just spotty reliability in general and one person I know had one that didn't work and when it went back to the factory they just lost it and gave him a different model. All of these reports are coming from casual shooters, not folks that actually train and practice like most of the folks on this board. If it's just for farting around with at the range, eh maybe, but if you want something for more than just recreation then pass.

[Gadfly]

I owned a witness in .40 that was marked Tanfoglio. It was one of the biggest pieces of shit I ever owned. I so wanted to like it. It fit my hand so well. But it just sucked. Vertically strug groups. The safety liked to kick itself on durring recoil (no, it was not my flicking it on, we tested that theory) sent it back to the factory and the safety still kicked on. The factory advice was to hold my thumb down on the safety. Yes, that works, but the gun should function as designed.

Also, the reverse rails really suck for fast slide manipulation. Overall, I liked it at the store, but when trying to fire it at real speed and work the controls, it sucked. Poor reliability.

The new ones may be better. But my sample of one (around 1996) was crap.

The actual CZ brand metal guns feel much smoother. The 9mm CZ-75 is what has a reputation for being a good gun. The copies just don't sem to add up.

[GardoneVT]

I've got an opportunity at an EAA Witness in .45 caliber AND I don't know a lot (or anything) about EAA quality, etc.

I'm looking for comments (the good, the bad & the ugly) about it. It's not striker fired, right? How's the weight & recoil on the 45 cal version? And maybe most importantly, what's a fair price for a lightly used pistol (and what would be a great price)? Any recalls on the 45 model? Any other constructive thoughts / comments would be appreciated.


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Forget the brand exists. After all, EAA already has.

While the quality of their $550+ pistols isn't bad and Tangfos do have some internal improvements on the CZ components ,EAA is the designated parts and support center for US customers. Which means Tangfos effectively don't have US parts and logistics support at all. Consider it a gray market import, but without the grey market hipster cachet.

Whatever use one may have for a Tangfo, a CZ would be a better substitute. Now if the Brothers Tanfoglio back their US customer base directly , that may change.

[YVK]

I have EAA Witness / Tanfoglio Stock II in 9 mm worked over by Jim Bodkin. The thing is like crack. You shoot it, you want to shoot it more and more, and you don't want to shoot anything else. It is a purely gaming gun and it is finicky like nothing else I've ever owned. That doesn't change the crack thing. No experience with 45 though.

[pangloss]

I've got an opportunity at an EAA Witness in .45 caliber AND I don't know a lot (or anything) about EAA quality, etc.

I'm looking for comments (the good, the bad & the ugly) about it. It's not striker fired, right? How's the weight & recoil on the 45 cal version? And maybe most importantly, what's a fair price for a lightly used pistol (and what would be a great price)? Any recalls on the 45 model? Any other constructive thoughts / comments would be appreciated.


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Do you have huge hands? To me the CZ 97s feel like they were made for giants, so I guess the same would be true with the EAA pistol. I definitely think you should handle the pistol before buying.

[Handy]

I had a Witness Carry Comp .45 - compact slide with an external single port comp. The semi-staggered 10 round mag made the grip size very reasonable. All the current metal Witness pistols use this same grip frame.

The chamber was tight, so I didn't shoot it as much as I wanted because my reloads didn't chamber well. It was among the more accurate pistols I've ever shot - very close to 1" groups at 25 yards. I think the lockup on the comp had something to do with that. I thought the overall quality was very good - better than the Tanfoglio based 1994 Baby Eagle I also had at that time. Especially for the price at the time.

DB Middlebrooks used to teach and modify these pistols extensively and Daniel Horner competed with them (I shot in Daniel's club).


Anyway, if Numrich can support the pistol for you and the price is right, I don't think it is a bad gun at all. There are excellent guns from crap companies and guns that require great warranty coverage. This is the first.

[Willard]

It is a purely gaming gun and it is finicky like nothing else I've ever owned. That doesn't change the crack thing. No experience with 45 though.

I keep reading that gamers want as reliable gun as anyone else and real duty use vs gamer dichotomy is arbitrary distinction. However, I don't know what this post means...guns that don't function reliably are not crack to me. What am I missing?

[YVK]

When gun is set up with 5.5 DA trigger and 2.5 SA trigger, it will be finicky in regards to ammo that you have to feed it. When you drop a recoil spring tension to 8 lbs so this thing stays flat, you might get an occasional feeding stoppage that you'll have to address either by accepting a small chance of it, or bumping up that spring, or what have you. Gamers want their guns to be as reliable as anyone else for the duration of a stage, and then they proceed to cleaning their dropped mags after each run unless their guns are Glocks. I don't believe for a second that true purpose built gamer guns vs real use guns is an arbitrary distinction. I am shooting this thing better that anything else I've shot and that's addicting. I am willing to put up with extra maintenance, ammo requirements and occasional light strike for the fun of burning through the drills but there is no way in hell would I trust it to carry. Not that I want to carry a 44 oz 9 mm gun.

[Gary1911A1]

I have them, but they are the Elite Models out of Italy and have little to do with EAA. Unless it's an Elite Series, I'd pass and look at the CZ 97 or Sig 220. Even a used example or either would be better than a regular Witness put together by EAA.

[GardoneVT]

I have them, but they are the Elite Models out of Italy and have little to do with EAA. Unless it's an Elite Series, I'd pass and look at the CZ 97 or Sig 220. Even a used example or either would be better than a regular Witness put together by EAA.

All Witnesses are made in Italy. The Elite models have more fit and finish work done then the regular "Steel" Witness models. Depending on the users desired intent an Elite can be an amazing value for the features included, and they work well enough for serious competition use.


I had a Witness Carry Comp .45 - compact slide with an external single port comp. The semi-staggered 10 round mag made the grip size very reasonable. All the current metal Witness pistols use this same grip frame.

The chamber was tight, so I didn't shoot it as much as I wanted because my reloads didn't chamber well. It was among the more accurate pistols I've ever shot - very close to 1" groups at 25 yards. I think the lockup on the comp had something to do with that. I thought the overall quality was very good - better than the Tanfoglio based 1994 Baby Eagle I also had at that time. Especially for the price at the time.

DB Middlebrooks used to teach and modify these pistols extensively and Daniel Horner competed with them (I shot in Daniel's club).


Anyway, if Numrich can support the pistol for you and the price is right, I don't think it is a bad gun at all. There are excellent guns from crap companies and guns that require great warranty coverage. This is the first.

Tanfoglio has what I would consider average reliability. They're not crap, but they're not Beretta 92 reliable either.

What makes them an unwise purchase Stateside is the total lack of consistent support. EAA is the only authorized outlet for modern Witness pistols , which means they're effectively unsupported.

Numrich has some parts for these guns-but only the pre-2005 models. After that year EAA started importing the "large frame" Witness in all calibers. Some details:

Pre 2005 ,9mm and 40 S&W shipped with different sized frames then the 45ACP, 38 supers and 10mm. Which makes sense due to the different cartridge lengths. Problem was this meant the "Small Frame" guns couldn't interchange with the "Large Frame" components- A 9mm Witness could not run a .45 ACP upper, but a pistol sold as a 45/10mm/.38 Super with the large frame could run a 9mm upper with the appropriate magazine .

After years of this confusion EAA decided to import only one frame size- the Large One. Which means someone with an 05+ 9mm Tangfo has an orphaned gun, as Numrich , Hennings and others only carry legacy parts for the Small Frame pistols.
Parts intended to fit the Large Frame guns can be sourced from only one place- EAA.

It's a lottery whether or not the part you order from them is the one you'll get.

Making matters weirder-the 05+ Large Frame 9mm and 40 S&W use proprietary magazines on account of the frames being different. It's a logistical mess ; you can't really be sure Part X will fit the gun you have until you get it, and if it doesn't or needs warranty work you're at the mercy of EAA. It's like owning a British TVR sports car- you are your own warranty fulfillment center should something wear out or break.

[Lester Polfus]

When I got off active duty in 1999 I bought myself two things to celebrate: a 1977 Les Paul Guitar, and a EAA Witness in .45 ACP. Clearly that's been a little while ago, so some things with the Witness may have changed, but a quick glance at the website shows some of them haven't.

Here is what I experienced:

1) While technically a DA/SA gun, there is no decocker. Thus, the only way to use the DA trigger pull is to pull the trigger on a live round and ease the hammer down. If you do that enough times, there's a pretty good chance you will screw it up once.

2) The gun shot slightly low. The front sight was cast integrally to the slide, so replacing it would have required having a gunsmith mill a dovetail. This would have cost a significant fraction of the cost of the gun.

3) The gun was significantly under sprung. At first it exhibited vertical stringing and big firing pin drag marks on the casings. I discovered that Tanfoglio used the exact same weight recoil spring for all calibers from 9mm to 10mm. Switching to a heavier after market spring helped a little bit. My intention was to switch to a heavier mainspring, and I think somebody at the time was making an extended firing pin spring stop. But before I could do that....

4) After about a thousand rounds of quite reliable function, the gun catastrophically failed. The gun cracked through the hole for the safety, up through the rear left slide rail. A piece of the slide rail flew off and hit me in the face.

EAA quickly replaced the gun. I had my FFL holder friend Tommy The Gun Pimp sell it in an online auction and used the money to buy a Glock.

I still have the guitar though. It's great.

[busykngt]

Thanks guys; the last few postings have been particularly insightful / helpful. This pistol (& a couple others) is up for private sale by a widow who is selling off her late husband's firearms (my son's neighbor). By a study of his long guns too, I can't say he was a particularly savvy firearms investor. I'm to go look over the collection this Saturday before she takes the lot of them to a pawnshop owner who buys 'bulk estate' collections (where she'll be lucky to get ten cents on the dollar).

[john c]

I've had Tanfos, both large and small frame, for many years. For the money, they're good pistols. I particularly like the .45 ACP. The grip is much smaller than the CZ 97, for the same capacity. I haven't had a problem with my pistols, but admittedly they've never been high volume guns. I think my current pistols have front dovetailed sights. I bought mine used, so warranty has never been a concern. Parts seem to be readily available, and I lean on my armored buddies for all of my parts changing needs.

The only real downside is the lack of a decocker. This makes it a gamer gun, a niche which it fills nicely. The triggers can be made ridiculously light and smooth. The guns are accurate.

Basically, if you have the money, can help a widow and get a good deal, you should probably buy it. When the next panic happens, and the only ammo you can buy is 10mm or .38 super, you can swap the upper and keep shooting.


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[busykngt]

john c, that's along the lines I've come to. I'll go take a look at it - along with the other guns she has. If it's one of the more current large frame models and has the slab style slide, I'll probably see if I can come to terms with her (I'm sure I'll do better than the pawnshop owner - but she may not recognize that until it's too late). It'll be the first non-1911 45ACP in my inventory.


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[busykngt]

Just a quick follow up; it wasn't to be... ya snooze, you loose. Went with my son to visit his widow neighbor lady (a real nice lady). She had already sold the EAA Witness. She seemed to think it was in 9mm but my son was equally convinced it was a .45 (she does shoot so not "foreign" to guns). But my son says he picked up & looked at it and is equally adamant it was a 45 - one or the other of them got it mixed up with her other pistols she has (or, had) for sale. It wasn't a huge collection but she had already sold off several pieces. She had an excellent condition Remington 7600 pump action chambered in 270 Win; if it had been chambered in 30.06, I probably would have bought it.


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[Gary1911A1]

I would consider it a blessing that it was already sold when you got there. If it had problems with the pistol you would of had difficulty resolving them.

[Leroy]

I have EAA Witness / Tanfoglio Stock II in 9 mm worked over by Jim Bodkin. The thing is like crack. You shoot it, you want to shoot it more and more, and you don't want to shoot anything else. It is a purely gaming gun and it is finicky like nothing else I've ever owned. That doesn't change the crack thing. No experience with 45 though.

What he said. I have 3 Stock 2 with DIY trigger jobs and Extreme parts. In my opinion the best DA/SA 9 mm pistol from a shooting performance perspective, but as a general gun they are pieces of shit. There will be a very high probability that it won't work. Hope you know a smith or are real good at diagnosing gun problems and not afraid to get out sandpaper and files.