Average time to draw and fire?

[Specv]

I continue to look over the forums for an answer to this question. What is an average time to draw and fire one round from concealment from seven yards? Also how do you classify the times? I ask because I run an average of 1.7 seconds from concealment with an open top holster and my HK VP9 with HD sights. I would like to know what others can do and how I can become faster.

[GJM]

1.7 is very solid, better than most American shooters. With work, you can be significantly faster. Practice this dry fire with descending par times.

There likely will be a difference between the time "warmed up" versus cold, and a difference between one shot draws versus shooting multi-shot strings. Lots of times that get thrown around on the web represent warmed up, one shot, best ever performance.

[Specv]

What I have done is run fifty rounds and averaged those times down. I vary between 1.47 and 1.9. I am just starting to keep track of the times and record them in excel. I have also setup a dry fire routine. I have been shooting IDPA for the last three years and also doing armed security work which needs me to requal. twice a year. I am faster then most of the people I work with and normally place within the top five of local matches. I also shoot the Maryland State IDPA and come in tenth out of 133. I am curious what the average times are for others and even the top guys.

[GJM]

What I have done is run fifty rounds and averaged those times down. I vary between 1.47 and 1.9. I am just starting to keep track of the times and record them in excel. I have also setup a dry fire routine. I have been shooting IDPA for the last three years and also doing armed security work which needs me to requal. twice a year. I am faster then most of the people I work with and normally place within the top five of local matches. I also shoot the Maryland State IDPA and come in tenth out of 133. I am curious what the average times are for others and even the top guys.

As I alluded to above, to get a meaningful answer, you need to specify:

shot from concealment or open

shot to what size target

what is the scoring system references hits outside the target zone

how many shot strings

warmed up or cold

at match or solo practice

done once or "X" times consecutively

Without these things being specified, the answers you get will be meaningless.

[Specv]

Gotcha.

Starting at seven yards, centered on target, hands by side draw and fire one round at an IDPA target. I use standard IDPA scoring. Concealment for me at this time is using a vest. I know I don't carry that way but it puts it on a even playing field. I use a Comp-Tac holster at the three o clock position.

Shot from concealment
IDPA target
IDPA scoring
50 rounds
cold
solo practice
I do this once a month

[Talionis]

If you can bring that average down to roughly 1 second, you won't be hurting. That time won't win any speed awards but is a good place to be, especially if you are working on other aspects of shooting too.

[LittleLebowski]

2-ish not warmed up from concealment. A few draws gets me to 2 flat and then 1.7-ish. This is running a G19 or G17 from a JM Custom AIWB or CCC Shaggy on a 3x5 card at 5 yards. What helped me the most (aside from taking classes and shooting with the late, great ToddG) was always using a small target and bringing a similar skilled buddy to critique like the FAST coin holder JV. Training buddies help a lot. I'd strongly recommend doing the Drills of the week (https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?47-Drills-of-the-Week) (DOTWs for short). No one will talk trash, everyone will be helpful and if you do them, you will get better.

[Luke]

Another good place to look would be the FAST thread we have going. Most people will put the shot to shot break down (like your supposed too) and you can see their shot times. Everyone shooting that drill is shooting from the same distance (7yards) at the same target (3x5 or the body) with 98% of the people shooting it from concealment.

My draw times on the FAST are ~1.80 from concealment (AIWB) and ~1.30 from no concealment to the index card.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I shoot a lot. My average draw from concealment is 1.3 - 1.7 Cold. My target is an IDPA -0 from 7-yards. When I shrink the target size down to a 3X5 I hover around the 2.0 second range. My mode of carry is AIWB when not wearing a uniform. My FAST averages between 5.2 - 5.8 Cold as well. All these sub-second draws from concealment claims while getting the necessary hits I'd have to witness for myself.

[Randy Harris]

Like someone mentioned earlier we need to quantify what we are actually asking. It is like asking "what do you bench? One rep max? Or what can you do 8 reps with? Those answers are very different.

How far a target and how big?

If it is an IDPA target -1 or -0 zone shot at 3 yards? Maybe .75 to 1.0 from concealment.

Same size target (0 or -1 IDPA) at 7 yards? .85 to just over a second. But again that is accepting a -1 or a -0. Guaranteed -0 hit at 7 yards is probably 1.20 .

Index card 1 round at 7 yards? About 1.20 to 1.30 again from concealment.

Three rounds to the -0 at 5 yards is about 1.5 to 1.6.

A double tap at the index card at 7 yards is 1.6 to 1.8 .I say "AT" the card because those will be close enough to fit inside the card they just both might not be on it. I shoot that with 1 on and 1 just off the card quite a bit in the 1.6 to 1.8 range. A guaranteed pair on the card runs right at 2. And again all of this is from concealment.

I shot the 2x2x2 drill in Dave Spaulding's class with one on the card and one just barely off in 1.6 and when he asked me to do it again slower to see if I could get it if I slowed down I did it in 1.89 with one on the card and one cutting the edge of the card but of course I didn't get the coin because the 1st attempt is the only one that counts.

[vcdgrips]

"If you can bring that average down to roughly 1 second, you won't be hurting. That time won't win any speed awards but is a good place to be, especially if you are working on other aspects of shooting too."

T,
1 second , down 0 on a IDPA target at 7 yrds from concealment might not win any speed awards in your factory sponsored rarified air but out here in the real world that is extremely fast.

As GJM stated, 1.7 is very solid and could be pared down with practice I am sure.

FWIW

[JAD]

I am a poor to average shooter. I think this skill (sort of -- I prefer a smaller target, or a more distant one -- usually 2" at 7 or 8" at 15) is probably pretty important, and I drill it live and dry, every time; my times are always recorded in my training journal.

3:00 IWB under a polo, I expect consistent hits on the above targets a little above 2 seconds cold, and it generally floats down to 1.8 as I warm up. If I'm above 2.3 cold or can't get down below 1.9 I work on technique; if it follows the pattern I move on to other things.

[GJM]

some benchmarks from PT website for draw to 3x5 from open vest concealment:

Dave Sevigny's 3.56 FAST record:

Draw: 1.36 seconds
Split (3×5 card): 0.26 seconds
Reload: 1.40 seconds
Split (8″ circle): 0.20 seconds
Split (8″ circle): 0.16 seconds
Split (8″ circle): 0.18 seconds



Vogel's best FAST run for the coin:

4.39 (1.73, .41 / 1.60 / .23, .20, .22)

[eb07]

For me, carrying appendix in a Galco stow and go. Using Hand loaded 38 special +P 158gr SWC rounds.

Hands at side, drawing from concealment. Shooting the 10x10x10 drill cut down for a snub to 5x5x5


https://i1.wp.com/hostthenpost.org/uploads/308afd8a0703d55dac0bb2d19cc042b9.jpg


https://i1.wp.com/hostthenpost.org/uploads/5358e9985b5b6b0e75fe592655f013d8.jpg


https://i0.wp.com/hostthenpost.org/uploads/c7d58d0362f1fbc042a5a57c0b5787b8.jpg


https://i0.wp.com/hostthenpost.org/uploads/429baa52428c9ff72777b31c89be851d.jpg


I do a lot of dry fire practice with snap caps.... especially after I had the hand and wrist surgery to get back to my proficiency level.

[voodoo_man]

Totally depends on what type of drills we are running...

If I am just doing one shot from draw A zone target at 7 yards, I can normally get right under 1 second consistently.

If we are doing man size target (FBI/LE coke bottle) and/or man size steel at 7 yards, I can usually get consistent hits in the mid-high chest area at around .8-.9.

Running any type of drill that requires multiple shots (farnam, fast, etc) that the first shot is a credit card I am right around 1.1-1.3 depending on gun and sights.

All the above are from AIWB concealed.

My duty holster, a 7TS and Glock 17, I average around a 1.3-1.5x depending on the drill.

[okie john]

I shoot a lot. My average draw from concealment is 1.3 - 1.7 Cold. My target is an IDPA -0 from 7-yards. When I shrink the target size down to a 3X5 I hover around the 2.0 second range. My mode of carry is AIWB when not wearing a uniform. My FAST averages between 5.2 - 5.8 Cold as well. All these sub-second draws from concealment claims while getting the necessary hits I'd have to witness for myself.

I think that a bigger point lies in the sentence, “I shoot a lot.” For discussion purposes, I’m guessing that this means weekly or more frequent training sessions. That matters because shooting is such a perishable skill. The fresher it is, the more likely you are to be able to execute it well on command. For example, I’ve spent some of my range time getting a rifle ready for hunting season, and my pistol work has suffered accordingly. Now that the long gun is dialed in, it’s time to start working on the pistol again.

So I feel like we have to consider perishablility as we calculate an average draw speed. If we average times for 50 draws made one after another, then we benefit from the fact that our last draws will be faster—perhaps significantly so—than our first draw. But in the real world, nobody ever says, “Now draw your pistol 50 times and let’s run the numbers.” It’s always, “Now draw your pistol.” So if the first draw should be weighted more heavily than those that follow, then maybe the average of 50 first draws taken over several months or years of training is a more meaningful number.

In a lot of ways, the art of gunfighting is the art of the worst-case scenario. So my best group, my fastest first-shot hit, the longest shot I have ever made, etc., do not accurately express my skill level. My worst group, my slowest draws, and the easy shots I screw up are a lot more important than performances that that start to border on Personal Best country.

As a result, I’ve started shooting the Drill of the Week without warm-ups or sighters, and when I shoot them for some reason, I include them as part of my final score. I shoot additional DoW runs to discover the differences between the first run and subsequent runs, and that shows me where I need to improve. As a result, I've noticed that my performance relative to other shooters who respond to given DoW is now much worse. A few weeks ago, I would have said that gtmtnbiker’s times and mine were about the same when I shoot a realistic pistol from concealment. But judging myself by this new standard, I’d have to say that I’m well behind him.

Of course the best way to game the “cold DoW” standard is to shoot often enough that I don’t get too cold, and that gets us back to the perishability issue.


Okie John

[Luke]

Totally depends on what type of drills we are running...

If I am just doing one shot from draw A zone target at 7 yards, I can normally get right under 1 second consistently.

If we are doing man size target (FBI/LE coke bottle) and/or man size steel at 7 yards, I can usually get consistent hits in the mid-high chest area at around .8-.9.

Running any type of drill that requires multiple shots (farnam, fast, etc) that the first shot is a credit card I am right around 1.1-1.3 depending on gun and sights.

All the above are from AIWB concealed.

My duty holster, a 7TS and Glock 17, I average around a 1.3-1.5x depending on the drill.

what are your fast times? That's a smokin time to first shot.

[John Hearne]

The other consideration is what is a theoretical maximum versus what can you reasonably maintain. I've pushed my time down to 1.1 to 1.2 with a ton of dry practice, like daily for 15-30 minutes and weekly range sessions. The problem was that as soon as the daily work stopped the times worked their way back up. In my mind it was reachable but not sustainable for me and my lifestyle.

On an 8" target at 7 yards from concealment, 1.5 seconds is where I like to be but 1.7 cold is pretty acceptable in my book.

[JCS]

It seems 1.5 is the standard. At least that's the tueller drill. The avg man can cover 15 feet in 1.5 seconds? I think that's what it is.

That said my cold draw is around 2 seconds. I see people posting .70 draws from concealment and that's incredible. But the bad guy won't let me warm up. My goal is to work towards a 1 second draw. Of course it's going to take thousands of reps but I need a goal to work towards. Ben Stoeger claims he doesn't see much difference in times between aiwb from concealment and open carry from the hip.

My biggest issue is acquiring the sights quickly. That's what seems to set apart the really quick people from the average people. I waste at least a half second trying to pick up my sights.


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[Randy Harris]

It seems 1.5 is the standard. At least that's the tueller drill. The avg man can cover 15 feet in 1.5 seconds? I think that's what it is.

That said my cold draw is around 2 seconds. I see people posting .70 draws from concealment and that's incredible. But the bad guy won't let me warm up. My goal is to work towards a 1 second draw. Of course it's going to take thousands of reps but I need a goal to work towards. Ben Stoeger claims he doesn't see much difference in times between aiwb from concealment and open carry from the hip.

My biggest issue is acquiring the sights quickly. That's what seems to set apart the really quick people from the average people. I waste at least a half second trying to pick up my sights.


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With regards to warm up...I obviously can't speak for everyone , but I do know who some of the posters in this thread are either personally or by reputation. Some folks have been serious shooters/gun handlers/gun carriers for many years. Their cold times might legitimately be what a "warmed up" time is for others. Some folks out there literally do dry fire and draw work every day...as such they are always warmed up when compared to those who handle less frequently.

[voodoo_man]

what are your fast times? That's a smokin time to first shot.

Fastest I've ever put down was a .81 from concealment aiwb. That was a one off, honestly. I can do .98-ish without much warmup on a mansize target.

[gtmtnbiker98]

Fastest I've ever put down was a .81 from concealment aiwb. That was a one off, honestly. I can do .98-ish without much warmup on a mansize target.If you open the target area up, sure we can all run fast. But for me, my hits must be acceptable and at 7 yards, it's an 8" circle. When I stop seeing the sights, I can get as fast as 1.1-1.3 but I cannot ever recall breaking the 1 second barrier.

I mandate the seeing of the front sight prior to breaking my shots.

[Luke]

Fastest I've ever put down was a .81 from concealment aiwb. That was a one off, honestly. I can do .98-ish without much warmup on a mansize target.

I was asking about draw times to the 3x5 in the FAST test. The 1.1- 1.3 to the credit card you mentioned seems insanely fast, that's why I was curious to see your total FAST time.

[JohnO]

Here is a nice video of Mike Pannone getting after it at 10 yards.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZmaLWn8YZU

Another with more speed. Looking very smooth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vvf0Y1xgNsY

[voodoo_man]

I was asking about draw times to the 3x5 in the FAST test. The 1.1- 1.3 to the credit card you mentioned seems insanely fast, that's why I was curious to see your total FAST time.

Must have missed that in the OP.

I find the FAST has a few flaws and the overall time is measured by a few variables which are very subjective - clothing, equipment, gun position, etc.

I think the last time I ran the fast drill was at the greenops class, granted it was cold, raining and I reloaded from concealment as well, I was right under 6 seconds? or was it right at 6.1x? or something? I don't remember exactly.

I have hit sub 6 seconds in my duty rig a few times, have not done it recently though.

[GJM]

Lots of folks conflate what they have done with their on demand ability. I remember my peak performances almost forever, and can forget screw ups immediately.

At USPSA matches, I see really good shooters in the 1.3 range for the draw. Of course, they are balancing the upside of a fast draw with the downside of shooting a string with a bad draw.

[Odin Bravo One]

The one time draw speed mattered in life, I had my entire life to get it done.

My draw time that put me on the "FAST Wall of Fame" was 1.97 seconds, and my ultimate run was a 4.81.

Focusing on solid fundamentals and practice will get done what you want/need to get done whether it be for SD or Competition. Worrying over minutia has you chasing but one very insignificant goal in a situation where bigger and better concerns await. But that's just me.

[Randy Harris]

Must have missed that in the OP.

I find the FAST has a few flaws and the overall time is measured by a few variables which are very subjective - clothing, equipment, gun position, etc.

I think the last time I ran the fast drill was at the greenops class, granted it was cold, raining and I reloaded from concealment as well, I was right under 6 seconds? or was it right at 6.1x? or something? I don't remember exactly.

I have hit sub 6 seconds in my duty rig a few times, have not done it recently though.

I think what he was wanting to know is was what your draw to first shot time was on the FAST drill....

[voodoo_man]

I think he was wanting to know is was what your draw to first shot time was on the FAST drill.

I see that's what's this is going to now, but that's not what was in the OP...

Either way, having goals and personal standards that change over time and become more aggressively difficult is the best method for allowing yourself to progress.

[Luke]

OP: what's your draw time?

General consensus: depends on target and mode of carry

Voodoo: says A zone 7 yard draws are under 1.0 seconds. Says 7 yard draws to FBI coke bottle (bigger than A) is .8-.9. Says drills with multiple strings including shots to a credit card (smaller than 3x5) is 1.1-1.3.

Me: voodoo seems to have lots of data on his training, so I ask what his draw time was too a 3x5 (FAST) because of his draw to a credit card is 1.1-1.3, that's smokin, and I'd be interested to know his total time.

Voodoo: Luke is drifting from the OP.

[voodoo_man]

OP: what's your draw time?

General consensus: depends on target and mode of carry

Voodoo: says A zone 7 yard draws are under 1.0 seconds. Says 7 yard draws to FBI coke bottle (bigger than A) is .8-.9. Says drills with multiple strings including shots to a credit card (smaller than 3x5) is 1.1-1.3.

Me: voodoo seems to have lots of data on his training, so I ask what his draw time was too a 3x5 (FAST) because of his draw to a credit card is 1.1-1.3, that's smokin, and I'd be interested to know his total time.

Voodoo: Luke is drifting from the OP.

https://m.popkey.co/5e278e/kdKdw.gif

[HopetonBrown]

I continue to look over the forums for an answer to this question. What is an average time to draw and fire one round from concealment from seven yards? Also how do you classify the times? I ask because I run an average of 1.7 seconds from concealment with an open top holster and my HK VP9 with HD sights. I would like to know what others can do and how I can become faster.

I think a 1.5 second concealed draw to a -0/A Zone at 7 yards or 2 seconds onto a 3x5 card at 7 yards concealed is a good number for regular folk to aspire to.

[JCS]

With regards to warm up...I obviously can't speak for everyone , but I do know who some of the posters in this thread are either personally or by reputation. Some folks have been serious shooters/gun handlers/gun carriers for many years. Their cold times might legitimately be what a "warmed up" time is for others. Some folks out there literally do dry fire and draw work every day...as such they are always warmed up when compared to those who handle less frequently.

My post was not directed at anyone on here. I hope it wasn't taken that way. What you wrote makes sense and I've never thought of it that way.


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[Randy Harris]

No worries . I was just pointing out that if someone does dry work 7 days a week and they get into something then the last time they handled was 24 hours at the most. If they do 10 to 20 draws from concealment each morning before they leave the house they are probably walking around every day "warmed up" when compared to the guy who has not shot in 2 months and who never does any dry work at all....And there are far more of the "no dry work guys" than the more...dedicated. But that is just a matter of lifestyle and priorities.

Some guys make the time to go bowling every Tuesday, some guys make the time to lift and run every day, and some make the time to do dry work. Just a matter of discipline. Nothing inherently wrong with any of them. But the guy who bowls once every blue moon is gonna roll a 100 and the guy who does dry work semi annually is gonna be a lot slower than the guy who hits it every day...and the guy who never lifts is not going to be as big and strong as the gym rat who lifts all the time. The more time invested the better results and I know some here are heavily invested.

[Talionis]

"If you can bring that average down to roughly 1 second, you won't be hurting. That time won't win any speed awards but is a good place to be, especially if you are working on other aspects of shooting too."

T,
1 second , down 0 on a IDPA target at 7 yrds from concealment might not win any speed awards in your factory sponsored rarified air but out here in the real world that is extremely fast.

As GJM stated, 1.7 is very solid and could be pared down with practice I am sure.

FWIW

No offense intended. And there's no rarified air here. I get to shoot some cool guns that most civilians don't, but if I want to get better, that's all on me. In reading this thread, a lot of people are too accepting of slow draw times. That's particularly strange to me since I am of the opinion that a fast draw is much more important from a self-defense point of view than a competition point of view. I can get by with a pretty slow draw in competition for the most part, but I am a lot more concerned with the ability to draw to a rapid hit when it comes to defensive skills.

Look. A 1 second draw isn't that hard to get on a big target like an 8" circle at 7 yards. I can get most guys who do that in 2 seconds down to well under 1 second in the course of a two hour lesson. In my experience, once you can do it in that time, consistency just takes a bit more work. If people are fine with a 1.5 second draw to a big easy target like an 8" target at 7 yards, rock on. But if you don't want to settle for mediocrity it's not that much effort to get well under that.

[mc1911]

Talionis, I'm curious as to some consistent aspects of the presentation process that you are able to help shooters tighten up. I'm sure there are some things unique to individuals, but I assume that there is some stuff that tends to be common weak spots in gaining that .5 second.

[Talionis]

Talionis, I'm curious as to some consistent aspects of the presentation process that you are able to help shooters tighten up. I'm sure there are some things unique to individuals, but I assume that there is some stuff that tends to be common weak spots in gaining that .5 second.

There are usually a lot of efficiency problems with people who have never seen their draw (I like to grab video and show them how much excess movement they are making), but the main areas I see people losing time are a) lack of urgency and b) over aiming for the difficulty of the target.

[DacoRoman]

I think that this is a solid approach to building up speed, but still maintaining good form, instead of trying to go too fast too soon and creating bad mechanics.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckhJTXywKcQ

[Nephrology]

For more data, here are some times from last weekend. I consider myself to be a slightly above average shooter. The drill is one that I improvised; time being time from draw to first hit on a 2" circle @5yd, 2nd number being # of mikes before the hit that was recorded (i.e. I shot at each dot until I got a hit, only recorded the time to the hit, not to the misses. Shot with an IDPA legal Kydex holster, no concealment, using the 4 guns as per below. The scores are also listed in order - you can see that by he time I got down to the Gen 3 Glock 19 I was nice and warmed up.

G3G17: 1.79 0M; 1.73 0M; 1.94 1M; 1.93 2M; 2.04 1M; 1.96 1M [Avg:1.90 Sec, 0.8M
G4G17: 1.83 0M; 1.91 0M; 1.94 2M; 1.78 1M; 1.60 1M; 1.83 3M Avg:1.815 Sec, 1.16M
G4G19: 1.77 1M; 1.70 0M; 1.86 0M; 1.83 0M; 1.65 0m; 1.66 1M Avg:1.745 Sec, 0.3M
G3G19: 1.80 0M; 1.76 0M; 1.77 1m; 1.54 1m; 1.54 0m; 1.57 5M Avg:1.66 Sec, 1.16M

[Sterling Archer]

Warmed up
IDPA target
7 yards
1 shot COM
3 o'clock kydex holster
No concealment
1.20

I'm working to get it under 1.00.

[GJM]

By chance, Darryl ran me on three open carry draws in a row with the CZ Shadow, when we were shooting together this winter:

https://youtu.be/JNnk5jt1mXs

[vcdgrips]

We have a lot of apple to oranges going on in this thread vis a vis concealed v. non concealed, cold v. on demand etc. I understood the OP to say: 8 inch circle ( -0 on the IDPA target), from concealment (vest) @ 1.70 at 7 yrds.

Respectfully, seeing folks break 1.0 without concealment from open top kydex is what it is relative to the inital inquiry.

I would be very interested in seeing video from you all who are at 1.20 and less under the conditions the OP mentioned initially and what I have mentioned above.
Type of concealment garment, weapon, cold v. warm etc.
Thanks in advance,

[GJM]

We have a lot of apple to oranges going on in this thread vis a vis concealed v. non concealed, cold v. on demand etc. I understood the OP to say: 8 inch circle ( -0 on the IDPA target), from concealment (vest) @ 1.70 at 7 yrds.

Respectfully, seeing folks break 1.0 without concealment from open top kydex is what it is relative to the inital inquiry.

I would be very interested in seeing video from you all who are at 1.20 and less under the conditions the OP mentioned initially and what I have mentioned above.
Type of concealment garment, weapon, cold v. warm etc.
Thanks in advance,

David, Gabe's journal would be a great place to look. As I recall, his PR is a .60 something to the 3x5 from his regular, concealed AIWB with the 34, but he isn't calling that on demand doable.

It isn't in Gabe's territory, but here is a G26 2.18 clean Bill with a sub 1.20 draw from AIWB. I can go faster when I am not shooting multi shot drills.

https://youtu.be/gSPPdK8bVmg

[YVK]

Stop gaming your support hand position.

That T-shirt, did you have it tailored shorter? I think that if you just took a deep breath in at a buzzer, it would lift up enough to clear that gun just fine.

[Mr_White]

You guys are all quite right that equipment, context/environment, task complexity, on-demand/cold vs. PR all play into the numbers generated. Specifying that stuff helps for clarity's sake but I do think it mostly just ends up being different points in a person's 'range of performance.'

For me, from AIWB (Keeper) concealed under a polo or t-shirt, at 7 yards:

To an 8" circle or USPSA lower A-zone, I'm about .7x to 1.0x, depending on how much I'm pushing or "guaranteeing", and what kind of context - solo practice vs. a stress situation like a match or class demo. I can go a little faster than that - PR is 0.62 with an A-zone hit, which frankly was a semi-lucky shot and I could just as easily have missed. That is pretty much as fast as I can move. Three days ago I did a class demo of a one-shot draw, but the target was a ~5x7" oval, which is a little over half the size of a USPSA lower A-zone, and hit in 0.81.

To a 3x5 card, I'm about .95 to 1.25, dependent on the same pushing and contextual stuff as above. PR is 0.75 IIRC, during solo practice where I had just a magical perfect cluster of reps where I hit the 3x5 in that kind of time. Neither on-demand nor irrelevant IMHO.

Multiple shots, multiple strings/complex courses of fire, stress/pressure, all slow it down.

I have So Many Videos showing my draw, I almost wouldn't even know where to start. Maybe I'll try to dig up a couple of examples after I get home.

Fastest I ever got out of a concealed strong side IWB rig was 0.99 (to an 8" circle), and generally I was around 1.20. That was a long time ago though.

From everything I've seen, doing this myself and working with other people on it, 1.5 seconds to an A-zone hit at 7 yards from a concealed strong side holster is more than average or mediocre performance. Many people have to work pretty hard to get there - I certainly did.

[Talionis]

We have a lot of apple to oranges going on in this thread vis a vis concealed v. non concealed, cold v. on demand etc. I understood the OP to say: 8 inch circle ( -0 on the IDPA target), from concealment (vest) @ 1.70 at 7 yrds.

Respectfully, seeing folks break 1.0 without concealment from open top kydex is what it is relative to the inital inquiry.

I would be very interested in seeing video from you all who are at 1.20 and less under the conditions the OP mentioned initially and what I have mentioned above.
Type of concealment garment, weapon, cold v. warm etc.
Thanks in advance,

I wasn't talking open carry OWB when I mentioned 1s as a reasonable baseline for an 8" circle at 7 yards. Gamer gear would be faster. I don't really find AIWB slower than my gamer setup, the chances of a fouled draw are just higher than from from the game belt.

I'll try to take some video of a couple concealed draws next time I'm at the range, but it is both doable and repeatable.

[Mr_White]

I don't really find AIWB slower than my gamer setup, the chances of a fouled draw are just higher than from from the game belt.

That's exactly right from what I've seen. Concealed AIWB is pretty equivalent to an unconcealed strong side OWB rig timewise, but with a higher disaster factor.

[eb07]

We have a lot of apple to oranges going on in this thread vis a vis concealed v. non concealed, cold v. on demand etc. I understood the OP to say: 8 inch circle ( -0 on the IDPA target), from concealment (vest) @ 1.70 at 7 yrds.

Respectfully, seeing folks break 1.0 without concealment from open top kydex is what it is relative to the inital inquiry.

I would be very interested in seeing video from you all who are at 1.20 and less under the conditions the OP mentioned initially and what I have mentioned above.
Type of concealment garment, weapon, cold v. warm etc.
Thanks in advance,


My times and photos in post 14 were done as I carry. In a galco stow and go aiwb under a tshirt or button down. That day was button down:


https://i1.wp.com/s10.postimg.org/rmqrdhx7d/IMG_3521.jpg?zoom=2

All at 5 yards at a 10" bull

I don't cheat myself when practicing with my ccw

First photo was cold. The rest were in order so warm I guess.

[Mr_White]

I would be very interested in seeing video from you all

Here you go! I grabbed a few draws from different environments and conditions and tried to keep it pretty short.

First draw is best-of-many-repetitions where I was pushing solely for fastest attempt at firing a shot from near full extension, hit not required. This one happened to be an A, but the point was maximum physical speed.

Second draw is warmed up, and with aiming.

Third draw is warmed up and with aiming, but a three shot string and I think the draw was about .9x.

Fourth draw is warmed up and with aiming, but a six shot string and I think the draw was about .8x.

Fifth draw is from a stage in the state championship a couple weeks ago. Best I can tell with a clunky video editor is that it was about .80. I NEVER have that fast a draw in USPSA, from a combination of more stressful environment, and only very rarely getting to do a facing forward, hands down start, draw to a big close easy target. There's almost always an incorporated lean, movement, uprange start, hands in some oddball position, distant target or one with hardcover or no-shoot, or something else to make it not a simple straightforward draw.

The sixth draw is much more typical of the draw on a USPSA stage, in my short USPSA experience. Clunky video editor makes it look like a time of 1.63.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXuuGLize6o

[scw2]

Gabe, is the increased time for the multiple shots due to having to get a better grip on the gun to manage the recoil?

[Clobbersaurus]

Concealed times:

FAST: 1.8. - 2.0
Bill: 1.5 - 1.7
Best concealed (appendix) draw with an audiance: 1.28 - this was at the Langdon course during a close speed drill.

[BCL]

Gabe, is the increased time for the multiple shots due to having to get a better grip on the gun to manage the recoil?

Not Gabe, but yes. With a single shot, you only have to guarantee enough grip to hold onto the gun; with multiple shots in a string, you need to be able to control recoil effectively as well.

[Mr_White]

That's definitely true, but I think there is also a mental component to the time difference.

[hiro]

Ok, I'm gonna wade in way out of my depth:

From a "defensive" point of view could it be said that we're building training scars by working to speed of first shot at the price of controlled follow up shots?

Or can the two practices be kept separate and applied as required?

[Mr_White]

I don't think we're building training scars, this observable difference is just the way it works when you have a person perform their one draw under different conditions.

[Appalachained]

I've been practicing the draw a lot lately. The way I practice is shooting at the plates on a plate rack at 10 yards. I need to practice more with my EDC holster. With an OWB holster at 3:00 and my EDC G19 I average about 1.35-1.40. I have done it as fast as 1.21 after warming up.
I going to try it next week with my EDC holster (IWB@ 4:00) at 7 yards and see what I get.

[Appalachained]

I've been practicing the draw a lot lately. The way I practice is shooting at the plates on a plate rack at 10 yards. I need to practice more with my EDC holster. With an OWB holster at 3:00 and my EDC G19 I average about 1.35-1.40. I have done it as fast as 1.21 after warming up. I have never practiced dry fire. I need to do that.
I going to try it ( live fire) next week with my EDC holster (IWB@ 4:00) at 7 yards and see what I get.

[Randy Harris]

Ok, I'm gonna wade in way out of my depth:

From a "defensive" point of view could it be said that we're building training scars by working to speed of first shot at the price of controlled follow up shots?

Or can the two practices be kept separate and applied as required?

Faster is faster like stronger is stronger. If you can speed up your draw to first shot "1 shot strings" then your draw to "multi shot strings" will benefit too....

[Mr_White]

Faster is faster like stronger is stronger. If you can speed up your draw to first shot "1 shot strings" then your draw to "multi shot strings" will benefit too....

Exactly!

[That Guy]

- IPSC Metric target, top part of the body A-zone (above the tip of the "A")
- Strong side IWB, 20° cant
- Double action pistol
- 7 meters

My average draw time is about 1.85s +- 0.15s. About. Lately I've been sucking badly at practice so who knows - probably shoot a squirrel out of a tree the next time I try this... :P

I do try to do a few (10 is my minimum, with half one-handed and half free style) draws every morning, but my problem is that I do not trust myself when under-caffeinated and not fully awake - so I only draw to a sight picture, I do not touch the trigger. The plan is to do more dry fire with trigger manipulation included once I get back home in the evenings. The plan never works. One of these days I'll come up with a better plan... :P

[Hambo]

I did some dry runs this week to test it out. Concealment garment was what I wear daily to actually conceal guns: an untucked shirt long enough to really cover them in daily activity.

Timer at 1.5, it was easy to draw/dry fire either my 92F IWB or the J frame AIWB. Set at 1.2 I could still make it with the J, probably not with the Beretta.

I don't have timer data, but in a class Tom Givens watched me draw-fire with the 92 OWB under concealment, and I had to be at 1.2-1.3 to make the number of shots. There is a difference between my OWB and IWB times though.

[Specv]

I really appreciate everyone taking an interest in this. The reason I did the fifty rounds in a row was to start some sort of data to work off of. I have found that I can be as fast as 1.47 seconds but I was trying to see what the average is for everyone not so much the best time. I believe everyone will have that day when the gates open and you can fly. I am looking more for the mixed result of a good day and bad. I am planning on shooting this at four month intervals to see progress.

[JAD]

Today in practice I tried a larger target than usual. I used the 'A' zone of a riposte-2 target, which is roughly common in area with an IDPA -0 I guess. My usual target for D1s at 7 is a 3x5 or 2" dot. I was running 1.4x, which is about 0.4 faster than my typical time for the smaller target. I Did use the larger area, and had one miss out of 5 (1.39). I did not predict that I would be able to make myself use the larger area and go faster.

[That Guy]

Lately I've been sucking badly at practice so who knows - probably shoot a squirrel out of a tree the next time I try this... :P

Well, Strangely enough no squirrels were shot in practice today. The results were not flattering, though...

Drill: Draw and shoot once.
Target used: IDPA (All out of IPSC targets...)
Distance: 7 meters
Gun: Walther P99
Holster: IWB
Cover garment: closed front shirt
Start position: The "high Merkel" non-confrontational ready stance ( :) )

I had serious trouble trying to get my time under 2s. Slowest was 2.47s - granted, I did have the hem of the shirt wrapped around my thumb during the whole draw... :p Fastest was 1.85s. Normally, my times were a tad over tow seconds. Accuracy was nowhere near what i'd call good, either, but surprisingly just about every shot was a -0 - that down zero ring is huge! (And then I did the same drill, but weapon-hand only. And that's when it really got ugly, time-wise...)

(I did later on recover a bit from this tour de suck I've been on. Did some D2's to 3" post-it notes with identical setup as above - and some of my first shots were approaching my draw times from above. Felt almost like myself shooting those. Perhaps there is some hope of recovery...)

[Stuffbreaker]

From what I've seen in classes and competition, the standards for a single shot to the A/-0 zone from concealment at 7 yards are:

Master: Sub 1.1 seconds
Expert: 1.1-1.4 seconds
Intermediate/SS: 1.4 - 2.0 seconds
Novice: 2.0+

My best draws to such a target are 0.95 from vested IDPA concealment, 1.06 from under a polo, and 0.75 unconcealed from open top kydex. My FAST first shots are typically sub 1.8, with an overall best of 4.50 (1.71 / .47 / 1.72 / .17 / .21 / .22). SSP MA

[Jay585]

Necropost, sorry.

Just got my first ever shot timer (AMG Lab) and been dry firing. Thanks for this thread, had no idea where I stood.


2-ish not warmed up from concealment. A few draws gets me to 2 flat and then 1.7-ish. This is running a G19 or G17 from a JM Custom AIWB or CCC Shaggy on a 3x5 card at 5 yards. What helped me the most (aside from taking classes and shooting with the late, great ToddG) was always using a small target and bringing a similar skilled buddy to critique like the FAST coin holder JV. Training buddies help a lot. I'd strongly recommend doing the Drills of the week (https://pistol-forum.com/forumdisplay.php?47-Drills-of-the-Week) (DOTWs for short). No one will talk trash, everyone will be helpful and if you do them, you will get better.

Having the exact same result. Fastest was 1.5 second. I haven't done much draw practice, maybe 500 reps. I don't want to ingrain bad habits. Any suggestions on working the draw + getting faster? Or should I just not practice until I've taken a class?

G19 MOS with Trijicon RM01 and X300U A
Phlster Floodlight
6 feet from extension to target (length of bedroom wall to closet wall). Target is a post-it note. 5/8 Circle with a 3/16" dot drawn on the post-it. I try to put the red dot on the 3/16" circle (that's a perfect shot) if I hit the 5/8" circle it's decent and the post it is an "ungh". Off the post it is a "fuck".
I do all this from concealment under a t-shirt.

[Dismas316]

I broke sub 1 second this weekend but it was my competition rig and not concealed. Was .93 @ 10 yards. I can dry fire at .6 - .7 fairly consistently but I have noticed during actual completion, when I check, I am around 1.3 range. I seem to be a little to careful I think, need to relax and let it go like I do in practice.

I haven’t practiced nearly as much lately from aiwb but dry fire is just under 1 second, live fire I typically am 1.2 - 1.3 when focused on it. Best has been 1.12 again at 10 yards is typically the distance I shoot if practicing my draw. But as I said, haven’t worked much with my edc set up which I need to, been focused on my competition set up.

Dry fire really works here but one thing that immediately helped me speed up was to have the target literally just out of reach of my arms extended and work pure speed. All I focused on was hearing the beep and going as fast as I can while still in control. Not worried about target focus at first but just getting the feel of going very fast. Within 10 draws I lowered my times by easily 4 to 5 hundredths of a second. Once you feel it, it becomes easier to drop your times. Still need to get sub 1 consistant but just a few month ago I couldn’t get lower that 1.4 at all, now that seems slow.

[GuanoLoco]

Try the Gabe White Standards - Gabe lines out the target times and breaks them into bands.

[ASH556]

30 reps @ 7yds to USPSA A-zone yesterday. Beretta 92A1 from JM OWB holster (no concealment). By prepping the trigger I can get pretty close to 1 sec, but at this point my "C" hits go up. Based on this, average draw to A (guaranteed hit) is 1.3

https://i.imgur.com/XCOR9nxl.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/SvsVGaVl.jpg

[GuanoLoco]

Try the Gabe White Standards - Gabe lines out the target times and breaks them into bands.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22600-Gabe-White-Standards&p=511721&viewfull=1#post511721

Draw from Concealment (this includes 0.25s bonus for concealment) to the A-Zone, with an expectation that additional shots with 'fast' splits will follow to the A-Zone - meaning, this isn't a 1-shot speed draw test. There is also an expectation of being able to repeat this on demand for additional tests, so this isn't a 'Personal Best' type of test. Keep in mind that I am pulling just the draw piece out of the G.W.S., there is more to each of the 4 tests.

Turbo Pin: 1.25s, .20s Split

Light Pin: 1.50s, .25s Split

Dark Pin: 1.75s, .40s Split

I can hit Light Pin times with great consistency when warm, often when cold, and Turbo pins some of the time when warm.

Gabe often points out that Dark Pin level is a reasonable level of proficiency for defending yourself.
His Turbo Pin times were based on the performance of top shooters for well-known drills.

Paging Mr_White

[Mr_White]

Necropost, sorry.

Just got my first ever shot timer (AMG Lab) and been dry firing. Thanks for this thread, had no idea where I stood.



Having the exact same result. Fastest was 1.5 second. I haven't done much draw practice, maybe 500 reps. I don't want to ingrain bad habits. Any suggestions on working the draw + getting faster? Or should I just not practice until I've taken a class?

G19 MOS with Trijicon RM01 and X300U A
Phlster Floodlight
6 feet from extension to target (length of bedroom wall to closet wall). Target is a post-it note. 5/8 Circle with a 3/16" dot drawn on the post-it. I try to put the red dot on the 3/16" circle (that's a perfect shot) if I hit the 5/8" circle it's decent and the post it is an "ungh". Off the post it is a "fuck".
I do all this from concealment under a t-shirt.

It would be a great idea if you can get a basic, quality draw technique down before grinding it in with a lot of reps. Getting training first is a good idea. You may be able to research/watch tutorials and not do too badly. I'd caution that a significant portion of quality draw instruction is in managing holster work safely. There are some not-obvious safety issues that can arise and have to be managed when working with a holster. That's where quality in-person instruction really comes in.

Once you are satisfied that you have a safe, reasonably efficient draw to work with, there is a ton you can practice. Here's a drill to work the draw, though it isn't going to teach you how to draw in the first place: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35589-Week-312-200-Draws

Good luck and be safe!

[Medusa]

this is my concern - I am trying to do some dry fire including draws, but i don't have any recent training on any of it, so i worry about reinforcing the wrong thing.


It would be a great idea if you can get a basic, quality draw technique down before grinding it in with a lot of reps. Getting training first is a good idea. You may be able to research/watch tutorials and not do too badly. I'd caution that a significant portion of quality draw instruction is in managing holster work safely. There are some not-obvious safety issues that can arise and have to be managed when working with a holster. That's where quality in-person instruction really comes in.

Once you are satisfied that you have a safe, reasonably efficient draw to work with, there is a ton you can practice. Here's a drill to work the draw, though it isn't going to teach you how to draw in the first place: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?35589-Week-312-200-Draws

Good luck and be safe!

[Mr_White]

this is my concern - I am trying to do some dry fire including draws, but i don't have any recent training on any of it, so i worry about reinforcing the wrong thing.

I felt a little bad with my last post, because I know it doesn't contain the answers about HOW to draw. I imagine there are some great tutorials out there - I just don't know any off the top of my head to reference. I'd really hate to give somebody incomplete draw instruction and then have something go wrong. It's big enough that a post alone will NOT cover it all. Drawing and holstering is not very complicated; however, there are still ways that a person might go really wrong and I'm certain that they are not obvious to everyone.

[That Guy]

There are some not-obvious safety issues that can arise and have to be managed when working with a holster.

Any chance you could go over what some of those might be?

(Asking as someone who does not have good access to quality training...)