Seeing and tracking your sights, calling your shots

[scw2]

I've noticed a lot of the better shooters here mention is the ability to

call your shot by seeing your sight picture as the shot breaks
tracking your sight through the arc of recoil and shoot or prep the shot as it is settling back on target


In live fire at the range and in competition, I've had both happen seemingly at random. Yesterday, I was doing some recoil testing, and simply shooting into a piece of paper at 5 yards, and noticed when I focused on just looking at the sight I could track it each and every shot. I never once lost the sight during the whole process, from seeing it lift to seeing it settle, but for some reason don't recall the shot picture as the shot broke.

Unfortunately, it didn't really happen during the rest of my drills, and shot calling that did happen often was more often due to feeling a flinch than seeing the sights. Normally I think I shoot by holding visual focus where the front sight is, so I only see the end of the sight settling back down into that spot and start to prep/shoot then. I don't normally see the sights lift.

So my question is what am I doing wrong? Is there something I can do to get the shot calling and sight tracking every time? I'd be happy to take a step back to take two steps forward, but feel like it's critical for higher level shooting. Based on shooting into blank paper I know I have the ability to see the sights through the whole process, so should be able to do that plus call my shots every time and on demand, but don't know how to make that jump. Your help would be appreciated.

Edit to add: If there is an existing thread to point me to it as well it would be appreciated, but I didn't see anything when I searched earlier

[okie john]

I've found this book to be very helpful.

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Shooting-Fundamentals-Brian-Enos/dp/0962692506?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0


Okie John

[BJXDS]

If you have not already seen this, it may help as well:

DotW: Tracking Your Sights
http://pistol-training.com/archives/88

DotW: Tracking Your Sights II
http://pistol-training.com/archives/94

[RJ]

Gabe had me stand down range and fire six shots as fast as I could see the sights the entire time.

No target, just watching the sights rise and fall. He had me do it a couple times.

I felt a bit better about watching the sights after that (not, I hasten to add, that I was any better at it. I just realized more that I needed to watch the sights. )

[Luke]

I'm just now starting to get it working for me. The biggest thing that has helped me is calling shots in dry fire, and not just slow fire "ok there's an A, there's another A..." But running through some targets fast and making it a point to call your shots, fast enough to throw some bad shots, and be processing the sights and trigger fast enough to put another shot on it. I'm at a point where I can't shoot and tell you "I had 3 A's, 1 C in the lower left, and 1 B in the top of the head box.." But I can tell you "that target right there has 3 hits because that second shot was bad" lol. So it's progress, I'm conscious enough of my sights to realize that was bad, shoot another, but not quite there. And I still throw mikes and don't make up for them so this isn't an all the time thing.

I haven't read books or anything about it, but the guys who seem to do it are shooting at a high level, which leads me to believe shooting a good bit had something to do with it.

[60167]

I often call my shots by feel. I can feel a sub-optimal trigger press pretty much as I make it; and I know how the target it going to look downrange before the I'm even finished with the follow through.

[scw2]

Thanks Okie John and BJXDS, tose drills and book look promising, will give em a shot!

Rich, I basically did the first drill listed, which I guess is more or less what Gabe had you doing. Between being able to track the sights 100% and having been able to call shots randomly by sight before, I figured it wasn't a physical limitation on my part, but something I could learn sooner rather than later.

Luke, I agree that being ruthless in how you approach dry fire is critical. Being lazy on grip, or stance, or calling shots carries over into live fire, and I've been slowly improving how I approach practice. I know based on one of Gabe's posts he basically says call all your shots in dry fire, which I've been trying to do recently.

60167, I can definitely feel when I yank the trigger now too, but sometimes if I break a shot early or misaligned I don't see it (outshooting my sights), and when I yank it sometimes my grip has compensated enough that it's still a solid hit (or maybe my initial alignment was so bad the flinch put it on target). I am guessing the only way to consistently get the hits you need at a fast pace is to shoot as fast as you can see your sights and call your shots.

[45dotACP]

I have only recently got to the point where I can shoot a less than 5" group at 25 yards on demand, but I work shot calling at that distance. The benefit to having sucked really badly for a long time...you get to know what a "better" shot feels like as compared to what my previous skill level felt like...differences in grip tension, feeling whether or not I'm milking my grip, throwing a trigger press or anticipating a shot.

As far as sight tracking...I like to use a heavy, or service size 9mm with a metal frame and grip the ever loving crap out of it.

[GJM]

There are different approached to short calling. Robbie Leatham, for example, calls the shot before he presses the trigger.

Two shots to the same target, he watches the sight lift on shot one as a transition to shot two, but after the second shot is off to the next target without watching the sight lift.

[taadski]

There are different approached to short calling. Robbie Leatham, for example, calls the shot before he presses the trigger.

Two shots to the same target, he watches the sight lift on shot one as a transition to shot two, but after the second shot is off to the next target without watching the sight lift.

I think by Robbie's definition, in the context you're describing it, G, "watching the front sight lift" means watching it through its whole recoil arc. Meaning he describes seeing the whole arc on the first shot b/c the gun has to come back to the same place again. Then as the second shot breaks (and the sight starts to lift :)) he eye sprints to the next target to start the transition. I think the point being you don't have to watch the whole recoil arc in order to know where the bullet went; you only need that fraction of a fraction of a second when it starts to rise.

Some other well known trainers/gurus talk about it being a step by step process. First you learn to actually stop the gun on target with the sights aligned before EVERY shot. That's the first step. Then there's a level where see your sights and you can sometimes feel something wasn't quite right as the shot broke, but you may or may not know exactly where the bullet went; just that something was off. And then the apogee of the process is actually seeing problems as they happen and being able to accurately and repeatedly extrapolate where the bullets went based on the relationship you saw when the shot broke.

[GJM]

I think by Robbie's definition, in the context you're describing it, G, "watching the front sight lift" means watching it through its whole recoil arc. Meaning he describes seeing the whole arc on the first shot b/c the gun has to come back to the same place again. Then as the second shot breaks (and the sight starts to lift :)) he eye sprints to the next target to start the transition. I think the point being you don't have to watch the whole recoil arc in order to know where the bullet went; you only need that fraction of a fraction of a second when it starts to rise.

Some other well known trainers/gurus talk about it being a step by step process. First you learn to actually stop the gun on target with the sights aligned before EVERY shot. That's the first step. Then there's a level where see your sights and you can sometimes feel something wasn't quite right as the shot broke, but you may or may not know exactly where the bullet went; just that something was off. And then the apogee of the process is actually seeing problems as they happen and being able to accurately and repeatedly extrapolate where the bullets went based on the relationship you saw when the shot broke.

Kind of/sort of. This is what he says he does:

Robbie says that at the speed he needs to shoot to be competitive, he calls the shot based on his sight alignment before he presses the trigger. And, since he is Robbie, he has a perfect trigger press. The reason he tracks shot one of two, is only to facilitate the second shot on the same target.

That said, is hard to know exactly what is happening with each shooter, because it all happens so fast.

[taadski]

I guess my concern is that we're not all Robbie, and don't all have god-like trigger control that can be guaranteed 100% of the time. When people are learning the process, do you think a more traditional approach to the concept that takes into account seeing possible triggering errors would be more appropriate?

And agreed on the difficulty due to subjectivity. If we could all see what others are seeing, the process of getting better would certainly be more streamlined.

[GJM]

I guess my concern is that we're not all Robbie, and don't all have god-like trigger control that can be guaranteed 100% of the time. When people are learning the process, do you think a more traditional approach to the concept that takes into account seeing possible triggering errors would be more appropriate?

And agreed on the difficulty due to subjectivity. If we could all see what others are seeing, the process of getting better would certainly be more streamlined.

I am not making any recommendation. I just wanted to share Robbie's approach to add to the conversation and point out that folks can approach this differently, suggesting it is as much art as science.

[Surf]

Below is a drill that I am very successful at using in teaching others about sight tracking, which is only one good aspect of the drill. This drill is obviously predicated on the fact that the shooter understands the base fundamentals of shooting and can demonstrate them on target.

It is important that the shooter starts out slowly and watch the rise and fall of the sight. I like to use a physical target for this. It can also reinforce the importance of front sight focus. Often a new shooter will use target focus or look back and forth between the sights and target on each shot fired or while aligning the sights to get a sight picture. If you can get them to honestly stay on the front sight the entire drill, the results on target speak for themselves and is a valuable "see it to believe it" learning point.

Once you get the shooter to genuinely trust the front sight throughout the drill you can analyze the errors seen on target. Also by asking the shooter if they know what number shot(s) were specifically the shots outside of their group, the shooter learns to call their shots and understand what number shot was out the moment it broke. As mentioned by GJM a very good shooter will know the shot is good / bad at the moment the sear breaks, so follow ups can come quickly. I am by no means Robbie Leatham but if I am shooting strings of fire on multiple targets, I handle target transitions in the same manner. Refine the final sight picture prior to the shot, move my eyes at the time of ignition and use the lift of the recoil phase of the weapon to start the movement of the weapon to the next target.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7pmmrNmeNs

[scw2]

GJM, the clarification on how Rob uses sight tracking in that context is definitely helpful to keep in the back of my mind as I learn.

Surf, thanks for your video. I recall having seen it earlier this year, but at that point I was barely able to see sights lifting, going away, then returning at that point. Hopefully I can learn how to process more visually now. I think your drill fits in really well with the two drills shared earlier and will be a good bridge from simply tracking sights on a very large and forgiving target and jumping straight into transitions.

[taadski]

Charlie Perez (Cha-Lee) just made what I thought was a good thoughtful post in a similar thread over on Benos. He's a top 20 national limited GM if you're not familiar with him. Nice guy, good coach too. FWIW.


http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=234853&hl=

[Josh Runkle]

I've found this book to be very helpful.

http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Shooting-Fundamentals-Brian-Enos/dp/0962692506?ie=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0


Okie John

Yep.

[Alembic]

Charlie Perez (Cha-Lee) just made what I thought was a good thoughtful post in a similar thread over on Benos. He's a top 20 national limited GM if you're not familiar with him. Nice guy, good coach too. FWIW.


http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=234853&hl=

Very informative thread. Can anyone explain the "Mike, Delta, Charlie terms?

55-65% you have the guys who will start to be able to call a mike
65-75% can tell you some deltas
75-85% can tell you some charlies
85-95% can tell you the majority of charlies
Above that they can usually tell you were most every round landed

Thanks in advance for your insight.

[Mr_White]

I thought CHA-LEE had a pretty good post in there.


Very informative thread. Can anyone explain the "Mike, Delta, Charlie terms?

55-65% you have the guys who will start to be able to call a mike
65-75% can tell you some deltas
75-85% can tell you some charlies
85-95% can tell you the majority of charlies
Above that they can usually tell you were most every round landed

Thanks in advance for your insight.

On USPSA targets:

Alpha is an A-zone hit.
Bravo is a B-zone hit.
Charlie is a C-zone hit.
Delta is a D-zone hit.
Mike is a miss.

[Alembic]

Thanks for not beating me up, CHA-LEE did explain it, I just didn't pick up what he was puttin' down.

from his post - "usually A-C hits out to 15 yards and creeping into the C-D at 20 yards and D-M hits"

[Mr_White]

Thanks

YOUR WELCOME




Sorry, I was channeling The Internet for a moment. I meant to say, you're welcome! :)