SBR Lethality AK vs AR

[BES]

So I just read Doc's post on both the Russian rifles and 5.56 performance. Doc maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong in the following (or anyone else) If one was to choose between an 11.5 in AR or 11.5 in AK using commonly found ammo (no special purpose stuff) The AK would probably be a better way to go in this setup ?

[GJM]

I was keen on an AK SBR until .300 BLK.

[BES]

I was keen on an AK SBR until .300 BLK.

.300 BLK is awesome. That'd be my go to if it was easily attainable. Due to current global issues and political climate I'm sticking to guns that I can find ammo in every corner of the world for. My dilemma is with this SBR setup. From what I gathered in Doc's post, the SBR AK seems like it would be quite devastating. I know that velocity is reduced by about 300-400 compared to a full length AK. I can only assume that would improve lethality at close ranges based on what he said about it over penetrating. Idk though not my lane so I may be flat wrong.

[DocGKR]

For rifles with barrels 12-16", I'd stick with 5.56 mm AR's. For shorter barrels, I'd likely go with .300 BLK. The problems with AK's is finding good ammo--most common 7.62x39mm FMJ loads offer relatively poor terminal performance and with rare exceptions, the majority of JHP and JSP loads for AK's are not much better...

[BES]

For rifles with barrels 12-16", I'd stick with 5.56 mm AR's. For shorter barrels, I'd likely go with .300 BLK. The problems with AK's is finding good ammo--most common 7.62x39mm FMJ loads offer relatively poor terminal performance and with rare exceptions, the majority of JHP and JSP loads for AK's are not much better...

So just to clarify, you would take a 12in AR over a 12in AK? Assuming standard ammo for both (55gr/62gr for the AR)

[GJM]

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?140969-barnes-expansion-threshold


Sent from my iPad

[DocGKR]

Yes, I would take a 12-16" barrel 5.56 mm AR15 firing standard barrier blind duty ammo (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?4344-5-56-mm-Duty-Loads) over a 12" AK firing generic 5.45x39mm or 7.62x39mm ammo.

[That Guy]

The problems with AK's is finding good ammo--most common 7.62x39mm FMJ loads offer relatively poor terminal performance and with rare exceptions, the majority of JHP and JSP loads for AK's are not much better...

Sorry for a slight tangent, but this comes as a surprise to me. I was under the impression that FMJ rounds that had a lead core and copper jacket tumbled easily, and that it was only the Russian type steel core stuff that sucked? Likewise, I thought lead-and-copper JSP's were very effective, only the Russian type steel core stuff sucked (once again)? Would it be possible for you to go into more detail regarding what ammunition you've seen perform poorly, as it seems I have been misinformed on this topic? And thank you very much for this information!

[Chuck Haggard]

One thing I note from the shorter barreled ARs is the the high velocity/high fragmentation varmint type loads often slow down enough to be not so fragmenty, and display much better penetration in gelatin due to that factor.

[Odin Bravo One]

I've found SBRs in a variety of calibers to be plenty lethal.

It is, has been, and always will be the wizard, not the wand.

[BES]

I've found SBRs in a variety of calibers to be plenty lethal.

It is, has been, and always will be the wizard, not the wand.

Agreed, but if you can stack the odds in your favor, why not right?

[breakingtime91]

Agreed, but if you can stack the odds in your favor, why not right?

your a wizard harry! sorry nerd in me came out. But seriously, just get a 16 inch AR or 14.5 pinned and make do. Why do you need an sbr?

[Odin Bravo One]

Agreed, but if you can stack the odds in your favor, why not right?

The odds increase in your favor out of proficiency, not technology.

[BES]

your a wizard harry! sorry nerd in me came out. But seriously, just get a 16 inch AR or 14.5 pinned and make do. Why do you need an sbr?

I've got those. I really don't "need" an SBR. I like the idea of having an SBR AK with a side folder because it gets nice and compact and can go in a discrete backpack or store in places an AR wouldn't be able to. That said, I know I could build a shorty AR with a folding stock that could store just as easily. That's what brought me to my original question....The terminal ballistics of an SBR AR vs an SBR AK.

[Odin Bravo One]

Talk to Mike Day about terminal ballistics. He can tell you all about how it means dick when it comes to surviving gunshot wounds. Especially at close range.

Don't know who he is? GTS.

[SLG]

Talk to Mike Day about terminal ballistics. He can tell you all about how it means dick when it comes to surviving gunshot wounds. Especially at close range.

Don't know who he is? GTS.

I remember when that happpened. Amazing dude, I hope to shake his hand someday.

[Josh Runkle]

I've got those. I really don't "need" an SBR. I like the idea of having an SBR AK with a side folder because it gets nice and compact and can go in a discrete backpack or store in places an AR wouldn't be able to. That said, I know I could build a shorty AR with a folding stock that could store just as easily. That's what brought me to my original question....The terminal ballistics of an SBR AR vs an SBR AK.

If caliber is that important to you, then the question should really be about where to find a big enough "discreet" backpack.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160605/38d81ad524a5ab6086d92d8aa0943eb1.jpg

ETA: ...but, you know, with a t-1 and an offset light. Duh.

[steaknvodka]

Why do you need an sbr?

My lady friend also has that problem, she uses that n-word waaaay too much.

[Josh Runkle]

My wife got shot with this (7.75" AK)...

How's she doing now, Tom? (I know we've had threads on this, just asking for an update)

[LittleLebowski]

The odds increase in your favor out of proficiency, not technology.

Adding to my "Sean notes"

[BES]

Holy shitttt, I hope she recovered okay, someone was watching over her that day.

The Mike Day story I know of, insane, someone was watching over him too.

[Odin Bravo One]

5.56mm SBR - seems to work ok.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v690/SavageHunter/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshyhex5ro.jpeg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SavageHunter/media/Mobile%20Uploads/image_zpshyhex5ro.jpeg.html)

[breakingtime91]

My lady friend also has that problem, she uses that n-word waaaay too much.

Well hey tough guy.

[steaknvodka]

Well hey tough guy.

My comment probably failed to convey an attempt at light hearted humor. I think you were asking OP what role the SBR would play (good question to ask) and my lady friend wants to know why I'm oooogling over old revolvers. Not an apples to apples comparison, my bad.

[Brian T]

I have a Yugo PAP92 I bought when it was on sale with free shipping with the intention of SBRing it. Doc, I noted how you feel about 7.62x39 using generic FMJs, but what about my PAP 92 using Hornady SSTs of Uly 8M3?

I am not looking at .300BLK, not because it isnt a fine cartridge, but because I have found some handloading recipes for subsonic 7.62x39 and I got lucky on a huge lot of once and never fired brass casings for 7.62x39.

[DocGKR]

Why subsonic? It fills a very narrow niche that most folks don't deal with; why neuter an effective rifle cartridge and make it into a pistol load?

7.62x39 mm with an expanding bullet acts a lot like .30-30; how effective has .30-30 proven for hunting deer over the past century or so?

[Chuck Haggard]

From 16" guns that Hornady load is VERY effective.

[DocGKR]

Of note, the nebulous term "Lethality" is inappropriate and misleading and should ideally be banned from all discussions of terminal performance. What if an enemy combatant is hit with a projectile and immediately ceases hostile actions, but is not killed? If “Lethality” is the measured and defined metric, then the projectile has failed, because the opponent did not receive a lethal wound, although in actuality the projectile was extremely effective in stopping hostilities. Similarly, if an opponent is fatally shot, but manages to wipe out an entire squad of friendly personnel before succumbing to their wound, the projectile demonstrated 100% “Lethality”, but was utterly ineffective at stopping the enemy from continuing their attack. The phrase "Terminal Effectiveness" is far more accurate and appropriate than “Lethality”, as the death of an enemy combatant is then only one possible consequence instead of a stated intent and defined requirement for success.

[GJM]

In discussions of hunting cartridges and bullets, folks are pretty focused on killing power.