The pocket 9mm craze

[LittleLebowski]

We are seeing more and more of these come out. Keltecs, Sigs, Walther (my pick!), even Kimber.

What are your thoughts on this? Personally, I'm pretty happy with my Glock 19 in AWIB. But the Walther PPS 9mm is tempting. I've owned one once before and it ran well, just not with cheap range ammo.

[jslaker]

I've found myself fascinated with the PPS for a while as well. I just dig single stack 9mms for whatever reason.

But, like you, I'm happy enough with standard double stack compacts that I can't come close to justify spending $700 on a marginally smaller gun. I've yet to run into a situation short of a swimming pool where I couldn't conceal a USPc.

[joshs]

I would be really interested in a tiny (close to LCP size) 9mm that worked well. However, I'm not even sure if this is possible. Most of the single stack nines that are out are too big for me to comfortably pocket carry, and I don't see any advantage to carrying a lower capacity, slightly smaller gun in a belt holster.

[SecondsCount]

I have a couple Kahr 9mms that have treated me well. They don't get nearly enough trigger time as my everyday gun but I find them easy to shoot and reliable. One of them, an E9 which I purchased in 1998 and they don't make anymore, is like a Timex. It has been completely abused riding in a coat pocket, fanny pack, even on dirt bike trail rides and keeps on running. Not all Kahrs have that great a reputation but I am impressed with this one.

The Walther PPS intrigues me. A friend bought one for his wife recently (with her approval) and she really likes it. We took it to the range and shot about a dozen mags of reloads, WWB, and Hornady defense ammo without any issues. While not a huge test it was impressed me because I have seen a ton of issues with ladies and polymer or alloy framed guns even with the small Glocks and Sigs. The biggest issue is their grip which induce failures due to limp wristing. While this gal shoots fairly regularly, she typically uses a revolver, and her auto grip was not that great.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I've yet to find a "micro" capable of running, let alone with a 9mm. Some will attest to the Kahr PM9 reliability, but you'll also find just as many stating the opposite. For me, the smallest trustworthy pistol falls in line with the P2000SK and G26. The PPS is also promising, but the one I had experienced issues and was quickly sold.

[ToddG]

Reliability and durability issues aside, the micro-9 class of guns is primarily going to appeal to two groups:


LEOs looking for a major caliber BUG tht is flatter, easier to conceal, and easier to shoot than a snubbie revolver.
CCWers who, through circumstance or ignorance, believe that it's the biggest gun they can carry concealed.

[turbolag23]

i've handled a PPS and wasnt too fond of the grip or size, its almost too thin to hold comfortably and too tall since it had to stretch vertically to still get capacity. i did like the pm9 for size and it shot smooth. i dont pocket carry so i still think a g26 is a good all around practical gun and cheaper than the pm9.

[MTechnik]

My PPS, after a trip back to S&W for a fluff and buff, has been good with range ammo. It is fine with 95gr cor-bon dpx, just not with 124 gr dpx (they did NOT work well at all). I'll be trying some RA9T realllly soon.

The reasons I bought it:
-it may be that my blade-tech holster for my FNP9 doesn't fit my body well... but it is painful and hard to conceal.
-I have a 3 year old. Having him climb on you while shoe shopping will test ANY gun's concealability
-I work at a very fuzzy happy museum. 80% of my co-workers are women over 50 that have been dedicated to liberal arts and antiques their entire life.
-I'm their top technical person in IT. That means that sometimes I need to be the person to go look at the director of curatorial's PC, and that means crawling in some odd positions. Not good for normal concealability.
-it's a good backup gun to the FNP if I go to philly and want double-coverage.
-I couldn't find a weapon holster with a light that the FNP would fit well, so the FNP would keep the TLR-2 in the biosafe, and the PPS would be carried in a pocket or IWB holster.

My RCS Phantom with light for my PPS should fix 80% of those.

After some recent discussion here, I think about getting the Phantom, being able to CCW the FNP well at work. And moving to it exclusively. At which point I'll get a glock 17 or 19 or P30 and make it the new exclusive platform, once I can prove to myself I can conceal it well enough.

[David]

I'm sick of them, a few months ago Ruger made a big stink over "The next gun you HAD to have", "Ruger has done it again" and being a farily large fan of Ruger I was thinking it was going to be something like a 1911 or a new caliber, etc. Then they announce it's another mini-plastic 9mm pocket pistol.

Not everyone who carries has to do so in a deep conceal or discreet manner. Some of us carry OWB or open carry and it would be nice to see some new innovations or variants in full-scale handguns. In the end I guess it's easier and cheaper to squeeze plastic in reduced scale than it is to work in metal or full scale.

[MTechnik]

Not everyone who carries has to do so in a deep conceal or discreet manner. Some of us carry OWB or open carry

Oh, I wish!


and it would be nice to see some new innovations or variants in full-scale handguns.

P30, gen 4 glocks, M&P, FNX, XD...

Ok, so they're not 'different', but it seems there is a stream of new full size pistols that doesn't slow much. And I am sure a new XD with changeable side-panels will be coming along soon.

[SouthNarc]

Hey Todd why don't you scam a PPS and do the AFHF torture test thing? I kinda' like that little gun too.

[YVK]

On an average day. I am not that happy with my performance with regular sized pistols, so I don't see me getting a less shootable pistol, in any caliber.
BUG presents more logistic problems to me than any perceived benefits.

On a separate note, while I've not owned a PPS, I've tested one extensively. It is a neat pistol, but I don't see it being pocket-carried.

[MTechnik]

It is a neat pistol, but I don't see it being pocket-carried.

It works great with a desantis superfly:
http://mt3chn1k.com/FTT/pps_superfly.jpg

Holds it securely, even with an 8 round magazine, and one in the chamber too.
http://i.imgur.com/dKaoF.png

[JonInWA]

My concealed carry needs are well served by full and/or compact platforms, such as the Glock G17/G19/G21. With a good (read effective in both concealment, deployment and comfort aspects) holster and belt, I haven't found much need or justification to go any smaller than a G19.

My personal, unscientifically tested opinion is that there are inevitable compromises inherent to the micro guns (such as durability, longevity, accuracy, sights, ease in reloading) that mitigate against my use of them.

Best, Jon

[YVK]

It works great with a desantis superfly:


Holds it securely, even with an 8 round magazine, and one in the chamber too.


Yes, I am sure it can be concealed in a pocket, but to me it feels a bit too large for this mode of carry. When somebody says "pocket pistol", I think along the lines of Seecamp, Rohrbaugh, LCP etc. I think PPS is about pound and a half loaded; for my preferences, it is a bit too much for a pocket carry.

[Joe in PNG]

I love the idea of the mini 9mm. Sadly, the last time I tried one (Kel-tec PF-9), I did not have such a good time of it. I fired one shot, and then carefully put the gun down. Freaking Owwww! Most painful thing I've ever fired in my life.

Needless to say, I no longer own that gun- went for a S&W 64 instead. It's kind of hard to be proficient with a gun you can't stand to shoot.

[willowofwisp]

I carried a Kahr PM9 for a few months..and besides pocket/ankle carry it really wasn't any better than my 26.

[JodyH]

I bought a PM9 for moments like right now.
Home from work, already fed and showered, lounging around in shorts and a T-shirt.
PM9 in my pocket.
That's what a micro pistol does better than a compact like the Glock 26, or P2KSk.

[WBower]

I don't understand the pocket pistol thing either. I have fired the Khar PM9 and Walther PPS and thought they were both neat pistols, but I just don't see what they get me as far as concealability that my M&P9C doesn't.

Many of my coworkers with CCW licenses carry the LCP as their primary, and one fellow carries an Airweight S&W .38. They all believe they are incapable of concealing anything larger than this. They were shocked when I lifted my T-shirt and revealed an my M&P9C in an MTAC carried at 2:00.

Recently at an informal office trip to the local indoor range I asked these guys to have the pistol in their primary CCW configuration, and at the buzzer land 4 shots onto a 3"x5" card at 5 yards. Most of the times were in the 10 - 20 second range for the first round fired, one guy managed to get a shot off in < 3 second though, however NO ONE was able to land 4 out of the 6 or 7 rounds (LCP) or 5 (Bodyguard) in the weapon on the target. It was eye opening to me, yet it seemed to not even phase most of the guys. My one buddy who managed to get the shot off in 3 seconds was concerned, and we had a long talk about concealing "compact" and "subcompact" double stack service caliber pistols. I think he saw the light and has since begun practicing more with his .40 USP and ordered a quality IWB holster. He is totally geeked out with my new P30.

I think this test reflects most of the CCW permit holders out there these days sadly. I really just don't understand what is so hard about concealing a G19 sized pistol. :confused:

[jslaker]

Many of my coworkers with CCW licenses carry the LCP as their primary, and one fellow carries an Airweight S&W .38. They all believe they are incapable of concealing anything larger than this. They were shocked when I lifted my T-shirt and revealed an my M&P9C in an MTAC carried at 2:00.

If you have 16 minutes of your life to waste on "learning" more about the rationale:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4CuHBro1ek

For the record, nutnfancy is pretty much your stereotypical mall ninja type. He loves Glocks because they can accept 33 round magazines which he equates with "superior firepower", yet lambasts compact guns as useless and tells everyone they should carry pocket pistols instead. This video is particularly hilarious to me given he holds up a USPc as an example of a gun that "nobody is going to take with them" when it's a gun I've carried daily without issue for going on 3 years now.

At any rate, the micro craze is largely driven by people like this, as well as the people who are unfortunate enough to listen to them. Think about how many people whose only source of information about guns is their half-crazy uncle or the "expert" behind the gun counter at their local shop.

Unfortunately, many of the purchasing decisions that drive market demand aren't really based on good information.

[ToddG]

I think this test reflects most of the CCW permit holders out there these days sadly.

The average CCW holder puts as much thought into firearms knowledge and skill as the average car owner does into driving knowledge and skill. "Been doin' it all my life, I know what I'm doin'."

[Odin Bravo One]

I bit on a PM9 a couple of years back........carried it for about 2 days.

That said.........it's for sale if someone is interested.........I have no use for it.

[ToddG]

"Works great. Only thrown against the concrete floor in disgust once (or twice)." :cool:

[jslaker]

The average CCW holder puts as much thought into firearms knowledge and skill as the average car owner does into driving knowledge and skill. "Been doin' it all my life, I know what I'm doin'."

This actually brings up something I've found interesting and I'd be curious to see what your (and the other instructors') experience has been given the number of students you work with: I have generally found that, when starting off somebody new to shooting, that women are generally much faster on the initial uptake and more open to suggestion than men. Half the time, men seem to believe that their possession of a penis automatically bequeaths upon them an innate marksmanship ability, which is a problem I've never had with women.

[Joe in PNG]

My own personal take on why I carried a pocket gun. Back during my time in the USA, my work clothes and my non-work clothes tended to make a big difference on what I could carry.

Yes, when I wasn’t working I could pretty much carry and conceal anything. However, work was a different story. You see, I worked as a mechanic, for a religious organization, in Central Florida.

Which meant a few things. First, because of the heat, my work clothes were usually shorts and a t-shirt. So the shoot me vest, or any other concealing garment was right out. Second, as a mechanic, I got to do a lot of bending, stretching, crawling, twisting, ect. So, any pistol in any sort of waistband holster is getting a good bit of publicity. Not to mention danged uncomfortable. And that was a bad thing, as my garage was right across the street from a public park, plus one of the main entries to the building I worked for… blah blah blah.

So I had to carry a gun in a pocket, with not even the slightest hint of printing through that pocket. That meant a Baby Browning. Yes, I know that the .25acp is almost a “less lethal” caliber. But it beats harsh language and a handful of nothing.

[beltjones]

Unfortunately, many of the purchasing decisions that drive market demand aren't really based on good information.

This is the absolute truth.

On about day 3 of SHOT show this year, I was at the end of my rope from dry firing every pistol I could get my hands on at the booths. I wanted to scream at all the different company reps, "This is the trigger you put in your gun? Does no one at your company shoot, at all?"

[ToddG]

I wanted to scream at all the different company reps, "This is the trigger you put in your gun? Does no one at your company shoot, at all?"

Can't get into details, but there is a new line of pistols coming from a major manufacturer that will result in an echoing chorus of "WTF?" from the serious shooting community...

[TAP]

Can't get into details, but there is a new line of pistols coming from a major manufacturer that will result in an echoing chorus of "WTF?" from the serious shooting community...

I just bought a "Governor". Maybe now I can add a President and Vice President to my collection too. :rolleyes:

[ToddG]

I just bought a "Governor".

Perma-ban.

[beltjones]

I just bought a "Governor". Maybe now I can add a President and Vice President to my collection too. :rolleyes:

I'm waiting for the Crooked Judge before I get out my wallet. Maybe after that I'll order a Kel-Tec Tampered Jury and a Bersa Sleazy Lawyer.

[TCinVA]

Does no one at your company shoot, at all?"

The answer to that is, no...a lot of the times they don't. If they do have shooters on the payroll, they often don't listen to them.

As a very experienced instructor and former member of the SOF community once told me: "Being a paid consultant means that they give you a check so they can officially ignore you."

The average person walking into a gunshop to make a purchase can be charitably described as "unsophisticated"...and frankly so are a lot of agency purchases. That segment is the largest and therefore tends to drive the products and practices of the manufacturers. Hence the existence of the "Governor" revolver, which is the handgun that has made me feel most like Captain Ahab felt about the white whale. The "Governor" tasks me....it heaps me, yet it is but a mask. 'Tis the thing behind the mask that I hate, namely S&W spending time making that stupid hillbilly handgun instead of bringing out a good compact, single-stack 9mm handgun.

S&W will probably make more money with the White Whale than they will with my idea, though.

[Odin Bravo One]

"Works great. Only thrown against the concrete floor in disgust once (or twice)." :cool:

But it is still "functional"......and you hardly notice the scratches. The LaserGrip still works too.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I just bought a "Governor"From what I hear, Ohio and Wisconsin has one for sale, in case you want another.

[MDS]

For the record, nutnfancy is pretty much your stereotypical mall ninja type.

Gah!! I spent months trolling sites and youtubes and gun stores and instructors and magazines and buddies and every other source of ccw-related information I could find. As a noob, it took an enormous investment in time and energy just to sort out which sources of information I could sort of rely on. It's just so hard for a noob to boot-strap his education without "learning" so much falseness and forming so many ridiculous opinions and ingraining so many bad habits. I am not proud of the hours I've wasted watching this @$$-clown's videos. :mad: But it was this video that finally showed me that maybe he was blowing a lot of smoke, since even this noob had been carrying a USP45c for a while and never been made...

My interest in the pocket guns is for my wife, who feels like carrying a bigger gun on her person wouldn't be practical. After a little more education, we're working on trying a few things out - faliaphotography's YouTube channel is a great source of info. She's 5 months pregnant right now, so the whole thing is on hold for about 4 more months. But my take is that, while having a pocket gun as an option for certain situations is a good thing, as a solution for daily carry it usually means that you need to learn about other possibilities, and experiment to get the concealment you require. I have a J frame that I haven't carried in a long time, because my USP45c conceals well enough to walk my dog in shorts and a T-shirt. :cool:

[Red Leader]

Aside from reliability issues with a lot (maybe all) of the micro 9mm autos, I'd imagine they'd probably be really hard to get a good, fast grip on if you need it out in an instant.

can anyone whose carried this type of firearm to comment on the holstering/unholstering of the weapon?

[fuse]

My concealed carry needs are well served by full and/or compact platforms, such as the Glock G17/G19/G21. With a good (read effective in both concealment, deployment and comfort aspects) holster and belt, I haven't found much need or justification to go any smaller than a G19.

My personal, unscientifically tested opinion is that there are inevitable compromises inherent to the micro guns (such as durability, longevity, accuracy, sights, ease in reloading) that mitigate against my use of them.

Best, Jon

I rotate a g19 and g26. Man the 26 is accommodating. Why anyone thinks they need to go smaller always blows my mind when the topic comes up.

[fuse]

I just bought a "Governor". Maybe now I can add a President and Vice President to my collection too. :rolleyes:

They should make a 20 gauge handgun. Call it the UN Secretary General.

Or maybe the Appeal Judge.

[JodyH]

Aside from reliability issues with a lot (maybe all) of the micro 9mm autos, I'd imagine they'd probably be really hard to get a good, fast grip on if you need it out in an instant.

can anyone whose carried this type of firearm to comment on the holstering/unholstering of the weapon?
My PM9 has had zero malfunctions in 1500 rounds or so.
The reliability issues are greatly exaggerated.
Pay careful attention to the OWNERS MANUAL when it comes to special instructions (load Kahrs with the slide release lever, not by racking) and assembly (make sure the recoil and magazine springs are installed correctly).
Shoot good ammo and change recoil springs on schedule.

As to getting a grip and shooting.
I've done a sub-7 second FAST with my Kahr PM9. Drawing from a pocket holster and reloading from a pocket magazine carrier.

[P30shtr]

We are seeing more and more of these come out. Keltecs, Sigs, Walther (my pick!), even Kimber.

What are your thoughts on this?

Todd had this to say concerning the LC9 (from pistol-training), with which I completely agree. Especially the too big, not enough capacity bit.

Personally, I have a difficult time seeing a need for one given my carry habits. At almost an inch longer and an inch taller — not to mention twice the unloaded weight — it’s too big to serve as a convenient backup (something the LCP does quite well). But so small and with such a low capacity, it wouldn’t be my choice as a primary CCW gun, either. Then again, I do not fall into the “I can’t conceal something as huge as a Glock 26” crowd, do I?- Todd G

As far as this goes for the LC9, my guess would be it about sums up the rest of these new small 9's that are out these days.

I personally carry a P30 IWB so, I definitely dont fall into the "thats too big, I cant carry that" crowd. However, I do have an LCP which serves its purpose (BUG) well in my opinion. Pocket carry(back, right) in a Desantis nemesis.

[FotoTomas]

My all time favorite pistol is the GLOCK 26. For me it is the perfect packing pistol as it works well in all situations. Pocket or belt. On the other hand it is sometimes a bit much in my pocket depending on what I am wearing. For those days the S&W 638 got the duty.

Four years ago I bought into the Kahr PM9 concept. The first one was excellent for about 1000 rounds and then the peening issue with the barrel hood and slide caused malfunctions. Kahr replaced the Slide and barrel with no complaints. I then purchased one with the black diamond finish and night sights. It is smaller and flatter than my G26 and is flatter and easier to carry than my S&W model 638. Two more rounds than the "J". As a result the PM9 is my #1 pocket pistol and my EDC off duty. It often fills in as a BUG when I pack a G19, G26 or Beretta Centurion on the belt. It is always there.

I understand the appeal and laud the manufacturers that pursue the concept. The pocket 9mm is the best option for the power and capacity compromise needed for pocket carry. To me the .380 or .32 is too little while the .40 is to much for a pocket gun. The 9mm single stack sub compact is "Just Right."

[P30shtr]

It works great with a desantis superfly:
http://mt3chn1k.com/FTT/pps_superfly.jpg

Holds it securely, even with an 8 round magazine, and one in the chamber too.
http://i.imgur.com/dKaoF.png

MTech, which pocket do you carry this in? I carry my LCP in a Desantis, back pocket, strong side. That is the only place I feel comfortable with it. Front pocket, it looks like I have a tumor on my thigh. Cargos, it flops around and bangs off my leg. Even back pocket like I prefer, sitting, driving, well, now the tumor is on my ass. Jacket, OK well, here comes summer. And thats with an LCP, I deal with it because thats the price we pay to feel safe in these times but... I know, I know, carrying a weapon is supposed to be comforting not comfortable. For me the PPS would fall into the belt carry category (IWB, AWB, OWB) along with the G26, P2000sk, 239, 232, and the like. All small but, all a bit too big for this method. How do you pull this off (pocket carry a PPS)? Only way I could imagine is back pocket/strong side.

[MTechnik]

MTech, which pocket do you carry this in? I carry my LCP in a Desantis, back pocket, strong side. That is the only place I feel comfortable with it. Front pocket, it looks like I have a tumor on my thigh. Cargos, it flops around and bangs off my leg. Even back pocket like I prefer, sitting, driving, well, now the tumor is on my ass. Jacket, OK well, here comes summer. And thats with an LCP, I deal with it because thats the price we pay to feel safe in these times but... I know, I know, carrying a weapon is supposed to be comforting not comfortable. For me the PPS would fall into the belt carry category (IWB, AWB, OWB) along with the G26, P2000sk, 239, 232, and the like. All small but, all a bit too big for this method. How do you pull this off (pocket carry a PPS)? Only way I could imagine is back pocket/strong side.

95% of the time I carry it in a comp-tac minotaur. But when I do, front pocket, strong side. More than once it has ridden in a cargo pants pocket.

It was in my front left pocket when I was shoe shopping with my 2-1/2 year old (with him climbing all over me).

Editing to add pics -
standing with gun in left pocket (shield flap removed from desantis) and 6 round mag installed:
http://i.imgur.com/yoFxj.jpg

taking a step forward with my left leg (I'm a lefty, the gun is in that left pocket):
http://i.imgur.com/AfbHu.jpg

It is there, it isn't huge and obvious.

Especially since normally my pocket would have a bolus of keys, flashlight, knife, chapstick - it seems that a single flat thing doesn't poke out as much. I'm also an ex-smoker, I'm used to having a pack and lighter too.