I'm Rethinking My Stance On DA/SA

[Kennydale]

Rather than yelling at me You'll Shoot The Boys Off. I have been watching some honest dialogues on AIWB and carrying a Glock. I have had a not so good experience with a used Sig P239 in .40S&W (Having it ten months, just couldn't get close to how well I shot my G17). But, I'm soon to be 66 and i am thinking. Maybe I'd do better with let's say a PX 4 Storm (Full or compact) or a CZ P07(with a decocker) just for carry purposes. Leave the G17 to defend the Homestead.

[GJM]

I like the way you are thinking on this.

Here is my thinking. No male under 35 has enough maturity to carry a Glock AIWB. All males over 65 have too much maturity to carry a Glock AIWB. 36-64 years old is the sweet spot, so your Glock AIWB ship has sailed.

[Tamara]

Sig P239 in .40S&W (Having it ten months, just couldn't get close to how well I shot my G17)

*wipes hands on shop rag* I think I see your problem. ;)

Comparing a bitty little single-stack Fo-tay against a soft-shooting full-size service nine will leave a bad taste in your mouth about the former, no matter what trigger mechanism it uses. ;)

[taadski]

I like the way you are thinking on this.

Here is my thinking. No male under 35 has enough maturity to carry a Glock AIWB. All males over 65 have too much maturity to carry a Glock AIWB. 36-64 years old is the sweet spot, so your Glock AIWB ship has sailed.


Isn't that tying yourself to a rather short timeline? 😈

[PNWTO]

As I look ahead to a coming time of political uncertainty I am way too invested in Glock for any major course change. That said, my next purchase will be probably be a M9A1 and some leather goods to go with it, maybe a SME to try the big Italian AIWB.

Whatever your criteria is for EDC, I think every "student of the pistol" owes it to their interest and perhaps self-preservation to own and challenge themselves with the differing operating platform, case in point is SLG's current "Favorite Weapon" thread. IMO, anyone who takes pistolcraft seriously should have a DA/SA and DA wheelgun, they will teach you a shit ton.

[SLG]

end thread at Tam's comment.

Ban GJM.

[GJM]

end thread at Tam's comment.

Ban GJM.


There you go again with your anti-239 bias. :)

[Robinson]

That said, my next purchase will be probably be a M9A1 and some leather goods to go with it, maybe a SME to try the big Italian AIWB.

I did this a while back. I carry a 1911, but I bought a Beretta M9A1 and an AIWB holster to try out. My goal was to gain some understanding of the DA/SA pistol as well as some familiarity with AIWB -- and for that part I knew I didn't want to start with a striker fired pistol. What I discovered is that the Beretta is a high quality pistol, the double action first shot is not really a big deal, and AIWB has its advantages. Being a long-time revolver user may have helped with the trigger press, I'm not sure. I didn't really warm up to the safety mechanism though.

[Hauptmann]

*wipes hands on shop rag* I think I see your problem. ;)

Comparing a bitty little single-stack Fo-tay against a soft-shooting full-size service nine will leave a bad taste in your mouth about the former, no matter what trigger mechanism it uses. ;)

On the mark.

To the OP, you will never shoot a full sized service 9mm as well as a subcompact .40S&W......period. The G17 sight radius gives you far more shooting precision, the full sized grip better resists grip breakdown and shot fliers, and the much softer recoil allows for better psychological resistance to trigger jerk and recoil anticipation.

That being said, I shoot a P239 9mm pretty damn well. :D

[1slow]

On the mark.

To the OP, you will never shoot a full sized service 9mm as well as a subcompact .40S&W......period. The G17 sight radius gives you far more shooting precision, the full sized grip better resists grip breakdown and shot fliers, and the much softer recoil allows for better psychological resistance to trigger jerk and recoil anticipation.

That being said, I shoot a P239 9mm pretty damn well. :D
Is something backward here ?

[LittleLebowski]

I like the Langdon-ized PX4 Compact a lot. Enough that I wish I had the scratch to buy one for myself. And the mags. And the backup pistol. And the holsters. And so and so on.

[Nephrology]

I like the Langdon-ized PX4 Compact a lot. Enough that I wish I had the scratch to buy one for myself. And the mags. And the backup pistol. And the holsters. And so and so on.

Yup - each time I get the itch to go SA/DA, this happens...

I am more likely to buy into Ruger sixguns for my post-hillary apocalypse carry pistol than I am to buy into a SIG or a Beretta at this point....

[CCT125US]

There you go again with your anti-239 bias. :)

I believe it self identifies as a 229.

[bornandraisedlv]

I recently made the same decision, albeit different guns, and went with a HK p30sk LEM. The reason I chose this is because I only owned striker fired hand guns and HK's LEM is basically a DA only. So about as close to my striker fired trigger action that I love so much as I could find. No safety or decocker so clears that area for a nice high and forward grip. But you get the comfort of riding the hammer as you reholster, which for aiwb I feel is a must. Also you get the long pre travel on the first trigger pull like you would on a standard sa/da.

Just something to toss out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LSP552]

*wipes hands on shop rag* I think I see your problem. ;)

Comparing a bitty little single-stack Fo-tay against a soft-shooting full-size service nine will leave a bad taste in your mouth about the former, no matter what trigger mechanism it uses. ;)

A P239 in 9mm is one of the best shooting small pistols out there. It's bit heavy, but shoots like a full size service pistol. Mine is not for sale.

[Hauptmann]

A P239 in 9mm is one of the best shooting small pistols out there. It's bit heavy, but shoots like a full size service pistol. Mine is not for sale.

Yep, same here. From my own long experience with Sigs, the best ones to carry are the P226 and the P239.

[psalms144.1]

Yep, same here. From my own long experience with Sigs, the best ones to carry are the P226 and the P239.I was once almost banned from another forum for suggesting exactly that. My point was that the P228 (which I love dearly) isn't "smaller enough" than the P226 to give up the capacity and shootability of the larger Sig, while the P239 does, IMHO. I was branded a heretic, burned in effigy, tarred and feathered, etc. for weeks. Some folks LOVE their "pet" pistols...

[GJM]

I was once almost banned from another forum for suggesting exactly that. My point was that the P228 (which I love dearly) isn't "smaller enough" than the P226 to give up the capacity and shootability of the larger Sig, while the P239 does, IMHO. I was branded a heretic, burned in effigy, tarred and feathered, etc. for weeks. Some folks LOVE their "pet" pistols...

I suspect talking bad about a 228/229 here might be a banning offense. You just like the 239/226 combo because you are a wannabe SEAL. :)

[psalms144.1]

I suspect talking bad about a 228/229 here might be a banning offense. You just like the 239/226 combo because you are a wannabe SEAL. :)Not me, seals eat fish, not bacon...

[Hauptmann]

I was once almost banned from another forum for suggesting exactly that. My point was that the P228 (which I love dearly) isn't "smaller enough" than the P226 to give up the capacity and shootability of the larger Sig, while the P239 does, IMHO. I was branded a heretic, burned in effigy, tarred and feathered, etc. for weeks. Some folks LOVE their "pet" pistols...

Yeah the P228/P229 makes a lot of sense on paper........compact size, double stacked mags, good balance. However, when you take them to the range and race them against a P226 they always come up short in speed and accuracy. I've often helped many struggling shooters by taking the P228/P229 out of their hands and gave them a P226.

As for the P239, sure it is big and heavy for a subcompact(really more of a hybrid between a compact and sub), but as others have said it shoots like a larger gun meaning it can be run fast and because of the full length rails it is almost as accurate as a P226. The P239s that I have shot have always been more accurate than a P228/P229. I have beat a few guys on dueling trees with a P239 .40, versus their full sized P220 .45s.

[MGW]

I'm not carrying a 229 full time yet but it hits the full size AIWB carry comfort sweet spot for me. It has the capacity, size, and shootability advantages of a Glock 19. Plus it has the advantage of a hammer to thumb when holstering. Actually, I'm more accurate with the 229 compared to the 19. Just not as fast with it in drills. Yet.

The 239 is the single stack I had been searching for and just didn't know it. Until I shot one. I ditched the finger groove Hogues for stock grips and added grip tape to the front strap. It needs a SRT and new sights and then it will be perfect.

I'm early on in my transition to DA/SA. I'm in my mid 40's but was becoming increasingly uncomfortable with a striker fired pistol at my 12:30. Plus, I just really enjoy shooting Sigs. I practiced with Glocks because practice was what I was supposed to do. I practice with Sigs because it's damn fun. Can't wait to take the class from Tom Givens in July that I signed up for.

I dry fire 3-4 times a week but sometimes it's 4-6 weeks between live fire sessions. I don't consider that enough practice time to keep myself striker fire AIWB qualified.

My only question now is should I buy a 226 to shoot competitions with or should I buy a back up 229? Maybe I should buy a second 239 since it has the highest round count? Decisions, decisions.

[EVP]

I am surprised nobody has said " keep your G17" since the gadget is coming soon

. I thought about going with a Wilson beretta or a sig to try da/sa but when I thought about the weight savings of a g17, ease of maintenance, and service life, it was a easy and less expensive option to stay with the glock.

[SLG]

I suspect talking bad about a 228/229 here might be a banning offense. You just like the 239/226 combo because you are a wannabe SEAL. :)

Believe me, if I could ban people here...:-)


"I believe it self identifies as a 229."

No self respecting 229 would stand for that, but I wouldn't be surprised if the 239 tried to make itself out to be more than it is. :-)



On a more serious note, I love the internet, since as we've already learned, everyone's opinion is equal. Very egalitarian.

It is especially interesting when people put their own limitations onto a gun. As if the gun cares what you think about it. "Not today."

[SLG]

I am surprised nobody has said " keep your G17" since the gadget is coming soon

. I thought about going with a Wilson beretta or a sig to try da/sa but when I thought about the weight savings of a g17, ease of maintenance, and service life, it was a easy and less expensive option to stay with the glock.

Apparently it is really, really hard to carry a g17, so people need lots of guns to be able to go about their day. You must be wrong.;-)

[Matt O]

Indeed, why not just keep the G17 and get a gadget? $55 or so is a helluva lot cheaper than a new gun and assorted accouterments.

[LittleLebowski]

Indeed, why not just keep the G17 and get a gadget? $55 or so is a helluva lot cheaper than a new gun and assorted accouterments.

http://i.imgur.com/ESv4b.gif

[psalms144.1]

Apparently it is really, really hard to carry a g17, so people need lots of guns to be able to go about their day. You must be wrong.;-)#meangirlwhocanconcealanything. Don't be a hater :p

[Tamara]

A P239 in 9mm is one of the best shooting small pistols out there.

I have to admit to a slight irrational grudge against the P239 in 9x19 because the gun supplanted the P225, and I was a closet 225 fangirl. It's ridiculously easy to shoot well in 9mm, though; you're right about that.

[Tamara]

I am surprised nobody has said " keep your G17" since the gadget is coming Soon™

FIFY :D

[45dotACP]

Rather than yelling at me You'll Shoot The Boys Off. I have been watching some honest dialogues on AIWB and carrying a Glock. I have had a not so good experience with a used Sig P239 in .40S&W (Having it ten months, just couldn't get close to how well I shot my G17). But, I'm soon to be 66 and i am thinking. Maybe I'd do better with let's say a PX 4 Storm (Full or compact) or a CZ P07(with a decocker) just for carry purposes. Leave the G17 to defend the Homestead.

So here's my thoughts...not expert thoughts, just thoughts.

I'd probably just stay with the Glock if you found you haven't been shooting the TDA gun well. I say this as a guy who was converted to the TDA side by articles and videos published by dudes like Todd Green and Ernest Langdon, but I think you don't need an entirely new gun, holster, mags, spare parts, sights etc...that stuff adds up so fast it would make your head spin....I say this as someone who has dabbled in several different guns and then realized it's all shit and I'm the limiting factor here. The TDA doesn't offer enough advantage IMO to completely re-tool with all the cost of all that gear IMO.

As for AIWB and safety with a striker fired gun, there's the Gadget, and I'd look at MrWhite's training journal and the Appendix Carry thread and look for stuff that MrWhite says and consider it. He's a smart dude and has been AIWB carrying a Glock long before the gadget showed up onto the scene. He also knows a LOT about safety.

And also yes, a small frame gun in .40 is not the easiest gun to shoot well. I'd ditch that 239 either way.

[Hizzie]

I liked TDA. I'll be selling off the WCBT to fund a PX4 CC.

[Father of 3]

I love the banter here at PF :)

I had my stint at DA/SA after reading about easy it was to perform a DIY vasectomy but realized I couldn't hit crap with the DA first shot. I am 31 and started out on striker fired guns at 22. I thought that I could master the DA first pull but found that it will require A LOT of practice and training on my part to change what I have engrained so far. Not to say that it cannot happen, but will be a learning curve.

After coming to the conclusion that the DA first round was more of a warning shot, and hence a liability, I also concluded that if I have a good holster and am always cognizant of what I am doing when reholstering, I should be ok. No awards given, as far as I know, for the fastest back to the holster.

OTOH, if having something to coon finger (a term I picked up at PF) when reholstering is your thing, you could always get an XD/XDM. It has a grip safety and little doodad-thingy sticking out the back to tell you its cocked. OK, JUST KIDDING ON THIS ONE.

[JustOneGun]

Assuming self defense as the goal.

Are you changing to a pistol that makes saving your life in a defensive shooting harder in order to not shoot yourself during training?

Holstering can be a problem no matter the pistol. We should fear not using the decocker and 1911 safety. If the length of travel into the holster exceeds the length of travel of the trigger the LDA pistol would probably be ruled out same as the Glock.

So if one is afraid of the AIWB Glock then I would expect to see a DAO pistol with a consistent 12# trigger? But we had AD/ND's with them too.

And just for fun:

I think I'll just start summarizing the AIWB fears as, "Failure to decock AIWB leading to decocking." or "Failure to engage safety leading to a bang on your boys." And finally, "If one is so worried about AIWB but not the cause of the AD/ND, then just carry at three o'clock and shoot yourself in the ass."

[LittleLebowski]

I love the banter here at PF :)

I had my stint at DA/SA after reading about easy it was to perform a DIY vasectomy but realized I couldn't hit crap with the DA first shot. I am 31 and started out on striker fired guns at 22. I thought that I could master the DA first pull but found that it will require A LOT of practice and training on my part to change what I have engrained so far. Not to say that it cannot happen, but will be a learning curve.

After coming to the conclusion that the DA first round was more of a warning shot, and hence a liability, I also concluded that if I have a good holster and am always cognizant of what I am doing when reholstering, I should be ok. No awards given, as far as I know, for the fastest back to the holster.


Some options:

Gadget (http://www.gunnuts.net/2015/07/03/the-gadget-an-additional-safety-device-for-glock-pistols/).

Training from the world champion that only uses DA/SA pistols (http://www.langdontactical.com/Class-Schedule.html) (he is also one of our SMEs :cool:) and this article (http://pistol-training.com/articles/fear-not-the-double-action-shot).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsoX26OhDCY

[Robinson]

I thought that I could master the DA first pull but found that it will require A LOT of practice and training on my part to change what I have engrained so far. Not to say that it cannot happen, but will be a learning curve.

I am not a SME on DA/SA triggers.

Not too long ago I acquired a Beretta M9A1 and set out to gain understanding of the double action trigger. My first few trips to the range may have been frustrating if not for the fact that I was expecting there to be a learning curve. It really didn't take long to start becoming more comfortable with the transition from DA to SA and I actually got to where I liked the trigger quite a lot. The safety not so much -- I might actually prefer the Sig decocker or perhaps a G model Beretta.

I did not switch from 1911s to DA/SA guns as a result, but I did learn that the Beretta is a really nice pistol and the DA/SA transition isn't necessarily a barrier to shooting ability. I remember also watching several of Mr. Langdon's videos during that time, which were helpful. If you really want to be a double action pistol user, don't give up.

Forgot to mention: I did install a D spring in the M9A1.

[M2CattleCo]

I like the way you are thinking on this.

Here is my thinking. No male under 35 has enough maturity to carry a Glock AIWB. All males over 65 have too much maturity to carry a Glock AIWB. 36-64 years old is the sweet spot, so your Glock AIWB ship has sailed.

I guess I'm lucky that I have all my pieces and they work! I was carrying a Glock AIWB in 2007-2008 after a some good 'ol sciatica and have been off and on with Glocks ever since then. I am not comfortable re-holstering a Glock under stress at all. Even after doing it in training many times, I just don't like it.

The 9mm P239 in a Fricke Archangel with a JM AIWB spare mag carrier has been my absolute favorite carry setup. I love my P239s, they're all in 9mm, dead reliable, easy enough to shoot decently.

Can I run a 239 like I can a Glock 17 or a 226? No. Can I carry a 17 or a 226 like I can a 239? No.

[DacoRoman]

Indeed, why not just keep the G17 and get a gadget? $55 or so is a helluva lot cheaper than a new gun and assorted accouterments.

And unless you are just talented, the ammo you may have to burn getting good with a new trigger system.

[Greg]

I think one's success with running a TDA pistol does have something to do with the TDA you are running.

In my (limited) experience, Sigs have had the smoothest DA pull. My CZ P-07 is very shootable (18 lb hammer spring and bending the trigger bar return spring). My S&W 3913 is pretty stinking good in the DA pull as well.

My HK USP's DA flat-out sucked. Others I've tried fell in between the guns mentioned.

[newyork]

Man this makes me want a Sig P225-A1. I do have an HK45c coming though. Same capacity. Lighter. I'm sure the trigger won't be as smooth but I do get to choose between da/sa, SAO, and DAO. Kind of nice.

[ReverendMeat]

Yeah the P228/P229 makes a lot of sense on paper........compact size, double stacked mags, good balance. However, when you take them to the range and race them against a P226 they always come up short in speed and accuracy. I've often helped many struggling shooters by taking the P228/P229 out of their hands and gave them a P226.

Maybe often, but not always. The recoil impulse feels different between the 226, 228, and 229 and I prefer the feel of the 229 over the other two. It feels more consistent to me and the sights are easier to track, and the grip is shaped just different enough that it fills my hand better, I'm less likely to ride the slide stop, and less likely to accidentally drop a mag by squeezing wrong with my support hand. 229 > 226 > 228 IMO. I'm sure that's heresy.


I have to admit to a slight irrational grudge against the P239 in 9x19 because the gun supplanted the P225, and I was a closet 225 fangirl. It's ridiculously easy to shoot well in 9mm, though; you're right about that.

Be honest, between the two which one would you actually prefer to shoot? (More heresy: I do not like shooting 225s)