Stoppage 82 rounds after cleaning

[OlongJohnson]

Picked up an old S&W 3953 LEO trade-in. Plenty of wear on the rails, filthy and grungy. Whatever lube had last been applied was solidified into brown boogers. Detail stripped, put in a new recoil spring and got it all lubed up with SFL-0 yesterday. Trigger pull was 11 lb, 7 oz on my Lyman gauge.

Took it to the range for a shakedown this afternoon. Was surprised how accurately I was able to shoot it (slow fire range rules) with that heavy trigger pull, but the groups started to spread on the ninth and tenth magazines in spite of more clean bullseye hits. Was very difficult to press the trigger on #81. Was physically unable to complete the hammer release on #82. It was like reps at the gym. The first one's easy, the last one's impossible. Switched hands, just so the last round in the mag could exit through the barrel, and called it a day. Keeping the targets, photo of the ammo boxes, log of the trigger pull test (original handwritten note and spreadsheet) for possible future reference.

[RevolverRob]

Wait, I'm confused, did the gun stop or did you run out of strength to work the trigger in your strong hand? Because it seems like round 82 was able to be fired with the off hand?

Do you think the trigger was harder because the gun was dirty? Did you test the trigger pull after the last "unable to complete hammer release", had it increased?

[Luke]

This should be another reason you won't be doing the 2,000 round challenge.

[OlongJohnson]

Calling it a stoppage was kinda tongue in cheek, but technically, I did fail to complete the cycle of operation.

Haven't detected any difference in actual trigger pull weight. But with that heavy pull, my trigger finger became so fatigued that it didn't have the strength to complete the pull. By all indications, this pistol could similarly weaken the trigger fingers of several or many shooters without any maintenance attention.

The reason I wouldn't do a 2000 round challenge with a 3953 is in this post, but it's not related to hand strength.

[RevolverRob]

I don't want to get really snarky here. What have you been shooting before? Glock? 1911? 11 pounds, 7 ounces isn't "light", but that is "perfectly servicable" in my experience. I've had no issues running 1000+ rounds a day through my 3913 with more than half of those rounds fired DA. Similarly, I've done 5-600 round days multiple in a row with my GP100 with an 11-pound, 3 ounce pull, without trigger finger fatigue.

If 81 rounds it taxing you in this way, I strongly recommend a set of rubber training bands for finger strength (http://www.amazon.com/Expand-Your-Hand-Bands-10-Pack-Goodbye/dp/B00083B79M/ref=sr_1_2?s=exercise-and-fitness&ie=UTF8&qid=1464584414&sr=1-2&keywords=finger+hand+exercisers) and a grip/finger strength trainer I like Grip Master PRO (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00GXVTL6O/ref=s9_dcbhz_bw_g200_i2_sh) - I use the Extra Heavy Tension (12-pounds), because it mimics the heaviest weight of my DA-revolver pulls. If you want trouble free DA-shooting sessions, work your way up to the 12-pound tension one. You should be able to close all of the levers with each finger, then I simply wrap my hand around it, like I would my revolver stock, compressing the palm, and three fingers, and then I work the index finger exactly like I am dry-firing. Great for building hand strength and giving you some "trigger" reps, especially in the office or someplace you can't dryfire.

Just a word of warning on grip strength training...DO NOT OVERDO IT. Twice a week for 30 minutes, or once a day for 10 minutes - maximum. Otherwise you are much more likely to develop wrist/hand issues than hand strength.

[Handy]

I read this three times and I do not understand what the problem is, if it isn't heavy trigger + hand strength.


I once tried the FBI trigger test - 29 or more pulls on a S&W DA revolver in 30 seconds. I have strong hands, but that was no joke.

[SLG]

I hope no one wonders why SeanM feels the way he does.

[Josh Runkle]

Picked up an old S&W 3953 LEO trade-in. Plenty of wear on the rails, filthy and grungy. Whatever lube had last been applied was solidified into brown boogers. Detail stripped, put in a new recoil spring and got it all lubed up with SFL-0 yesterday. Trigger pull was 11 lb, 7 oz on my Lyman gauge.

Took it to the range for a shakedown this afternoon. Was surprised how accurately I was able to shoot it (slow fire range rules) with that heavy trigger pull, but the groups started to spread on the ninth and tenth magazines in spite of more clean bullseye hits. Was very difficult to press the trigger on #81. Was physically unable to complete the hammer release on #82. It was like reps at the gym. The first one's easy, the last one's impossible. Switched hands, just so the last round in the mag could exit through the barrel, and called it a day. Keeping the targets, photo of the ammo boxes, log of the trigger pull test (original handwritten note and spreadsheet) for possible future reference.

Do you do a dry fire routine? If so, what is your dry fire routine? If not, you probably lack sufficient strength to pull the trigger correctly, and are essentially wasting each round you shoot, if you can't control your trigger finger.

[GRV]

Read the OP, read Rob's reply....went back to reread the thread title and I'm now laughing out loud so hard that I can't breathe and I'm literally crying.

Thanks, I needed that.


ETA: Guys, don't feed the troll. It was a great troll, really solid PF satire, but there's really no need to fulfill it. The only way this could be funnier is if it isn't actually a troll.

[Kyle Reese]

The Ignore feature seems to be getting lots of use lately.

[Mark]

Come on guys.......when did this turn into a group of mean girls roaming the threads?

[SLG]

Come on guys.......when did this turn into a group of mean girls roaming the threads?

I would normally agree with you, and will still keep that in mind as I write this and other posts.

As has been pointed out before...When a guy comes on here who is obviously a casual shooter and starts to tell high end users (many people on this site) how he's going to do things because they are prematurely wearing their guns out. Then posts about his cleaned and lubed "rescue" "malfunctioning" after 82 rounds. Then admits that it was a joke because it was his hand strength that was lacking, not the gun...it is very hard to think that person has anything to contribute here at all.

when I go to other sites outside my area, or even just places where the people don't know me, I use the SEARCH function a lot. I read, A LOT. If I ask a question, it is as precise and carefully worded as possible, in order to get the answer I want, as well as let a bunch of people who I don't know, realize that I am sincerely asking a question in order to learn.

I'm not suggesting that PF should just be a place where people who don't know, ask for answers from people who do know. "for Teachers and Students of the pistol." is right there at the top. That implies certain things. It's ok to stray, but when straying becomes the norm, then we end up with garbage.

A variation on the OP here that might have been better received (short version): "I just rescued this nice old Smith DAO. I have very weak hands/injuries/medical problems, that make it hard for me to shoot a regular weight DA trigger well. I was surprised at how shootable this old Smith was. After 82 rds, I was unable to continue shooting it, so to tie into my thread about not doing the 2,000 rd test, I will point out that I am unable to shoot 2,000 rds in a reasonably short time whether the gun can or not. I guess I can't become a cop at any department that has a trigger pull test, LOL. :-)"

I don't think anyone would have jumped on him then, and instead, people may have been able to relate to his problem, as I know lots of us have had hand issues over the years. That would have led to a discussion that might have been useful, IDK.

[BehindBlueI's]

Look, every post I've seen from you has referenced the 2,000 round challenge. We get it. If you're just hear to say how you don't agree with it, you've made your point. We get it. You don't want to do it. Let it go.

If you legitimately want some advice on hand strengthening, I'm your guy. I've broken my primary hand twice resulting in crooked fingers and bonus hardware inside my hand to hold shit together, have nerve damage that caused numbness in my support hand, and have worked my way back from a below 60 lb grip strength to over 120 lb grip strength. If you are LEGITIMATELY interested, say so and I'll lay out how I did it. If you're just hear to troll or poke the bear, I'll not waste anyone's time.

[GRV]

Look, every post I've seen from you has referenced the 2,000 round challenge. We get it. If you're just hear to say how you don't agree with it, you've made your point. We get it. You don't want to do it. Let it go.

If you legitimately want some advice on hand strengthening, I'm your guy. I've broken my primary hand twice resulting in crooked fingers and bonus hardware inside my hand to hold shit together, have nerve damage that caused numbness in my support hand, and have worked my way back from a below 60 lb grip strength to over 120 lb grip strength. If you are LEGITIMATELY interested, say so and I'll lay out how I did it. If you're just hear to troll or poke the bear, I'll not waste anyone's time.

I don't give a crap whether he's interested, but I'm legitimately interested.

[Sawyer]

However you want to justify the reasons, a bunch of people here.....they tend to be the regulars who know each other, act like mean girls periodically. You can justify it however you want, you think someone is ignorant, they don't know the etiquette, they don't use the search button enough, they post too much. Whatever it is, it doesn't justify the mean girl behavior. How about politely explain why you think something is wrong or a bad idea, or just that there's a better way to do it. Nothing will justify mean girl behavior to me.....admittedly ymmv. It's not just here. I also see allot of primadonna behavior at M4C as well. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if you all used to hang out but then went mean girl on each other and created your own forums. If you want a thread with "quality" "knowledgeable" people....maybe you could vet members and start a special forum. Use a police 10 code and call it 10-8 forums for example. That will thrive like crazy with all the perfectness and will be a bastion of huge volumes of discussions with new ideas. Another option is to stay and hint that you might go home and deprive the forum of your awesomeness and wait till the other mean girls come crashing in to say how they'd miss you. You'll probably get just that because mean girls travel in packs.

Forums, no matter how awesome we think we are are more recreation then anything else where we also learn some things from time to time. I'm a big believer in treating people with respect and kindness no matter how much smarter or better I may think I am. But one thing I have no problem calling out is mean girls.

[Sawyer]

It's a very big internet and it's likely that you'd be happier elsewhere. I won't be offended if you chose to stop participating (if 40 days and 10 posts can be honestly considered participation) because the "culture" is not to your liking.

So, at the risk or being a "mean girl" (again), I would respectfully state the PF is NOT a safe space and that your participation is not required.

Am I being kicked out for pointing out the mean girl behavior?

[StraitR]

Am I being kicked out for pointing out the mean girl behavior?

Unless you and Mark are one of the same, you didn't point out the mean girl behavior. And Tom will never tell someone they're kicked out, it will either simply happen, or in your case, politely point you to the door.

The fact that you've been here for a month and happily jumped into this discussion merely highlights the issues bringing out all the "mean girls".

[SLG]

Am I being kicked out for pointing out the mean girl behavior?

I don't think anyone is kicking you out. I do suggest you go read up on honor culture vs. dignity culture, and see where you fall. I live in both worlds, and they can certainly conflict at times. Acting like a gentleman is honorable, but sometimes some dignity needs to be sacrificed too. You don't have to be 18 to benefit from having a boot put to you, and most people seem to learn more permanent lessons that way. I know I do. I also appreciate people who speak their minds bluntly. I'm not into nuance.

[BWT]

Look, every post I've seen from you has referenced the 2,000 round challenge. We get it. If you're just hear to say how you don't agree with it, you've made your point. We get it. You don't want to do it. Let it go.

If you legitimately want some advice on hand strengthening, I'm your guy. I've broken my primary hand twice resulting in crooked fingers and bonus hardware inside my hand to hold shit together, have nerve damage that caused numbness in my support hand, and have worked my way back from a below 60 lb grip strength to over 120 lb grip strength. If you are LEGITIMATELY interested, say so and I'll lay out how I did it. If you're just hear to troll or poke the bear, I'll not waste anyone's time.

I'd definitely be interested in.

I've effectively stopped any kind of grip development (I know I was supposed to go to the Doctor but I'm very busy these days and the pain stopped shortly after my practices stopped).

Here's a thread I started back in February looking for exactly this kind of input. I know enough to know I don't have healthy habits and I need to learn and understand the practice before I start again.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19244-Healthy-Grip-Strengthening

God Bless,

Brandon

P.S. As far as the "mean girl" mentality, I would say this is probably the most relaxed place on the internet I've experienced. What other moderators and site staff basically will take it right on the chin once a year and try to change things? Quite honestly, I believe if at any time someone went into the General Discussion forum and start a thread with meaningful and sincere complaints; the staff will address it in a constructive way.

Are there a few members that post a lot or seem authoritarian? It's because they are. Most of the SME's from what I've gathered have around 20 (if not more) years of experience with gun handling in harm's way.

I had a realization a while ago; I'd qualify myself as an amateur. Have I owned and used guns for going on 10 years? Yes. Do I own a lot of guns? Debatable (comparatively to some here; I'd say No) but Yes. Do I have some circumstantial knowledge that may give me some insights? Yes.

But overall, I don't carry a firearm for a living (and I haven't), I don't compete at any major level (or with any consistency these days), I don't design firearms or have a background in a gun related industry. In my estimation, I'd do well to just sit and learn what I can and contribute what I can. However, when someone with one of those backgrounds starts talking, usually, it's pretty respectfully here and I defer to their experience or their expertise. Just approach it with humility. Let's be completely honest; dude buddy shows up and mocks the 2,000 round challenge (who the founder of this forum started based off his background), and there's 15-20 pages of people trying to reason with him. Then it's a bunch of mean girls? Try that anywhere else, go into a scientific community and go "You know that scientific method thing? Complete Crap".

I am in my estimation an amateur; I'd put myself at the shallow end of the pool here and the older I get the more I realize that's not a big deal unless my ego can't take it. Personally, I've found an ego to be pretty much worthless in life, and I've found it to be better for relationships, learning, and generally getting through life to leave it behind.

I've found a simple Proverb helps me; "A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind." Proverbs 18:2, and there's a parable in Luke 14:7-11 that essentially ends in "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted.".

I'm not saying you can't contribute anything but, it might save you some heart burn to come, observe the environment, offer insights in earnest, and settle in before starting questioning what is foundational here (for good reason). That'll serve you well whether you stay here or go.

Wish you the best,

God Bless,

Brandon

[Lomshek]

I hope no one wonders why SeanM feels the way he does.

Is that a record for number of likes?

[hufnagel]

We need a way for members to "flag" posts for their future reference. Nyeti had a GREAT post on this exact subject. I just wish i could find it.

OP: This is not a "safe space." The people here are smart, educated, and willing to teach. The are NOT interested in hand-holding or cuddling or making sure your precious little feewings aren't hurt. The correct tool for the task is usually used, and if that tool is a smack upside the head then that's what is used. I've been smacked myself a few times, for good reason and have taken my deserved lumps. They're not all a soulless serious bunch though, Romper Room is the perfect definition of where steam is blown off and good natured ribbing occurs. You're in the 'Semi Auto' subforum though, a place where serious business is conducted. Expect to be frowned upon if you post material that doesn't qualify.

MODS: I'd like to suggest a lock on this thread, sooner rather than later, to prevent a big steaming dog pile from forming, more so than it is.