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JRCHolsters
10-31-2011, 07:49 AM
Wow, last night about 7pm, a local woman was coming out of the local Walmart with her son(7-8 years old) and was accosted near her vehicle by 3 illegal immigrants. One ended up stabbing her multiple times and she died a little later at the hospital. All three were caught shortly thereafter.
This is a fairly bizarre situation, as this is a sleepy rural area in upstate NY. At the same time, with Rochester and Buffalo 50 miles in either direction, I am surprised something like this hasn't happened sooner. The people have been lulled into a very false sense of security in places like this. Partially it is the small town attitude of "it can't happen here", but a lot of it is the anti gun/self protection stance that most NYS counties have. It is possible to obtain a pistol permit here, but most people don't. When I talk with people about the virtues of getting a permit, the pretty standard response I get is, 'oh, pistols are dangerous and the police can protect me", or 'it's too complicated to get one".
People here walk around in a fog, never noticing what is going on right beside them. When I am out and about, in my usual scan mode, I see most people are clueless that some one is behind them, or some unsavory looking guy is watching them. After last night, my wife suddenly feels a lot better about my drilling into her the idea of constantly scanning your surroundings for something out of kilter. After living in places where a vast majority of people carry, to living here I do now, I see a very different mindset on self protection and situational awareness.
If you live in an area that freely issues permits, or is more open minded about self protection, do you notice a different mindset of the people in general, compared to places that make it tougher on the average citizen?

JHC
10-31-2011, 08:32 AM
I live in an extremely gun friendly area with shall issue ccw laws. Pretty much as good as it gets. Even includes shield from civil litigation if LE judges an action justified. Lots of people have permits. But most folks are as condition white as the driven snow.

TCinVA
10-31-2011, 09:41 AM
This is a fairly bizarre situation, as this is a sleepy rural area in upstate NY.

I've often encountered "this is a good area" among the general populace. It's as if folks think bad guys can't travel.

The incident has apparently made national news:

http://thedailynewsonline.com/news/article_237e6cb8-036c-11e1-8987-001cc4c002e0.html



Byham was shopping alone and had just left the store when she was approached by three men as she got to her car about 7 p.m.

‘‘She suffered multiple stab wounds to the torso,’’ Hess said. ‘‘She was shopping by herself and was not with any of the three men.’’

Byham, of Albion, was transported to Medina Memorial Hospital, where she was pronounced dead at 7:40 p.m.

Several people witnessed the attack and were able to give police a description of the men, who took off running east toward the village of Albion.

Two of the men were caught in separate homes in the village, about 90 minutes after the attack, Hess said.

Hess said it was unclear what the motive was but investigators were looking at the possibility of an altercation inside the store or a robbery.

‘‘There is no evidence whatsoever to indicate that the defendant and the victim knew each other,’’ Hess said. ‘‘Sheriff’s investigators believe that the defendant specifically targeted the victim only after she exited the store and walked towards her car. This appears to be a random act of violence.’’


A sobering reminder of what's at stake when you're out and about.

JRCHolsters
10-31-2011, 09:42 AM
Mind boggling! I grew up in NYC, and as a kid, I was taught to always be aware of my surrounding and how not to be a hapless victim. This has always carried with me and I have taught my children the same thing. It's a shame because even a little bit of awareness can lessen your chances of being a victim.

41magfan
10-31-2011, 10:11 AM
I think it's pretty common for our perception of reality to be skewed by notions of probability. Statistics on getting struck by lightening, bitten by a shark, attacked by a mugger, or anything else ignore the random reality of actual exposure.

If you never go in the water, you will NEVER get bitten by a shark. If you do enter the water, you actually have an equal opportunity of being bitten.

Random violence - where there is no association or motive between the attacker, the act or the victim(s) - is a relatively modern phenomenon and is occuring in some pretty obscure places.

While it's still sound advice and the cornerstone of personal security, staying away from bad people and bad places just isn't enough these days, I'm afraid.

NickA
10-31-2011, 10:52 AM
What I like to tell people (and I think I heard it from Kathy Jackson) is that it's not about the probability of something like that happening, it's about what's at stake if it does happen- namely your life or the life of your loved ones. As unlikely as it is I'm just not willing to give up either to some jackass, especially when I have the option of being prepared.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

JRCHolsters
10-31-2011, 11:20 AM
I agree. Truthfully, if someone is intent on doing you harm, you may not be able to stop it from happening even if you are aware, but what you do when it happens may make a difference. Of course there are no guarantees. My 13 year old daughter carries a very sharp, but legal knife hidden on her person. She has instructions from me, that in the off hand chance she is grabbed by someone and can not stop it from happening, she is to take the first opportunity she has to slice and dice until she has put the person down. She knows where and how to use it. It's not much, but it's all she can do if I am not around to protect her. I feel comfortable knowing she is willing to use it in an extreme condition. All you can do is prepare.

Dropkick
10-31-2011, 11:53 AM
J-
Having lived in NY, and now VA... I think average people have the same degree of "cluelessness" / "It can't happen to me" mentality you mentioned no matter where they live. (With a possible exception being urban areas.)

On the otherhand, I think it's more socially acceptable to own / carry in VA, than it is NY. That's the real difference I've seen between the two states.
-M

PS: Out of curiosity, what kind of knife did you give your daughter?

JRCHolsters
10-31-2011, 12:10 PM
PS: Out of curiosity, what kind of knife did you give your daughter?

She carries a Spyderco Native Lightweight and she has a CRK&T neck knife that she carries sometimes, depending on her outfit.

rjohnson4405
10-31-2011, 12:28 PM
The phrase I heard on some gun forum/website is "it's not the odds, it's the risks."

The odds of you or a loved one being in a violent encounter are very small.

The risks are very big. I'm not willing to play the odds. Some people I've talked to, understand this and are actually willing to play anyway.

Nephrology
10-31-2011, 04:13 PM
While this might be somewhat tangential, I hope that you all do live the same way with your physical health as well.

I hope I do not provoke a firestorm by saying this, but eating healthily and avoiding bad habits (excessive drinking and habitual smoking, being 2 big ones...) will go a long way in cutting you out of the major killers of Americans (congestive heart failure, diabetes & high blood pressure induced kidney disease, to name a few...)

Not to mention that being even marginally physically fit will better prepare you for fight or flight.

TCinVA
10-31-2011, 04:27 PM
I use my gym membership far more than my range membership, I'm afraid...

Dr. No
10-31-2011, 06:43 PM
Being someone who responds to these kinds of calls I will say .... if you look like food, often times you will get eaten.

If it truly is a completely random attack, that is a horrible thing. I would be willing to bet narcotics are involved somehow.

I have made a rule with my wife - No Walmart after dark. Period. The last time I accompanied her on a late night stop a still-tweaking-meth-user walked up on us and asked me to borrow a digital camera. I saw him coming and had my badge exposed and was clearing leather when I told him to get the fuck out of there. He took the hint. Someone else who might have wanted to be nice to the poor troubled man or let him get too close might have had a different experience.

And if you want to talk about probability .... I am always disappointed that these "random" attacks don't find me. :)

JHC
10-31-2011, 07:12 PM
What I like to tell people (and I think I heard it from Kathy Jackson) is that it's not about the probability of something like that happening, it's about what's at stake if it does happen- namely your life or the life of your loved ones. As unlikely as it is I'm just not willing to give up either to some jackass, especially when I have the option of being prepared.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

That is quite a brilliant way to frame it. Thanks.

ubervic
10-31-2011, 07:19 PM
I have made a rule with my wife - No Walmart after dark. Period...
And if you want to talk about probability .... I am always disappointed that these "random" attacks don't find me. :)

I am with you, brother.

I venture into Walmart ONLY to buy their Federal ammo---and only because it is the least expensive that I can source locally. I make my visits there only on weekend mornings or midday. I confess that this is only partly for simple convenience, as I prefer to avoid the numerous, noticeably suspicious folk that seem to congregate and thrive there later in the day/evening.

JRCHolsters
10-31-2011, 08:35 PM
If it truly is a completely random attack, that is a horrible thing. I would be willing to bet narcotics are involved somehow.



It's looking like it was a car jacking and robbery gone wrong. The local authorities believe she was targeted from inside the store. She was stabbed at least 7 times by the Honduran Illegal. The two Mexicans were caught first and turned him in right away.

HeadHunter
11-01-2011, 07:25 AM
The woman parked almost directly beneath a light pole in the middle of the parking lot. The pole also contained surveillance cameras, two which are pointed directly where the woman was stabbed.
Police did review the video.
....
Hess said the extra help was ‘‘invaluable’’ and the Wal-Mart officials were cooperative during the investigation.

I am sure that her murder being videoed was comforting to her family. What people think is so great about video surveillance escapes me.

Small town WalMart parking lots are a magnet for criminals. WalMart doesn't acknowledge this but it's well documented.

MechEng
11-01-2011, 07:41 AM
The problem with a peaceful utopia is while half the people would find it a great place to live; the other half would find it a great place to pillage.

I thought I lived in a nice safe neighborhood in the north part of Arlington with a nice wooded park across the street. Then I started noticing things like every once and awhile a car would be parked, late at night (say 2:00AM) by the park, with shady looking guys sitting in them. Could be just some bored teenagers or…
Went hiking in the park across the street and found used drug needles. Could be some poor diabetic needed their insulin in a hurry or a raccoon pilfered it from someone’s trash or…
My wife always ran around in condition white until I pointed these things out to her.

Shellback
11-01-2011, 03:55 PM
This is a fairly bizarre situation, as this is a sleepy rural area in upstate NY. At the same time, with Rochester and Buffalo 50 miles in either direction, I am surprised something like this hasn't happened sooner. The people have been lulled into a very false sense of security in places like this. Partially it is the small town attitude of "it can't happen here", but a lot of it is the anti gun/self protection stance that most NYS counties have. It is possible to obtain a pistol permit here, but most people don't. When I talk with people about the virtues of getting a permit, the pretty standard response I get is, 'oh, pistols are dangerous and the police can protect me", or 'it's too complicated to get one".

My wife is from upstate NY, outside of Syracuse, and I can tell you the small town she's from is the exact same way. She had the same type of attitude and awareness prior to us dating and living in Vegas. When we travel back to visit her girl friends they are aghast when they hear my wife speak about being not only pro-gun but also supporting concealed carry, being aware of your surroundings and taking personal responsibility for one's safety. Their disbelief is rather amusing when the wifey starts talking about her shooting Glocks and my ARs.

My brother in law is a volunteer firefighter, also an avid fudd hunter, in the same general area and was super proud of his .22 semi-auto he got for concealed carry when he showed me his permit. I asked why he decided to choose that weapon when there were definitely better options out there and he responded with "I've seen more people killed with a .22 than anything else...". After an hour of trying to educate him on caliber, weapon choice, etc. I finally gave up. Sometimes you just can't fix stupid.

As far as people being oblivious I think the vast majority around the SW are in the same boat and we're very gun friendly around here, with the exception of CA. Hard to be aware of your surroundings when you have your head buried in your iPhone.

TCinVA
11-02-2011, 09:40 AM
In yet more "horrific stuff that happened at Wal-Mart" news:

Bum beats elderly man to death with a baseball bat inside a Wal-Mart (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/01/victim-beaten-to-death-with-baseball-bat-at-lakewood-walmart/)

JRCHolsters
11-02-2011, 10:27 AM
In yet more "horrific stuff that happened at Wal-Mart" news:

Bum beats elderly man to death with a baseball bat inside a Wal-Mart (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/01/victim-beaten-to-death-with-baseball-bat-at-lakewood-walmart/)

Just what everyone needs, a string of Walmart violence, just before the holidays.

TCinVA
11-02-2011, 01:21 PM
Lest anyone think this is a phenomenon confined to Wal-Mart:

Man shoots his neighbor, claims he was tired of the neighbor telepathically raping his wife. (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/11/01/20111101utah-telepathic-threat-shooting.html)

...so the moral of the story, folks, is keep your eyes peeled.

Shellback
11-02-2011, 01:26 PM
In yet more "horrific stuff that happened at Wal-Mart" news:

Bum beats elderly man to death with a baseball bat inside a Wal-Mart (http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/11/01/victim-beaten-to-death-with-baseball-bat-at-lakewood-walmart/)

Another homeless guy goes nuts inside Starbucks destroying the place when nobody would give him money either... http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2011/11/01/suspect-in-custody-after-smashing-up-sacramento-starbucks-store/

ToddG
11-02-2011, 01:27 PM
Man shoots his neighbor, claims he was tired of the neighbor telepathically raping his wife. (http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/11/01/20111101utah-telepathic-threat-shooting.html)

From the article:

Police say they found no evidence to prove the allegations.

TCinVA
11-02-2011, 01:44 PM
From the article:

240

WDW
11-02-2011, 04:32 PM
I had some of these type of people (unsure if they were legal or not, but you get my drift) actually sitting on the hood of my car when I left a Wal-Mart once. From a distance of about 15yds, I relatively politely asked them to leave. They said something in espanola, so I told them to FUCKING GET THE FUCK OFF MY FUCKING CAR, they still didn't, I approached them, started lifting up my shirt, and put my hand on the grip of my G19. They left. Not sure if what I did was best, but I used a show of force to end a potentially threatening situation, so I felt I did the best possible thing at the time.

mongooseman
11-02-2011, 05:46 PM
Google "Wal-Mart shootings". I knew about two and was familiar with a local shots fired call in the parking lot (nobody hit). I swear those stores are idjit magnets.

jslaker
11-02-2011, 06:49 PM
Sadly, most of the people I know that carry are as complacent as the ones others are describing.

JDM
11-02-2011, 07:00 PM
To date, the only shooting carried out by a NM CHL holder (If I recall correctly) took place inside of a Wal Mart.

Guy goes into the store and starts hacking his (ex)wife to bits behind the deli counter with a chef's knife. CHL holder shoots knife guy, saves ladies life.

Shellback
11-02-2011, 07:18 PM
To date, the only shooting carried out by a NM CHL holder (If I recall correctly) took place inside of a Wal Mart.

Guy goes into the store and starts hacking his (ex)wife to bits behind the deli counter with a chef's knife. CHL holder shoots knife guy, saves ladies life.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=soZT__WQKsM

We had a Wal-Mart shoot out not too long ago... The officer was very lucky. http://www.fox5vegas.com/story/15425928/vest-saves-officers-life-in-vegas-walmart-shooting

JDM
11-02-2011, 07:26 PM
That's the one. Thanks Irish.

Shellback
11-02-2011, 07:56 PM
That's the one. Thanks Irish.

Anytime :) Maybe it's just me but I think it's kinda cool that the guy was 72 years old, still carrying a weapon and just saved a woman's life.

JDM
11-02-2011, 10:21 PM
Not to mention going 3 for 3 SHO leaning over a counter.

Chuck Haggard
11-03-2011, 12:30 AM
The epic and well documented fight where SGT Marcus Young came back from behind the power curve and killed a really serious scumbag was on a Wal Mart parking lot;

http://discoverpolicing.org/people/index.cfm?fa=detail&id=140

fuse
11-03-2011, 02:55 AM
...and watch out for those telepathically raping neighbors.

Fixed it for you

JFK
11-03-2011, 09:34 AM
To date, the only shooting carried out by a NM CHL holder (If I recall correctly) took place inside of a Wal Mart.

Guy goes into the store and starts hacking his (ex)wife to bits behind the deli counter with a chef's knife. CHL holder shoots knife guy, saves ladies life.

I believe that this woman sued the CHL holder after the fact for loss of income for killing her husband. I will have to search for the follow up.

MechEng
11-03-2011, 02:56 PM
Then there was that Tickle Me Elmo Stampede (http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20143226,00.html) that happened at Wal-Mart.

HeadHunter
11-04-2011, 11:40 AM
I believe that this woman sued the CHL holder after the fact for loss of income for killing her husband. I will have to search for the follow up.
No good deed goes unpunished -- attributed to Clare Boothe Luce

I would love to hear this backstory.

JFK
11-04-2011, 02:11 PM
No good deed goes unpunished -- attributed to Clare Boothe Luce

I would love to hear this backstory.

I have been searching hard for the story but can not seem to find it. If I remember correctly she was very happy at the time that he saved her. About two months after a lawyer must have got a hold of her because she sued for "loss of income" I did not hear anything past that but it was in the local paper here and I can not seem to find it in their archives.