Aftermarket Glock Triggers

[davisj]

I read a few similar threads prior to starting this and couldn't find specifically what I'm looking for, so...

I often read hear and elsewhere in places where informed people comment that Glocks used for defensive/carry purposes should only have OEM triggers (trigger bars, springs and connectors). However, when the topic of ARs comes up many if not most highly recommend Geissele triggers which are obviously aftermarket.

Why the apparent discrepancy? Is it due to Geissele's QC, number of rounds fired through "real world" testing or some other reason? I'm thinking in terms of installing a Zev or Glock Kraft trigger unit in a defensive gun and the often frequent admonition here and elsewhere that OEM is the only way to go and that "gamer triggers" such as Zev and others will get you killed on the streets. If Geissele made Glock triggers would they be acceptable for defensive/carry use?

[Chance]

Trigger weight can lead to some tricky legal issues. I'm not a lawyer, but for instance, a prosecutor could argue that by lightening your trigger, you actually fired accidentally rather than intentionally, which would negate your self-defense claims. Andrew Branca discussed this on an episode of Ballistic Radio (http://ballisticradio.com/2016/04/06/12-not-6-is-still-bad-math-podcast-season-4-ballistic-radio-episode-156-april-3rd-2016/)not too long ago, that's worth a listen.

ETA: Another good place to find info into this rationale is looking into discussions about the LEM trigger, especially length of pull versus weight of pull. That's been debated endlessly here on PF and elsewhere, but here's one such thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot).

[psalms144.1]

Likewise, while many many Glocks get carried for self defense and duty purposes, I'd submit that a relatively small percentage of personally owned ARs with custom triggers see anything but recreational use.

And, FWIW, I wouldn't put a custom trigger into any AR I owned that might be used for HD or duty use. But, I'm inherently VERY conservative on this issue.

[JHC]

While not a technical expert by any stretch, I still surmise that the design of the examples you include have a lot to do with whether aftermarket is viable for self defense or mil use.

The Geissele combat triggers seem thoroughly vetted and of rugged design and best of all, are totally independent of the direct gas induction AR design and BCG.

With aftermarket pistol trigger sets, all manner of springs, connectors or other parts seem to work synergistically in a design envelope for the gun to run.

A shooting friend went full monty Zev on his reliable G34. So far so good. Then added the seductive KKM compensator. Crashed and burned. Back to OEM springs and connector and GTG. Then started gradually adding bits in. Turned out so long as he stayed with the OEM striker spring it appears he has his gun running with the comp.

But where's the road map for such things? There ain't one. Each pistol is going to be a unique combination of tolerance stack.

That's my take from reading folks experiences here and from a few friends experience going heavy aftermarket in Glocks anyway.

I don't have any interest in such tuning so I just leave them OEM and my indulgence is a Glock minus connector. See ball, hit ball.

[SLG]

AR triggers of the defensive/offensive variety are just fine as is. For a recce rifle, I like Geissele triggers, but they are not essential. Either way, they have been tested and used in the military and elsewhere for a number of years, mostly without complaint. My prefered triggers are not the lighter ones, but the 2 stage 4.5# or so versions.

Glock triggers, not so much. We recently tried to issue Zev triggers to our tac guys. No luck, the triggers crapped out. Regardless of who may or may not be using them, they are not up to duty use, imo.

Not to mention, the role/envelope of the two weapons is vastly different.

[GJM]

Two issues:

1) legal

2) function

Not qualified on what the legal implications are, but common sense says the less you have to explain about your firearm the better, especially in a close case that is not clear cut. On function, some after market parts are fine in terms of function, and some after market parts may not function, or even disable an OEM safety function. Most people are not sufficiently sophisticated to know whether their parts compromise reliability and safety.

So, the general recommendation to use OEM parts is probably sound for most people. If you deviate, it doesn't necessarily mean you will die in the food court or go to jail ...... but you just might.

[Jeep]

(1) AR triggers of the defensive/offensive variety are just fine as is.

(2) Glock triggers, not so much. We recently tried to issue Zev triggers to our tac guys. No luck, the triggers crapped out. Regardless of who may or may not be using them, they are not up to duty use, imo.



(1) My experience is that AR triggers vary a lot. Some are 7-8 pounds, and for me that is simply too much for pretty much any use. The Geissele two-stage solves that problem nicely.

(2) I've tried some Zev triggers and for a target pistol only they are fine, and I'm not qualified to speak to LEO duty use, but I have real doubts that they should be used for anything but range use by civilians. They are too light, in my view, for CCW or home defense, and I have a hard time believing that they make a good military trigger.

[VolGrad]

I use the GLOCK (-) connectors in defensive pistols but no replacement parts or springs. I have also sometimes used GHOST connectors if a (-) wasn't available.

Now, that having been said .... I do have a GLOCKTRIGGERS.COM Guardian trigger kit. It used to be in a G19 which I did carry on occasion. It is currently in a box as I didn't have another Gen3 to put it in. This kit uses only OEM parts which have been polished. Could I do this myself .. sure but this was easier (and free). This kit basically puts a new pistol on part with one that has been shot/broken in.

I have several other kits from the same maker in my IDPA guns. I have never had issues with them but wouldn't carry them due to the lighter trigger and reduced pre-travel they give. I wouldn't want that in a carry gun.

[That Guy]

Stupid question: does the fact that AR's have external safeties, but Glocks do not, not enter into this at all?

[JonInWA]

Both in person and anecdotally, the best way that I've consistently observed to move a Glock from "reliable" to "unreliable" to to go the aftermarket parts route. While I'm hardly asserting that Glocks are perfection personified, they tend to work extremely well, both in terms of reliability and durabity either as the come or with Glock OEM parts. When you venture into the realm of aftermarket components...not necessarily so much.

Can aftermarket parts increase performance? Certainly; after all, once you get away from the Glock G17 model, you can make a fairly convincing argument that to a greater or lesser extent, the subsequent models are de facto work-arounds, with the work-arounds necessary to accomplish as much component commonality as possible. This can, and has, resulted in some issues....

However, with the exception of sights, I remain unconvinced that most of the cottage industry replacement components provide increased, or, apparently in many cases, even equal reliability/durability. While they can provide increased performance (which is great for match/game guns), apparently there's a price to be had for such-in many cases, for them to work, and work with any reliability, they'll do so only if if you're a truly experienced and knowledgeable tuner, and understand how to integrate the aftermarket components with the Glock (or have access to someone who has established and proven their competence to do so).

Another potential issue has to do with a paradigm differences between a game/match gun/components and duty/self-defense guns/components. Much of the aftermarket stuff is orientated towards lightening things up to achieve greater speed between splits, which often involves lightening components and/or triggerpull weights-neither which is necessarily desirable in a threat-management gun.

I have a friend, a nationally-known gunwriter, who carries the concept of aftermarket component Glock tuning to some length. And, inevitably, his re-engineering results in a veritable cascade of malfunctions-some simple (caused directly by one specific component substitution) or compound (caused by a domino-like effect with adverse effects resulting from aftermarket parts interaction(s). His guns are indeed very fast, with correspondingly light triggerpulls. Bur at some critical juncture he always seems to come up with creative problems and malfunctions-resulting in taking things back to OEM components, or selling the gun (which he tells me that he restores to OEM component status before selling).

At some point, you really need to objectively assess precisely what it is you're trying to improve by going to aftermarket componentry-and then asking if you can achieve favorable results simply through practice and training with a stock Glock.

While I've personally stayed away from most of them, I think that there are some worthwhile aftermarket components. Recently, I've equipped all of my Glocks with Pierce butt plugs-both to slightly aid in reloads, and to help keep out foreign debris from getting into the action components. I've heard good things about some of LAV's components, especially his magazine floorplates. And, of course, aftermarket sights. And on several of my Glocks, I'm running with the the ubiquitous mountain bike innertube segment to increase receiver grippiness.

Other than that, mine are kept with OEM Glock components. Over the years, I've been very satisfied with tuning mine with various OEM Glock components, such as various triggerbars, connectors, springs. And I still have Glock sights, albeit Glock steel sights, on several of my Glocks-and achieved some credible results with them over the years. My Glocks have remained very, very reliable-which works for me (and is in fact a crucial factor for me and my use) in all of my Glock venues-carry, home defense, IDPA, GSSF and steel plate competitions.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

Stupid question: does the fact that AR's have external safeties, but Glocks do not, not enter into this at all?

It's not a stupid question, but in my opinion it doesn't really significantly enter into the discussion (or my previous answer).

Best, Jon

[Steaz]

That's a good question OP. Such an obvious topic but I am not sure I've read a thread asking that specifically before, that I can remember, on other forums.


Both in person and anecdotally, the best way that I've consistently observed to move a Glock from "reliable" to "unreliable" to to go the aftermarket parts route.

This is what I was going to say ^

The single best way to get a Glock to malfunction is modify it (and/or feed it reloads). Stock Glocks with new factory commercial ammo and Glock (or now Magpul) mags tend to 'just work'.

Geissele FCG's (triggers) in AR type rifles also just work. Also, when it comes to the AR type rifles, just about everybody makes them, because they can. It's not like the parts are either Colt (or Armalite, or Stoner...), or aftermarket; whereas with Glock it's either Glock or it's aftermarket. Along with this, a lot of folks assemble their own AR rifle with parts from all kinds of manufacturers, to the point where this is kind of the norm for 'gun people' or even just do it yourself type people who take a small interest in guns. Not so with Glocks. Almost entirely, the way to have a Glock, is to buy a complete Glock pistol from Glock with all Glock parts, even if you are super high speed low drag, that's probably how your Glock begins its life with you (and even if you get a special one, like a Vickers Glock, it may not have anything done to the trigger). So it would be kind of ridiculous to insist people have, say, an AR FCG that matches the rollmark on their lower. Or would it be one that matches the barrel? Or would it make the FCG...or...would it be suggested to only use an AR for potential defense if the entire thing was purchased complete from a manufacturer and nothing at all was changed? Yeah who is going to do that lol



But really, messing with them is the best way to make them end up not working right

[davisj]

Thanks for the replies. For clarification the only mods to my carry Gen4 G19 are an OEM "-" connector and a Gen3 G17 trigger bar. I prefer the smooth trigger shoe and had a Gen3 trigger bar in my box of parts. I have installed a Ghost connector in my G43 as the OEM was horrendous. I'd gladly install an OEM "-" in the G43 if it were available.

Hypothetically, if Geissele were to get into the Glock trigger bar/shoe business (all factory safeties including length of pull and reset conforming to stock) would this change your calculus if the result were an aluminum trigger shoe where the tab sat flush with the face of the trigger and the only difference in trigger pull was smoother and not lighter?

IMO the fact that an AR has a manual safety does play somewhat into the decision to improve the trigger characteristics with Geissele triggers. I have an SSA and a G2S, both of which I've been happy with. Based on my experience but also with Geissele's track record, if they got into the Glock trigger market I'd consider trying one, at least on a range gun.

[Mr_White]

For me it's less about the possible legal issues, and more about the functional issues. I personally am paranoid about aftermarket fire control parts in Glocks - trigger bars, connectors, trigger housing units, firing pin safeties, firing pins, and some of the involved springs. Ditto OEM parts that have been modified in any way beyond simple polishing and cherry picking. I love the OEM Minus connector, and I don't mind a very modest amount of spring changes.

It just seems absolutely paramount to me that the gun fires when I pull the trigger, only fires ONE time when I pull the trigger, and does not fire when I don't pull the trigger. The fire control parts are central to all of that.

I don't have any studies or data to back this up. It's an issue for me at the emotional level.

[Steaz]

Thanks for the replies. For clarification the only mods to my carry Gen4 G19 are an OEM "-" connector and a Gen3 G17 trigger bar. I prefer the smooth trigger shoe and had a Gen3 trigger bar in my box of parts. I have installed a Ghost connector in my G43 as the OEM was horrendous. I'd gladly install an OEM "-" in the G43 if it were available.

Hypothetically, if Geissele were to get into the Glock trigger bar/shoe business (all factory safeties including length of pull and reset conforming to stock) would this change your calculus if the result were an aluminum trigger shoe where the tab sat flush with the face of the trigger and the only difference in trigger pull was smoother and not lighter?

IMO the fact that an AR has a manual safety does play somewhat into the decision to improve the trigger characteristics with Geissele triggers. I have an SSA and a G2S, both of which I've been happy with. Based on my experience but also with Geissele's track record, if they got into the Glock trigger market I'd consider trying one, at least on a range gun.


For me, the response to the bold, is that if Geissele got into that, and the triggers were used by SOF as well as by a lot of 'in the know' and 'btdt' types, for a period of years, with glowing reviews across the board, and there was an appropriate pull weight/travel (as the only or as a choice) I would at that time change my stance. But that is necessarily years in the distance since it requires years of solid service and repute.

[vcdgrips]

I have been shooting Glocks since 1991. I have been carrying a Gen 3 Glock G35 since 2005. I will take an OEM (-) connector, std trigger return spring and simply drive on.
I confess I have been intrigued by the "straight" trigger craze but I am concerned with reliabilty. I suspect if I was going to take a walk on the wild side I would go with Apex given their engineering skill set exhibited in other applications.

[Jeep]

IMO the fact that an AR has a manual safety does play somewhat into the decision to improve the trigger characteristics with Geissele triggers.

Certainly it does with me. If the AR didn't have a manual safety I would stick with the heavier original trigger. I have seen far too many AD/ND's that come from something happening with a light trigger without a safety (including seeing Glocks with extra special aftermarket triggers decide that they want to become Glcok 18's).

Of course, I am also eagerly awaiting being able to buy Gadgets for my Glocks. Reasonably light triggers, in my opinion, are good things so long as you can apply a safety. They aren't so good without one.

[YVK]

Stupid question: does the fact that AR's have external safeties, but Glocks do not, not enter into this at all?

No, not for me. Holster is a de facto external safety. My Glocks either have that safety on, or they are being fired, or they are unloaded. No loaded pistol left unholstered. ARs either have safety on, or being fired, or unloaded. Don't see much difference.

[JCS]

Trigger weight can lead to some tricky legal issues. I'm not a lawyer, but for instance, a prosecutor could argue that by lightening your trigger, you actually fired accidentally rather than intentionally, which would negate your self-defense claims. Andrew Branca discussed this on an episode of Ballistic Radio (http://ballisticradio.com/2016/04/06/12-not-6-is-still-bad-math-podcast-season-4-ballistic-radio-episode-156-april-3rd-2016/)not too long ago, that's worth a listen.

ETA: Another good place to find info into this rationale is looking into discussions about the LEM trigger, especially length of pull versus weight of pull. That's been debated endlessly here on PF and elsewhere, but here's one such thread (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?9457-Why-I-like-the-LEM-as-a-quot-street-trigger-quot).

I literally changed my carry gun back to stock springs after hearing that podcast. He makes a lot of good points.

Also another interesting point along this topic is: why is it acceptable to put $500-$1000 in a 1911 and carry it but people think it's not okay to put $30 in springs in a Glock. I'm not a 1911 guy so I never knew.

[GJM]

I literally changed my carry gun back to stock springs after hearing that podcast. He makes a lot of good points.

Also another interesting point along this topic is: why is it acceptable to put $500-$1000 in a 1911 and carry it but people think it's not okay to put $30 in springs in a Glock. I'm not a 1911 guy so I never knew.

At the risk of generalizing, you put money into your 1911 to make it reliable, and put money into your Glock to make it not reliable.

[ASH556]

For me it's just wasted money beyond a "-" connector. I used to work for the folks that own Lightning Strike. SJC customs is upstairs and I know those guys well. I've played with an $1,800 factory ZEV gun (or was it Salient?) In any case, I've never felt a trigger from any of them that was markedly better than a shot-in OEM "-" connector setup. The Glock geometry just doesn't allow for it. Now, APEX in an M&P? You betcha! But the trigger/striker works differently there.

[M2CattleCo]

As far as lightening your trigger getting you in a legal bind? I think it's far fetched.

A lawyer friend of mine and I have discussed things to that nature several times and he holds the opinion that if you use the gun in self defense, you're going on trial to decide whether your use of force was justified, not to decide whether or not you modified your gun.

If you get into a situation where an unintentional discharge gets you into the courtroom, then you could be looking at a different scenario.

BUT:

What if you carry a 1911 or an H&K with some concoction of springs, or a Sig with Gray Guns parts, or an M&P with Apex stuff? There is no criteria or standard for what is acceptable pertaining to the viability of your equipment or your competency to use it. Just like there are no rules of engagement.

Your best bet is have a damn good lawyer and deep pockets.

[Up1911Fan]

I don't use any complete aftermarket units, but all my Glock's are set up with a Ghost Evo Elite connector (fitted) with 6 pound trigger and striker springs. I've had no issue's with this set up (aside from one out of spec connector which Ghost promptly replaced) in 4 gun's with roughly 14,000 rounds between them.

[DacoRoman]

I shoot two G19s that got a $.25 polish job and (-) connectors. But then I decided to buy a Hackathorn trigger kit from glocktriggers.com and put that in my training gun, just out of curiosity. The difference isnt earth shattering, that i can tell, but it is cool to have the option to just drop those beautifully polished parts in there, esp if you dont want to mess with a Dremel polish wheel and the Flitz. The Hack kit does come with a .5lb reduced power, 5lb striker spring. Both setups are very smooth and satisfying to me, with a small edge in refinement going to the Hack., which in the end may be due to the slightly reduced power striker spring, as my polish job was effectively done.

I have a gen3 G17 that I kitted out as a competition gun, with my own polish job and a Proctor Zev spring kit that came with a Zev connector. From the kit I used Proctor's "special striker spring", the Zev connector, and I cant remember if I also changed out the firing safety spring. The trigger spring I changed back to stock since the replacement made the take up too mushy. Anyway this trigger set up is so damn good to me that I wanna slap my momma. I only have around 2500 rounds through the gun with no issues except 3 light primer strikes that I got early on with, I think it was Aguilla. I wouldn't use this as a carry set up though.

As has already been pointed out I also think of a good holster as mandatory part of the Glock safety system.

[Steaz]

No, not for me. Holster is a de facto external safety. My Glocks either have that safety on, or they are being fired, or they are unloaded. No loaded pistol left unholstered. ARs either have safety on, or being fired, or unloaded. Don't see much difference.


Yes. I don't know why people think you can compare long guns with manual safeties to pistols with/without...holsters! Handguns go in holsters that cover and protect the trigger and trigger guard!

[HCM]

The comparisons made in the OP are apples to octopus. Long guns with exposed triggers and manual safeties vs handguns carried in holsters.

The 1911 is a century old design from the days when labor was cheap and skilled hand fitting was the norm. As GJM noted, people pay to increase reliability of 1911s, in the case of the trigger, by going to either hand fit tool steel parts or extremely high quality and tolerance tool steel parts like the C&S pre fit hammer and sear kits.

The Geissle AR triggers also use high quality, high precision tool steel parts vs most standard AR parts which are cast. While rare, there are documented cases of GI safeties and and hammers breaking.

No one has yet come up with a "better mousetrap" than Glocks OEM internals. There is only so much you can do with stamped sheet metal.

[GRV]

Some people seem pretty entranced by the whole transversely-flat trigger face thing.

...has anyone tried just taking a dremel to the stock trigger face?

[HCM]

As far as lightening your trigger getting you in a legal bind? I think it's far fetched.

A lawyer friend of mine and I have discussed things to that nature several times and he holds the opinion that if you use the gun in self defense, you're going on trial to decide whether your use of force was justified, not to decide whether or not you modified your gun.

If you get into a situation where an unintentional discharge gets you into the courtroom, then you could be looking at a different scenario.

BUT:

What if you carry a 1911 or an H&K with some concoction of springs, or a Sig with Gray Guns parts, or an M&P with Apex stuff? There is no criteria or standard for what is acceptable pertaining to the viability of your equipment or your competency to use it. Just like there are no rules of engagement.

Your best bet is have a damn good lawyer and deep pockets.

There is a difference liability wise between a professionally designed and built replacement trigger designed for duty use or defensive carry like the DCAEK and a so it yourself bubba trigger job.

There is also a difference between something like a drop in DCAEK and using drop in parts intended for competition only.

[BCrouse]

I have found the Gen4 with a "-" connector and a Gen3 trigger and trigger bar to be most acceptable.

All factory/oem Glock parts.

[Steaz]

Some people seem pretty entranced by the whole transversely-flat trigger face thing.

...has anyone tried just taking a dremel to the stock trigger face?


There may be safety issues with that

[jlw]

There are roughly 18,000 state and local law enforcement agencies in the United States. I can't speak for the crime labs in each of those jurisdictions, but I can comment intelligently on the state crime lab in GA:

They test fire the guns for ballistic tests. If there is a question as to who has been in possession of the gun, they will swab it for DNA.

They are not dissecting the guns to see if there have been any alterations.

I attended armorer school with some Atlanta PD crime techs. They only did function checks if there was a question as to whether or not the firearm was working properly.

Maybe there are crime labs that dissect firearms to the nth degree and examine every little part, but that's not how it is done here.

[secondstoryguy]

As much as I am a slut for aftermarket trigger in S&Ws offerings(read that Apex triggers) I leave stock parts in Glocks.

[GRV]

There may be safety issues with that

Really. Compared to Zevpex D-Lux? Pfff... :rolleyes:

Joking aside, yea, I thought of that. I think if you fully bottom-out the trigger safety and tape it there or whatever while doing the dremeling, the concerns are really minimial. At least minimal enough that I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone try this even though I've seen people do all sorts of other, way riskier bubba'ing to their Glocks.

I'm not claiming it's a good idea, I'm just curious if anyone has tried it.


ETA: I have my own reasons for not doing it, but I'm almost curious enough to buy a spare G19 trigger just to try it and see what happens and what it feels like, even if I don't put it in a gun. FWIW, if anyone else is curious enough to try it, I'd say the serrated 19-style trigger face would be an easier baseline to start off of, as it'll be clearer when you've removed the right amount of material. It goes without saying that you'd probably want to take a little material off the trigger safety to make it sit flush when depressed.

[HCM]

Really. Compared to Zevpex D-Lux? Pfff... :rolleyes:

Joking aside, yea, I thought of that. I think if you fully bottom-out the trigger safety and tape it there or whatever while doing the dremeling, the concerns are really minimial. At least minimal enough that I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone try this even though I've seen people do all sorts of other, way riskier bubba'ing to their Glocks.

I'm not claiming it's a good idea, I'm just curious if anyone has tried it.


ETA: I have my own reasons for not doing it, but I'm almost curious enough to buy a spare G19 trigger just to try it and see what happens and what it feels like, even if I don't put it in a gun. FWIW, if anyone else is curious enough to try it, I'd say the serrated 19-style trigger face would be an easier baseline to start off of, as it'll be clearer when you've removed the right amount of material. It goes without saying that you'd probably want to take a little material off the trigger safety to make it sit flush when depressed.

Or you could just buy the Apex trigger shoe.

Of course you would have to modify all your Glocks. I had the opportunity to shoot a Salient G19 with flat face trigger. Suffice to say im so used to compensating for the standard Glock trigger face I initially pulled rounds to the right.....

[GRV]

Huh, I didn't realize the shoe was offered separately. (Not that one couldn't hack it off themselves.) https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Details/192209

Seems like they don't endorse it on Gen4 trigger bars....weird.


In any event, like I said, it's not something I'm actually planning on doing to my Glock. I care too much about staying attuned to the stock configuration, flaws and all. But, the whole thing has repeatedly piqued my interest as I've battled with various ergonomics issues, so it's among the things I'm more interested in hearing people's experiences with. Very interesting regarding pulling shots right...

[Sasage]

I had a GlockKraft trigger, it was good. Definitely tightened up my groups.

Was it worth $130? Not really IMO.

[Nephrology]

I bought a Glock 35 that came with a ZevTech aftermarket trigger. I shot it for a bit, removed it and replaced with with a smooth OEM unit.

Much happier with how it is now.

[ssb]

I'm moving back to the OEM trigger shoes in my G19s. I had a pair of APEX setups, and while I don't feel that reliability was compromised at all (no malfunctions through ~5,000 rounds between the two) and certainly wouldn't expect that from a manufacturer like APEX, I did not see a quantifiable gain in my performance. The only gain was subjective: the triggers felt better on my finger. I couldn't identify a noticable pre-travel reduction (which is a good thing, and why I went APEX) and the pull weight difference between that and an OEM trigger is minimal. I can't justify equipping all of my pistols with $100 trigger setups for no noticable gain in performance. I'll probably sell them and put the proceeds towards finally buying that G17 I've been wanting.

[Erick Gelhaus]

I split down the middle. I've got two Gen 3 9mm and both of them have Robar's NP3'd OEM triggers et al in them. They're reliable enough through several hundred rounds each. I think they feel cleaner but I could be mistaken. Have not yet gone that route with the duty Glocks.

[JCS]

There are roughly 18,000 state and local law enforcement agencies in the United States. I can't speak for the crime labs in each of those jurisdictions, but I can comment intelligently on the state crime lab in GA:

They test fire the guns for ballistic tests. If there is a question as to who has been in possession of the gun, they will swab it for DNA.

They are not dissecting the guns to see if there have been any alterations.

I attended armorer school with some Atlanta PD crime techs. They only did function checks if there was a question as to whether or not the firearm was working properly.

Maybe there are crime labs that dissect firearms to the nth degree and examine every little part, but that's not how it is done here.

I recently took a class on forensics with the osbi (Oklahoma state bureau of investigation) and they said they test the trigger pull of every single gun they get. He also said that it's the current fad among district attorney's and prosecutors to ask for the trigger pull weight so they now do it on every gun regardless.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Little Creek]

I use Glock (-) connectors in all my standard and large frame Glocks. All my carry Glocks, G19 Gen 4 and G43, have all OEM parts except for the Ghost EDGE connector in the G43s. I have put reduced power safety plunger springs in those Glock pistols I do not carry. I have also put increased power trigger springs in those Glock pistols I do not carry. I understand Stock Glock pistols use 5.5# striker springs in order to fire ammo from all over the world. I have tried a 5# WOLFF spring in a G17 Gen 4 (with a GLOCKTRIGGERS.COM Guardian trigger kit), so far so good. I have tried a 4.5# WOLFF spring in a G35, so far so good. I have not yet tried a 4# striker spring. I always fire ammo made in the USA. I have Ghost EDGE connectors in my G42 and G43 pistols.

[GardoneVT]

Here's a thought exercise.

Bad guy tries to assault you on a deserted city street .You shoot in self defense.

LE arrives. Turns out it was a masked, teenage black girl with a toy gun. BLM gets the story and blows it up online.

Still want your carry Glock to have an aftermarket , lightened trigger?

[Little Creek]

Negligent discharges occur when the basic 4 safety rules are ignored. If your finger is on the trigger when you don't intend to shoot, then what difference does the weight of the trigger pull make. Many Federal, State, and local government agencies do not use Stock Glock Triggers (5.5# I think). They spec their own trigger weight or connector and the manafacturor has to bid the contract that way, if they want to win it. All things being equal, is it easier to manage a lighter trigger as opposed to a heavier trigger? There are expert witnesses on both sides of the argument.

[Steaz]

Here's a thought exercise.

Bad guy tries to assault you on a deserted city street .You shoot in self defense.

LE arrives. Turns out it was a masked, teenage black girl with a toy gun. BLM gets the story and blows it up online.

Still want your carry Glock to have an aftermarket , lightened trigger?

Don't care/doesn't matter, I didn't shoot her negligently by pulling the trigger when I didn't want to

[VolGrad]

Still want your carry Glock to have an aftermarket , lightened trigger?

I honestly don't think that would matter one bit. What's done is done. You are already up the creek ....

[JCS]

Here's a thought exercise.

Bad guy tries to assault you on a deserted city street .You shoot in self defense.

LE arrives. Turns out it was a masked, teenage black girl with a toy gun. BLM gets the story and blows it up online.

Still want your carry Glock to have an aftermarket , lightened trigger?

Come on. That's never going to happen to me.

Jk. Totally agree!


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[HopetonBrown]

Here's a thought exercise.

Bad guy tries to assault you on a deserted city street .You shoot in self defense.

LE arrives. Turns out it was a masked, teenage black girl with a toy gun. BLM gets the story and blows it up online.

Still want your carry Glock to have an aftermarket , lightened trigger?

Here's another thought exercise. Do you know of any cases where a lightened trigger came into play at trial? I don't recall reading about a lightened trigger in a shooting. And I read about shootings in the news every day. I do remember reading about Officer Liang's heavier (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/03/peter-liang-police-shooting/471687/) trigger on his Glock, though.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

Here's another thought exercise. Do you know of any cases where a lightened trigger came into play at trial? I don't recall reading about a lightened trigger in a shooting. And I read about shootings in the news every day. I do remember reading about Officer Liang's heavier (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/03/peter-liang-police-shooting/471687/) trigger on his Glock, though.

From the article:

The NYPD’s Glock has more than twice the trigger resistance of the model sold to the public. The trigger also has what Glock calls its Safe Action System, an extra button designed to keep the gun “always safe and always ready”—free from the sort of accidental slip of the finger that Liang described. After clicking and pulling it themselves, jurors decided that Liang had lied. “It was very hard to pull the trigger,” Screen said. After that, “we knew his testimony wasn’t completely true.”

My take on aftermarket triggers in carry guns:

1) It's all fun and games until your weapon in evidence in a trial.
2) Don't do things to firearms that
a) the manufacturer deems unsafe;
b) does not have a preponderance of well respected authorities endorsing same;
c) that raises known safety issues.
3) Do not get involved in things that do not involve you.

The trigger issue is centered around negligence as a way to defeat a claim of self defense. Self defense is a justification defense to conduct that is a criminal act (justified under the circumstances making it self defense).

A lightened trigger or modifications that give rise to the possibility of unintended discharges acts to open the door to an accusation of negligence with can undercut a claim of self defense.

You cannot use a justification defense to an action you did not intend.

Thus, avoid the issue by either keeping the gun stock or using only modification that are factory approved or have a preponderance of well respected authorities endorsing same.

[HopetonBrown]

Are there court cases where this has been an issue?

Dave Spaulding has said that he doesn't see a lightened trigger as an issue in court.

Don't we lighten triggers so we are less likely to miss? Isn't not missing a good thing?

I hear that lightened triggers on serious guns is a bad thing, but I never read about them being an issue in a court case.

[JR1572]

We had a guy down here have a ND on duty which resulted in death. There was an aftermarket trigger in the Glock. It was discussed by LSP972 and others on here. I'll try to find a link.

JR1572

[JR1572]

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?t=19698

Here's the link.

JR1572

[JCS]

Here's ayoob on the topic
http://smith-wessonforum.com/concealed-carry-self-defense/419191-facts-about-light-trigger-pull-liability.html



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[HCM]

Here's another thought exercise. Do you know of any cases where a lightened trigger came into play at trial? I don't recall reading about a lightened trigger in a shooting. And I read about shootings in the news every day. I do remember reading about Officer Liang's heavier (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2016/03/peter-liang-police-shooting/471687/) trigger on his Glock, though.

More Ayoob:

https://americanhandgunner.com/unintended-shot-the-santibanes-incident/


However, what many people missed, including Sgt. Williams, was these guns were listed in the Glock catalog and website under “sport” — not “duty” or “self-defense.” It has always been Glock’s policy when police departments order these guns, they’ll be shipped with the standard 51/2-pound connector.

In reviewing Sgt. Williams’ deposition by an aggressive plaintiff’s lawyer, I couldn’t help but notice the plaintiff’s attorney always called it “31/2 pounds,” the original designation, which it did in fact measure on earlier models when measurement was taken from the toe, or bottom, of the pivoting trigger. Sgt. Williams, correctly I think, always called it “41/2 pounds,” which is what it measures from the center of the trigger, where the finger actually lies. It’s a leverage thing: both are technically correct. However, while Glock later changed the designation from 31/2 to 41/2, it’s the exact same part, and still forbidden by Glock for duty/self-defense pistols.

Williams doesn’t recall being given this warning in a Glock armorer’s class. I have no reason to doubt him. While most Glock armorers do remember it, some I’ve talked to don’t. It may be their particular instructor/trainer simply left it out, or it may be what adult education teachers tell us: We only remember a small percentage of what we hear in a class, as opposed to what we feel and experience. The 51/2-pound minimum pull weight for duty/defense Glocks remains nonetheless in company policy, and the policy carries incredibly powerful weight in court when opposing counsel is trying to show that you are negligent.

[orionz06]

How is trigger on Ayoob's 1911? Surely it's not shit.


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[NickDrak]

In my opinion it boils down to this....

If you have a "bad" shooting which can be attributed to a (partially or completely) modified/non-stock trigger in whichever pistol you carry, the modified trigger WILL come into play to some extent in both criminal and civil litigation.

If you have a highly modified pistol and you are involved in a "good" completely justified shooting, the modifications won't make any difference. The family of the bad guy you shot may try to file a civil lawsuit against you in the end, but they would likely do the same even if your pistol is bone stock.

[TAZ]

Not sure I completely buy the argument that having an aftermarket trigger in any gun can lead to liability in a good shooting. Good shooting defined as you intended to shoot the guy who you can articulate posed an immediate threat of death or serious injury. NDs or bad shootings I can see how more liability can be asserted against those with modified guns. I can see the argument if you hadn't dropped the pull weight to 3# you may have had better control... But I think you'd need to prove it was a bad shoot first.

If we were to accept that anything better than out of the box is a liability what happens after 100000000 dry fire reps that have polished the parts, worn springs and dropped pull weight a bit. How is that different from a polished kit for say Glockparts? Do we have to monthly order poorly stamped and finished items from Glock so we can keep the triggers as horrific as when we pick up our guns???

[JCS]

In my opinion it boils down to this....

If you have a "bad" shooting which can be attributed to a (partially or completely) modified/non-stock trigger in whichever pistol you carry, the modified trigger WILL come into play to some extent in both criminal and civil litigation.

If you have a highly modified pistol and you are involved in a "good" completely justified shooting, the modifications won't make any difference. The family of the bad guy you shot may try to file a civil lawsuit against you in the end, but they would likely do the same even if your pistol is bone stock.

Go check out the podcast listed earlier from ballistic radio. It addresses the whole "good shoot" myth. Very eye opening.


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[davisj]

We can argue "good shoot...bad shoot" and the implications of after-market or reduced weight triggers all day but the reality is further discussion on this point is harping on a trifle because THE LAW IS SUBJECTIVE. Hence venue shopping, prosecutorial discretion and the need for lawyers in general.

My original question concerned after-market trigger reliability in terms of a hypothetical Geiselle Glock trigger or other known quality manufacturer. IMO the debate about "good shoot...bad shoot" and after-market components is similar to the 9mm v. 45 debate. ;)

[DacoRoman]

Can one of you pistolero cats please remind me of what the total pull weight of an OEM glock gen 3 trigger with stock connector and then with a (-) connector is? Thanks

[HCM]

How is trigger on Ayoob's 1911? Surely it's not shit.


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1911 has a manual safety, which is supposed to stay on until you've made a decision to fire. Also has a much shorter pull, a different animal than a Glock.

Ayoob has also recommended minimum pull weights on 1911's of 4 to 5 lbs for years.

Think of an M&P with a DCAEK vs an M&P with a FSS - I would only want an FSS kit with the manual thumb safety.

[SLG]

1911 has a manual safety, which is supposed to stay on until you've made a decision to fire. Also has a much shorter pull, a different animal than a Glock.

Ayoob has also recommended minimum pull weights on 1911's of 4 to 5 lbs for years.

Think of an M&P with a DCAEK vs an M&P with a FSS - I would only want an FSS kit with the manual thumb safety.

At one point, Mas had a 7# rolling trigger put in his Lauck LFI 1911. I would love to shoot that gun sometime.

[JBP55]

Can one of you pistolero cats please remind me of what the total pull weight of an OEM glock gen 3 trigger with stock connector and then with a (-) connector is? Thanks

Gen 3 with OEM trigger should be in the 5.5# range and a Glock minus connector should reduce the trigger pull approximately 1#.

[Sigfan26]

Can one of you pistolero cats please remind me of what the total pull weight of an OEM glock gen 3 trigger with stock connector and then with a (-) connector is? Thanks

Per my armorers manual, a minus connector with 24N (standard striker spring) and OEM return spring nets a pull weight of 4.3#-6.5# pull

[DacoRoman]

Thanks guys.

So if a stock set up with a minus connector gives a 5 to 5 1/2# trigger pull, is one out of the hypothetical liability danger zone? What is the purported safe minimum trigger weight anyway? With a 1911 a 4# pull is usually suggested, right?

I'm also thinking that short of a NY-1 spring (which may be too heavy, it is for my tastes), if one is using a minus connector, a lighter S trigger spring (as you know a heavier trigger spring lightens the pull; please correct me if Im wrong) should/may help put one in the #5.5 or even #6lb range if that's the magic number (but still keep more of a rolling break). I realize that there may not be a magic number and it may be something simply to be exploited by a damned lawyer based on the fact that parts were changed period. Ultimately I can get used to the stock 5.5# connector again, and this thread has gotten me thinking about trying it again, kicking and screaming a little.

[Sigfan26]

Thanks guys.

So if a stock set up with a minus connector gives a 5 to 5 1/2# trigger pull, is one out of the hypothetical liability danger zone? What is the purported safe minimum trigger weight? I'm also thinking that short of a NY-1 spring (which may be too heavy, it is for my tastes), if one is using a minus connector, a lighter S trigger spring (as you know a heavier trigger spring lightens the pull; please correct me if Im wrong) should/may help put one in the #5.5 or even #6lb range if that's the magic number (but still keep more of a rolling break). I realize that there may not be a magic number and it may be something simply to be exploited by a damned lawyer based on the fact that parts were changed period. Ultimately I can get used to the stock 5.5# connector again, and this thread has gotten me thinking about trying it again, kicking and screaming a little.

I saw the pull weights, and I was like "Damn, that's not that light". The reliability of the system, to me should be the concern. I carry 1911s with trigger pulls lighter than that (factory). My Glock has a "Dot" connector, simply because I prefer how it feels. I would have no issues carrying a "-" connector. Would I say that everyone should us one? No! Many folks should focus on shooting well in the first place before they strive to solve a software problem with hardware solution . This applies to the NY spring too.

[Steaz]

Thanks guys.

So if a stock set up with a minus connector gives a 5 to 5 1/2# trigger pull, is one out of the hypothetical liability danger zone? What is the purported safe minimum trigger weight anyway? With a 1911 a 4# pull is usually suggested, right?

I'm also thinking that short of a NY-1 spring (which may be too heavy, it is for my tastes), if one is using a minus connector, a lighter S trigger spring (as you know a heavier trigger spring lightens the pull; please correct me if Im wrong) should/may help put one in the #5.5 or even #6lb range if that's the magic number (but still keep more of a rolling break). I realize that there may not be a magic number and it may be something simply to be exploited by a damned lawyer based on the fact that parts were changed period. Ultimately I can get used to the stock 5.5# connector again, and this thread has gotten me thinking about trying it again, kicking and screaming a little.

If you read the link to Ayoob writing on this topic that was provided earlier in the thread, you will see write that modifying the trigger from stock is more the issue. Lightening it vs the mass produced factory standard is more significant than making up a number at which it might be more contentious an issue.