Muzzle Sweep double standard?

[warpedcamshaft]

Looking for some thoughtful discussion:

When a semi-automatic handgun is locked open via a slide lock/release, is it acceptable to muzzle sweep your hands/body parts and/or other people.

I'm seeing quite a bit of gun handling where people treat a locked open semi-auto with a different set of handling rules.

[HopetonBrown]

If it's real steel I strive to never laser any part of anyone, whether loaded, empty, slide locked back, etc. Blue guns I try not to laser unless necessary for the demonstration.

[breakingtime91]

If it's real steel I strive to never laser any part of anyone, whether loaded, empty, slide locked back, etc. Blue guns I try not to laser unless necessary for the demonstration.

same.

[Wondering Beard]

If it's real steel I strive to never laser any part of anyone, whether loaded, empty, slide locked back, etc. Blue guns I try not to laser unless necessary for the demonstration.

+1

[rob_s]

If it's real steel I strive to never laser any part of anyone, whether loaded, empty, slide locked back, etc. Blue guns I try not to laser unless necessary for the demonstration.

/thread

[psalms144.1]

Rule 1 "Treat every weapon as if it were loaded"

Doesn't say "unless it's slide locked"

I've seen this same trend with a lot of trainers, not to mention students. It's the reason why, when I'm on the line instructing, my live pistol is in my range bag, and I have a SIRT in my holster.

[SLG]

I also treat sims guns exactly the same way. Never means never, not just when you want.

[nycnoob]

I also treat sims guns exactly the same way. Never means never, not just when you want.

But Why? The gun can not fire.
It condition is inoperable similar to a blue gun.

What about a pistol with a chamber flag?

What if you took the slide off the pistol can you point the frame at people? or does
"never" apply here as well (I interpret a disassembled gun as "gun parts" and not
subject to the safety rules) but is this really different than the above?

I know that Tom Givens has often said "if you want to do anything else
(other than shoot the gun) you must clear it first". I do not want to put
words into his mouth but I interprets this as "all guns are always loaded . . . until
you clear it" because clearly he is treating a recently cleared gun a bit differently
than one he just picked up.

I am would be interested to get his take on this question as the gun is "obviously clear"
and yet this does appear to be a violation.

These safety rules drive me crazy. People get wrapped up on the exact wording that
Cooper used but there seems to be a whole bunch of edge cases that are not clear if
the particular wording was intended to cover. The implications of these rules is far
from obvious and yet everyone seems to believe that if you "follow the rules"
(which has to be your understanding of the rules) you will be "safe".

Actually my understanding of the first rule from reading some Coopers Commentary
on Isreali carry, is that he intended it to include "you should keep your pistols always
loaded (and on your person, Because they are useless otherwise)". So I would actually
argue that the rule should imply not hanging around with the slide locked open as
this is not a useful position for the gun to be in. . . . except if you are going to do
some administrative action (run a bore snake through the barrel) then it becomes
a question of how to tug that tight snake through the barrel and keep it down range
the whole time (as SLG suggests).

What about slide lock reloads? Most of the people I see doing these
keep their muzzle over the berm. This is not a safe direction. Not only
could people over the berm be killed if there was an ND but the range
would most certainly be shut down. I never got a good explanation
for this exception to the safety rules, though I grilled TLG about it
for about 15 minutes the first time we met.

[Wheeler]

That's a weak excuse for piss poor gun handling.

[nycnoob]

That's a weak excuse for piss poor gun handling.

Are you talking to me?

I have not had any instructor say my gun handling is poor.
However after 5 years of study I still do not know what the 4 rules mean.
Please explain them to me. I wrote enough that my position should be
clear, though I am not sure where you stand.

[joshs]

But Why? The gun can not fire.
It condition is inoperable similar to a blue gun.

What about a pistol with a chamber flag?

What if you took the slide off the pistol can you point the frame at people? or does
"never" apply here as well (I interpret a disassembled gun as "gun parts" and not
subject to the safety rules) but is this really different than the above?

I know that Tom Givens has often said "if you want to do anything else
(other than shoot the gun) you must clear it first". I do not want to put
words into his mouth but I interprets this as "all guns are always loaded . . . until
you clear it" because clearly he is treating a recently cleared gun a bit differently
than one he just picked up.

I am would be interested to get his take on this question as the gun is "obviously clear"
and yet this does appear to be a violation.

These safety rules drive me crazy. People get wrapped up on the exact wording that
Cooper used but there seems to be a whole bunch of edge cases that are not clear if
the particular wording was intended to cover. The implications of these rules is far
from obvious and yet everyone seems to believe that if you "follow the rules"
(which has to be your understanding of the rules) you will be "safe".

Actually my understanding of the first rule from reading some Coopers Commentary
on Isreali carry, is that he intended it to include "you should keep your pistols always
loaded (and on your person, Because they are useless otherwise)". So I would actually
argue that the rule should imply not hanging around with the slide locked open as
this is not a useful position for the gun to be in. . . . except if you are going to do
some administrative action (run a bore snake through the barrel) then it becomes
a question of how to tug that tight snake through the barrel and keep it down range
the whole time (as SLG suggests).

What about slide lock reloads? Most of the people I see doing these
keep their muzzle over the berm. This is not a safe direction. Not only
could people over the berm be killed if there was an ND but the range
would most certainly be shut down. I never got a good explanation
for this exception to the safety rules, though I grilled TLG about it
for about 15 minutes the first time we met.

Exercising control over muzzle direction is simply forming good habits. I believe that's why everyone else who responded in this thread mentioned practicing good muzzle control even when using firearm simulators. This continues the build the good habit of never pointing anything that feels like a firearm at a person unless you make the conscious choice to do so.

Muzzle control also acts as a signaling device to others. When I see someone using good muzzle control with an unloaded real gun, blue gun, or sim gun, I personally feel much better about being in the vicinity of that person while they are handling a firearm.

As for reloads with the muzzle over the berm, this has nothing to do with the gun being at slide-lock. "Up" is generally considered a safe direction unless you have reason to believe that it isn't. If you go to a USPSA match, you will see nearly every shooter with their muzzles over the berm while doing in-battery reloads.

Muzzle up wouldn't be a ready position if it was considered unsafe to generally use "up" as a safe direction. Personally, I've seen more rounds leave ranges from skipping off the range floor than being directly fired over a berm, which would also preclude low ready if the primary concern was the possibility of a projectile leaving the range due to an unintentional discharge.

[BillSWPA]

But Why? The gun can not fire.
It condition is inoperable similar to a blue gun.

What about a pistol with a chamber flag?

What if you took the slide off the pistol can you point the frame at people? or does
"never" apply here as well (I interpret a disassembled gun as "gun parts" and not
subject to the safety rules) but is this really different than the above?

I know that Tom Givens has often said "if you want to do anything else
(other than shoot the gun) you must clear it first". I do not want to put
words into his mouth but I interprets this as "all guns are always loaded . . . until
you clear it" because clearly he is treating a recently cleared gun a bit differently
than one he just picked up.

I am would be interested to get his take on this question as the gun is "obviously clear"
and yet this does appear to be a violation.

These safety rules drive me crazy. People get wrapped up on the exact wording that
Cooper used but there seems to be a whole bunch of edge cases that are not clear if
the particular wording was intended to cover. The implications of these rules is far
from obvious and yet everyone seems to believe that if you "follow the rules"
(which has to be your understanding of the rules) you will be "safe".

Actually my understanding of the first rule from reading some Coopers Commentary
on Isreali carry, is that he intended it to include "you should keep your pistols always
loaded (and on your person, Because they are useless otherwise)". So I would actually
argue that the rule should imply not hanging around with the slide locked open as
this is not a useful position for the gun to be in. . . . except if you are going to do
some administrative action (run a bore snake through the barrel) then it becomes
a question of how to tug that tight snake through the barrel and keep it down range
the whole time (as SLG suggests).

What about slide lock reloads? Most of the people I see doing these
keep their muzzle over the berm. This is not a safe direction. Not only
could people over the berm be killed if there was an ND but the range
would most certainly be shut down. I never got a good explanation
for this exception to the safety rules, though I grilled TLG about it
for about 15 minutes the first time we met.

The rules are set up so that violating one will not result in injury or death, just possible embarrassment. Violate more than one, and now injury or death is being risked.

I have seen multiple instances of someone believing a gun was safe when in fact it was not. I have also read about people being shot by guns that the handler thought were unloaded.

Never allowing the muzzle to cover anyone, even when the slide is back, reinforces good gun handling habits and keeps everyone safe.

The two most common causes of accidents are ignorance and complacency. Avoid both at all times.

[GJM]

How about shooting blanks at an Apache helicopter, in a military exercise, and getting live rounds mixed in:


http://www.theolympian.com/news/nation-world/national/article78515897.html


Sent from my iPad

[BillSWPA]

Are you talking to me?

I have not had any instructor say my gun handling is poor.
However after 5 years of study I still do not know what the 4 rules mean.
Please explain them to me. I wrote enough that my position should be
clear, though I am not sure where you stand.

If a solid understanding of those rules was not the first thing conveyed by your instructors, then I respectfully suggest that you did not have the right instructors.

[rob_s]

There is a lot of butt-hurt and gun-hipstering of Cooper's Rules. I frankly don't get it. Mostly it comes from guys that either (a) never understood the rules to begin with (b) think they can say the same thing, better, with different words, or (c) are simply looking to make a name for themselves. Most often it appears to be all three.

Don't fucking point guns at people unless they are trying to harm or kill you or someone else.

How's that for re-writing the rules?

I've been around a lot of people that think there are grey areas, edges, exceptions, etc. I don't agree with those people, and prefer not to be around them at all, let alone when they are in possession of a firearm.

How you treat sims guns, airsoft guns, and blue guns is ultimately a good indicator of how you will treat the real thing. YMMV etc.

[MDS]

I have not had any instructor say my gun handling is poor.
However after 5 years of study I still do not know what the 4 rules mean.
Please explain them to me. I wrote enough that my position should be
clear, though I am not sure where you stand.

Not Wheeler, but the explanation is pretty simple. Notice the first, best answer to the OP (red font mine) :


If it's real steel I strive to never laser any part of anyone, whether loaded, empty, slide locked back, etc. Blue guns I try not to laser unless necessary for the demonstration.

Think of the 4 rules kind of like the 10 Commandments. No one can possibly live up to them perfectly 100% of the time. But the clear tendency is that better the shooter - the more thoughtfully and practically experienced with violent gun use - the more likely she is to follow the rules more closely, more of the time. When you violate them, you should feel like a dirty sinner, washed clean only by the combination of grace and repentance and an honest attempt to follow the rules from now on. There's honest debate about whether to muzzle no-shoots on game stages, for crying out loud! By participating in a debate like that, by honestly thinking about the corner cases you mention, you can continue to evolve into an ever-better shooter - more dangerous to anyone attacking you and less dangerous to yourself as well as your friends, family, teammates, fellow range-goers, and innocent bystanders.

In other words, IMO, getting "wrapped up in the exact wording" isn't supposed to yield simple easy answers to all the corner cases you might come across. But thinking through how to do your manipulations in a way that is most compatible with the 4 rules is a good exercise to develop and strengthen good handling habits and safety intuitions. One often finds that when the 4 rules seem unclear or complex, that it's really just something about ourselves that makes them that way - our laziness or our sense that they can be goofy or prudish at times.

Safe gun handling ain't rocket surgery. It just takes a commitment to safe handling, even when it feels "goofy." Following the Four Rules - and, when they seem complicated, meditating on them until they're simple again - is a great, time-tested way of honoring that commitment.

[BJXDS]

I don't agree with "Different Handling Rules"

Not to complicate the original post, but a properly flagged/disabled training gun may be different.

[jiminycricket]

I assume we're talking about a slide-locked pistol with the magazine removed and after being doubled/tripled checked to be clear?

Muzzle others? Heck no. That's what blue guns are for if a particular demonstration demands such flagging.
Muzzle myself? I'd be lying if I said I never muzzled my hand while using a bore-snake. What then of revolvers too when cleaning?

[rwa]

But Why? The gun can not fire. Until you drop the slide... As the range master for our local range, if you were to handle a firearm with the slide locked back while other shooters were downrange, you would be "selective tresspassed" by local law enforcement and not be welcome back.

[Sterling Archer]

As already stated it's about developing habits. Good habits with an unloaded gun build and reinforce good habits with a loaded gun.

If, for example, I'm talking to a person who inadvertently muzzle sweeps my hand with a slide locked gun I'll let it slide. If any body areas are swept I'll make a small comment or hand gesture to point out my discomfort, which is usually all that's needed. However, if at any point a muzzle winds up in my face (slide lock, empty chamber indicator, I don't care) someone is most likely getting a broken finger/nose from me taking the pistol away.

[SLG]

But Why? The gun can not fire.
It condition is inoperable similar to a blue gun.

What about a pistol with a chamber flag?

What if you took the slide off the pistol can you point the frame at people? or does
"never" apply here as well (I interpret a disassembled gun as "gun parts" and not
subject to the safety rules) but is this really different than the above?


There have been some good answers given already.

Sims guns do shoot. They fire simunitions. I have seen life altering injuries arise from poorly handled sims guns. I also treat blue guns, red guns and any other kind of gun the same way, unless it really is an inert object, incapable of shooting anything, and I need to demo or train something (like weapons retention). Anything that looks like a gun, feels like a gun, acts like a gun, or is called a gun, gets handled like a gun as much as possible.

Guns with chamber flags are just guns. See above.

Disassembled guns have no training value for me, so I don't "point" frames at people. If it is really just a frame though, it may be legally called a gun, but it is absolutely incapable of harm. If I need to point it somewhere other than at a berm (like for cleaning) so be it.

On the subject of berms/reloads/safety... There are no safe places in the world to point guns, just safer places. Sometimes that means at the bad guy. Sometimes it means a berm. Sometimes it means the ground, or the air. Every place you point a gun is a balance of risks. Sometimes the risk is very low. Sometimes not so much. I could talk about gun safety vis a vis the 4 rules for hours. Literally. It is of great interest to me. The best place to start is Cooper's 4 rules. Don't alter them to fit your ideas, just memorize them and then think about them.

One example. "All guns are always loaded." If you believe that, and act accordingly, you can never have an accident due to a misunderstanding of the guns condition. It doesn't say "treat all guns...", or "act like", or "pretend", or "unless triple checked", or "verified empty". All guns are always loaded. Mine are. In 34 years of shooting, and 20 years of using guns in the real world, I have not had an ND or AD. I intend to keep it that way. Being cute with the rules will not allow that.

[SAWBONES]

[Rant mode on]

Just an aside.
This kind of issue comes up over and over on gun-related BBs.

It's been my observation that there is a lot of superstitious nonsense talked about the Four Rules, particularly Rule 2. The Four Rules are pithy, easy-to-remember guides, after all, they're not the Ten Commandments.

Certainly we should strive always to handle firearms responsibly, circumspectly and safely, though such handling can never be completely and utterly "safe", nor is it always possible to obey Rule 2 in the manner which some suggest and assert that they do.

Do you obey Rule 2 when your gun is being carried on your hip or AIWB?
Obviously not. The muzzle points at various things, repeatedly, most of which you certainly would not be willing to "see destroyed"!

Is Rule 2 obeyed during gun cleaning, gun storage and other aspects of administrative gun handling? Obviously not always.

"Administrative" gun-handling (examples of which include cleaning, storage, and I would add carrying) does not, indeed cannot always and at all times follow Rule 2.

As regards handling a sidearm in slidelock, or handling even a SIRT pistol or a "blue gun", I believe it's simply a good habit to have trained oneself to be sufficiently mindful of "muzzle consciousness" being maintained whenever a sidearm (or sidearm substitute) regardless of type, is in the hand, that you adhere to Rule 2.

Still, I have to admit I'm sometimes annoyed by the priggish and pretended "firearms moral high ground" :p sort of attitude that seems to get so frequently displayed by many of the supposedly "gun-wise" folks who post on BBs and argue in gun shops (current company excluded) about Rule 2.

The point, after all, is to remain aware of what you are doing with respect to firearms-handling, and also to have so ingrained good handling habits that even if a lapse of one's concentration occurs, safe handling is maintained.

Lest anyone accuse me of being cavalier about gun safety and Col. Cooper's primary directives, I even (unconsciously) take care not to touch the trigger of the Windex spray bottle when I pick it up to clean my car windows. :o

[/Rant mode off]

[warpedcamshaft]

I've seen this multiple times recently.

1: A middle aged man walks into the range with a locked open Glock 43 like he is holding a damn cellphone instead of a gun. Totally flippant gun handling. He is pointing it at his torso, and then another individual on the range.
2: A young man takes a handgun out of a case, locked open, and walks to the range stall after muzzling his hand and feet.
3: A gun store employee locks a handgun open, and then muzzles their hand while showing it to a patron.
4: A young man unholsters his Glock, unloads and locks it open, and holds it up to show a part on the gun while pointing it at his hand.

What level of reprimand is appropriate from a fellow patron or public range go-er?

In my mind... these people have 2 sets of gun handling rules. One for a "loaded gun" and one for an "unloaded gun." All it takes is one mental mistake in regards to what condition the gun is in to cause an injury or death at that point. Aside from suicide, no one purposely shoots themselves with a "loaded gun." Often the first thing said after an accidental discharge is "I thought it was unloaded".

[JHC]

How about shooting blanks at an Apache helicopter, in a military exercise, and getting live rounds mixed in:


http://www.theolympian.com/news/nation-world/national/article78515897.html


Sent from my iPad

Sumbitch can sure shoot though.

[Wheeler]

Are you talking to me?

I have not had any instructor say my gun handling is poor.
However after 5 years of study I still do not know what the 4 rules mean.
Please explain them to me. I wrote enough that my position should be
clear, though I am not sure where you stand.

I was not. I was referring to the question asked in the original post. I think our comments overlapped.

I haven't read all the other comments so I'm probably covering ground already plowed but I will answer your question about the four rules.

1TREAT ALL GUNS AS IF THEY WERE LOADED.
If you do this without fail then you'll never have to worry if it's loaded or not.

2.NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY.
In the event of a negligent discharge this assures the bullet will strike something expendable rather than a person, computer, tv, vehicle, et cetera.

3.KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET.
If your sights are on target then you should be aware of what your shooting at and be making the conscious decision to press the trigger. This builds upon rule 2 that you are actually aiming at something you are willing to put a bullet hole in.

4.BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT'S BEHIND IT.
Again this builds on the other rules that not only have you decided that whatever you're pointing your gun at deserves a bullet but in the probable case that the bullet will pass through the target there isn't anything or anyone behind it that will be in danger of being struck.

[Sterling Archer]

Someone has to post it...


https://youtu.be/eP6UvNgbqIA

[Sterling Archer]

Watch how many times this guy breaks all the rules with an un(loaded) gun.


https://youtu.be/KUonA66btgI

[JAD]

The Gunsite safety rules are:
1: all guns are always loaded
2: never let the muzzle cover anything which you are not willing to destroy
3: keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target
4: always be sure of your target

There has been some alternate wording posted in this thread. This is the version I use. Every word is important, although I probably would prefer 'that' to 'which.'

[GJM]

One example. "All guns are always loaded." If you believe that, and act accordingly, you can never have an accident due to a misunderstanding of the guns condition. It doesn't say "treat all guns...", or "act like", or "pretend", or "unless triple checked", or "verified empty". All guns are always loaded. Mine are. In 34 years of shooting, and 20 years of using guns in the real world, I have not had an ND or AD. I intend to keep it that way. Being cute with the rules will not allow that.

How do you dry fire off a shooting range?

[psalms144.1]

I've related the story before, but I have seen the results of BAD HABITS. To whit, service members in combat who constantly (some would say obsessively) have to clear their weapons, who then decide it's OK to practice "disarms" with real live pistols. This progressed to one service member in specific initiating these "training sessions" by drawing and pointing his pistol at other service members. Which progressed to drawing, pointing, and dry firing. Anyone guess where this is going? You betcha, eventually he drew, pointed and fired his LOADED pistol at another service member, striking the victim in the head, resulting in the victim losing an eye (amongst other significant and lifelong injuries).

Yes, EVERYONE makes mistakes. Sometimes we finger check when we don't think we are, or haven't made the conscious decision to shoot. But, if you're following Rule 1 & 2, and get the unexpected LOUD NOISE, the only thing hurt will be your pride. F' around with 1 & 2, then 3; and the results can be a LOT more dramatic.

Like SLG, I've seen what a Simunition round can do to unprotected skin, and seen what happens when someone catches one to the eye. I also personally know a former police officer who shot his best friend dead at Sim training, because of some f'in around that led the officer to forget they hadn't converted from live guns to Sim kits, and shot his life long best friend between the running lights.

So, based on the mantra that everyone f's up, I'd submit that LOTS of people f' up the clearing process (witness the poor CONTINUOUSLY scorned DEA agent above). So, f' up the clearing process, then disregard the "Universal" safety rules, and you put your life and the life of those around you in peril. Sorry, maybe I'm an @$$h0le (hell, I KNOW I'm an @$$h0le, I get told that all the time), but I don't want ANYONE pointing ANY firearm at me or mine, EVER. YMMV, and all that jazz...

[Glenn E. Meyer]

These safety rules drive me crazy. People get wrapped up on the exact wording that
Cooper used but there seems to be a whole bunch of edge cases that are not clear if
the particular wording was intended to cover.

The four rules are heuristic, mnemonic and pragmatic instructions on how not to shoot the wrong thing or person. The literalist interpretations are from folks who dwell on the Internet and post them like they are a biblical prophet in discussions.

[SLG]

GJM,

I use a Red Glock with a re setting trigger for that.

If I don't have a fake version of the gun I want to dry fire, I minimize my risks by using a rifle plate as a target. Safer. Not safe.

[JAD]

. The literalist interpretations are from folks who dwell on the Internet and post them like they are a biblical prophet in discussions.

Are you referring to me, Dr. Meyer?

[Glenn E. Meyer]

How long is your beard and do you wear sandals/robe?

[JAD]

How long is your beard and do you wear sandals/robe?

Which beard? And only during mani-pedis.

[byrdland]

I'm pretty sure I knew what the "4 rules" were before I knew they existed. It's really just common sense. Perhaps Col Cooper realized that persons with or without common sense don't always apply what they "know" unless it drilled into them with practice and discipline, and of course explicitly stated as in the "Rules". I don't care what some instructor with 50 years experience says if they say otherwise as "well in this scenario". I won't stay around people at a range being unsafe. Just to be clear and simple. Never point a firearm, banana or any "special purpose body equipment" at anything you don't wish to destroy. If you do, you are doing grievous harm and may kill someone.

[HopetonBrown]

What if you took the slide off the pistol can you point the frame at people?

If I am handling a frame with the slide removed, I still index my finger on the side of the frame, and I try not to cover anyone with it.

If I am snaking a barrel, I usually remove the slide first. I don't have a problem with people snaking assembled guns, I think slavish interpretations of the 4 rules can dissolve into pedantry. But I do, for example, admonish people who grasp the slide of a Glock and wrap their palm over the muzzle when pressing the trigger during takedown.

I index my trigger finger when handling cordless drills, blowdryers, spray bottles, garden hose nozzles, etc.

I found that I'd place my support hand on my sternum when reaching for my wallet, and felt less of a retard when Southnarc recommended this.

I picked up ejection port trigger finger register from LAV, which was also later espoused by Hack and Southnarc.

My friends work at a local range/gun store. I sometimes lend a hand at the sales counter. Before I hand a customer a firearm, I clear it and say to them "all I ask is that you not point the gun at anyone in the store". About 3/4 of the time they do anyway, and I've grown tired of correcting them.

I don't consider myself a range or safety nazi. I'm not a carpenter from Nazareth, so I'm pretty sure I've lasered myself/others with loaded/unloaded guns before. But I don't take embarrassment well, and strive to be as reasonably safe as I can.

[JAD]

I found that I'd place my support hand on my sternum when reaching for my wallet, and felt less of a retard when Southnarc recommended this.

Thank you for that. I'm still a windowlicker, but that helps a little.

[Surf]

You cannot work in a firearms manufacturing plant either in production or in repair. You cannot work in any large gun repair / gunsmith shop. Strip off a barrel of a rifle to do a expedient armorer inspection of the crown or bore? You cannot attend any armorers course. You cannot go to any gunshow (SHOT, etc). MILES gear?

[jiminycricket]

Sometimes circumstances dictate...

7992

[SLG]

You cannot work in a firearms manufacturing plant either in production or in repair. You cannot work in any large gun repair / gunsmith shop. Strip off a barrel of a rifle to do a expedient armorer inspection of the crown or bore? You cannot attend any armorers course. You cannot go to any gunshow (SHOT, etc). MILES gear?

Surf,

I'm a little lost, can you expand on that please? Was there a specific post you were referring to, or a general or specific comment that was made?

[Wondering Beard]

Yeah, I got a little confused too.

[StraitR]

Surf,

I'm a little lost, can you expand on that please? Was there a specific post you were referring to, or a general or specific comment that was made?


Yeah, I got a little confused too.

Surf can certainly answer for himself, but it seems like he's giving examples that indicate words like "never" and "always" are finite in terms of gun handling.

That's my takeaway.

[Kyle Reese]

Looking for some thoughtful discussion:

When a semi-automatic handgun is locked open via a slide lock/release, is it acceptable to muzzle sweep your hands/body parts and/or other people.

I'm seeing quite a bit of gun handling where people treat a locked open semi-auto with a different set of handling rules.

That's how people get shot with "unloaded" firearms, especially when they adopt different standards regarding the handling of loaded and unloaded guns.

[JSGlock34]

How about shooting blanks at an Apache helicopter, in a military exercise, and getting live rounds mixed in:


http://www.theolympian.com/news/nation-world/national/article78515897.html


Sent from my iPad

Sadly not surprised. Saw far too many field exercises that started with the troops qualifying with their rifles. All live rounds are supposed to be turned in at the end of qualification, but too often there's that guy with a partially loaded magazine in his gear that was overlooked. Then the blanks get issued and mixed in.

Typically the call to 'go admin' and check weapons and gear for live rounds will occur at 0300 hours, with zero illumination, requiring copious amounts of white lights and four letter words to resolve.

[xmanhockey7]

It depends. Slide lock reload weak hand only I'll throw the gun in my pocket put a fresh mag in take it out then rack the slide. Dangerous? Maybe, but we're dealing with guns is there anything truly 100% safe?

[GardoneVT]

It's statistics.

We are humans. While I wont go so far as to say mistakes are inevitable, they can happen even to the most squared away folk.
That's why cars have airbags, computers have backups , and airplanes have redundant control systems.

Put simply, shit happens.
The person who draws the "Shit Happens" card with consistent experience handling ALL firearm-like objects with the same respect as the real McCoy is less likely to draw the "ER Visit " card at the same instant.

[BehindBlueI's]

From my Army days:

Beginner: learns the rules
Intermediate: applies the rules
Proficient: understands the rules
Expert: understands when the rules don't apply

The topic at hand was explosives, BTW, frankly more dangerous and easier to screw up then guns.

Anyone who has participated in yellow barrel training, MILES gear training, etc. has violated the 4 rules. It was done in (hopefully) carefully controlled situations where the learning objectives were deemed to be important enough for the risk.

[Wheeler]

The 4 rules are a guide. Cooper said something to the effect that we could violate 2 and still not have a negative outcome. Casual handling of firearms without keeping those rules in mind is a negative outcome in the making. In the end we're adults and should be cognizant of the results of our actions.

[23JAZ]

Lest anyone accuse me of being cavalier about gun safety and Col. Cooper's primary directives, I even (unconsciously) take care not to touch the trigger of the Windex spray bottle when I pick it up to clean my car windows. :o

^^^This is the PF quote of the week!

[Lomshek]

I've seen this multiple times recently.

1: A middle aged man walks into the range with a locked open Glock 43 like he is holding a damn cellphone instead of a gun. Totally flippant gun handling. He is pointing it at his torso, and then another individual on the range.
2: A young man takes a handgun out of a case, locked open, and walks to the range stall after muzzling his hand and feet.
3: A gun store employee locks a handgun open, and then muzzles their hand while showing it to a patron.
4: A young man unholsters his Glock, unloads and locks it open, and holds it up to show a part on the gun while pointing it at his hand.

What level of reprimand is appropriate from a fellow patron or public range go-er?


Unless they point it at me (or mine) I ignore it and hope they don't kill anyone. No matter what you say the answer will be the same "It's not loaded" said with disbelief that anyone would not understand that obvious fact. I don't have any power or control over another person so as long as they're not endangering me I ignore them.

If I went off on every person with piss poor muzzle or finger discipline at the gun store I'd be PNG.

[Surf]

Surf,

I'm a little lost, can you expand on that please? Was there a specific post you were referring to, or a general or specific comment that was made?

Hey Sorry, I was a bit short on time when I posted. It really wasn't in response to any single post as I only scanned the thread quickly. It was mostly in response to the OP, but Craig (StraitR) pretty much nailed what I was trying to get at.

[GardoneVT]

The following is a true story.

Unfortunately.

While it's a common occurrence to greet new shooters at the Range Safety Officer desk,it is also regretfully common to meet shooters who've been visiting ranges for years and only solidified their negligence.

Ergo;

"Can I clear my Smith Fortay here?"

Sure thing, I said. Point it at the clearing barrel and rack the slide.

"Aww don't worry about it, it's unloaded"

All the same old timer, just for kicks point the piece at the barrel when you clear it.

He pulled out a .40 caliber Shield, stuck his finger in the trigger like it was a commandment from God, then wriggled it around sweeping all of creation before pointing it at the clearing barrel.

He then racked the slide , at which point a shiny Hydra Shok round happily arced onto the desk.

"Aww dayum, I'm sorry. Guess I fuh-got I loahded it."

[Wheeler]

The following is a true story.

Unfortunately.

While it's a common occurrence to greet new shooters at the Range Safety Officer desk,it is also regretfully common to meet shooters who've been visiting ranges for years and only solidified their negligence.

Ergo;

"Can I clear my Smith Fortay here?"

Sure thing, I said. Point it at the clearing barrel and rack the slide.

"Aww don't worry about it, it's unloaded"

All the same old timer, just for kicks point the piece at the barrel when you clear it.

He pulled out a .40 caliber Shield, stuck his finger in the trigger like it was a commandment from God, then wriggled it around sweeping all of creation before pointing it at the clearing barrel.

He then racked the slide , at which point a shiny Hydra Shok round happily arced onto the desk.

"Aww dayum, I'm sorry. Guess I fuh-got I loahded it."

Thus the 4 Rules.

[SLG]

Hey Sorry, I was a bit short on time when I posted. It really wasn't in response to any single post as I only scanned the thread quickly. It was mostly in response to the OP, but Craig (StraitR) pretty much nailed what I was trying to get at.

Copy. That is the dilemma of dealing with deadly weapons. Of course a gun can be unloaded, and if it is actually unloaded, no amount of pointing it at people or pulling the trigger will hurt anyone. I see the 4 rules as a mindset, not a statement of fact. Nonetheless, the less often you violate any of them, the better. To your point about the industry, I have found that gunsmiths and people who work at gun factories, have some of the worst weapons handling skills extant. To them, rule one is "All guns are always unloaded." Definitely results in poor outcomes when you are not in a nice safe factory, and I've seen some horrific handling out in the field by some of our best gun "workers".

[VolGrad]

But Why? The gun can not fire.
It condition is inoperable similar to a blue gun.

What about a pistol with a chamber flag?

What if you took the slide off the pistol can you point the frame at people? or does
"never" apply here as well (I interpret a disassembled gun as "gun parts" and not
subject to the safety rules) but is this really different than the above?


These safety rules drive me crazy. People get wrapped up on the exact wording that
Cooper used but there seems to be a whole bunch of edge cases that are not clear if
the particular wording was intended to cover. The implications of these rules is far
from obvious and yet everyone seems to believe that if you "follow the rules"
(which has to be your understanding of the rules) you will be "safe".

For me it's about becoming complacent or getting "used to" doing things that would be unsafe if the gun were actually loaded. To this end you stick to the "rules" at all times, not just when you think it's safe. If you always treat any gun as loaded then you never have to worry.

Gun stores are the worst - everyone handling guns and waving them around. My skin crawls and I actually get in/out as quickly as possible. I have told many, many customers and counter monkeys alike to stop pointing a gun at me. How many times have we heard about "accidental" discharges in gun stores? I know we have had a couple locally in the past few years. No thanks.

[StraitR]

Copy. That is the dilemma of dealing with deadly weapons. Of course a gun can be unloaded, and if it is actually unloaded, no amount of pointing it at people or pulling the trigger will hurt anyone. I see the 4 rules as a mindset, not a statement of fact. Nonetheless, the less often you violate any of them, the better. To your point about the industry, I have found that gunsmiths and people who work at gun factories, have some of the worst weapons handling skills extant. To them, rule one is "All guns are always unloaded." Definitely results in poor outcomes when you are not in a nice safe factory, and I've seen some horrific handling out in the field by some of our best gun "workers".

THAT is exactly as I see it. It's practiced relentlessly to the point of mindful, purposeful habit. When put into situations such as gun shows, gun stores, or gunsmith establishments, I'm very aware and uneasy about firearms pointing in basically every direction. The four rules are important to me on a cellular level, literally, but I realize there will always be those times.

My rant...

IME and observation, people who exhibit poor gun handling have a similar complacency and general disrespect for pretty much every aspect of their lives. Purpose driven people tend to take the four rules more seriously and make a similar concerted effort to succeed in many if not all areas of their lives. As an example, when I was young and enlisted, I didn't take much of anything very seriously and playing "lasertag" with MILES gear didn't bother me one bit, in fact I loved every second of it. Now, twenty years later, it would give me great pause knowing that everyone is running around pointing guns at each other, but I'd march on because I understand the purpose. It's a matter of perspective, respect and caring, and the biggest problem with this country and people in general is that too few respect or care enough about anything at all.

[GRV]

There's a difference between the actual ideal rules, the actual habits that need to be enforced to actually be nearly as safe as the ideal rules, and then the actual language that needs to be used to actually get people to form those habits.

There's also a difference in people. The rules are really written with the general population in mind. There are people that are qualified to make judgement calls about breaking the rules for specific and articulate purposes. If you think you're better than needing the general-population rules, if you don't abide by them religiously, if you trust yourself....then you are almost certainly not one of those people.

My issue is that when the written rules differ too much from what the intended rules are, or are unreasonable to follow by the letter 95% of the time, then people won't have faith in them or will stop taking literal written word literally when it really counts. I struggle with this, because communication is ultimately about conveying meaning; sometimes the wrong words convey the right meaning, and the right words convey the wrong meaning. I do my best to strike a balance, and generally commit the sin of being a little bit of a gun hipster in the process. On the other hand, my mandatory 4-rule safety briefing to a new shooter is hours long (not including how it extends into the actual range time)---eyemahm knows because he has had to suffer it multiple times---and involves loads of redundancy and repetition, in addition to real world examples of catastrophes due to each individual rule being broken that I spent time finding and collecting. So, I think He will accept me at the gate despite my faults....(Col. Jeff Cooper that is.)

[11B10]

Lest anyone accuse me of being cavalier about gun safety and Col. Cooper's primary directives, I even (unconsciously) take care not to touch the trigger of the Windex spray bottle when I pick it up to clean my car windows. :o

^^^This is the PF quote of the week!





You beat me to it!

[SLG]

There's also a difference in people. The rules are really written with the general population in mind. There are people that are qualified to make judgement calls about breaking the rules for specific and articulate purposes. If you think you're better than needing the general-population rules, if you don't abide by them religiously, if you trust yourself....then you are almost certainly not one of those people.


No. They are not written with the general population in mind. They are written for ANYONE who handles a weapon. Anyone who thinks that doesn't include them, is someone I don't want to have weapons around me.

Yes, a rule may be bent or broken, for certain reasons, but that is because we are all imperfect, and the situations we find ourselves in are imperfect. Nonetheless, a PERFECT understanding of the rules is essential, if you want to minimize your chances of having a loud noise, let alone an injury or death.

I've known, seen, deployed with, worked with, trained and been trained by super high speed guys who were so high speed, the rules didn't apply to them. I can literally recount the accidents they've had, injuries they've caused, units they've been kicked out of, etc.

[GRV]

No. They are not written with the general population in mind. They are written for ANYONE who handles a weapon. Anyone who thinks that doesn't include them, is someone I don't want to have weapons around me.

Yes, a rule may be bent or broken, for certain reasons, but that is because we are all imperfect, and the situations we find ourselves in are imperfect. Nonetheless, a PERFECT understanding of the rules is essential, if you want to minimize your chances of having a loud noise, let alone an injury or death.

I've known, seen, deployed with, worked with, trained and been trained by super high speed guys who were so high speed, the rules didn't apply to them. I can literally recount the accidents they've had, injuries they've caused, units they've been kicked out of, etc.

We're on the same page here I think, c.f. what I ironically said about words and conveying meaning :rolleyes:

I'd have to think much harder to figure out how to better word what I was trying to say. It would be something like: the intent of the rules is to get you to absorb a very specific mindset. That necessary mindset is the same, regardless of who you are. However, the words that are effective at conveying that mindset may be different depending on who you are. I think there are people that could absorb the right mindset from different words, or maybe even better from different words, but that the words most universally agreed on are the best I've seen at conveying the right mindset to everyone, and I think that they are what they are with that goal in mind.

I have my own issues with some of the rules, particularly in their traditional form. Particularly "All guns are always loaded.". I have seen people assume an unloaded gun is loaded, and while not nearly as serious an issue as what the opposite breeds, it is still a problem in my book. Again, we all here know what the rule really means, but it's the wrong words. It conveys the right meaning for certain people, and the right words would likely convey the wrong meaning for a lot of people. My personal version for myself is "NEVER assume the state of a firearm, but handle ALL firearms as if they were loaded."

[psalms144.1]

To your point about the industry, I have found that gunsmiths and people who work at gun factories, have some of the worst weapons handling skills extant. To them, rule one is "All guns are always unloaded." Definitely results in poor outcomes when you are not in a nice safe factory, and I've seen some horrific handling out in the field by some of our best gun "workers".This is PRECISELY what led to the ND I've referenced repeatedly - in the shooter's mind, his weapon was cleared as a default setting - because of the constant, redundant, spastic clearing procedures our military uses in "safe areas" on deployment. This leads DIRECTLY to the average Joe/Jane developing a mindset that weapons are UNLOADED unless they remember loading them, with predictable results.

[GRV]

Separately, I frankly don't trust the words alone, any words, to convey the right mindset. That's why my safety lecture takes hours and involves:
- crap tons of words explanation
- forced repetition of the rules ad nauseum
- real world examples for every rule, including multiple videos
- hands on manipulation with blueguns, with mistakes repeatedly called out
- hands on manipulation with verified dry firearms only after happy with bluegun handling, with mistakes repeatedly called out
- hands on manipulation at the range in livefire only after fully content with everything else, usually the next day and after a review, with mistakes still called out
- forced repetition of the rules periodically throughout, including after the whole thing is over

My goal throughout the whole process is to convince the new shooter that they can't trust themselves, ever, regardless of who they are. I believe that very religiously myself, and it effects my lifestyle and philosophy in extremely significant ways that go well beyond firearms...

ETA: Actually, my goal is to make them themselves realize, first hand, that they can't trust themselves. Generally, it happens after they have repeatedly demonstrated mental understanding of the rules, then go to pick up a bluegun for the first time and touch the trigger. That's generally the ":eek: moment" when they get it. It generally blows people away, and you can see them go from understanding to understanding. This is reinforced repeatedly whenever they make a mistake, especially on the range.

[StraitR]

This is PRECISELY what led to the ND I've referenced repeatedly - in the shooter's mind, his weapon was cleared as a default setting - because of the constant, redundant, spastic clearing procedures our military uses in "safe areas" on deployment. This leads DIRECTLY to the average Joe/Jane developing a mindset that weapons are UNLOADED unless they remember loading them, with predictable results.

THIS is a big problem and one of many reasons why I keep loaded guns in my safe. Not all, but some. Constants, standards, and defaults are what lull people into complacency. I've seen a lot of ND's in places where loaded firearms and/or even ammunition is not allowed. Anyone not on top of why that makes zero PFuking difference in how you handle firearms will more than likely pull a trigger without ever checking the gun. Why? "Because there are no loaded guns in here".

[GardoneVT]

The "loaded/unloaded" dichotomy causes a lot of safety fails.

In other areas of life, machines have an on-off setting. Machine off? Ignore.
Machine on,plugged in, etc? Now it's time to Get Squared Away, follow safe actions, etc.

When dealing with car repairs (disconnect battery before starting) , computer service (disconnect power and batteries), this mindset is Ok. Problem is folks bring it to the gun handling areas too.

Guns don't have on/off switches. You don't unplug a Glock before field stripping it. It's not like a circuit breaker which can be easily seen and switched to "off" with one motion. Yet the mindset remains: if the guns unloaded then clearly it's "off" and can now be manipulated however one wishes .

Unfortunately ,guns are more complicated to clear then a typical appliance or tool. You gotta do three things in a precise order ,every time. Or Problems. If switching off a house circuit breaker involved as many steps as clearing a handgun with an equal margin of error, there'd be a lot more fried homeowners being carted off to the coroner.

It also points back to the PC "Guns Are Tools" nonsense being circulated today in an abortive attempt to counter the antis. No ,Dorothy, firearms are WEAPONS.
I don't treat my Beretta the same way I treat my mallet or my cordless drills. That's because my cordless drills and mallet are working tools. My Beretta is a weapon capable of causing grave injury or death. Those of us who consider guns "tools" and spread propaganda to the same are perpetuating a safety problem.

[Default.mp3]

Going a little off-topic here, but...

It also points back to the PC "Guns Are Tools" nonsense being circulated today in an abortive attempt to counter the antis. No ,Dorothy, firearms are WEAPONS.
I don't treat my Beretta the same way I treat my mallet or my cordless drills. That's because my cordless drills and mallet are working tools. My Beretta is a weapon capable of causing grave injury or death. Those of us who consider guns "tools" and spread propaganda to the same are perpetuating a safety problem.Let us consult Mr. Webster:

Definition of tool
1
a : a handheld device that aids in accomplishing a task
b (1) : the cutting or shaping part in a machine or machine tool (2) : a machine for shaping metal

2
a : something (as an instrument or apparatus) used in performing an operation or necessary in the practice of a vocation or profession <a scholar's books are his tools>
b : an element of a computer program (as a graphics application) that activates and controls a particular function <a drawing tool>
c : a means to an end <a book's cover can be a marketing tool>
Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tool

A weapon is, by definition, a tool, as it is an aid in accomplishing a task, in this case the tasking being "to injure, defeat, or destroy" (as defined by M-W). And let us not forget, even tools that are generally not weapons can still be exceedingly dangerous. A rotary saw is quite capable of causing grave injury or death when used negligently, despite that not being a rotary saw's raison d'etre. Hell, a ladder could do the same, despite potentially have zero moving parts.

As Surf previously noted, taking an absolutist/literal approach to the Four Safety Rules creates some rather basic conundrums in the practice/maintenance/manufacturing/etc. of firearms. A realistic approach will obviously require some bending or selective ignoring of the rules; I suppose the question people are fighting is where the line, if any, between reasonable and reckless is drawn, and if that line can shift depending on the level of skill, attention, and extenuating circumstances (e.g., whether not it is acceptable to muzzle a hostage during an HR mission while transitioning between targets).

[BehindBlueI's]

It also points back to the PC "Guns Are Tools" nonsense being circulated today in an abortive attempt to counter the antis. No ,Dorothy, firearms are WEAPONS.
I don't treat my Beretta the same way I treat my mallet or my cordless drills. That's because my cordless drills and mallet are working tools. My Beretta is a weapon capable of causing grave injury or death. Those of us who consider guns "tools" and spread propaganda to the same are perpetuating a safety problem.


Of course you don't treat a drill like a gun, but I bet you use safety precautions appropriate to a drill when you use it. Things can be both tools and weapons, it's not a mutually exclusive concept.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Not the 'tool' debate. We do that on TFL every couple of months! I can't stand it. It ranks with 9mm vs. 45, 1911 vs. Glock or what is an assault tool as a mind numbing cortex killer.

[Dagga Boy]

Part of the issue is lack of seriousness, lack of context, and general lip service to safety. We simply treat and teach rule 1 and 4 as mindset rules and 2 and 3 as operational rules and physical handling rules. By treating rule one as a mindset, it is essentially to not do stupid things with a gun because you "think it is unloaded". The goal is to prevent harm or injury. It is why they are fail safes to each other. A typical application to the "loaded" mindset is that when conducting dry practice it should be done in a manner in which if it was in fact loaded no one would be injured if you screwed up. You should not be using your kids, dogs, and other things as dry practice targets (we are okay with cats...;). You get in a mindset of seriousness. This is the same with a firearm with a cylinder open or slide locked to the rear. Great, you are displaying a good indicator of what the guns condition is, but you can still conduct manipulation a and avoid muzzling things you are not willing to destroy, and keeping it oriented towards a best scenario backstop.

[Edster]

I can only speak for myself but, every time I handle a gun (or frame), I see it as an opportunity to either reinforce good habits or start bad ones.

Sure, practically speaking, the frame I'm cleaning has to point in various directions. However, if I'm muzzle-conscious when I grab a frame by the grip, I'm only reinforcing a good habit to follow when the rest of the parts are attached.

[Dagga Boy]

One of my many favorite Wayne Dobbs quotes when we teach safety and mindset is "Everytime you pick up a firearm you are making a life and death decision and a financial decision that can effect you for the rest of your life". Unfortunately.....most people do not treat them that way, nor are they of a serious mindset.

[StraitR]

You should not be using your kids, dogs, and other things as dry practice targets (we are okay with cats...;).

Get out of my mind D!!!

[41magfan]

Cooper was right when he made this comment decades ago, and I'm paraphrasing; "Perverting the Four Safety Rules (and what they mean) has become an art form."

[Wheeler]

Cooper was right when he made this comment decades ago, and I'm paraphrasing; "Perverting the Four Safety Rules (and what they mean) has become an art form."

Make a set of rules, tell folks if they follow those rules it's a Really Good Thing and within minutes a huge percentage of those folks will start trying to rationalize things in such a way so they can find an exception to the rules. It's basic human nature.

[GRV]

Make a set of rules, tell folks if they follow those rules it's a Really Good Thing and within minutes a huge percentage of those folks will start trying to rationalize things in such a way so they can find an exception to the rules. It's basic human nature.

If the goal is to get people to understand and to become safer gun handlers, then we can either bitch about the fact that they're not getting it, or we can change our approach. There are some people that will never get it, and they are truly a lost cause, but it sounds like we're making a blanket statement about a "huge percentage" of people, so I don't expect that they are all so dense as to be unreachable.

Personally, when communicating, I've found it more useful to personally take responsibility for getting the right message across, instead of blaming the other person when they don't get it. Occasionally, there are people who are actually the ones at fault by failing to listen properly, but rarely (not never) is it ever productive to blame the listener. Instead, I've learned a lot by blaming myself and trying to find new ways of attaining my goal, i.e. getting the message across. That, or I decide it's not worth the effort required, quietly disengage, and find another solution to whatever my problem was.

[Dagga Boy]

Part of the issue is many "instructors" treat the safety rules like the safety brief you get on an airplane....and bonus points for speed reading it. Most never understand or teach context, which is much of the problem, especially in regards to rule one that doesn't make sense without some level of context.

[SLG]

Part of the issue is many "instructors" treat the safety rules like the safety brief you get on an airplane....and bonus points for speed reading it. Most never understand or teach context, which is much of the problem, especially in regards to rule one that doesn't make sense without some level of context.

The other problem is when this is done in professional circles, most of the students either think it is a waste of time, or an insult to them. Can't win when dealing with non enthusiast cops.

[rob_s]

If the goal is to get people to understand and to become safer gun handlers, then we can either bitch about the fact that they're not getting it, or we can change our approach. There are some people that will never get it, and they are truly a lost cause, but it sounds like we're making a blanket statement about a "huge percentage" of people, so I don't expect that they are all so dense as to be unreachable.

There's approach, and then there's re-writing the rules because:arrogance, or because:wannabe-famous, or because:love-complicated/hate-simple, or whatever other failing on the part of the instructor.

it is not rocket surgery.

I have yet to have anyone I've taught not get this. To include children 8-10 years old.

I think the over-explainers and the re-writers create more "will never get it" gun owners than anything else.

[JCS]

How many people have shot themselves because they thought they had an unloaded weapon? If it's a real firearm it should always be treated as loaded. Sirt guns etc can be used differently imo. I hate going into gun stores because people point guns around like their toys. I'm always shocked when they take a gun from a complete stranger (salesman) and trust its unloaded. I always always always check for myself. One time the salesman looked offended. I couldn't believe it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[GRV]

There's approach, and then there's re-writing the rules because:arrogance, or because:wannabe-famous, or because:love-complicated/hate-simple, or whatever other failing on the part of the instructor.

it is not rocket surgery.

I have yet to have anyone I've taught not get this. To include children 8-10 years old.

I think the over-explainers and the re-writers create more "will never get it" gun owners than anything else.

See what I said about the agreed upon writing probably being the best to convey the mindset to everyone across the board, and how other words, while maybe being more "right", probably don't convey the mindset as successfully.

As far as approach goes, when it comes to the 4 rules, I really don't think changing words helps much at all, and I don't think the words alone are good enough. The words are a good reminder, like a mental reference card, but only after someone has thoroughly absorbed the point, usually through physical interaction. Having a bunch of people nod along for 15 mins, then recite a few memorized sentences, and signing a piece of paper, doesn't mean shit. Odds are, they'll still break between 1 and 4 of the rules the very first time they pick up a gun, no matter how convinced they are that they understand the rules.

I don't think enough instructors (of those who actually intend the safety brief to teach safety, as opposed to remind) include enough hands on practicing of safe handling.

Words don't mean shit to me when it comes to safety. Actions are what I care about. I don't decide whether someone is safe or not by talking to them; I watch what they do when there's a gun in their hand.

[psalms144.1]

I had to stop the line twice today because of lack of muzzle awareness. Frankly, the way some folks draw, reload, and reholster is appalling. And, thank God my problem child (by chance) ended up in the middle of five lanes - right in front of me while I was calling the line, so I was able to step in immediately. Didn't make me real happy to be muzzled every time he went to reholster - but at least after the first correction he stopped reholstering with his finger on the trigger!

Maybe the DAK isn't such a bad trigger after all...

[Shawn Dodson]

I took Trident Concepts Close Quarters Fighting, taught by Jeff Gonzales in 2002, in which we performed weapon retention/disarming training with unloaded pistols. It was unnerving to have an actual handgun pointed at me as well as to point an actual handgun at another person but I believe it provided training value in overcoming the fear/apprehension and being able to successfully perform.

Red/blue guns and SIRT guns are training aids. They aren't firearms.

[Wheeler]

I took Trident Concepts Close Quarters Fighting, taught by Jeff Gonzales in 2002, in which we performed weapon retention/disarming training with unloaded pistols. It was unnerving to have an actual handgun pointed at me as well as to point an actual handgun at another person but I believe it provided training value in overcoming the fear/apprehension and being able to successfully perform.

Red/blue guns and SIRT guns are training aids. They aren't firearms.

As long as you realize that you are violating the four basic safety rules in order to accomplish a perceived training goal with questionable positive results, rock on.

[11B10]

If the goal is to get people to understand and to become safer gun handlers, then we can either bitch about the fact that they're not getting it, or we can change our approach. There are some people that will never get it, and they are truly a lost cause, but it sounds like we're making a blanket statement about a "huge percentage" of people, so I don't expect that they are all so dense as to be unreachable.

Personally, when communicating, I've found it more useful to personally take responsibility for getting the right message across, instead of blaming the other person when they don't get it. Occasionally, there are people who are actually the ones at fault by failing to listen properly, but rarely (not never) is it ever productive to blame the listener. Instead, I've learned a lot by blaming myself and trying to find new ways of attaining my goal, i.e. getting the message across. That, or I decide it's not worth the effort required, quietly disengage, and find another solution to whatever my problem was.


".....personally take responsibility?" Whoa - wait - in 2016 America? What a concept!

[11B10]

Part of the issue is many "instructors" treat the safety rules like the safety brief you get on an airplane....and bonus points for speed reading it. Most never understand or teach context, which is much of the problem, especially in regards to rule one that doesn't make sense without some level of context.


Unfortunately, this ^^^ is par for the course, more often than not. If everyone would treat firearms and everything related to them, their care, handling, as if their life depended on it (umm.... it does!), we'd all be better off.

[11B10]

For me it's about becoming complacent or getting "used to" doing things that would be unsafe if the gun were actually loaded. To this end you stick to the "rules" at all times, not just when you think it's safe. If you always treat any gun as loaded then you never have to worry.

Gun stores are the worst - everyone handling guns and waving them around. My skin crawls and I actually get in/out as quickly as possible. I have told many, many customers and counter monkeys alike to stop pointing a gun at me. How many times have we heard about "accidental" discharges in gun stores? I know we have had a couple locally in the past few years. No thanks.



Couldn't agree more! The one place you think should be the safest place for good gun handling would be a gun store. The only thing I can think of is that feeling we get - the excited part when looking at firearms - takes over the "Hey - this is a real gun" reality and people start doing just stupid, deadly stuff. On one hand, I never want to leave, while a huge part of me is saying: "Get outta here - that guy's frickin goofy!"

[JCS]

Went to cabelas today and heard the gun counter guy say this to a woman, "here you go, I already cleared it for you". She then muzzles 4 people and dry fires it without ever verifying it was empty.


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[Wheeler]

Went to cabelas today and heard the gun counter guy say this to a woman, "here you go, I already cleared it for you". She then muzzles 4 people and dry fires it without ever verifying it was empty.


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The thing is, most folks just don't know any better. THey walk into a place like Cabelas and they think the guy behind the counter actually knows what they are talking about. It's no wonder there are so many Negative Outcomes created by casual or downright negligent gun handling. https://tacticalprofessor.wordpress.com/2016/01/08/the-importance-of-gunhandling/

[Edster]

You should not be using your kids, dogs, and other things as dry practice targets (we are okay with cats...;).

As I said to my spouse: "Why would I buy a laser pointer toy for the cat when I have a perfectly good set of Crimson Trace grips?"

[GardoneVT]

Went to cabelas today and heard the gun counter guy say this to a woman, "here you go, I already cleared it for you". She then muzzles 4 people and dry fires it without ever verifying it was empty.


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On your next visit, bring a ballistic riot shield and ask for the display guns from behind the shield.

Maybe the staff and customers will get the hint then.

[wtturn]

I took Trident Concepts Close Quarters Fighting, taught by Jeff Gonzales in 2002, in which we performed weapon retention/disarming training with unloaded pistols. It was unnerving to have an actual handgun pointed at me as well as to point an actual handgun at another person but I believe it provided training value in overcoming the fear/apprehension and being able to successfully perform.

Red/blue guns and SIRT guns are training aids. They aren't firearms.
How does this Jeff Gonzales clown have any credibility on here, after shit like this?

[olstyn]

On your next visit, bring a ballistic riot shield and ask for the display guns from behind the shield.

Maybe the staff and customers will get the hint then.

Highly doubtful, plus you'd get a LOT of funny looks. :)

[Dagga Boy]

How does this Jeff Gonzales clown have any credibility on here, after shit like this?

There were a lot of things many of us did over a decade ago that we do different now because of the availability of training tools. Also, many were coming out of the LE/MIL world doing things that were done regularly in those environments. Some have evolved their training to safer places and others have gone completely the opposite direction. Gonzales is not one of the industry problems by any stretch.

[rob_s]

How does this Jeff Gonzales clown have any credibility on here, after shit like this?

While I am the first one to call bullshit on the whole "SME" thing, I do think guys like Jeff do deserve a bit more respect than that, and shouldn't be referred to as "clown" based solely on 3rd party reports on the intertard.

[wtturn]

That was needlessly inflammatory language and I do apologize for calling the guy a clown. It was a manifestation of the strong, visceral feelings I have about the topic, coupled with other prior objections to the doctrines I've seen Gonzales espouse.

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[DI1]

That was needlessly inflammatory language and I do apologize for calling the guy a clown. It was a manifestation of the strong, visceral feelings I have about the topic, coupled with other prior objections to the doctrines I've seen Gonzales espouse.

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I don't know why you have such visceral feelings or why you object to things Jeff has espoused. I can tell you from my personal experience that he is a great instructor and I have always come away from his numerous classes with better understanding of techniques and a better skill set. I don't 100 % agree with every aspect of his methodology, but Jeff can back it up through experience and statistics which he records. The class previously mentioned may have involved students pointing UNLOADED firearms at each other, I disagree with this coming from the LE world, however I'm sure this was due to the fact that there simply were not enough training weapons available for the entire class. This was in 2002, I would bet that this no longer exists in Jeff's current classes.

[warpedcamshaft]

Part of the issue is lack of seriousness, lack of context, and general lip service to safety. We simply treat and teach rule 1 and 4 as mindset rules and 2 and 3 as operational rules and physical handling rules. By treating rule one as a mindset, it is essentially to not do stupid things with a gun because you "think it is unloaded". The goal is to prevent harm or injury. It is why they are fail safes to each other. A typical application to the "loaded" mindset is that when conducting dry practice it should be done in a manner in which if it was in fact loaded no one would be injured if you screwed up. You should not be using your kids, dogs, and other things as dry practice targets (we are okay with cats...;). You get in a mindset of seriousness. This is the same with a firearm with a cylinder open or slide locked to the rear. Great, you are displaying a good indicator of what the guns condition is, but you can still conduct manipulation a and avoid muzzling things you are not willing to destroy, and keeping it oriented towards a best scenario backstop.

Very good post. Thank you nyeti.

[Tamara]

How do you dry fire off a shooting range?

As though I expect to be surprised by a loud noise?

[41magfan]

Riddle me this ....

If I were to use my unloaded gun (drawn from my holster) in a classroom setting to demonstrate a trigger pull technique by dry-firing the pistol (repeatedly) in a direction away from the students, would that be violating the Rules?

[Unobtanium]

A "gun" is a "gun". It's always loaded. This means I NEVER POINT IT AT ANYTHING I DO NOT WISH (am not on some level okay with) destroying. Of course I don't want to blow a hole in the floor of my vehicle when I load my rifle into the vehicle. But if I DID, I could live with myself. I couldn't ever get over blowing a hole in a person that did not need it. I keep my weapons pointed away from people whether loaded or not. Locked open or not.

[Tamara]

Riddle me this ....

If I were to use my unloaded gun (drawn from my holster) in a classroom setting to demonstrate a trigger pull technique by dry-firing the pistol (repeatedly) in a direction away from the students, would that be violating the Rules?

*shrugs* I dunno. What's on the other side of that wall (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4751244&postcount=34)? Do you do this often enough that buying a SIRT might make more sense than a bunch of unnecessary administrative gun-handling? I mean, we all know that it's during the administrative finger-banging of loaded guns that holes wind up in stuff. And people.

[TCinVA]

How does this Jeff Gonzales clown have any credibility on here, after shit like this?

I've used real guns in close quarters training, too. There is value to having someone try and solve close range problems using the gun they actually carry.

The key is HOW the training is conducted. Done properly, it can be conducted safely. I wouldn't do that kind of training with just anyone...only with people I know to have a solid grasp on the "done properly" bit of the equation.

[StraitR]

Riddle me this ....

If I were to use my unloaded gun (drawn from my holster) in a classroom setting to demonstrate a trigger pull technique by dry-firing the pistol (repeatedly) in a direction away from the students, would that be violating the Rules?


*shrugs* I dunno. What's on the other side of that wall (https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4751244&postcount=34)? Do you do this often enough that buying a SIRT might make more sense than a bunch of unnecessary administrative gun-handling? I mean, we all know that it's during the administrative finger-banging of loaded guns that holes wind up in stuff. And people.

The Blade-Tech Training Barrel (http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/training-safety-gear/training-amp-simulation/training-barrel-prod26106.aspx) would be an inexpensive option for that quandary.