Active shoulders

[CCT125US]

In regards to the following quote from Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts:

"Keep your shoulders active, pull back on the shoulder blades. Don't let them round and roll forward"

From this link:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/caught-flat-footed/

I am curious to hear more about this from folks who have trained with Mr. Gonzales. My interpretation may be different than what is intended. I have been exploring this, and the Leatham calf tension concept as mentioned by SLG, in over the past several sessions.

[PNWTO]

The way that I learned to "pack" the shoulders was from the Russian Kettlebell Challenge:

Hold arms straight up.

Reach each hand to the back of the neck, bending at the elbow.

Feel those scapula retract.

[45dotACP]

If I'm understanding what I'm reading, almost nobody recommends that technique...

[GJM]

If you shoot with active shoulders, does that make you an active shooter?

[Wondering Beard]

Maybe you're just shouldering the burden of being an active shooter?

[Cheap Shot]

In regards to the following quote from Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts:

"Keep your shoulders active, pull back on the shoulder blades. Don't let them round and roll forward"

From this link:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/caught-flat-footed/

I am curious to hear more about this from folks who have trained with Mr. Gonzales. My interpretation may be different than what is intended. I have been exploring this, and the Leatham calf tension concept as mentioned by SLG, in over the past several sessions.

FWIW my .02

1. Timmie turtle stance with head tucked low between shoulders. Shoulders hunched up and rolled forward.
2. Ben Stoeger - Grip the Sh#t out of the gun with your hands, keep everything else loose. Head erect, bring gun up to line of sight. This IMO would the best technique for fast movement with shooting. I just can't to it to my satisfaction yet.
3. Jeff Gonzales- pull back (and down) on the shoulder blades. Grip the Sh#t out of the gun, including ring and pinky finger. In addition to hands, consciously use muscles in back, shoulders, chest, arms to control recoil and stabilize gun.

I personally can't just use my hands to grip and keep everything else loose. But, I can't run and gun through USPSA COF's keeping my entire upper body locked up. However, on a square range if I'm not moving fast Jeffs recommendations for me pay big dividends in greater accuracy and less fatigue.

The tactical turtle seems to be somewhat intuitive for most people, including me when I first started out, but its the least desirable of all (again for me, based on performance)

So right now I'm doing 3 on stand and shoot stages, and trying to do 2 when I feel froggy. YMMV

[JCS]

To properly engage the shoulder girdle you must roll the shoulders forward. I'm not an instructor but I know much more about anatomy. My personal stance is that I want to engage as many muscles as possible to absorb recoil. To do so I roll the shoulders forward. I want the gun to push away from my body not pull towards so why would I pull my shoulders back?

If I were to do a plank or push up would you pull your shoulders back? No way. You would press and extend through your shoulders.

I'm probably looking at this completely wrong.


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[VegasHK]

While I don't know much about this technique, at face value it seems very counter intuitive. I have been taught, and teach to roll the shoulders forward. This helps to engage the larger and stronger back and shoulder muscles. Instead of using just arms and hand grip, one is able to activate and use some of the upper bodies strongest muscles. Rolling the shoulders up under the ears (bit of an exaggeration) allows the recoil to run trough the arms (shock absorbers) and into the big muscles. The stability gained and the endurance this adds to shooting is pretty hard to argue. As an exams of how strong those muscles are, Tazer International teaches to target the large back muscles with the Tazer to achieve better lock up, and ensure neuro muscular incapacitation. If the same muscles that will lock you up when hit with a Tazer aren't the same muscles you want to tighten up when shooting, maybe I'm missing something.

[CCT125US]

I appreciate the responses so far. I agree with VegasHK that at face value it does seem counter intuitive. I have found that in my shooting, a more relaxed stance is better (defined as faster / more accurate). And I think part of the issue is how folks interpret meanings differently. Say someone tends to have a slouchy / hunched stance, perhaps they could benefit from standing proud and rolling the shoulders back. Perhaps another looks to be standing upright like Stoeger but has a weak grip and is not engaging the right muscles. It takes a certain level of strength to drive a handgun at a certain level, perhaps where that strength comes from can vary? To me the quote "Keep your shoulders active, pull back on the shoulder blades. Don't let them round and roll forward" is pretty straight forward. However, he does not mention tension, just position. When I worked on this technique a bit yesterday, it yielded good results. However, I was also working on the Leatham calf tension technique as mentioned in post #474 of this thread https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator/page48 so I was not working something new in isolation which I know is not ideal. I do know that the two techniques, on that day, made me take pause and re evaluate my opinion. My standard drills were easier, I had time remaining and accuracy was excellent. The next time I get to my range, I plan to evaluate while shooting and moving. I will give the Panone Mad Half minute https://youtu.be/fgK67aKfj_E several runs and compare prior times.

For reference some of my standard drills are; Indoor: iHack, 25yd slow fire B8, FYL, pairs to 2"C at 5 and 7yds, failure drill. Outdoor: Defoor PT#1, mad half minute.


Still looking for thoughts from prior students who heard it first hand

[Saur]

You can watch his shoulders after his drawstroke and reload here (https://youtu.be/GRk9Y7zwVCo?t=27s) to get a visual.

I remember he had an article on msw, "In regards to recoil management and assuming a powerful grip, the upper torso and in specific your lats, traps, delts along with your shoulder girdle need to be retracted as if you are pulling a rope with both hands at the same time. I try to have the student imagine they are squeezing their shoulder blades together in an effort to pinch and hold a Nerf football." (http://modernserviceweapons.com/?p=14007)

[JCS]

It seems counterintuitive to pull your shoulders in the direction of the recoil. Engaging the traps and back muscles the way he advocates means you are using muscles whose purpose is to pull and not push. I like Gonzales a lot and would love to take his class. I would like to hear from his students as well to hear his reasoning for doing this over rolling them forward.


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[taadski]

To properly engage the shoulder girdle you must roll the shoulders forward. I'm not an instructor but I know much more about anatomy. My personal stance is that I want to engage as many muscles as possible to absorb recoil. To do so I roll the shoulders forward. I want the gun to push away from my body not pull towards so why would I pull my shoulders back?

If I were to do a plank or push up would you pull your shoulders back? No way. You would press and extend through your shoulders.



It seems counterintuitive to pull your shoulders in the direction of the recoil. Engaging the traps and back muscles the way he advocates means you are using muscles whose purpose is to pull and not push. I like Gonzales a lot and would love to take his class. I would like to hear from his students as well to hear his reasoning for doing this over rolling them forward.


I'd disagree with some of your take on this, FFG.

If we're talking about achieving the strongest most supportive biomechanical position for the shoulder joint itself, that's going to be achieved with an externally rotated humerous. In a pushup position (and incidentally in a shooting one also), that would mean the elbows would be pointed down slightly (closer to the torso), with the thumbs facing up and with the scapulas adducted. This scapular and humeral position incidentally also carries over into the overhead position as it puts the shoulder (gleno-hemoral) joint into a more bone stacked and uninpinged position; one in which it can bear more force without relying only on muscle.

When most dislocations occur in the shoulder joint they occur anteriorly. That's because internal rotation is the weakest position for the shoulder to be in as there's much less skeletal support and it's only relying on the relatively weak rotator cuff muscles (superspinatus, infraspinatus, teres minor and subscapularis) for support.

I suspect the reason the rolled shoulder, neck hunched position offers some degree of good recoil control is due to the increased lateral pressure on the gun and the movement of COM forward slightly. But don't mistake it for a more mechanically well supported pushing position.

I've NOT trained with Gonzales but I trust this is what he's getting at with the referenced coaching. And what Ben et al are achieving by their more upright and shoulder retracted shooting positions.




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[JHC]

I have related driving the pistol like driving a forehand in tennis or a straight right or a line drive. Hard to fathom pulling the blades back.

[Surf]

There are a few ways to increase leverage and increase the grip pressure on the pistol and what Jeff Gonzales is describing is one method and with a solid mod iso, thumbs forward grip it does work. If you actually grip a pistol with this mod iso, thumbs forward technique and attempt to squeeze the shoulder blades towards each other you will feel the pressure of the grip increase as the hands are trying to separate. With a solid lock of the hands, specifically the fingers this increases the clamping pressure at the heels of the hands. This is not my preferred method but it is one technique to get more leverage on the weapon.

[imp1295]

In regards to the following quote from Jeff Gonzales of Trident Concepts:

"Keep your shoulders active, pull back on the shoulder blades. Don't let them round and roll forward"

From this link:

http://www.tridentconcepts.com/caught-flat-footed/

I am curious to hear more about this from folks who have trained with Mr. Gonzales. My interpretation may be different than what is intended. I have been exploring this, and the Leatham calf tension concept as mentioned by SLG, in over the past several sessions.

I had a two day class with Gonzales last August. Many if the points have already been brought up. His concepts are similar to locking of the shoulder girdle explained by many weight lifters. He likened the overall stance, shoulder position to that of an oly lifter. Much of what he taught was so different from what I was previously doing that my performance really decreased. I tried for a few months to incorporate some of this but found that for me the performance increase wasn't there.

On the other hand. After a few hours with McPhee my performance did increase and I've continued to practice his recommendations.

Some things work better than others. And, individual experience is key. It's why I've tried to train with a variety of folks since started taking classes 5 years ago. Send me a pm and I can give you some jotted down notes from the class.


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[GJM]

I had a two day class with Gonzales last August. Many if the points have already been brought up. His concepts are similar to locking of the shoulder girdle explained by many weight lifters. He likened the overall stance, shoulder position to that of an oly lifter. Much of what he taught was so different from what I was previously doing that my performance really decreased. I tried for a few months to incorporate some of this but found that for me the performance increase wasn't there.

On the other hand. After a few hours with McPhee my performance did increase and I've continued to practice his recommendations.

Some things work better than others. And, individual experience is key. It's why I've tried to train with a variety of folks since started taking classes 5 years ago. Send me a pm and I can give you some jotted down notes from the class.


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This post really highlights a difference between training with Robbie Leatham and many other instructors.

Many instructors try to teach you to "do it their way." Robbie watches you shoot, and if it is working, focuses on refining what it is you are doing now instead of dramatically changing your technique.

[imp1295]

This post really highlights a difference between training with Robbie Leatham and many other instructors.

Many instructors try to teach you to "do it their way." Robbie watches you shoot, and if it is working, focuses on refining what it is you are doing now instead of dramatically changing your technique.

Interestingly enough, McPhee credits some of his influence to training with Leatham. Especially when it comes to grip and stance.


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[45dotACP]

This post really highlights a difference between training with Robbie Leatham and many other instructors.

Many instructors try to teach you to "do it their way." Robbie watches you shoot, and if it is working, focuses on refining what it is you are doing now instead of dramatically changing your technique.
That to me, seems contingent on the student having some degree of skill already...

[Josh Runkle]

Where can I take some "Active Shoulder Response Training"?

[wtturn]

encouraging that much tension in the lats/traps/shoulders is pretty much the antithesis of what you want

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[Peally]

Everyone covered it already but that sounds like goofy advice.

[taadski]

I'd agree that adding tension is not ideal or desirable. And that does seem to be what's being advocated, at least in the MSW article.

I guess a point I'd like to clarify is that an orientation with the shoulder blades depressed and retracted is actually a more muscularly relaxed and athletic position than the typical shrugged shoulders, head forward, elbows out 'timmy tuck' thing that is so common.

I just wanna ensure we're all not talking past one another.

[CCT125US]

I'd agree that adding tension is not ideal or desirable. And that does seem to be what's being advocated, at least in the MSW article.

I guess a point I'd like to clarify is that an orientation with the shoulder blades depressed and retracted is actually a more muscularly relaxed and athletic position than the typical shrugged shoulders, head forward, elbows out 'timmy tuck' thing that is so common.

I just wanna ensure we're all not talking past one another.

This what I enjoy about this place, meaningful discussion. So you would say the orientation vs. the tension is key? This is what I have observed. This may be a case of the words "as if" or "like" get misinterpreted. Do this as if you were pulling a rope /like you are pinching a nerf ball. Meaning / interpretation / application

[taadski]

This what I enjoy about this place, meaningful discussion. So you would say the orientation vs. the tension is key? This is what I have observed.


Me too. And yeah, I think so. Although I will point out shooting is fundamentally fraught with the contradiction between 'relaxation' and 'tension'. It's easy to get diverted too far down one path and have to return to the other to find balance.

As a teacher or coach, one is always on the lookout for means of conveying new sensations with words/concepts/exercises. And there's always going to be some accessory 'tension' (new sensation?) associated with asking folks to try new things. I suspect Jeff's analogies are likely with this intent, as he's quite an accomplished shooter.

[Josh Runkle]

Me too. And yeah, I think so. Although I will point out shooting is fundamentally fraught with the contradiction between 'relaxation' and 'tension'. It's easy to get diverted too far down one path and have to return to the other to find balance.


I agree, and additionally, these "balances" are individual experiences. I shoot with CCT125US in person. I'm about twice his weight. How does that effect recoil mitigation? I run a fairly loose grip, he uses a "wringing" tension grip. A friend of ours uses a "crush" grip. It's really hard to find these balances not just as the right amount of tension, or where it is applied from, but specifically how is it applied by an individual's specific body type.

These things are important to read and take to the range and test, but at the end of the day, it is an individual journey that can be influenced, but not taught.

[Tuesday]

There's no dichotomy. For the most part in sports you want to be loose so you can move fast, but tight at critical moments for precise application of force. What happens is you pulse on a full-body contraction to initiate a powerful movement like a punch or golf swing, then relax through the movement for speed of motion, then contract again at the critical moment to apply the maximum controlled force when the club impacts the ball or the punch lands. Per Stuart McGill and co.:

McGill, S.M., Chaimberg, J., Frost, D., Fenwick, C. (2010) The double peak: How elite MMA fighters develop speed and strike force. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research. 24(2): 348-357.

Most people learn to do this naturally, but that doesn't mean it can't be improved with training.There are more than a few ideas about how to achieve this improvement, though.

McGill, a spine biomechanics researcher, seems to suggest training the full body contract/relax pulse rather than inserting it consciously into your movements. For example (vid might not be safe for work as it involves a fat, shirtless powerlifter):

https://youtube.com/watch?v=sPxbYHh3caQ

Kelly Starrett, a sports DPT, on the other hand suggests as much as possible actively practicing a brace position involving abdominal contraction and external rotation of the hips and shoulders. Demonstrated here:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=uN642Z99TbA

This varies slightly from McGill's brace position, which involves depressing the shoulders rather than externally rotating the hips and shoulders, though he seems to only suggest it for weightroom movements. Demonstrated here:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=h3n8z1wy_SQ

And wrestlers and martial artists have done the "shake it loose" thing between bouts just about forever.

[taadski]

There's no dichotomy. For the most part in sports you want to be loose so you can move fast, but tight at critical moments for precise application of force.


Isn't that, by definition, a dichotomy? ;)


Seriously though…

Starrett's Youtube channel and his books are personal favorites. And I'm familiar with some of McGill's work but I had to go digging to re-read this abstract. How are you suggesting the Double Peak contraction concept applies to shooting?

[Tuesday]

Isn't that, by definition, a dichotomy? ;)


Seriously though…

Starrett's Youtube channel and his books are personal favorites. And I'm familiar with some of McGill's work but I had to go digging to re-read this abstract. How are you suggesting the Double Peak contraction concept applies to shooting?

It's more the idea that you can be loose when you need to be loose and tight when you need to be tight, even within a single movement, and that it might be worth practicing tightening in general or quickly tightening and relaxing in general. For exact applications to shooting, I think it'd be better to hook some GMs up to an EMG machine rather than to speculate.

[redbone]

Crossfit strikes again. He's trying to take stuff he learned at a Level 1 weekend seminar and apply it to shooting.

That's where this came from.

[Tuesday]

No. I never was interested in Crossfit. Even back in 2004 when I first encountered it the cult mentality was too off-putting and the way it was cribbed from wrestling conditioning too obvious. I like golf and my uncle is a pro golfer, which is where I picked this up originally. However, it seems to be a general principle in athletics. I'm sure Google Scholar can provide less-accessible sources if you prefer that level of discussion.

[redbone]

I wasn't talking about you.

I was talking about Jeff Gonzales and him wanting to activate the shoulders while shooting like he's getting ready to clean and jerk.

[Tuesday]

I wasn't talking about you.

I was talking about Jeff Gonzales and him wanting to activate the shoulders while shooting like he's getting ready to clean and jerk.

Sorry.

[Cheap Shot]

Crossfit strikes again. He's trying to take stuff he learned at a Level 1 weekend seminar and apply it to shooting.

That's where this came from.

Source?