AR - build or buy?

[part-time shooter]

I'm looking for opinions on ARs. I like to tinker with my guns, especially range guns, not so much the ones that travel with me often. I want to buy or build a nice AR carbine specifically for home defense, at least that's my current excuse.

Is it easier to just buy a solid base rifle and add a few parts or buy the lower and add specific items one at a time until I'm happy with it, which may be never.

For those that are seeing a lot of different ARs in courses etc, what brands are worth considering? or just buy a Daniel Defense M4 carbine, slap a Micro on it and call it a day? what items have you seen to specifically avoid?

Thanks in advance.

[gringop]

I've gone the "buy a stripped receiver and a kit and put it all together" route for 2 of my own ARs and for some of my friends.

While I saved some money to begin with, after replacing broken bolts, out of spec LPKs, bolt carriers and hand staking various gas keys and castle nuts, I really didn't come out ahead in the end.

If I could do it all over again, I'd just get a DD, BCM or Colt complete gun. The money I saved left me standing in a match with a broken gun many times. Good thing it was just a match.

It can be fun to put together an AR from a top of the line upper kit. But stay away from places like Model1Sales and Delton.

Price it out and see if it's cheaper. I'm guessing it won't save you much.

Gringop

[Lon]

Define "build". If by build you mean buy a complete upper from, say, DD or BCM and slap it on a complete lower from somewhere else, that is no big deal. If you mean actually build it by buying all the component parts then assembling it, I wouldn't do that unless you really know what you are doing if it is for defense purposes. BCM has lots of options when it comes to complete uppers.

[Argus]

I agree with xpd54. If it's for serious social purposes, I probably wouldn't DIY from a stripped upper/lower. Better to either buy a complete rifle, or a quality upper half and lower half and put them together.

Prices have come down and manufacturers have started offering some pretty nicely configured rifles these days. If you can find a stock configuration that you like, it probably makes the most sense to just buy a complete rifle. If not, buy a quality upper half from BCM, DD or Colt, slap it on a complete lower from somewhere else, and add the stock, rail, etc. of your choice.

[JConn]

I'll echo everyone else. I built mine from parts and it was a lot of fun, however it is purely for fun. I also ended up spending way too much money, because I have a thing about buying the best I can. In hindsight I would buy a complete upper and lower from a respected manufacturer and keep it as simple as possible, spend the rest on a good optic and ammo. I have not run my rifle hard yet, and I'm a little nervous about it.

[peterb]

I'm looking for opinions on ARs. I like to tinker with my guns, especially range guns, not so much the ones that travel with me often. I want to buy or build a nice AR carbine specifically for home defense, at least that's my current excuse.

Think of it this way: If you like to tinker with cars, you should still own one reputable, reliable vehicle that you trust. Once that's done, you're free to buy/build/modify anything that looks interesting.

[Jay Cunningham]

I'm looking for opinions on ARs. I like to tinker with my guns, especially range guns, not so much the ones that travel with me often. I want to buy or build a nice AR carbine specifically for home defense, at least that's my current excuse.

Is it easier to just buy a solid base rifle and add a few parts or buy the lower and add specific items one at a time until I'm happy with it, which may be never.

For those that are seeing a lot of different ARs in courses etc, what brands are worth considering? or just buy a Daniel Defense M4 carbine, slap a Micro on it and call it a day? what items have you seen to specifically avoid?

Thanks in advance.

My advice is to purchase a complete AR carbine from either Colt, Daniel Defense, Knight's Armament, BCM, or Noveske. Alternately you could buy an upper and lower from any of those companies and be fine, and probably save a few bucks.

Save your tinker gun for your second AR.

[Al T.]

specifically for home defense

If that's your primary criteria, buy that DD and RDS, get a light on it and train.

However for a second rifle, building is good as you really get to know the system. If you get your parts (and parts ain't parts) from reliable vendors, you can assemble a good rifle fairly inexpensively. Or as most do, spend a bit more and get higher quality specific parts.

[Chris_S]

I had looked at building my first AR for a while but, in the end, I kept finding that I could get an equal or better deal by hunting down a good deal on a Daniel Defense, BCM, or Colt than I could by buying good components. There's also something to be said for knowing a good manufacturer is standing behind the quality of the weapon and that there's someone there in the event something goes bad and it isn't my fault. With Riflegear and Buds selling Daniel Defense rifles in the $1200 range and a few places out there selling Colt 9620s in the $950 range, I can't see getting a better deal on the components without getting really lucky with sales. Top it off by knowing it was put together by someone who knows what they're doing and had a good QC department to pass through and I'm willing to just know how it works under the hood instead of needing to assemble it.

[vcdgrips]

"I'd just get a DD, BCM or Colt complete gun"-Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!!

[JRL]

"I'd just get a DD, BCM or Colt complete gun"-Winner Winner Chicken Dinner!!!

How do the M&P15's stack up against these?

[Jay Cunningham]

How do the M&P15's stack up against these?

They are good guns, but not quite in the same league.

[Al T.]

JRL, Pat Rogers has given the S&Ws his seal of approval.

[vcdgrips]

I, in fact, have a SW AR 15 after taking an Oct 08 class with Pat. I bought it based on his rec, that of the SW rep in my class and because it was the only thing decent I could find in March of 09 that was not 1800 shipped i.e. Colt 6920. If I could sell it for what I had in it, I would add a little bit more and buy one from the list above. It's carrier key stood to be a bit more staked but otherwise it seems to be well put together. It remains unfired as my Frankengun ( BM superlightwt upper armalite lower (circa 2003) is running stong at 4500 rounds. I am not much of a carbine shooter.

Bottom line- Knowing what I know today if I was in the market today at the sub 1100 pricepoint, I would go with BCM, DD, Noveske, or Colt, put on an Aimpoint, a Vikings Tactics light mount, a Surefire 200 Lumen basic light, a fairly basic sling set up and get to a class.

YMMV Greatly, David

[Odin Bravo One]

My meager contribution.

AR's built to a standard and at some point, issued to/purchased by DoD entities with high volume round counts on their agenda. Built to MilSpec (which does make a difference in AR's since there are not many people who have as many rounds down range through the AR family of rifles as the US Military. The people building these know a thing or two about it) These are also guns I would personally recommend to my friends and family:

Hk 416
Daniel Defense
Noveske Rifleworks
Colt
LMT
FN

Guns not purchased by DoD units, but built to a standard: (close to MilSpec)

BCM
LWRC
LaRue

Guns I would NOT buy if considering needing to use it to defend life, family, etc. Not built to any standard, or built to "secret" standards they are not interested in sharing with the public:

Bushmaster
Olympic
DPMS
Patriot Ordnance Factory (POF)

I know Pat has had good luck with the S&W M&P Rifles. I do not have enough experience with them to comment. I have a S&W M&P .22LR carbine that works great for what it is, and what it does..........but it's not really the same thing, or what we are talking about.

Now is a buyers market for AR's. Lots of high quality rifles for fair prices. Premium rifles still cost a premium penny, which make the Colt's and BCM's, DD, etc. look pretty attractive considering what you get for the price. You would be hard pressed to put something together remotely close to the quality, with the experience and technical know how of these companies for anywhere near the same price. Unless you buy from the third list.......in which case you could probably build one better.

[Blayglock]

Ive been going through the same thing. For a lower you probably already have the tools lying around but the upper will require some specialized tools in addition to parts. Ive also priced out a bunch of stuff.

I think I am going to just get this complete lower from Rainer:

http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=2746

And buy a complete upper form a reputable maker. Will save some money and have a good rifle.

[GNiner]

Sean

Where does Rock River fit on your lists? I am currently considering one of these but would like to know your thoughts on where they fit in on the quality spectrum.

[Failure2Stop]

Sean

Where does Rock River fit on your lists? I am currently considering one of these but would like to know your thoughts on where they fit in on the quality spectrum.

Obviously not SeanM, but. . .

For me they fall in the "no thanks" category. Lots of issues with tight chambers and lack of adherance to the commonly accepted minimum standard .

Seriously, you are going to pay about the same whether you go with one from the "approved" list or the "no so much" list.
Is there something that is drawing you to an RRA?

[DocGKR]

Sean M and F2F have given good advice.

The AR15's we have seen that typically run well include: Colt, BCM, Centurian, DD, FN, LaRue, LMT, Noveske (as long as it has a true 5.56mm chamber); the best piston gun is the HK416 followed distantly by the LWRC M6 series. The S&W's seem to run well, but we have not seen as many of them. MSTN custom uppers work very nicely.

We have seen consistent problems with a number of rifles, including Oly, DPMS, Bushmaster, POF, Rock River, and all the other vendors offering low end, bottom feeder, out of spec weapons, as well as piston add-ons.

[Al T.]

Blayglock, PSA has about the same package a bit less money. I note the Ranier has the Timney trigger. If this is going to be a fun gun only, match triggers are fine. IMHO and IME, anything more serious, stay with standard triggers.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/1619.php

[DocGKR]

For any kind of duty or self-defense use stay with a standard trigger; for a sniper/DMR/SPR type rifle a Geissele trigger is the way to go.

[Odin Bravo One]

F2S hit the nail on the head...........Rock River falls into the "No thanks" category. At one time they had a decent product........not sure what happened, but they suck now.

And I will double tap what Doc and Al have already mentioned. If the gun is meant for any sort of serious work, then stick to a MilSpec trigger. Match triggers are good for match accuracy out of match grade guns. They don't hold up over long term high volume use.

Of course, all of this said..........if you are looking for a gun that will see no more than maybe 5k in a lifetime of shooting, in the form of 100 rounds every 3 or 4 months, some of the "No thanks" rifles will do fine.

But why? When you can buy guns off the "Yeah, I'd shoot that gun" list for about the same price.................

[GNiner]

F2S, Sean, DocGKR

Thanks for the heads up on the Rock River. Sounds like I was given erroneous or "old" advice. An neighbor of mine works for a Sheriffs department and said his RO told him to buy a Colt or RR. And he said that Colt was going to be using some MIM parts in the future so to get one from immediate inventory if I went that route.

Sounds like I need to spend more time at PF.com and less time listening to my neighbor. Thanks again for the advice and thanks to Mr Green for providing the forum where true experts can share their knowledge. Fortunately I can afford to buy the quality products and don't have to settle for a "starter" AR - in my case it is just total ignorance on which mfg's make the quality products.

[Odin Bravo One]

I know nothing of what Colt might or might not be replacing. But Colt still makes the M4 for the DoD. As long as they are making them to MilSpec, it is cheaper for them to build all of their guns the same way. Which is why Colt has been such a good deal buy, getting a gun you know was built to spec at a decent price. Also, Colt cannot take it upon themselves to change the MilStd. If they bring in non MilSpec parts to use in Civilian guns, they need to be very careful they don't end up in MilSpec guns.......not something I would want to worry about if I was in charge of QA/QC.

Bushmaster learned a hard and painful lesson about getting awarded a DoD contract, then using non-MilSpec parts and claiming they did. (Also why Bushmaster is among the bottom feeders, shitty product combined with lack of intergrity). The end result was Bushmaster's contract with DoD being voided, and ordered to return the original MilSpec design drawings, and to never claim to build to MilStd again.

Not something I see Colt wanting to tempt fate with by using different parts for Civ and Mil guns.

However, my standard disclaimer is that I have been wrong before. On multiple occasions, about a multitude of topics. I could be wrong here too.

[YVK]

AR's built to a standard and at some point, issued to/purchased by DoD entities with high volume round counts on their agenda.

Hk 416
Daniel Defense
Noveske Rifleworks
Colt
LMT
FN



Noveske and DD have been bought/issued by DoD? This is just a curiosity question. I know DD supplies components, didn't know about complete weapons.

[Odin Bravo One]

DD and Noveske provide/provided complete uppers to drop onto existing Colt and other MilSpec lowers in the DoD inventory.