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pdb
10-28-2011, 06:13 PM
You may have to have a Facebook account to view this, but I wanted y'all's opinion:

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=299051353456796

So apparently if you're doing a one handed reload from slidelock, he advocates getting the slide back into battery by hitting it with the bottom of your boot.

I do not question that it works, the pistol does indeed go into battery. But wouldn't it be a lot faster and easier to use the slide release lever? Unless you're looking for additional opportunities to risk putting a bullet into your leg or foot, I don't see what this offers me. If I can't get to the slide stop, I can think of at least two other ways to accomplish this without standing around on one foot during a fight.

I generally agree with the aphorism of "another tool in the box." But I don't have a can of silly string in my toolbox, either.

JV_
10-28-2011, 06:18 PM
But wouldn't it be a lot faster and easier to use the slide release lever? Unless you're looking for additional opportunities to risk putting a bullet into your leg or foot, I don't see what this offers me. If I can't get to the slide stop, I can think of at least two other ways to accomplish this without standing around on one foot during a fight.

FWIW: I use my belt.

Tamara
10-28-2011, 07:59 PM
228


One of the things that I've seen work really reliably...

...is to how about use the fucking slide stop?

Jesus wept! "If only there were some way to drop the slide on this pistol with only one hand!"

"I think an octagon is a really swell shape for a wheel!"

Tamara
10-28-2011, 08:06 PM
PS: I want three minutes and seven seconds of my life back.

pdb
10-28-2011, 08:26 PM
PS: I want three minutes and seven seconds of my life back.

Blame Caleb.

Dropkick
10-29-2011, 09:56 AM
I'm a fan of the karate-chop myself. :p

KeeFus
10-29-2011, 10:05 AM
I'm a fan of the karate-chop myself. :p

Sorry, couldn't resist...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2U-ZQMf56I

DannyZRC
10-29-2011, 03:36 PM
The slide release is a fine motor skill, you need a gross motor skill like riverdance in a dynamic critical incident.

eta> this was supposed to be allcaps. damn you filter, damn you.

Al T.
10-29-2011, 04:39 PM
The slide release is a fine motor skill

Danny, Todd has an excellent point about this subject. Essentially, anything you do with your hands is a fine motor skill, like working the safety, pulling the trigger, aligning the firearm with your eye, etc., etc.

The overhand slide release technique comes into it's own when gloves are worn.

jetfire
10-29-2011, 05:22 PM
I'm pretty sure Danny was joking.

DannyZRC
10-29-2011, 05:36 PM
I'm pretty sure Danny was joking.

me too.

Abraxas
10-29-2011, 05:43 PM
228



...is to how about use the fucking slide stop?

Jesus wept! "If only there were some way to drop the slide on this pistol with only one hand!"

"I think an octagon is a really swell shape for a wheel!"

This!

gtmtnbiker98
10-29-2011, 07:00 PM
Blame Caleb.
Yeah, I had a WTF moment when browsing FB and reading and watching Caleb's post.

JDM
10-29-2011, 07:18 PM
Sorry, couldn't resist...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2U-ZQMf56I

Jokes aside, there was a fairly proficient shooter in this years AFHF NM class that, no bull shit, karate chopped the ejection port to release the slide after a reload. It was of questionable effectiveness at getting a bullet in the chamber (lots of TRBs) but the exchange between Todd and the student regarding this particular method- Hilarious.

MechEng
10-29-2011, 08:41 PM
I think Rob just plan forgot to mention, in that scenario, he got his strong side thumb shot off.

ToddG
10-30-2011, 06:58 AM
The slide release is a fine motor skill, you need a gross motor skill like riverdance in a dynamic critical incident.

That's sig-worthy right there.

David Armstrong
11-01-2011, 09:40 AM
I generally agree with the aphorism of "another tool in the box." But I don't have a can of silly string in my toolbox, either.

Totally off the thread here, but has anyone else seen the "tactical" silly string that you can use to detect trip wires?:eek:

JAD
11-01-2011, 12:28 PM
Totally off the thread here, but has anyone else seen the "tactical" silly string that you can use to detect trip wires?:eek:
That would go nicely with my tactical laser beam detectors:
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTMFvjNerLn1_kszKWoKsnGv0aQTqUEl ZBW1VvAIBZ_tqmz7qWoNw
[j/k -- I put those away a couple of years ago. Not enough lasers in my life]

Skold
11-01-2011, 04:49 PM
Is there any videos of him explaining why in the hell he doesnt just use his thumb to drop the slide??????

TR675
11-01-2011, 05:13 PM
If there's any evidence better than youtube/FB/other social media supporting draconian gun control, I don't know what it is.

pdb
11-01-2011, 09:18 PM
Is there any videos of him explaining why in the hell he doesnt just use his thumb to drop the slide??????

From the Fazeboog thread:



Rob Pincus: Yeah, that lever works great on a square range or in an IDPA Match... but, MAYBE not in a real fight or after a malf or if the holstering/pocketing of the gun knocks the slide forward... (note the big "maybe"... not worth betting your life on.)


I'm really not sure what kind of quantum change happens in a "real fight" that doesn't happen on a range or match. I'm sure it's related to the "always rack the slide" school of thought that seems to have been descended through Yeagerites. But there's more to go wrong doing a overhand slide-sling than just pressing the slide stop lever (riding the slide forward, inability to get a good grip on the slide, activating the safety on a Beretta or S&W).

I'd still like to hear a good reason to do this. I think people are way overthinking this.

Skold
11-01-2011, 09:24 PM
From the Fazeboog thread:



Rob Pincus: Yeah, that lever works great on a square range or in an IDPA Match... but, MAYBE not in a real fight or after a malf or if the holstering/pocketing of the gun knocks the slide forward... (note the big "maybe"... not worth betting your life on.)


I'm really not sure what kind of quantum change happens in a "real fight" that doesn't happen on a range or match. I'm sure it's related to the "always rack the slide" school of thought that seems to have been descended through Yeagerites. But there's more to go wrong doing a overhand slide-sling than just pressing the slide stop lever (riding the slide forward, inability to get a good grip on the slide, activating the safety on a Beretta or S&W).

I'd still like to hear a good reason to do this. I think people are way overthinking this.

I really dont understang how he can justify actually kicking the pistol with is foot to put the gun back into battery as opposed to using the slide lock lever that is designed to drop the slide. How is that even logical in any way????????

Tamara
11-02-2011, 02:22 PM
Rob Pincus: Yeah, that lever works great on a square range or in an IDPA Match... but, MAYBE not in a real fight or after a malf or if the holstering/pocketing of the gun knocks the slide forward... (note the big "maybe"... not worth betting your life on.)

So, my thumb and fingers are smart enough to work the magazine release and do a complex one-handed reload under stress, but they're going to have a sudden case of brain fade when the time comes to trip the slide stop? Or did I drop the mag by head-butting the mag release button?

How come the slide stop is THE ONLY CONTROL ON THE GUN that these people believe cannot be properly operated outside the confines of the pistol bay at my local range? :rolleyes:

TGS
11-02-2011, 07:04 PM
So, my thumb and fingers are smart enough to work the magazine release and do a complex one-handed reload under stress, but they're going to have a sudden case of brain fade when the time comes to trip the slide stop? Or did I drop the mag by head-butting the mag release button?

How come the slide stop is THE ONLY CONTROL ON THE GUN that these people believe cannot be properly operated outside the confines of the pistol bay at my local range? :rolleyes:

Written by Rob Pincus:
"No Tam, you're missing the point... almost completely.

It isn't about what you "can do", it is about what you "might screw up". Don't obsess over technique, look at fundamental principles:
- Grosser motor skills instead of finer motor skills when you can.
- train for the worst case scenario, not for when things go perfectly
-Choose techniques that work over the broadest spectrum of plausible circumstances
etc, etc.... If we could find a grosser way to fire the gun that didn't increase deviation, I'd be in favor of it... but, for now, we have pressing the trigger. When it comes to getting the gun back into battery, we have grosser options than the slide stop/lock lever.
Also, that lever ins't even an option on a PPK, a P7 or ANY Semi auto with the slide forward... so, if I rely on it *sometimes*, I need another option in a "worser" case scenario, which is bad and takes more training time, more reps, decision making, etc, etc."

Is this guy for real? Does he listen to himself, ever? I'd like to see him kick a closed slide on the move, with a rate of speed in his movements that actually serves a purpose. With the lack of speed he showed in that video, he might as well just stand and deliver. Or, here's a novel idea......Instead of playing ninja gunfighter warrior man in the open with a wounded arm, how about making a concerted effort to move to that cover and THEN fix your problem?

I can't believe he's bringing up simplicity of manipulation and simplicity of training as supporting arguments.

Le Français
11-02-2011, 07:14 PM
Edited due to a quoted passage having been retracted.

TGS
11-02-2011, 07:23 PM
This is uncalled for. Whatever techniques he employs, and however much you disagree with him on such points, there is no reason for such a inappropriate display of anger.

I'm not angered by the difference in technique. I'm angered that he is completely full of himself and "justifying" his sermon with contradicting theory and kinda blew off Tam. Kick the slide all day, but at least make sense when you talk down to people. Comments that make sense deserve a rebuttal that makes sense.

Mods, if it's inappropriate, then delete those last two lines. I'm not a mod or forum owner thus I don't care about being PC to self-righteous jerks.

YVK
11-02-2011, 07:29 PM
This is uncalled for. Whatever techniques he employs, and however much you disagree with him on such points, there is no reason for such an inappropriate display of anger.

Agreed. TGS, dude, I know you mean well, and we do get passionate about things and stuff, but I would edit that post of yours. I couldn't care less what Rob Pincus has to say, btw.

P.S. I guess we were typing at the same time.

TGS
11-02-2011, 07:34 PM
Agreed. TGS, dude, I know you mean well, and we do get passionate about things and stuff, but I would edit that post of yours. I couldn't care less what Rob Pincus has to say, btw.

P.S. I guess we were typing at the same time.

Thanks, edited.

Tamara
11-02-2011, 07:45 PM
TGS,

I know Rob. I've known Rob a long time. I consider Rob a friend, but this just strikes me as one of those situations where somebody discovered a "Hey, neat-o!" thing on the range and tried to back-track it into a valid technique, and then got invested in their defense of it. It happens.

"If A, then B, and then you'd totally be set up to do C!"

"But what about X?"

"Get off of my cloud!"

jslaker
11-02-2011, 07:47 PM
I'm kind of stumped as to how jumping around one one foot when your other hand is apparently incapacitated or otherwise preoccupied qualifies as a simpler motion.

TGS
11-02-2011, 07:56 PM
"Get off of my cloud!"

Lol. Received.

SteveK
11-02-2011, 09:56 PM
AH, the Muay Thai reload, whoda thunk it....

Failure2Stop
11-02-2011, 11:03 PM
I'm kind of stumped as to how jumping around one one foot when your other hand is apparently incapacitated or otherwise preoccupied qualifies as a simpler motion.

This is what lept to my mind.
I am painfully reminded of a recent force on force event in which I intended to stand up from a chair and rapidly move laterally and for some odd reason wound up on the ground on my right shoulder. Sub-optimal, and I'm pretty good at walking.

mnealtx
11-02-2011, 11:04 PM
AH, the Muay Thai reload, whoda thunk it....

"Sweep the leg^H^H^H slide, Johnny"

joshs
11-03-2011, 10:30 AM
I'm kind of stumped as to how jumping around one one foot when your other hand is apparently incapacitated or otherwise preoccupied qualifies as a simpler motion.

Because it's not simpler, it's grosser . . . His point to Tam seems to be that no matter how much more complex something is, as long as it's "grosser" it's better. I also think it's strange that he mentions that the slide release will not work if the slide is forward because I don't see how the "kick the slide" technique works for a slide forward reload either. Perhaps for slide forward reloads he goes full ninja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xfYtZOz81c).

JMS
11-03-2011, 02:46 PM
There was a Monty Python skit about this, where the self-defense instructor is advocating that the students release the tiger or drop the 16-ton weight on whichever opponent is attacking them with pomegranites, baskets of grapes and the like, then gets all bent when one student asks "what about pointed sticks?"

SamuelBLong
11-03-2011, 03:08 PM
Jokes aside, there was a fairly proficient shooter in this years AFHF NM class that, no bull shit, karate chopped the ejection port to release the slide after a reload. It was of questionable effectiveness at getting a bullet in the chamber (lots of TRBs) but the exchange between Todd and the student regarding this particular method- Hilarious.

That was pretty hilarious. It was almost as funny as Jimmy and Jordan looking at each other in the action / reaction drill after both realized they had empty guns.

As for me... I think Ill keep my SHO/WHO rack off the pants or belt rather than try any of that fanciness.

fuse
11-03-2011, 03:56 PM
Perhaps for slide forward reloads he goes full ninja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xfYtZOz81c).

What in the shit

Mind is blown

rsa-otc
11-03-2011, 04:47 PM
Perhaps for slide forward reloads he goes full ninja (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xfYtZOz81c).

Thats what I call a lite recoil spring. Still OMG!

Kevin B.
11-03-2011, 08:56 PM
I had the misfortune of being without the use of my right hand for about a year. I learned quite a bit about running a gun one-handed during that time.

Up until now I thought I had tried every technique out there. Obviously, I was mistaken...

joshs
11-03-2011, 09:39 PM
Thats what I call a lite recoil spring. Still OMG!

Actually, it's just really good technique and strength. He can do it with stock guns too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyGUYjCruY&feature=fvsr).

fuse
11-04-2011, 12:06 AM
Actually, it's just really good technique and strength. He can do it with stock guns too (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyGUYjCruY&feature=fvsr).

I don't know what the fuck that is, but it's not human.

Kill it.

Smaug
11-05-2011, 04:01 PM
I've done some dry practice with the slide kick technique and strangely enough I didn't find it to be quite as easy as it looked in the video. A lot of the time my foot glanced off the slide, or even missed it entirely. This was particularly common when I tried to do it left handed and/or while moving, especially and the sort of speed I imagine I'd be moving at if I were in a fight and both my gun and one of my arms had stopped working.

It may have something to do with my lack of practice, short arms and apathy towards ball sports, but I don't find backwards-kicking myself in the hand to be a particularly natural, easy or intuitive action. I suppose it must just be me though since, as we all know, fine motor skills, such as operating a click pen, are inherently more difficult to perform under stress than gross motor skills, such as performing a backflip.

Still; if I ever find myself in a situation where I need to reload a slide release-less pistol (which I somehow have spare mags for), one of my arms is unavailable (injured, occupied, amputated, etc.) I'm dressed in a manner that makes it impossible for me to snag the rear sight on my belt, holster, waistband or pocket (e.g. my Simpsons PJs, a dress (if I were a transvestite), my birthday suit, etc.), I can't find a stationary object to snag the rear sight on and one of my legs is free, this might be a good idea. Of course in a true worst case scenario my legs wouldn't be available either but I guess some scenarios are so unlikely they're not worth worrying about.

David Armstrong
11-05-2011, 04:05 PM
From the Fazeboog thread:



Rob Pincus: Yeah, that lever works great on a square range or in an IDPA Match... but, MAYBE not in a real fight or after a malf or if the holstering/pocketing of the gun knocks the slide forward... (note the big "maybe"... not worth betting your life on.)


I'm really not sure what kind of quantum change happens in a "real fight" that doesn't happen on a range or match. I'm sure it's related to the "always rack the slide" school of thought that seems to have been descended through Yeagerites. But there's more to go wrong doing a overhand slide-sling than just pressing the slide stop lever (riding the slide forward, inability to get a good grip on the slide, activating the safety on a Beretta or S&W).

I'd still like to hear a good reason to do this. I think people are way overthinking this.

Without getting a dog into this fight, for clarification purposes John Farnam was teaching "always rack the slide" long before Yeager or any of that generation of trainers came along. AFAIK he is still teaching it and IMO makes a reasoned argument for it.

Maple Syrup Actual
11-05-2011, 10:25 PM
I've done some dry practice with the slide kick technique and strangely enough I didn't find it to be quite as easy as it looked in the video. A lot of the time my foot glanced off the slide, or even missed it entirely. This was particularly common when I tried to do it left handed and/or while moving, especially and the sort of speed I imagine I'd be moving at if I were in a fight and both my gun and one of my arms had stopped working.

It may have something to do with my lack of practice, short arms and apathy towards ball sports, but I don't find backwards-kicking myself in the hand to be a particularly natural, easy or intuitive action. I suppose it must just be me though since, as we all know, fine motor skills, such as operating a click pen, are inherently more difficult to perform under stress than gross motor skills, such as performing a backflip.

Still; if I ever find myself in a situation where I need to reload a slide release-less pistol (which I somehow have spare mags for), one of my arms is unavailable (injured, occupied, amputated, etc.) I'm dressed in a manner that makes it impossible for me to snag the rear sight on my belt, holster, waistband or pocket (e.g. my Simpsons PJs, a dress (if I were a transvestite), my birthday suit, etc.), I can't find a stationary object to snag the rear sight on and one of my legs is free, this might be a good idea. Of course in a true worst case scenario my legs wouldn't be available either but I guess some scenarios are so unlikely they're not worth worrying about.
Best post I have seen on this or any other forum in a very long time.


Anyway to make a comment on the "technique" itself...yeah, a bit silly. I would guess this is the byproduct of a guy with a high degree of physical fitness and, I'm guessing, fairly extensive martial arts training, getting a little too engrossed in his physical abilities, and not putting quite enough of a priority on realistic application probability.

Although I would further guess that if Rob Pincus were asked directly about it, he would probably be the first to admit it's an action with...limited applications. I can't imagine a situation in which I would find this the most useful approach to dropping the slide, but I will accept that, IN THEORY, the slide can be dropped in this manner. I suppose if you wear loose, baggy track suits and carry in a shoulder holster, and for whatever reason think you deserve to keep living, well, maybe this will help.

ToddG
11-06-2011, 11:00 AM
I suppose it must just be me though since, as we all know, fine motor skills, such as operating a click pen, are inherently more difficult to perform under stress than gross motor skills, such as performing a backflip.

I <3 U

(which just seemed so much nicer than, "I'm going to use this line so many times that two years from now I'll forget I got it from you and will think I came up with it myself.")

Maple Syrup Actual
11-06-2011, 05:26 PM
definitely a killer line, has been filed in my brain for future trademark infringement/intellectual property theft

Smaug
11-07-2011, 04:19 PM
I'm honored :o

Laughingdog
11-07-2011, 05:10 PM
I had the misfortune of being without the use of my right hand for about a year. I learned quite a bit about running a gun one-handed during that time.

Up until now I thought I had tried every technique out there. Obviously, I was mistaken...


I've been without my left for a couple months, so I'm right there with you in being a little....amazed.. at his unique method.

I will say the back of a cast makes a great slide racker. I've also become very fond of my P30L during this stretch.

TCinVA
11-07-2011, 09:16 PM
254

I'm convinced.

Argus
11-07-2011, 09:57 PM
254

I'm convinced.

Ah yes, the Ministry of Silly Reloads