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BLR
10-27-2011, 12:40 PM
Been a quite follower of Todd for quite some time. That said, I'm also a 1911 junkie, and furthermore a Wilson and Colt disciple.

Since hearing about the Triple Nickel, I've been training/practicing to get there consistently with this gun: An early 2000's CQB purchased new.

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/2011-10-25_16-17-32_781.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/2011-10-25_16-18-02_259.jpg

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/2011-10-25_16-41-28_330.jpg

And, yep, tightly fitted 1911s can run dirty too:

http://i390.photobucket.com/albums/oo345/blriehl/2011-10-25_16-38-23_794.jpg

I have to say, from a content perspective, this forum and Todd's site are amazing.

Thanks Todd,

Bill

YVK
10-27-2011, 01:14 PM
CQB is a great gun. Never owned one, but handled many.

Re TripNick: every test that requires a reload kicks my butt if I run it with a 1911. Until I started shooting double stacks, I never realized how less forgiving the 1911s are in that regard.

jetfire
10-27-2011, 04:13 PM
Never again will I run a "serious" 1911 that doesn't have a mag funnel on it.

BLR
10-27-2011, 05:52 PM
I have "serious" 1911s with and without. The S&A is easily my favorite.

With or without, my hangup is usually a front of the well "hit." Unless I did one of those huge IPSC funnels, I doubt I'd really pick up much time.

DocGKR
10-27-2011, 06:23 PM
I know a couple of very serious 1911 shooters who no longer choose to use mag "funnels" on 1911's after being in situations where mag wells were bumped and bent, preventing magazine changes. These guys don't just shoot on a one way range...

JonInWA
10-27-2011, 06:41 PM
Agreed-on my Nighthawk Custom Talon II build, I specified "No magazine funnels." What Nighthawk did was to bevel all interior sides (including the inner frontstrap)-and then credited me for the magwell deletion, which I thought was a nice gesture.

Best, Jon

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Nighthawk%20Talon%20II/NightTalonII001.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Nighthawk%20Talon%20II/NightTalonII004.jpg

http://i986.photobucket.com/albums/ae343/JonInWA/Nighthawk%20Talon%20II/NightTalonII011.jpg

jetfire
10-27-2011, 07:19 PM
For me, "serious" = "competition". I can honestly say that after all the shooting I did last year with 1911s, I won't carry one.

Tamara
10-27-2011, 08:29 PM
I know a couple of very serious 1911 shooters who no longer choose to use mag "funnels" on 1911's after being in situations where mag wells were bumped and bent, preventing magazine changes. These guys don't just shoot on a one way range...

I've got nothing but respect for your opinions, Doc, but I'll say this: I've been carrying the same Springer Pro for practically a decade now. Compared to the gun pictured by the OP, my pistol looks like it's been dragged behind a truck and then stomped into a mudhole*. Now, I don't jump out of helicopters with a knife in my teeth for a living; the harshest environment my pistol will see is the mall parking lot outside the food court entrance, and the occasional pistol class, and thus far the S&A magwell has held up just fine.

*Because I stomped it into a mudhole once to prove a point... ;)

YVK
10-27-2011, 09:09 PM
I know a couple of very serious 1911 shooters who no longer choose to use mag "funnels" on 1911's after being in situations where mag wells were bumped and bent, preventing magazine changes. These guys don't just shoot on a one way range...

I wonder if anybody has had a similar problem with that take-down tool that resides in a backstrap of an M&P. I know it can be twisted sideways and block the entrance, but I am not familiar with M&Ps enough to know if this is possible during the use.

Back to 1911, I'd imagine this is a matter of personal experience and exposure. I just recently handled a replica of a working 1911 that belongs to a Sgt.-Maj. (ret.) of 1st SFOD-D. The original piece has been taken into a harm's way and used there. That pistol had, among other unusual things, a magwell on it. I know you've seen that pistol too.

Having said that, I personally prefer integral magwells like Stan Chen's Magwell Suite, for exactly the same reason.

DocGKR
10-27-2011, 09:35 PM
Caleb: "Serious" = peoples lives are at stake.

YVK: Never seen it happen on the M&P, but if it did occur, it would take less than a second to fix.

Tamara: Take that same 1911 on a combat deployment while getting in and out of armored vehicles, fast-roping out of helicopers, perform VBSS while banging into steel bulkheads and passageways, roll over onto your side with 200+ lbs crushing down on the pistol butt.

Here is a comment on S&A magwells from the recently retired, combat experienced, senior SOF NCO behind the C&S Trident 1911:


"The Trident doesn't have a magwell because...I was building a couple identical Caspian 1911's for two friends and was putting S&A magwells on them both. I had them all blended into the frames and everything and was taking them out to test fire them both in the white. I shot the first gun...no problems. Dropped the mag and started with the other...Shot two rounds (that's all that was loaded) and couldn't drop the magazine. I couldn't pull, tap, or halfway hammer the mag out. WT$? I tore the gun apart around the inserted empty mag (boy, was that fun). Tried to tap the magazine out from the top of the frame. No luck. I finally figured out that the magwell had one of its sides pushed over a slight bit and had crimped on the magazine base. It was most likely from a trip to the vise at one point or another, but who knows for sure? My bad, but for grins I pinched another S&A magwell I had and could feel it move. Yikes!!! I had never realized how easy it was to move those things. I tried to imagine how I would have gotten that pistol in action if something like that had happened in the field. That kind of swore me off of them for combat use."

ADKilla
10-27-2011, 10:04 PM
Been through all of the above without a mag well on my pistol.

My personally owned CQB-C has no mag well...in fact none of my hard use 1911s have them.

Dagga Boy
10-27-2011, 10:19 PM
Of my three MARS Armament 1911's:

My original THUG has both a magwell and a standard MSP housing and can be interchanged. I usually run it with the magwell in place.

My AXIOM was originally built as a duty gun for uniformed L/E duty. I ended up getting medically retired and it was given to me by the Police Officers Association as a retirement gift. I does not have a mag well because getting in and out of vehicles constantly bangs the crap out of the gun.

My latest gun is set up as a daily carry gun and for private sector work. Most of which is concealed it has a small magwell combined with 10-8 base pads and it really is a stellar combo. I just ran it through the 10-8 Duty 1911 class and it ran like a sewing machine. I changed the way I was reloading after some coaching and ended up butchering both reloads in the shoot off, and I lost my round by breath......just proves that even good equipment can't fix stupid. Mission drives the gear train.

mnealtx
10-27-2011, 10:22 PM
Wasn't there a smith a while back that would cut away the bottom of the frame so that the grip panels made a type of magwell?

Would something like that (with appropriate grips, obviously) be an acceptable substitute for a 'true' magwell?

SecondsCount
10-27-2011, 10:53 PM
I have never owned a 1911 with a magwell but I think that if I were to go that route it would probably be something like Stan Chen's design. (http://store.chencustom.com/Chen_Magwell_Suite_s/23.htm)

It is welded on and the grip length remains close to the original dimensions. Costly but worth it for the serious folks.

YVK
10-28-2011, 12:42 AM
Here is a comment on S&A magwells from the recently retired, combat experienced, senior SOF NCO behind the C&S Trident 1911:

Yep. I am just reflecting on how people's choices,even when talking pros, are strongly dependent on their personal experiences. D. have seen this and wouldn't put SA on his Trident; P-Mac hasn't seen this and has that magwell on his 1911.

Nighthawk has recently introduced their version of SA design. It is machined from a single piece of steel and I wonder if it'll be more solid than original SA offering. http://www.nighthawkcustom.com/detail.aspx?ID=199

Both of my personal 1911s have a Stan Chen's MSH, without full suite, since I prefer running Crimson Trace Lasergrips - which are another example of mixed experiences. I've had nothing but great service life out of 3 units I have owned; others report problems with zero retention and laser lens fogging.

Tamara
10-28-2011, 06:01 AM
Tamara: Take that same 1911 on a combat deployment while getting in and out of armored vehicles, fast-roping out of helicopers, perform VBSS while banging into steel bulkheads and passageways, roll over onto your side with 200+ lbs crushing down on the pistol butt.
Right, and if there were any chance at all that I'd be banging my pistol into the hatch of an LAV, that would be a concern, but that is never going to happen to my 1911, nor will it to the original poster's, nor 99.9999999etc.% of CCW toters in the U.S. The pistol in the Safariland 6004 and the pistol in the Sparks VM-2 lead very different lives.

A more plausible argument against magwells, in the context of the average CCW carrier, is that they make the gun harder to conceal, not that they might crush the magwell while attempting to exfil the AO of the IT department. ;)

(FWIW, I don't prefer magwells, but not enough to ditch the one on the Pro. None of my other 1911s have one, and if I were to suddenly start using them, I'd go with low-profile cut-and-weld, instead of the S&A...)

KevH
10-28-2011, 07:43 AM
I'm with Doc on this one. I had an S&A mag well on two previous guns (Berryhill Kimber and SA Pro) and now the two 1911's I still have do not wear one.

By adding an S&A magwell (or those like it) you are adding bulk, weight and the extra chance for something to go wrong. I've only seen one S&A magwell that got tweaked enough to cause an issue, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen to me at some point in the future and make the gun bonk when I need it the most.

The problem with the Briley, Heinie, old Ed Brown or any other weld on design is that they generally make stripping your old or stuck mag out very difficult. The last thing I need in a double feed is to make a gun that is usually very easy to strip mags out of very difficult.

For me the reward of add-on magwells isn't worth the risk. A properly beveled magwell to me is a good compromise.

TGS
10-28-2011, 09:53 AM
Right, and if there were any chance at all that I'd be banging my pistol into the hatch of an LAV, that would be a concern, but that is never going to happen to my 1911, nor will it to the original poster's, nor 99.9999999etc.% of CCW toters in the U.S. The pistol in the Safariland 6004 and the pistol in the Sparks VM-2 lead very different lives.

A more plausible argument against magwells, in the context of the average CCW carrier, is that they make the gun harder to conceal, not that they might crush the magwell while attempting to exfil the AO of the IT department. ;)

(FWIW, I don't prefer magwells, but not enough to ditch the one on the Pro. None of my other 1911s have one, and if I were to suddenly start using them, I'd go with low-profile cut-and-weld, instead of the S&A...)

Well maybe not exfil the AO of the IT department, but how about getting assaulted and shoved against a wall, car, other hard object, or going to the ground and wrasslin' it out on pavement? You know, those situations a gun is made for.

Tamara
10-28-2011, 10:00 AM
Well maybe not exfil the AO of the IT department, but how about getting assaulted and shoved against a wall, car, other hard object, or going to the ground and wrasslin' it out on pavement? You know, those situations a gun is made for.

TGS,

When I say that I have stomped the pistol into a mudhole, I am not using it as a figure of speech. The gun has been between my bootheel and the ground. More than once.

ToddG
10-28-2011, 10:48 AM
The gun has been between my bootheel and the ground. More than once.

Finally, the respect a 1911 deserves!

DocGKR
10-28-2011, 10:54 AM
Natural earth is a lot softer than steel bulkheads or armor on military vehicles. Likewise, placing your heel on a pistol is different than having 200 lbs combat personnel loaded with up to an additional 100 lbs of gear smashing down on their exposed pistol butt. Fundamentally, my entry into this topic was simply predicated on a miscommunication. Caleb stated: "Never again will I run a "serious" 1911 that doesn't have a mag funnel on it." The word SERIOUS turns out to have different definitions for each of us. Caleb went on to clarify that for him, "serious" = "competition". For me competition guns are fun game guns with NO serious role. In my world, a serious firearm is one subjected to harsh duty conditions yet MUST still function reliably or someone will die or be seriously injured.

jetfire
10-28-2011, 11:10 AM
Competition shooting is a big part of how I pay my bills, so that's pretty serious to me. ;-)

Tamara
10-28-2011, 11:52 AM
Natural earth is a lot softer than steel bulkheads or armor on military vehicles. Likewise, placing your heel on a pistol is different than having 200 lbs combat personnel loaded with up to an additional 100 lbs of gear smashing down on their exposed pistol butt.

Indeed. And it's definitely possible to tweak one enough to obstruct the magazine well opening; I've done it (deliberately, in the name of curiosity) with both a steel hammer and by squeezing one in a vice. While the second is hard to duplicate outside of the shop, the first could be replicated by the pistol swinging around in a thigh holster and smacking a deck or hatch coaming.

I was merely pointing up that it's hard (if not impossible) to generate those kinds of forces against a pistol carried IWB in civilian life; simply falling on the holstered gun won't do it, as if the pistol is tucked in tight against the carrier and most likely covered by some kind of garment, any blow that would accelerate the entire waistline of the person against asphalt hard enough to deform steel would have me wondering "Will I walk again?" or "I wonder how much black market kidneys are going for these days?" and not "Might I have a hard time reloading?"

I think that, for the civilian CCW carrier, the hit against concealability caused by adding to the length of the pistol butt is a far more pertinent reason to reject the S&A-type magwell.

That and I prefer the slightly lower-profile steel basepads on my 1911s, and I have to be careful to keep the magazines segregated since those won't work in the Pro, (as I was reminded at an Awerbuck course a couple of years ago when half the magazines I threw in the range bag on the morning of TD1 were the wrong frickin' ones. :o )

DocGKR
10-28-2011, 01:37 PM
Concur with all you have stated. FWIW, I am a big fan of the SA Pro--it is one of the few semi-custom 1911's I can wholeheartedly recommend: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887.

johnemckenzie
10-28-2011, 03:55 PM
Finally, the respect a 1911 deserves!

Todd, why do you love to hate 1911's? :D

ToddG
10-28-2011, 04:00 PM
Todd, why do you love to hate 1911's? :D

I'm fairly certain it comes naturally with having a triple digit IQ.

:eek:

JAD
10-28-2011, 04:30 PM
I'm fairly certain it comes naturally with having a triple digit IQ.

:eek:
The zero doesn't count if it's at the front.

ToddG
10-28-2011, 04:36 PM
The zero doesn't count if it's at the front.

Mommy said it does!

JAD
10-28-2011, 04:49 PM
Mommy said it does!
Mine always said, Pogo, come in here and check me for lumps. Holy shit -- was that out loud?

G60
10-28-2011, 05:38 PM
I wonder if anybody has had a similar problem with that take-down tool that resides in a backstrap of an M&P. I know it can be twisted sideways and block the entrance, but I am not familiar with M&Ps enough to know if this is possible during the use.


That could happen with an m&p, but as the magazine base pad blocks rotation of the takedown tool, it could only rotate enough to block the well while a magazine is not in the pistol.

CCK
10-29-2011, 03:48 PM
That could happen with an m&p, but as the magazine base pad blocks rotation of the takedown tool, it could only rotate enough to block the well while a magazine is not in the pistol.

Which for a defensive pistol should be almost never.