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View Full Version : FAST Coin - Here I come!!



JV_
10-26-2011, 06:07 PM
My practice sessions haven't been all that great lately. Today was different, I was dialed in.

I managed to get my 2 personal best FAST times, back to back. These are also my first sub 5s runs.


4.96s Total
1.57 / .39 / 2.31 / .24 / .22 / .23

4.78s Total
1.56 / .38 / 2.19 / .24 / .22 / .19

224

zml342
10-26-2011, 06:15 PM
Great shooting JV! I hope you get that coin soon.

joshs
10-26-2011, 06:20 PM
Awesome, especially impressive given how fast you have to shoot to make up for the reload. Sub .4 is super fast for the split on the card.

JV_
10-26-2011, 06:24 PM
Thanks. I can't seem to make any headway on the reload, and I've been trying! These sub 5 times are the direct result of improving my first round hit times.

John Ralston
10-26-2011, 07:07 PM
Great shooting JV.

LittleLebowski
10-26-2011, 07:09 PM
I need to practice with you more, JV.

Prdator
10-26-2011, 07:14 PM
Awesome shooting JV!!!!!!!!!!!! Getting those first few under 5 runs is an great accomplishment!!!!!!!!

TGS
10-26-2011, 08:32 PM
Awesome job, JV! Last time I saw you at "Get SOM" it sounded like you were trying hard to get there.

What did you do which allowed the faster first hit? Was switching back to Glock from the P30 a big part of that?

JV_
10-26-2011, 08:45 PM
I'm more confident with the Glock than the P30, and the mental game is a big part of performance. I drop fewer shots with the Glock, I was never happy with my P30 performance. The long trigger pull was difficult for me to master, I cut my losses at around 5K rounds.

Getting the faster first hit wasn't that difficult when I realized I was stalling! We were shooting the plate rack, 8" plates at 20-25 Yards, and I was getting first round hits (from concealment) in the 1.55 - 1.6s range - pretty consistently. My FAST was consistently at 1.7-1.8 for the first shot ... the plate rack is a harder shot!!

When I bumped in to ToddG at the range, he suggested pushing myself on the first 2 shots - with a 1.8s par. That's almost .5s faster than I'm used to! That was a tad too fast for me, but working on a 1.9s par has been very helpful.

JodyH
10-26-2011, 09:29 PM
Breaking 5 sec. is the easy part.
Doing it on demand, twice... that's the hard part.
;)

GJM
10-26-2011, 10:49 PM
You got that part right. In practice, I went out and shot a bunch of clean mid 4 second runs, including one I posted a video link to here, and at Todd's recent course in UT managed to shoot them in the low 6's with a miss or two, and the one 5 something run I did clean was third of the day and didn't count.

Todd, clever guy that he is, has no doubt figured out that the lure of a coin is a great marketing device in keeping us coming back, and that the real difficulty is doing it on demand, in front of an audience, knowing that you have two attempts in a day.

Chris Rhines
10-26-2011, 11:07 PM
Nice shooting, JV. You know we're gonna have words if you earn a coin before I do, right? ;)

-C

Prdator
10-27-2011, 04:49 AM
Nice shooting, JV. You know we're gonna have words if you earn a coin before I do, right? ;)

-C

And Ill have "Words" with all you "Around the DC area" guys if you get a Coin before I do!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:p

Maybe I can get Jake to Whisper to TLG, "Move to OKC"....... :D

JV_
10-27-2011, 04:52 AM
Nice shooting, JV. You know we're gonna have words if you earn a coin before I do, right? ;)I don't think you or joshs should have any concerns, both of you have a HUGE safety margin under 5s, one of my runs was BARELY under 5. I also need to do this cold, and in front of an audience.


the real difficulty is doing it on demand, in front of an audience, knowing that you have two attempts in a day.Exactly. I have to avoid messing up the mental game after the first clean run.

JV_
10-27-2011, 04:54 AM
I need to practice with you more, JV.Well, lets go!

ToddG
10-27-2011, 07:52 AM
Todd, clever guy that he is, has no doubt figured out that the lure of a coin is a great marketing device in keeping us coming back, and that the real difficulty is doing it on demand, in front of an audience, knowing that you have two attempts in a day.

I just wanted to repeat that part about me being so clever.

No, seriously, GJM and JodyH make an important point about the real difficulty which is doing it on demand. I know tons of people who can do it on their own when there is nothing on the line. Have someone else run the shot timer and add the stress that success equals a coin and failure equals no coin, and lo & behold we don't shoot as well all of a sudden. And I say we because as anyone who's been through AFHF knows, I don't shoot it clean under 5 every time in class, either.

rsa-otc
10-27-2011, 08:25 AM
I just wanted to repeat that part about me being so clever.



I think it's all about your Cult following plan you eluded too awhile back. poke poke :D

ToddG
10-27-2011, 08:26 AM
I don't want a cult. I want an empire. :cool:

YVK
10-27-2011, 09:04 AM
I just wanted to repeat that part about me being so clever.

No, seriously, GJM and JodyH make an important point about the real difficulty which is doing it on demand. I know tons of people who can do it on their own when there is nothing on the line. Have someone else run the shot timer and add the stress that success equals a coin and failure equals no coin, and lo & behold we don't shoot as well all of a sudden. And I say we because as anyone who's been through AFHF knows, I don't shoot it clean under 5 every time in class, either.

Let me be another one to repeat that Todd is clever.

I am sure that most of p-f.com readers are aware of U-shaped, or inverse U-shaped, relationship between performance and anxiety. That is, small amount of anxiety improves performance, and excessive anxiety drops it. When I hear that a ton of people can achieve a certain landmark on their own but can't do it in a class, there are really only two possibilities. First is that they can't handle anxiety - which is, while plays more role in some than the others, shouldn't be a big issue. After all, we're shooting paper for bragging rights, just before we're about to go for a group dinner. That much stress, really? The second possibility, which is what I think is happening more often, is that people tend to think of their performance in terms of their peak/personal best times/scores rather than their mean times/scores. The fact that at any given time a person is statistically more likely to perform around their mean rather than their peak is plainly obvious, but somehow gets forgotten easily.

JV, congrats, this is an awesome performance. I find it interesting that you think of 20-25 yard 8" shot as a harder task. I also found it 5000 round cut-your-losses threshold informational; obviously, this is an individual thing.

gtmtnbiker98
10-27-2011, 09:19 AM
You got that part right. In practice, I went out and shot a bunch of clean mid 4 second runs, including one I posted a video link to here, and at Todd's recent course in UT managed to shoot them in the low 6's with a miss or two, and the one 5 something run I did clean was third of the day and didn't count.

Todd, clever guy that he is, has no doubt figured out that the lure of a coin is a great marketing device in keeping us coming back, and that the real difficulty is doing it on demand, in front of an audience, knowing that you have two attempts in a day.Truer words never spoken. Nothing like the stage fright! It's hard enough, then you add the pressure of Todd's little comments atop the buzzer and all of a sudden I'm ready to hitch a ride on the "short bus."

JV_
10-27-2011, 09:28 AM
JV, congratsThanks!

I don't think of myself in terms of my best performance, it's much more about what's repeatable for me. I want to be a consistent performer, I don't feel like I'm there. These were clearly my 2 best performances. I'm normally sub 5.5s. This was a HUGE jump.


When I hear that a ton of people can achieve a certain landmark on their own but can't do it in a class, there are really only two possibilities.Add one more, they could be a liar.


I find it interesting that you think of 20-25 yard 8" shot as a harder task.I do.
15.0 sq inches @ 21' - That's .71 sq inches of target / foot
50.3 sq inches @ 75' - That's .67 sq inches of target / foot

They're equally challenging if the plate is at 70'.

YVK
10-27-2011, 10:50 AM
Add one more, they could be a liar.


U.S. Embassy in Moscow called. They want you for a Chief Ambassador, they liked your diplomacy :):)





I do.
15.0 sq inches @ 21' - That's .71 sq inches of target / foot
50.3 sq inches @ 75' - That's .67 sq inches of target / foot

They're equally challenging if the plate is at 70'.

Yep, I did the same math. To me round targets are easier since all edges are equidistant for the center (POA). When I miss 3x5, I miss at the vertical axis where the dimensions are smaller; usually low due to anticipation.

JV_
10-27-2011, 10:56 AM
they liked your diplomacyI'm not known for beating around the bush :o


Yep, I did the same math. To me round targets are easier since all edges are equidistant for the center (POA). When I miss 3x5, I miss at the vertical axis where the dimensions are smaller; usually low due to anticipation.Yea, it's not that cut and dry. I also tend to miss on the vertical, it may as well be a 3x3 card. But shooting at distance is further complicated by the dimensions of your sights, specifically front post width and notch alignment. I can get pretty sloppy with sight alignment and still hit an index card. I have to pay a lot more attention at 25Y.

jetfire
10-27-2011, 11:55 AM
Re: performance degradation between practice and "actual" shooting for coins/trophies/etc. I remember reading somewhere that top tier athletes expect about a 10-20% loss of performance ability from practice to the actual game. It's why you see NFL kickers nailing 60+ yard field goals during warm-up and practice like it's no thing, but then shanking a 47 yarder when the game's on the line. The hardest thing I do when I shoot is the mental aspect of knowing how well I can mechanically perform and managing my expectations of that performance.

For the coin example, when I took Get SOM and Speed Kills earlier this year, prior to the class I had been shooting consistent high 4s low 5s on the fast drill from an open top retention holster (Galco). At the class I shot a 5.96 raw time, which equaled a 6.46 after the .50 penalty. That works out to 17% performance degradation from my AVERAGE practice score to the "real thing." It also holds true on other standards; the best IDPA classifier I shot for realzies was an 86 and change, in practice I've hit the low 70s.

Which is to say that JV, that was some totally awesome shooting! Consistent sub-5 runs are pretty cool, I have to say.

Mr_White
10-27-2011, 12:24 PM
The second possibility, which is what I think is happening more often, is that people tend to think of their performance in terms of their peak/personal best times/scores rather than their mean times/scores. The fact that at any given time a person is statistically more likely to perform around their mean rather than their peak is plainly obvious, but somehow gets forgotten easily.

I definitely agree with everything that's been said in this thread about performance degradation, and the above quote especially. I certainly have a hard time keeping my mind off my best possible performance, and onto what I can honestly expect to do reliably, all the time. That's a great point YVK.

10 to 20% performance degradation is what I've experienced when shooting with an audience or when there is otherwise something riding on the outcome. I've seen this most notably when shooting Bill Drills, the FAST, and the IDPA Classifier (those are just the examples that I remember the numbers for.)

I think in his book, Brian Enos says he's experienced a 15% performance degradation between the heights of personal practice and the stress of competition.

I took a calculator to the FAST example: I would have to shoot the FAST reliably in about 4.15 seconds in practice if I expect to still be under 5 seconds after degrading 20% when under "stress." And that's only addressing time degradation, not necessarily accuracy too.

Letting go of expectations is a real challenge for me.

It further drives home the idea to relentlessly reach for the highest possible levels in training for self-defense, so that when stress takes its toll, we are still far better than we needed to be (hopefully.)

JAD
10-27-2011, 01:16 PM
I'm not known for beating around the bush
Um, phrasing.

JV_
11-04-2011, 02:19 PM
Here it is, coin #7:

241

fuse
11-04-2011, 02:26 PM
Damn son.

LittleLebowski
11-04-2011, 02:28 PM
Awesome! Talk about well earned. JV works bloody hard at shooting and helped get me on the FAST Wall.

Prdator
11-04-2011, 02:35 PM
Congrats JV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So did you get the runs on vido or anything???

YVK
11-04-2011, 02:36 PM
Man, this is awesome, I saw Todd's message on p-t.com, but no details yet. This is a big achievement and a testament to a skill set; quite motivational for the rest of us and I am jealous in a good sense. Congratulations!

JDM
11-04-2011, 02:45 PM
Outstanding.

NickA
11-04-2011, 02:46 PM
Congratulations JV!

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

JV_
11-04-2011, 02:58 PM
Sorry, no video. The range doesn't allow it.

My first and last runs were clean. The one in the middle was horrible, -2 H and -1 B, I was shaking too much after the first clean run. I took a 1 min break to load mags before starting the 3rd run.

2 Good Runs:

4.98 1.50/.43/2.44/.20/.22/.19 Clean
4.82 1.56/.48/2.13/.22/.21/.22 Clean

I fumbled the reload on the 1st, it felt really bad, but was still sub 5s.

Ga Shooter
11-04-2011, 03:09 PM
Congrats!! Great job.

Matt O
11-04-2011, 03:14 PM
Congrats JV!

BigT
11-04-2011, 03:20 PM
Outstanding congrats dude.

ToddG
11-04-2011, 04:34 PM
Given the circumstances -- no warning, no warm up, short-barreled ARs and hunting rifles going off at random all around us -- I'd say it's pretty damn impressive. And in proper pistol-forum.com fashion, JV loaded the gun up and wore it to lunch in the exact same holster, exact same cover garment that he used to shoot the test.

ubervic
11-04-2011, 06:21 PM
Congrats, JV!

Too bad I couldn't join you guys and see this achievement in person. Hope to meet up with you in the near future and get some tips & pointers.

JV_
11-04-2011, 06:30 PM
Thanks Everyone!

uber: I'm always up for more range time.

JHC
11-04-2011, 06:35 PM
On DEMAND!!!

Well done!

fuse
11-06-2011, 12:34 AM
so JV makes a thread entitled "FAST Coin - Here I come" and 9 days later gets it done.

clearly some shadow government time travel going on, or something. its like Babe Ruth calling a home-run times 100.

Slavex
11-06-2011, 04:21 AM
Somehow missed this. Congrats dude. Well done

JV_
11-06-2011, 05:57 AM
clearly some shadow government time travel going on, or something.Nah, it's just the Gadget. It magically takes .5s off your FAST times. :p

Seriously though, I had a breakthrough one day at the range. It was the comparison of my first shot times at 8" plates from far away, to the index card at 7Y. I mention it to Todd, he gave me a drill to work on, and *poof* .... here come the sub 5s runs.

IMO: Todd is a phenomenal instructor, and much of the credit goes to him. His advise and troubleshooting tips, over the past ~2 years, have been spot on and have transformed my shooting skills. I started seriously shooting handguns in early 2010, after a 4 year handgun hiatus, when GermanSynergy and I showed up at a PT class (SOM). I ran the FAST drill for the first time and it was horrendous - not even close to pin-worthy. Fast forward many thousands of rounds, a bunch of PTC classes, and 19 months ... here we are today.

I also can't leave out GS, joshs, and TCinVA.

GS has been my shooting buddy for years, we try to shoot meaningful drills and offer critique. You need to have a shooting buddy of equal or better skill to progress quickly.
joshs is always willing to share tips with me and point out my issues, it has helped a lot.
My press-outs are totally different after watching TCinVA. I struggled with the press-out until I watched him do it (from the rear). I noticed his outward elbow movement and a light bulb went off.






Somehow missed this. Congrats dude. Well doneThanks.

fuse
11-06-2011, 07:39 AM
Seriously though, I had a breakthrough one day at the range. It was the comparison of my first shot times at 8" plates from far away, to the index card at 7Y. I mention it to Todd, he gave me a drill to work on, and *poof* .... here come the sub 5s runs.



Can you elaborate a bit? The first shot is my big bottleneck (I am sure I'm not alone)

Afterall, you are shooting the index card twice before I can shoot it once. It's definitely what I find so impressive about these expert runs.

JConn
11-06-2011, 07:43 AM
Can you elaborate a bit? The first shot is my big bottleneck (I am sure I'm not alone)

Afterall, you are shooting the index card twice before I can shoot it once. It's definitely what I find so impressive about these expert runs.

Not sure, but I think it starts with "press" and ends with "out."

ToddG
11-06-2011, 11:19 AM
While I appreciate the shout out, JV, there's only one person who was pulling the trigger and pointing the gun during that run and it was you. You put in the practice, you made it a goal, you pushed yourself to improve, and you stood up and turned in a winning performance on demand.

But I am willing to agree that the Gadget takes half a second off your FAST time. :cool:

JV_
11-06-2011, 11:27 AM
Can you elaborate a bit?Sure.

The goal is to get your 2 x 3"x5" shots in 2s. If you break this down, you need a first shot in about 1.5s-1.6s with a .4s/.5s split. The drill that Todd suggested was working on getting in both shots in 1.8s, to force yourself to go faster. He specifically suggested using the face/edge target system we have at the NRA. 1.8s was a bit too fast for me, but at 1.9s I'm able to get in my shots about 75% of the time. For a while, it'll be one of my first drills to shoot when at the range.

TCinVA
11-07-2011, 12:49 PM
A bit belated since I've been busy, but congratulations JV. It's quite an accomplishment.

Mr_White
11-07-2011, 05:43 PM
I know I don't know you at all JV, but great job!

TCinVA
11-13-2011, 05:33 PM
JV: After you left yesterday we did some FAST runs.

5.34 seconds, clean...even with my ridiculously slow reload...probably largely a result of work on those couple of drills you mentioned.

Next practice session, your dinner is on me.

JV_
11-13-2011, 05:42 PM
5.34 seconds, clean...even with my ridiculously slow reloadThat's fantastic!!

Your drills on that index card @ 7Y, with .25 splits (clean), was just awesome. The credit for that drill goes 100% to Todd, I just keep running my mouth about its effectiveness. It's truly amazing how many of his 2 second tips help me dramatically improve things.

It reinforces the notion that it's not just about how much you train, it's how effectively you train.

TCinVA
11-13-2011, 05:54 PM
I'm definitely going to be doing those drills again. Frankly I thought I was just getting lucky on them earlier, but I don't think it's coincidence that shortly after running them I turned in two sub 6 second clean FAST runs. (5.5 something and then the 5.34)

YVK
11-13-2011, 06:18 PM
.probably largely a result of work on those couple of drills you mentioned.




That's fantastic!!

Your drills on that index card @ 7Y, with .25 splits (clean), was just awesome. The credit for that drill goes 100% to Todd, I just keep running my mouth about its effectiveness. .

Curious minds want to know...

JV_
11-13-2011, 06:39 PM
Curious minds want to know...

Post #9 in this thread.

TCinVA
11-14-2011, 02:52 PM
Just to further emphasize the value of the aforementioned practice, my two best FAST runs ever:

5.49 (http://youtu.be/lHhsdmegszg)
5.34 (http://youtu.be/qg-8ggCH2OE)

fuse
11-15-2011, 12:20 AM
nice.

JV_
11-15-2011, 06:37 AM
5.49 (http://youtu.be/lHhsdmegszg)
5.34 (http://youtu.be/qg-8ggCH2OE)

Your performance this weekend was quite noteworthy, you seemed dialed in for much of the day.

Frank D.
11-15-2011, 09:05 AM
Congrats!

I can't wait to get back to NOVA next year, looking forward to meeting and shooting with some of you fellas.