Single stack DA/SA for carry?

[Tom Fineis]

Looking for a single stack 9 compact, DA/SA. I am familiar with and do not like the P239.

Reliable, slim, good trigger and light weight are my goals, in that order. Can I do better than an old Smith 3913/908?

I'd love to find one near the size of a Kahr P9 but I don't know if that exists.

[ssb]

I don't know of anything current-production that meets your goals while still being a single-stack and DA/SA.

I went looking back when I was carrying a P226. The closest smaller guns I could come up with were the S&W 39- variants and the SIG P225/P6. Given the political climate, I didn't want to go down the road of an out-of-production gun.

[AlwaysLearning]

Walther P5?

[OlongJohnson]

There's a Beretta 92 Compact Type M on GB right now that hasn't run up to a truly stupid price yet. Rare as hen's teeth.

[PD Sgt.]

There's a Beretta 92 Compact Type M on GB right now that hasn't run up to a truly stupid price yet. Rare as hen's teeth.

I did not see the auction but the Type M was my first thought as well.

Not single stack but the CZ RAMI also came to mind.

[ReverendMeat]

I don't know of anything current-production that meets your goals while still being a single-stack and DA/SA.

I went looking back when I was carrying a P226. The closest smaller guns I could come up with were the S&W 39- variants and the SIG P225/P6. Given the political climate, I didn't want to go down the road of an out-of-production gun.

Well, there is the new P225-A1.

[Wobblie]

The new SIG P225A1?

[Wobblie]

Well, there is the new P225-A1.
Beat me by a second!

[Duelist]

Looking for a single stack 9 compact, DA/SA. I am familiar with and do not like the P239.

Reliable, slim, good trigger and light weight are my goals, in that order. Can I do better than an old Smith 3913/908?

I'd love to find one near the size of a Kahr P9 but I don't know if that exists.

I carry one of a pair of 3913s daily. They meet every criteria that you ask about, and can be had for quite a bit less than a P225A1 - I got my pair, a handful of extra mags, and a set of Trijicons on one of them, all for less than one P225A1. But they are not current production, and sometimes it is a challenge to get spare parts. And if the frame gives up the ghost, S&W won't replace it - I hear they offer a voucher for an M&P.

If you want current production, your top brand choices are the P239 and the P225A1. I don't think they are necessarily better than a 3913, but there are advantages to not having to do your own warranty work, and not having to deadline a gun til you can get a spare or scrounge up parts somewhere.

[JonInWA]

Concur with Duelist. From a value standpoint, I'd suggest the P239, and then the P225A1-the ergos of the P225A1 are slighly better than those on the P239, but not significantly so, nor,in my opinion, necessarily worth the additional tariff that the P225A1 is currently priced at. Based on my perception of quality, I would then go to the Walther P5-spendy, but available, both used and new (the new ones being new old stock, from Earl's). While the 3913/3914 have an excellent reputation, I think the P5s an excellent choice-but avoid the P5C, which is even more expensive than the P5, and not as durable in my experience (I've owned 3 P5s and 1 P5C).

The Beretta 92 FS L Type M is good, but a bit bulky-and magazines are exceptionally difficult to find. I was also somewhat unimpressed with the DA/SA trigger on the one that I owned, but that's on a sample size of 1, so YMMV. An additional strike against the Beretta is that there are a set of fairly sharp and protrusive edges/corners at the beavertail, making it somewhat uncomfortable to carry, particularly with an IWB holster-judicious (and probably custom) selection is strongly advised.

Best, Jon

[Wobblie]

Walther P5?
I found one today at the local gun shop. It's a much nicer pistol than the old P6 and reminded me of my P9S. I asked Matt, the owner, to set it aside for me :-)

[Tom Fineis]

I carry one of a pair of 3913s daily. They meet every criteria that you ask about, and can be had for quite a bit less than a P225A1 - I got my pair, a handful of extra mags, and a set of Trijicons on one of them, all for less than one P225A1. But they are not current production, and sometimes it is a challenge to get spare parts. And if the frame gives up the ghost, S&W won't replace it - I hear they offer a voucher for an M&P.

If you want current production, your top brand choices are the P239 and the P225A1. I don't think they are necessarily better than a 3913, but there are advantages to not having to do your own warranty work, and not having to deadline a gun til you can get a spare or scrounge up parts somewhere.

Thanks for your input. Can you give me a quick rundown of common problems with the 3913's? I am not familiar with them at all.

[1986s4]

Classic SIG P225 for me. I found one ANIB, Trij HD's with 5 new magazines for just over 5 bills. Since then I have bought used SIG P-6 mags for training. Many of the parts are interchangeable with other classic SIGs and I believe SIG still supports the design. Perfect for me and appendix carry.

[Duelist]

Thanks for your input. Can you give me a quick rundown of common problems with the 3913's? I am not familiar with them at all.

I am no expert on them - I just like 'em a lot. Started carrying one at the end of 2014 because I'd always found them gorgeous and ergonomic, but they were too expensive. Came across a late production LNIB LadySmith at a price I could afford and snatched her up. Shooting it was (and is) comparable to driving a luxury car: everything works exactly as it is supposed to, there are no surprises, and when you hit the go pedal (car or gun), dramatic, good things happen.

My older one I picked up last year. I think it is actually a first or second year gun. The original xenon grip was cracked around the grip pin, and the pin was pretty buggered. Replaced the cracked grip with a Hogue rubber grip, and came across a sale on new factory parts that had grip pins available, so I grabbed one of those, three recoil springs, and a couple of other little things. The newer one probably didn't actually need a new recoil spring, since it had barely been shot before I got it, but the older one ... The old spring was about an inch shorter than the new one. With the old spring, it cycled weak lead target reloads just fine, but with the new one, it wants more authority behind the pill.

I am told that the side plates are susceptible to damage when ham-handed folks are doing grip-off level maintenance. A buggered side plate deadlines the gun because of the trigger parts it holds in place, IIRC. trigger return springs break and wear, corrosion can happen on the aluminum frame under grips when sweat and grime aren't cleaned off, etc.

There's some folks here much more knowledgable about 3rd gen S&W issues than I am, and a very helpful guy on S&W Forum who was an armorer for a large agency that used to run them (his forum handle is fastbolt).

[SLG]

Why does it have to be single stack? Law or hand size? Something else?

[RevolverRob]

Thanks for your input. Can you give me a quick rundown of common problems with the 3913's? I am not familiar with them at all.

Finding spare parts and magazines. Otherwise, not usually a damn thing. A 3rd Gen Smith is just about as reliable as the sun rising. I'd really say - Kahr. But if it has to be DA/SA.

However, my criteria for a carry gun are as follows 1) Reliable 2) In current production - Simply because parts availability is a thing. As is spares and backups.

[Tom Fineis]

Why does it have to be single stack? Law or hand size? Something else?

Just for slim width. I understand the 3913 and 225 arent much slimmer than a G19.

I am carrying a CZ P01 now and want something "one size smaller" for deeper concealment. My Kahr P9 fills that role but I would rather have something more similar to my P01.

[1slow]

Why does it have to be single stack? Law or hand size? Something else?

Exactly !
Hand size or law I understand.
HK P2000, HK P2000 SK, HK P30, BHP with thin grips etc seem to fit small hands OK.
Within the law I want as much ammo in the pistol as is consistent with good shooting with my hand size.

[SLG]

Just for slim width. I understand the 3913 and 225 arent much slimmer than a G19.

I am carrying a CZ P01 now and want something "one size smaller" for deeper concealment. My Kahr P9 fills that role but I would rather have something more similar to my P01.

The older P225's (not sure about the remake) had the same grip panel width as the P228's, fwiw, so that might not be worth looking at. The grips feel different, but the actual width at the butt is the same. I'm not keen on the 239's either. A current P229 with the G2 grips might be pretty thin compared to other options, IDK. I know the 3913's are pretty thin, but I personally couldn't recommend that route today.

Curious to hear what you come up with and if it does what you want it to do.

[JPedersen]

I have had a 3913 and it would shoot anything I fed it and was accurate as well. I sold it to purchase a 3953 that I currently have and carry. It has been reliable thus far and I have been able to track down replacement parts to stash. I wanted the slimness of the 3953 and the simplicity that DAO offered. I also liked how the DAO mimics my 642 BUG. The other option I have been looking out for has been a CS9. Shorter version of the 3913. You may also want to look for a 3913 TSW. The shorter grip helps in AIWB. Just some thoughts. I will be watching this thread. I have been considering a Rami since I have not been able to track down a decent deal on a CS9. How do you like running the CZ?


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[Tom Fineis]

Been carrying for ten years, fully understand the deaire for mo bullets. I have transitioned to DA guns from strikers, and have not yet found a suitable replacement for my P9. The 3913 seems closest, but parts appear to be an issue. I will continue my search and update if I find something.

Whatever it is would need to be considerably smaller than the P01, which is admittedly a pretty efficient 15 round DA blaster.

[GardoneVT]

Thanks for your input. Can you give me a quick rundown of common problems with the 3913's? I am not familiar with them at all.

To reinforce what's already been said about Smith semi autos.

I called S&W customer service and asked the rep about the logistical situation with their guns. Gist of it is, slides plus a limited supply of small parts are on hand. Exact quantity of those parts and to what extent to which weapon type (2nd Gen,3rd Gen compact, full size, etc) is unknown to the mothership- so it's a lottery if HQ has small parts for your variant of Semi-Auto. The more common the variant, the higher your odds of getting back a fixed pistol instead of an M&P voucher.

Frames and barrels are history, so bust either part and its totaled.

Insofar as carry ability goes, back in my "derpy carry rotation days" I toted a nickel 439 around. It sure hid well enough.Yet. nowadays bad guys(and gals) roll in groups, and if a 6 shot revolver might not get the job done against a drug enabled scumbag(s) an 8+1 9mm ain't much better. Best to keep all 15+ in one ready to go carry package (Glock 19,M&P,etc) then in two magazines for a single stack system.

[Tom Fineis]

How do you like running the CZ?


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Really like it. Metal frame CZ's are incredibly accurate, mags are cheap, and the P01/PCR are aluminum frame, making them only a few oz heavier than their polymer counterparts. The P01 with a few trigger parts and springs is a fantastic gun.i dont miss my G19 one bit.

The P01 is a duty gun in a number of overseas agencies and has proven very reliable for me.

[TCinVA]

The 3913 is the best of the breed, IMO...and also out of manufacture. There aren't many single-stack DA/SA guns out there in a real caliber. Most of them aren't really any better in terms of width than some of the polymer double-stack options.

If money was no object, I'd buy a brace of lightly used 3913 pistols and whatever spare parts I could find. Or P7M8 pistols.

I've owned and carried the P239 and while I never loved the pistol it's adequate...and if you are intent on a hammer-fired gun it's probably the best option currently available.

[john c]

What are the failure points on a 3913? I recall they're stout pistols, at least the steel frame 3rd gen guns. Smith made a lot of 3rd gen guns, and besides the barrel, frame, and slide, how many parts are unique to the 3913?

I'd buy a 3913, shoot the snot out of it. If it breaks and you can't repair it, the worst that happens is that you get a new M&P. For what you could sell the M&P for, it seems like the worst you'd be out is $200. That's a pretty good deal.

Get two, so you have a spare if one gives up the ghost on you.


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[Greg]

I have a 3913 and as much as I like it, the width is virtually identical to a Glock 19.

The DA trigger on mine is stupendous. The SA is just OK. Very reliable and scary accurate with the loads it likes.

[StraitR]

Just for slim width. I understand the 3913 and 225 arent much slimmer than a G19.

I am carrying a CZ P01 now and want something "one size smaller" for deeper concealment. My Kahr P9 fills that role but I would rather have something more similar to my P01.

...............................P01............P239 ...........P225A1........92 M Type
Barrel Length............3.8 in...........3.6 in...........3.6 in...........7.8 in
Overall Weight...........28 oz...........29.5 oz.........30.5 oz........30.9 oz
Overall Length...........7.2 in...........6.6 in...........6.9 oz..........7.8 in
Overall Height...........5.03 in..........5.1 in...........5.2 in...........5.3 in
Overall Width............1.38 in..........1.2 in...........1.26 in.........1.4 in


Couldn't find specs on the 3913, but if memory serves me, it falls in line with the P239. I think to really go down a size, you would need to consider a SA or SFA.

[LGChris]

I'm in the same boat. Recently switched to Beretta DAs after several years running primarily M&Ps and I'm disappointed in the lack of slim single stack options for those extra humid insta-crotch-sweat days here in the South.

I picked up a S&W 3953 to fill that role for now until I figure out something else or a more ideal option hits the market. It is 29 oz loaded, which is only marginally lighter than the PX4 Compact I've been carrying most days. But I've learned to take the numbers with a grain of salt. Some guns just carry easier than others despite what the dimensions look like on paper. The way the 3953 is balanced and the texture of the slide and grip just make it a more comfortable gun for me to carry all day in humid T-shirt weather.

Don't get me wrong... if there was something like a DA exposed hammer Shield, I would definitely give it a hard look. But the 3913/3953 seem to be among the best of the currently available options for a slim DA gun, and I've found my 3953 does offer some advantages in comfort and concealment over a compact/subcompact double stack, even if the numbers don't look that convincing.

I'm not thrilled that its out of production, but I am not looking at this as a life-long decision. I expect the 3953 to hold up well enough until another solution presents itself. And if I keep liking it as much as I have been, I'll probably hunt down another one in a few months while the prices are still hovering just under $500.

[OlongJohnson]

I haven't been able to get my hands on one yet, but I'm trying. The thing that is attractive to me is the slim slide. From what I can find, it's only about 0.9" wide in DAO form. The P239 is a single stack under a shortened version of a big, go-to-war service pistol's slide. Top heavy and just awkward. Even the Beretta 92 Compact Type M has a shortened version of the 92 slide.

I was looking at a Hi Power and thinking, as I have many times before, "Why isn't there a compact pistol with a slide this narrow, and a good DA trigger?" I think I just needed to google the right things. There are some people who are really knowledgeable about these little Smiths over on Smith-wessonforums, and several active threads.

[Duelist]

76233913:

Barrel length: 3.442"
OAL: 6.95"
Overall height (no magazine): 4.872"
(Flat baseplate magazine): 5.146"
(Curved baseplate mag): 5.422
Width (at ambi safety levers): 1.335" - these are the original, slightly lower profile levers.
(Single-side safety lever): 1.165" - newer, not quite as low-profile
(At slide-stop lever, older): 1.02"
(At slide-stop lever, newer): 1.112"
(Slide): .925
(Hogue rubber grip): 1.16"
(Factory plastic grip): 1.097"

7624

In the second image, you can see the differences between the different levers. The engravings on the older one are roll stamped, on the newer are laser. And you can clearly see the different profile and machining between the standard 3913 and the LadySmith.

[Duelist]

I'm in the same boat. Recently switched to Beretta DAs after several years running primarily M&Ps and I'm disappointed in the lack of slim single stack options for those extra humid insta-crotch-sweat days here in the South.

I picked up a S&W 3953 to fill that role for now until I figure out something else or a more ideal option hits the market. It is 29 oz loaded, which is only marginally lighter than the PX4 Compact I've been carrying most days. But I've learned to take the numbers with a grain of salt. Some guns just carry easier than others despite what the dimensions look like on paper. The way the 3953 is balanced and the texture of the slide and grip just make it a more comfortable gun for me to carry all day in humid T-shirt weather.

Don't get me wrong... if there was something like a DA exposed hammer Shield, I would definitely give it a hard look. But the 3913/3953 seem to be among the best of the currently available options for a slim DA gun, and I've found my 3953 does offer some advantages in comfort and concealment over a compact/subcompact double stack, even if the numbers don't look that convincing.

I'm not thrilled that its out of production, but I am not looking at this as a life-long decision. I expect the 3953 to hold up well enough until another solution presents itself. And if I keep liking it as much as I have been, I'll probably hunt down another one in a few months while the prices are still hovering just under $500.

Exactly. I really like mine, and I figure I'll run them until I can't reasonably maintain them anymore. Really, I expect them to carry on for quite some time. I got each of them for well under $500. If I come across another in good shape for the same money, it will be hard not to sock it away.

[Duelist]

If you want something that is similar, but actually smaller, see if you can scrounge up a CS9. They came in TDA and DAO - smaller in length and height vs the 3913/3953, though a bit more rare. There are also CS40 and CS45. I've only ever seen one CS40 in the wild, a DAO. It was not much smaller than my 3913, but the CS9 is built on a smaller frame, and should be a nice little piece, if you can find one. And stomach the price you'll probably have to pay.

[Digiroc]

Well I just acquired a CS9, I wouldn't say "scrounged" since I paid nearly $700 for it. I guess this purchase makes me a 3rd Gen S&W collector, since I also recently added a 1006 to the 5906 I've had for 25 years.

7628

If it shoots well and holds up after a few boxes of ammo through it it will replace my Kimber Custom Shop Ultra CDP II as backup to my J frame AirLite PD. I will also carry it solo in place of the J frame from time to time.

I will be scrounging for spare parts though, recoil springs, magazines, and other bits that I can come across. Maybe I'll even try to find the stainless version along the way, then I'll have a brace of these fine carry guns like this: (these are .40s and just a nice photo)

7627

Digiroc

[farscott]

The best, easiest, and least expensive way to get spare 391x parts is to buy spare 391x pistols. By carefully shopping, I ended up with three 3913 pistols and one really ugly 3914 all from the same year or two of production while spending less than $1300 total as my daughter is a 3rd Generation user. She has a 3913 and a really sweet Novak 3906. The 3906 had an entire spare upper when purchased, but I had to acquire the rest of the spare parts supply.

The bad news for the alloy-framed guns is that you must detail strip the lower to ensure there are no cracks. Slides are not an issue as any of the 39xx/69xx DA/SA slides will work.

[LSP552]

The P239 in 9mm is pretty hard to beat in a single stack. It's a bit heavy, but shoots like a full size pistol and it hides smaller than it looks. It's well supported with sights, holsters and parts because it's a current production model. I carry one quite a bit. The magazines are slim and easy to hide.

[FrankinCA]

The P239 in 9mm is pretty hard to beat in a single stack. It's a bit heavy, but shoots like a full size pistol and it hides smaller than it looks. It's well supported with sights, holsters and parts because it's a current production model. I carry one quite a bit. The magazines are slim and easy to hide.

/\ This. I have two. I actually have a 3913, but my P239 is on my carry permit. It shoots like a full size gun.

[Duelist]

Well I just acquired a CS9, I wouldn't say "scrounged" since I paid nearly $700 for it. I guess this purchase makes me a 3rd Gen S&W collector, since I also recently added a 1006 to the 5906 I've had for 25 years...

[snip]
I will be scrounging for spare parts though, recoil springs, magazines, and other bits that I can come across. [snip]

Digiroc

Scrounging doesn't necessarily mean that you didn't pay much for something - it can mean that you had to struggle to find it available for puchase.

Small internal parts for the CS9 and 39xx should be interchangeable, and if you want a longer magazine for a spare carry mag, the 8rd 39xx mags should fit it and be easier to find because they made more of them. The last two I bought were still NIB, and one still is.

[LGChris]

...if you want a longer magazine for a spare carry mag, the 8rd 39xx mags should fit it and be easier to find because they made more of them. The last two I bought were still NIB, and one still is.

OEM NIB 8-round 39-- mags are still available and affordable. I might be mistaken but I believe Mec-Gar currently makes them. If the S&W mags were harder to source, I would probably have skipped right over to the P239.

[Wobblie]

I'm going to try this out at the range tomorrow. It certainly appears to be an elegant solution. The Walther, not the wrench.

[1986s4]

I had a Walther P-5 for a time, the weird left side ejection and heal clip mag release didn't bother me so much as the aluminum feed ramp, mine was beginning to wear. It did carry light.

[rauchman]

I'm going to try this out at the range tomorrow. It certainly appears to be an elegant solution. The Walther, not the wrench.

I have one of these myself. As mentioned, it is an elegant pistol with a really nice DA/SA trigger. I have/had the P5, Sig P6 and HK P7. I love the P7, but the P5 is a close runner up.

[Wobblie]

I have one of these myself. As mentioned, it is an elegant pistol with a really nice DA/SA trigger. I have/had the P5, Sig P6 and HK P7. I love the P7, but the P5 is a close runner up.

I,too, have owned a P6, P225 and P7. I could never get used to the squeeze cocker and I couldn't hit anything with either SIG. The P5 did well today and I enjoyed shooting it.

[BigDaddy]

What about the Glock 43? I'm told it's a very good gun and can be had as a 7+1 pistol.

[LostDuke]

What about the Glock 43? I'm told it's a very good gun and can be had as a 7+1 pistol.


I had no idea they were a DA/SA pistol. :o

[BigDaddy]

Uh oh, my bad. Sorry. I like my 239 better though.

[farscott]

It is not a single-stack, but with the thin side panels installed, the P30 and P30SK are almost as thin as a 1911 with standard thickness grips across the grip frame. And single-stack is a reference to grip thickness. The V3 guns are DA/SA, are reliable, and have a decent (not great) trigger. The P30 guns are a bit wider at the control levers, but that should not be an issue for IWB carry.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h229/farscott/IMG_0457_zpsqbg0dmsg.jpg (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/farscott/media/IMG_0457_zpsqbg0dmsg.jpg.html)

A P30SK gives you ten rounds in the magazine, which is 25% more than the competitive single-stack guns. It is a different way to get out of the box that says thin must be single-stack.

[Whirlwind06]

I know you have set 9mm as your minimum requirement. But IMO the Beretta 84FS is worth a look, 13 rounds of .380 and almost 4 inch barrel. But it's still a very compact easy carrying gun. Plus it's a nice looking gun as well :)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/NE_Ohio_shooter/2015-03-23%2013.54.35_zpsrmfivwlo.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/NE_Ohio_shooter/media/2015-03-23%2013.54.35_zpsrmfivwlo.jpg.html)

[OlongJohnson]

Gotta jump in. I have an 84F. It's supposedly made after the improvement to the safety mechanism. Still not right. You can move the lever upward until it clicks into a very clear detent, pull the trigger, and have it go bang. If you stop to look at the slide, it's not completely concealing the red dot, so it's obviously not actually on safe. My understanding from extensive reading on the subject is that my example is normal, not damaged or different than the rest.

Having a safety that works the way safeties are expected to work is good. Having no safety on a DAO or DA/SA decocker-only is also good. Having a safety that clicks from off safe into a clear detent that's still not on safe is, IMO, unacceptable for a firearm that could ever possibly be used for anything more than putting holes in paper.

[Trukinjp13]

I would like a single stack p07.

[GardoneVT]

I know you have set 9mm as your minimum requirement. But IMO the Beretta 84FS is worth a look, 13 rounds of .380 and almost 4 inch barrel. But it's still a very compact easy carrying gun. Plus it's a nice looking gun as well :)
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b313/NE_Ohio_shooter/2015-03-23%2013.54.35_zpsrmfivwlo.jpg (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/NE_Ohio_shooter/media/2015-03-23%2013.54.35_zpsrmfivwlo.jpg.html)

As a Beretta fanboy, I'd have to disagree about the "compact" part.
Perhaps in the 80s it was the ultimate compact option, but nowadays its frickin huge.Its not much smaller then a Sig P228 or a Glock 19.