Shooting my M&P Shield in USPSA

[Lomshek]

I put this in Mindset because it is much more about my desire to test my carry equipment in conditions that would be difficult to replicate in training than to impress everyone with my incredible match performances. :rolleyes:

A while ago I decided to use my M&P Shield 9mm in the local USPSA matches I direct. Figured running the carry gun through the wringer would reveal any weaknesses in it or my use of it that my solo training might not. Shooting a few 25 - 35 round stages with lots of reloads, awkward shots and transitions (much more than any one training situation I'd set up for myself) would find flaws.

In each of the matches I start off by burning up the 15 rounds of carry ammo (HST 147 +p) I have on me at all times (two 7 round magazines and 1 in the chamber).

I've outfitted the Shield with an Apex AEK trigger and sear which brought the trigger pull down to 4lb 13oz. While that's OK I was unsure about the effect these mods had on reliability. More than the improved trigger pull I don't care for the factory M&P trigger shape or hinge.

Because of my job (I own a bicycle shop) I do lots of bending over in front of customers to work on their bikes or fit them to bikes and a gun carried IWB would print like crazy. My belly (not getting nearly enough miles) interferes with AIWB although constantly bending over doesn't make that very appealing anyway. All of that has led me to pocket carry and the Shield with the 7 round magazine fits in my front jeans pocket in a kydex holster I made that masks the shape and is relatively easy to draw from. It completely disappears in Dockers or cargo short front pockets.

Pocket carry is never going to win a quick draw contest but I ain't Mr. White anyway and my draw is never going to beat a drawn gun so this is acceptable to me for now.

I did my first Shield match in March and had a couple problems. In one stage I had a dead trigger (failure to cock the striker) and in another stage the gun doubled (two rounds for one trigger pull). Accuracy was great (the Shield shoots 4"-5" 10 round groups at 25 yards while my M&P 9 FS will maybe do 8" with the same HST 147 ammo).

So on with the videos. I'm open to critiques. Man is my footwork slow and clumsy. I generally run the Shield to slide lock because with 7 round magazines I can't afford to be abandoning live ammo.

Video #1 - Begin with an empty holstered gun. On signal move to other box while drawing and loading then shoot each target 3 times, return to starting box and engage each target with 3 more rounds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YdotvQrke8&feature=youtu.be

I have a dead trigger at 0:33. At this point I had about 500 rounds through the gun since I installed the Apex trigger components with no hint of trouble.


Video # 2 - The very next stage. Straightforward shoot them as you see them stage except for the 40 mile per hour winds that had laid waste to our walls and targets requiring some improvised no shoots to represent walls thus the stage layout looks a little goofy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zZ5LeLdmDE&feature=youtu.be

My Shield doubles at 0:15. Again no problem in 500'ish rounds since installing the Apex parts until these two stages.

I contacted Apex after the match and after some discussion they sent me a heavier sear spring and a modified sear for more sear/striker engagement. After trying the new sear I modified mine for similar increased engagement. Their's worked fine but with the trigger fully rearward their sear barely cleared the striker (.006" clearance vs. .015 clearance with mine). I was afraid the reduced clearance could cause the striker to drag across the top of the sear and cause a light strike.

The doubling was a combination of a dirty striker that was preventing the striker return spring from doing its job while the sear failed to catch the striker while the slide reciprocated. Cleaning the striker and channel as well as polishing the striker and installing the stronger sear spring and modified sear eliminated both problems.

The new parts bumped up my trigger pull to 6 lbs and increased sear/striker overlap by 30%. I like the added safety margin and can still make hits at 100 yards on a steel silhouette so am happy with it.

I'm convinced the multiple targets shot one after another in what sometimes amounted to a series of sort of Bill Drill's exposed a problem that would have otherwise not been found as soon.

Here's a combined video of the April match. The gun ran well until the final stage where I had a failure to extract the fired case. The malfunction clearance screwed up my grip and caused me to hold the slide lock down so that the slide failed to lock back when empty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgvF6Jo-NSc

You can see the malfunction at 2:23.

I'm shooting my third and final (until I install an improved extractor) match tomorrow morning and will post results of it.

[The Apprentice]

I've been thinking about doing something like this as I am considering transitioning to a PPS as a carry gun and doing the majority of my training with it. I might have to take it though the couple classes planned this summer. How many rounds do you have through it overall I'm curious as to how these little gun hold up with higher round counts.

[RJ]

Good for you, Lomshek. Thanks for sharing. I have a PPS M2 and am thinking of doing USPSA with it this fall.

[miller_man]

And I thought I punished myself by shooting all my USPSA with my G19.
My production mags have nothing on you with your 7 rounders - that is SO MUCH mag changing!
I like the wind moving targets :p.

Good for you - think you'll definitely find the lows and highs of the shield.

[LittleLebowski]

Good job but I would consider shooting from AIWB as a purist with regards to shooting with your carry gear.

Bicycle shop...that's pretty cool.

[littlejerry]

Congrats on shooting your carry piece in a demanding match. It's interesting to see what works and what doesn't when the buzzer goes off. USPSA provides an excellent venue to test durability, accuracy, manipulations under stress, etc.

[rd62]

Great job. I don't shoot USPSA but also like you, I started shooting my IDPA matches with my carry gun, IWB holster, and regular Street clothes a few years ago. (Imagine that concept in IDPA huh?). I'm not as competitive as some but surprise many and feel I gain an added benefit from each match.

[ST911]

I put this in Mindset because it is much more about my desire to test my carry equipment in conditions that would be difficult to replicate in training than to impress everyone with my incredible match performances. :rolleyes:
...
I'm convinced the multiple targets shot one after another in what sometimes amounted to a series of sort of Bill Drill's exposed a problem that would have otherwise not been found as soon.

There's always some dude that shows up to the match with a gun he had no issues with in square range practice. Sometimes he's telling the truth, for the reason you note.

[Lomshek]

Good job but I would consider shooting from AIWB as a purist with regards to shooting with your carry gear.

Bicycle shop...that's pretty cool.

I thought about using the pocket holster and doing my first reload from my support side pocket (as I carry) just in case anyone else I shoot with needed to feel better about their score. ;)

Just finally got to unload the vehicle after spending my apres-match time helping the wife hang some paintings in a new little gallery in our 'burg (humblebrag).

I'll get the latest video uploaded and posted later but had one failure to extract (same as last month).

Performance wise my biggest gripe is the difficulty of acquiring a solid grip on the small gun which kills my ability to keep the gun steady for follow up shots and doesn't help my occasional miss.

Still running the factory sights which work OK but my eyes are starting to slip (48 and never needed glasses) and I'm hoping the HD's I'm considering will help but not too sure about the fatter front sight. Body shots at 25 meters are easy and I was shooting a steel silhouette at 100 last week but head shots at 25+ are "challenging". Going to see the optometrist too of course.

[Lomshek]

There's always some dude that shows up to the match with a gun he had no issues with in square range practice. Sometimes he's telling the truth, for the reason you note.

The biggest thing that I think is different is that most folks (I think) don't regularly set up a 30 round stage with walls, star, obstructed shots, etc to practice on. When I'm practicing I may set up a few targets and even a couple boxes to move between but I lack the energy to go whole hog. The added challenge of 5 slide lock reloads in a row while moving from between positions and target arrays will find holes in technique and gear that a FAST drill, triple nickel and Bill drill won't.

[GJM]

I think Lomshek and Rich_Jenkins should petition USPSA HQ for a new PPS/Shield class -- apparently there is a form you can fill out to do that.

[Lomshek]

I think Lomshek and Rich_Jenkins should petition USPSA HQ for a new PPS/Shield class -- apparently there is a form you can fill out to do that.

Makes more sense than PCC. LOL

Funny thing is I'm shooting in Limited because I've modified the grip and have the Apex trigger (externally visible).

[GJM]

Here is the form -- I saw it on another forum, in response to Rich asking a question there.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zps30ccwtrj.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zps30ccwtrj.jpeg.html)

[RJ]

Funny thing is I'm shooting in Limited because I've modified the grip and have the Apex trigger (externally visible).

Answer I got on a couple forums was that with my PPS M2 I'd be in Limited 10, apparently. Also, I'd need to watch my draw did not result in my muzzle going more than 3' outside my feet due to cant.

Looking a bit more, I discovered that IPSC apparently shows the PPS in the 'production' gun list, which I thought was weird.

Anyway, I'll have to give this a try at my local club when back in FL this fall. It is great to see folks competing with normal everyday carry gear.

[Mr_White]

Lomshek, I'm haven't watched your videos yet, but I will go back and do that soon. One suggestion though, might be to shoot Limited-10 instead of Limited, so that the lower capacity magazines don't hurt score as bad.

[Lomshek]

Lomshek, I'm haven't watched your videos yet, but I will go back and do that soon. One suggestion though, might be to shoot Limited-10 instead of Limited, so that the lower capacity magazines don't hurt score as bad.

Honestly I should have done L10 but literally no one in our club shoots it as every state nearby has no mag restrictions and it never occurred to me. These being little Level 1 matches it really doesn't matter since I'm going to get stomped by most shooters anyway. We're in the southeastern part of the state (far from CO) and get shooters from AR, OK & MO too.

[Mr_White]

Lomshek,

Totally cool to see you doing your thing and using the gun you want to use in USPSA.

Some people at I were just talking about this at a speed steel match yesterday - I love how inclusive USPSA is of so many different guns and gear, even if there are self-imposed disadvantages. At least you can PLAY THE GAME if you want to. Using difficult gear is on us individually. That is really cool.

I very much enjoy seeing people besides myself addressing USPSA in an originalist, run-what-you-brung way. It's great to see a few people returning to that part of the USPSA roots.

I would bet that you will really improve your on-demand abilities with your Shield, just from using it in the taxing and robust environment of an open, public competition. I certainly have noticed that improvement for me with the G34! Looks to me like you are running that Shield well.

Man, I hope you got the dead trigger and doubling issue worked out...Eek dude, guns not firing when you did tell them to, or firing when you didn't tell them to (or more than you told them to) - all very scary.

Rich, I bet this is a lot like what USPSA is going to look like for you with the PPS!


Honestly I should have done L10 but literally no one in our club shoots it as every state nearby has no mag restrictions and it never occurred to me. These being little Level 1 matches it really doesn't matter since I'm going to get stomped by most shooters anyway. We're in the southeastern part of the state (far from CO) and get shooters from AR, OK & MO too.

Heh, I hear you there dude. Even if they made a Division tailored to me specifically (like maybe via the helpful form posted above...), I'm not sure I'd want to shoot it...I mean if it was me and two other people, I'd probably rather continue shooting Limited where there can be some real action.

[Lomshek]

I would bet that you will really improve your on-demand abilities with your Shield, just from using it in the taxing and robust environment of an open, public competition.
That is really what my goal was in doing this. My competitive background is in bicycle road racing where I was able to make some money as a Cat 2 doing everything up to Pro/Am races. A person can do all the interval sessions they want but adding in the stresses of competition and the unknowns you inevitably encounter and have to learn to deal with will push you far harder than you can push yourself. I can't go out and get into gun fights to gain experience and test my gear (not sure I'd want to make a hobby of that even if I could) so this is the best I get.

[Lomshek]

Man, I hope you got the dead trigger and doubling issue worked out...Eek dude, guns not firing when you did tell them to, or firing when you didn't tell them to (or more than you told them to) - all very scary.
Pretty sure that's dealt with. I did some serious measuring and found the problems and corrected them. For those wondering here are the dimensions that caused the problem.

..........................................SEAR/STRIKER OVERLAP........................SEAR/STRIKER CLEARANCE WHEN FIRED..............................TRIGGER PULL
GUN.......................................WHEN COCKED..............................(gap between top of sear and bottom of striker)

Shield w/factory parts...................0.05".................................................. ..............0.023".................................................. ...............?

Shield w/Apex AEK (https://store.apextactical.com/WebDirect/Products/Details/191833).......................0.34".................................................. ..............0.0145".................................................. ...............4 lb 13 oz

Shield w/fixed Apex parts.............0.043".................................................. .............0.0145".................................................. ...............6 lb

I hand fitted the Apex sear for more striker engagement and installed an Apex FSS sear spring to increase sear spring tension (the lady at Apex was very helpful). Between a faster resetting sear and more engagement I'm confident I fixed that. Since my fix I've put something over 600 rounds through it without any repeats.

I do still want to adjust the trigger bar loop so that the sear is more fully depressed when fired to get the sear further out of the way of the striker and eliminate any chance of the striker dragging across the sear causing a light strike. My brother in law has a M&P full size with the Apex FSS (I do too) and he's having light strikes that I think we've traced down to the striker dragging the sear as his clearance measures at just .0035" (my M&P FS with FSS that functions fine has .01" clearance).

My only concern reliability wise is the two failures to extract I've had in those 600'ish rounds. The gun cycles fine but ends up leaving an empty case partially in the chamber and tries to shove the next round into the ass of the empty. The extractor has a lot (too much I think) excess space between it and the breech face that allows the case head to bounce around front-to-back during extraction. I suspect this is to try and ensure reliable feeding so that the case rim can slip under the extractor easily.

You can see the amount of slop behind this HST round.
http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/IMG_1987.jpg

There is .039" of extra space behind a case rim. The HST rim measures .046" so you can almost fit another rim behind the rim. I understand not wanting to make it a press fit but that seems really sloppy.

Unless Apex comes out with a Shield FRE very quickly my goal is to get an extractor welded up and then fit it myself for reliable feeding and infallible extraction. The gun's extraction pattern reinforces my suspicion that the extractor is the weak link right now. When I fire it cases move out pretty briskly to the side but over a wide arc. When someone less experienced fires it the ejection pattern is all over the place.

Early on I had some issues from the recoil spring assembly binding up. S&W uses a goofy telescoping spring and the springs are pretty crudely finished with the ends looking like they were cut off with diagonal cutters. It's not able to be disassembled (I tried) so I douched mine in oil and fired it enough to self polish. That seems to have fixed the issue although I'd like to get a quality RSA. The only company that offers one has you using the main spring from the factory RSA which is too weak by itself (my opinion) and will cause battering problems long term.

[60167]

I used to wrench at a shop for five years. I still do occasionally. Great job.

[Mr_White]

That is really what my goal was in doing this. My competitive background is in bicycle road racing where I was able to make some money as a Cat 2 doing everything up to Pro/Am races. A person can do all the interval sessions they want but adding in the stresses of competition and the unknowns you inevitably encounter and have to learn to deal with will push you far harder than you can push yourself. I can't go out and get into gun fights to gain experience and test my gear (not sure I'd want to make a hobby of that even if I could) so this is the best I get.

Totally agree. As I was watching your videos, I kept thinking that I don't remember many (any?) instances of seeing someone running a Shield or similar small gun that well outside of a short and narrow drill. It's great to see someone pushing that kind of gun in broader circumstances, instead of just resigning themselves to a muted performance that is hopefully 'good enough.'

[Lomshek]

I shot my third (and final for a while) match with my Shield last Sunday. The gun shot fine with the exception of one failure to extract midway through the match. I'm averaging one FTE every 300 - 400 rounds (thus far only with reloads not my HST carry ammo). I'm convinced the culprit is the large gap (as photographed on page two) between the breech face and extractor hook allowing the case rim to bounce back and forth between the two and occasionally bounce out of the extractor's grasp.

Once I get the extractor fixed or replaced I'll shoot a couple more matches to test that out (beyond my non-match shooting) and otherwise probably shoot it in a couple matches a year just to keep in practice. My intent is to have the Shield set up identically to my full size (trigger, sights, POA) so that the differences are minimal and I'm not developing conflicting habits with the two guns.
If anyone wants to put a word in with S&W I'd appreciate a more accurate full size and a G19 mid-size (never heard that before have you).

Here's the video of me doing this match. My draws are fairly slow for a few reasons. The holster I made for this exercise places the butt of the gun a little low and my belt interferes with my thumb, the vestigial safety is a little awkward to de-activate and lastly I'm trying very hard to keep my finger off the trigger until I'm on target and I'm moving a little slower to try and beat that into my subconscious.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5gIYvNc8Sw

For anyone considering doing this themselves I'd suggest at least 40 rounds carried total. I have 6 seven round magazines (42 rounds for those who struggle at math) and that's barely enough if I factor in a potential malfunction clearance or a bad stage where the steel refuses to fall. I use the cheapo Uncle Mike's single stack double mag pouch (http://ads.midwayusa.com/product/343767/uncle-mikes-double-magazine-belt-pouch-for-single-stack-magazine-belt-loop-kydex-black). I had to tweak them with some washers to get the tension just right.


On an earlier trip to the range I spent some time trying to work on my trigger finger discipline (hard index until my sights are completely on target) and work on my 25 meter accuracy at the same time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bumgvDtJmTE
9 hits out of 11 and an average draw of 2.5 seconds. Once I'm comfortable with my finger discipline I'll speed up. At the last session I was able to stay under 2 seconds but was only at about 60% hits.

Last thing is a 25 meter group pic. About 4.5" 8 round group fired off the bench with HST 147gr +p.
For comparison my full size M&P will do a little over 6" at best. :( Really hoping Apex starts accepting new work soon so I can have them install a barrel.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z67/bonecreekgunclub/Forum%20photos/IMG_1993.jpg

Once I get a second (or third) Shield I'm tempted to weld up a barrel and refit it to increase the accuracy as much as possible. Not gonna play games like that on my carry gun until it's proven reliable but a 2"/25M pocket gun would be nice.

[BillSWPA]

Still running the factory sights which work OK but my eyes are starting to slip (48 and never needed glasses) and I'm hoping the HD's I'm considering will help but not too sure about the fatter front sight. Body shots at 25 meters are easy and I was shooting a steel silhouette at 100 last week but head shots at 25+ are "challenging". Going to see the optometrist too of course.

If you end up needing bifocals, get the kind with distance on top, reading on the bottom, and a gradual transition in between. You don't want the kind with a line in between or the kind with near and far dispersed throughout the lens. At least for me, that transition region between near and far is perfect for a sharply focused front sight.