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View Full Version : Competing using different carry position than ccw.



JCS
04-30-2016, 05:50 PM
I recently got into competitive shooting. However, I carry appendix position every day but it seems most competitions don't allow this. I recently discovered I could carry their if I shoot limited or above in uspsa but I shoot Glock 9mm for competition.

What do my fellow appendix people do? I only got into competitive shooting to make me a better shooter. I don't want to "game" necessarily. I want to keep my focus on the defensive aspects of shooting. However, I'm also competitive so that gives me reservations about shooting limited shooting minor pf.

Am I overthinking it? Because trying to find time practicing drawing from two positions is taxing.


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BCL
04-30-2016, 06:09 PM
Gabe seems to be doing pretty well shooting Limited Minor with a Glock 9mm shooting from the appendix position; he could speak to this problem better than anyone. If you think about it, given that you are competitive, you could pull a Gabe and use the perceived limitations to make you practice that much harder, and thus get that much better at shooting.

JCS
04-30-2016, 10:09 PM
Gabe seems to be doing pretty well shooting Limited Minor with a Glock 9mm shooting from the appendix position; he could speak to this problem better than anyone. If you think about it, given that you are competitive, you could pull a Gabe and use the perceived limitations to make you practice that much harder, and thus get that much better at shooting.

My skills are no where near his. On the other hand I do think it would really push me to get better. Good points.

GJM
04-30-2016, 10:14 PM
If you want to shoot IDPA or USPSA Production, single stack or Carry Optics, you won't be shooting appendix. You need to decide whether devotion to appendix carry is sufficient to limit your gaming choices.

Luke
04-30-2016, 10:16 PM
The way I see it you have a couple options.


1. game it and shoot game gear to be competitive i.e. No limited minor

2. Treat it as time behind the gun in a semi stressful situation that is simply a way for you to out your carry gear to use in a"dynamic" way. Operator points for use of dynamic BTW..

The only way you can have both is if you are insanely good LIKE MR WHITE!


I started off with option 2. But due to wanting to be more competitive at my current level I now shoot production in a full blown production rig. I still carry AIWB. I started out shooting carry gear and have decided I was to be a gamer. I still think time behind the gun is time behind the gun..


ETA: if I was a face shooter there would be no way I'd carry any other way then what I did for work and no way I'd use any other holster than that of which I wore at work. But I'm a lame civilian who will never use my gat if things go right.

GJM
04-30-2016, 10:24 PM
If you decide to go Limited minor from concealment, do it for yourself, because your competitors will give you little to no cred for it. Mostly they will be puzzled as to why you would handicap yourself in playing what clearly is a game.

Smitty79
05-01-2016, 08:08 AM
One more plug for Mr White. He usually wins Limited where I shoot USPSA. USPSA is a way to solve problems with a gun. I shoot to get better and have fun. I like the competition. If your focus is to get better with your carry gear, go for it.

GuanoLoco
05-01-2016, 08:31 AM
I run gamer gear, mostly USPSA Production and occasionally IDPA (but less and less).

Carry might be OWB and/or AIWB and/or weak side cargo pocket depending on which gat or gatz I am carrying (I mix and match to meet the occasiona nd level of concealment requirement).

My non-game concealed draws are practiced FAR less. I do have some concern about this, but also consider that trying to win in a 'quick-draw' situation with an armed opponent is probably a losing proposition to begin with. Better to go for the concealed draw in a distracted moment.

I should probably optimize/train for improved concealed draws but frankly it eats into my gamer training time.

joshs
05-01-2016, 08:42 AM
You don't have to be nearly as good as Gabe to be competitive in local matches shooting Limited Minor from concealment. Several USPSA shooters in my area shoot from their AIWB carry gear. For me, I have pretty limited time to spend practicing, so I prefer to not have to practice with different guns, gear, and carry positions.

Also, minor is only a disadvantage if you don't shoot As ;) (says the guy who just switched to L10 major).

LOKNLOD
05-01-2016, 08:53 AM
Assuming you're not becoming a full-time competitor, but rather are a normal dude who completes once or twice a month, then you are going to be getting, what, 6-12 total draws, from competing out of a normal holster? Unless the matches are the only time you're drawing from the holster, and you're not doing any practice or dry work, then I don't see how it's going to negatively affect anything.

If you drive a manual-trans commuter bucket all week, but occasionally drive your wife's auto-trans car on the weekend, does it screw up your ability to drive your own car?

Drawing from an un-concealed, USPSA-style holster during a situation where you know you're about to draw and can momentarily focus on doing it, is not rocket science. I wouldn't spend any time practicing that over my normal appendix draw stroke from concealment. If you reach the point that shaving a few tenths of a second off your draw stroke is holding you back from winning the match, then you can decide if you want to devote time to it.

I wouldn't discourage anyone from following in Mr. White's shoes, and competing from appendix, but I also don't think it's mandatory to get the value out of the competition and it may end up being a red herring to worry about holster position. It's not something to get wrapped around the axle about.

Luke
05-01-2016, 08:58 AM
I like that ^^^^

LittleLebowski
05-01-2016, 09:24 AM
If you want to shoot IDPA or USPSA Production, single stack or Carry Optics, you won't be shooting appendix. You need to decide whether devotion to appendix carry is sufficient to limit your gaming choices.

This. To me since it is a game, my rankings don't matter.

GJM
05-01-2016, 10:12 AM
FIfY


This. To me since it is a game, my rankings do matter.


How many people are willing to put in the effort to really get better at a game, and are happy losing at that game?

LittleLebowski
05-01-2016, 10:16 AM
How many people are willing to put in the effort to really get better at a game, and are happy losing at that game?

I'm just competing with myself, I just enjoy shooting and want to get better at it. I suck at stage planning and really need to work at shooting on the move; USPSA helps me with that and...


it is fun.

45dotACP
05-01-2016, 11:13 AM
It's a conundrum....

I want to beat my previous time....

I also want to beat everyone else's time.

I also don't want to get killed in the street, but then I AM already shooting USPSA so there is that....

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Nephrology
05-01-2016, 11:16 AM
It's a conundrum....

I want to beat my previous time....

I also want to beat everyone else's time.

I also don't want to get killed in the street, but then I AM already shooting USPSA so there is that....

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Tactical reloads without retention will get ya KILLED in the STREETS

Mr_White
05-03-2016, 04:06 PM
You guys are way too kind to me. :)


I recently got into competitive shooting. However, I carry appendix position every day but it seems most competitions don't allow this. I recently discovered I could carry their if I shoot limited or above in uspsa but I shoot Glock 9mm for competition.

What do my fellow appendix people do? I only got into competitive shooting to make me a better shooter. I don't want to "game" necessarily. I want to keep my focus on the defensive aspects of shooting. However, I'm also competitive so that gives me reservations about shooting limited shooting minor pf.

Am I overthinking it? Because trying to find time practicing drawing from two positions is taxing.


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Other people have already said most of what there is to say.

I think at the root of everything, is you deciding why you want to shoot USPSA and what you want to get out of it.

If you want to compete in the game, you should seriously consider playing it straight up. It is absolutely true that there are only a handful of draws per match. I think it is also true that as long as you are practicing with your carry rig separate from the competition, the handful of draws from your gamer rig within the competition aren't going to hurt your draws from your carry rig. I also think it is true that if you want the MAXIMUM possible familiarity and confidence with your carry gear, that you should stick with it for competition.

For people who carry certain ways - pocket, shoulder, ankle, deep concealment - there simply is no option to compete from their normal concealment.

A lot of people's carry guns are going to be way more challenging than my carry gun. Part of what I do is choose a strong compromise between street-sensible gear that's practical for me to carry, and highly capable gear that isn't total ruin in competitive shooting. It won't work the same way for everyone. Rich_Jenkins is talking about shooting USPSA with his Walther PPS - that's going to be a lot tougher than what I do.

So I think you need to know yourself, and whether you are going to walk away from the USPSA match wondering how you might have placed if you weren't using unnecessarily difficult gear, or if you are going to walk away from the USPSA match wondering how closely you could duplicate your technical performance in the competition using dedicated gamer gear, but with what you actually carry. I enjoy walking away from the match having minimized doubt about that second point, so that is why I do things the way I do (and this is how I have the most FUN too - a powerful factor that is not to be overlooked.)

It's also ok to change your mind as you go.

It's a pretty classically strong way to balance these issues by playing the game straight up, with a gun that is pretty close, but not identical, to what you actually carry - like shooting a juiced G34 in Production, then carrying a stock G19 in a different holster, for example.

cheby
05-03-2016, 05:01 PM
To me there is no point of competing without trying to win. "Competing with yourself" does not work. You are not going to get better without passion to win. You could spend years screwing around with your carry gun and remain on the same level which is extremely discouraging. Winning is motivating. Just shoot Production and practice with your carry gun separately. You should be able to adopt to different situations and different guns quickly. It is totally possible. Play the game trying to improve and win! The skills that you gain competing will help you with your carry gun enormously.
I understand the power of timmydom though. It is mammoth:)

olstyn
05-03-2016, 06:07 PM
Is it insane to suggest acquiring a .40 version of your carry gun that would fit the same holster but allow you to score major? I guess that might be too "gamey?"

YVK
05-03-2016, 08:30 PM
Ive thought of it more than once. My problem is that I don't reload and commercial .40 ammo kicks hard enough for me to a) not wanna shoot and practice with it b) be enough of impediment to performance gains. If I had a steady source of gaming .40 ammo, I'd be shooting Lim major out of appendix with a P30/L.
Meanwhile I compete with a game setup and carry AIWB. No sleep lost.

GJM
05-03-2016, 08:50 PM
If I had a steady source of gaming .40 ammo, I'd be shooting Lim major out of appendix with a P30/L.

I am calling BS -- how many rounds of .40 have you shot in the last year or two or five? Besides no glory in being second, I think a PF member already beat you to the LEM Limited appendix thing and said it wasn't very hard. You are just fantasizing about HK pistols because all yours are gone being improved, and your Tangfoglio is running, well, like a Tangfoglio.

YVK
05-03-2016, 10:23 PM
I see your BS call and raise it 2 RMRs. I shot half thou of .357 that you and everyone else says is easier to shoot than .40, out of P2000 that you and Jody say is easier to shoot than P30. That P2000 has a distinction of being a pistol I got rid of in shortest period of time since its purchase, and I would trade you the remainder of my .357 ammo for a DeltaPoint Pro that has actual 190 hours battery life.

Sal Picante
05-03-2016, 11:50 PM
your Tangfoglio is running, well, like a Tangfoglio.

.... Wait... Whut?

Tanfo? When did YVK go full retard and get a Tanfo?

YVK
05-04-2016, 12:07 AM
Double full retard. About a month ago. Haven't even shot a match with it yet. Combination of wanting to try a purpose-built gun + some ergo issues with Berettas that I can't figure out. Until this past Sunday I didn't regret trying, since Sunday I am glad I'd not gotten around to sell the Berettas.

GJM
05-04-2016, 04:29 AM
Combination of wanting to try a purpose-built gun

Purpose-built is how you describe a gun you send away, wait and spend money, and then it requires special primers and maintenance to run.

taadski
05-04-2016, 08:16 AM
.... Wait... Whut?

Tanfo? When did YVK go full retard and get a Tanfo?


About a week before GJM bought his. Surprised face ---> :rolleyes:

GJM
05-04-2016, 10:06 AM
About a week before GJM bought his. Surprised face ---> :rolleyes:


Nope, I bought one after YVK, and am leaving it unmolested in the safe, since YVK needs one or more spares.

cheby
05-04-2016, 10:22 AM
So what do you think of stock 2 vs shadow? After I tried a few stock 2s, I am not impressed with their triggers at all. They do look shiny though and the box is awesome:)

rob_s
05-04-2016, 10:24 AM
it seems to me there are two issues facing an AIWB guy that wants to compete from his carry holster: (1) the carry position puts you in Limited and (2) shooting Limited Minor is moar harder.

My question is, would a .40 Glock be capable of making Major? So, then, could someone just buy the .40 version of their carry gun and shoot that in matches, set up otherwise identically to their carry gun? Whn I cared about such things, I always had one carry gun and one competing gun anyway, both Glock 19s, so it wouldn't have been a big deal for me to get my competition gun in a different caliber. Hell, I would think one could even carry a Glock 19 and compete with a Glock 35, using the same sights, trigger, controls, and holster for both guns, and not have too many "competition scars", or at least none I would think matter.

taadski
05-04-2016, 10:28 AM
Nope, I bought one after YVK, and am leaving it unmolested in the safe, since YVK needs one or more spares.

Ummmm....that's what I said. ;)

Mr_White
05-04-2016, 10:43 AM
it seems to me there are two issues facing an AIWB guy that wants to compete from his carry holster: (1) the carry position puts you in Limited and (2) shooting Limited Minor is moar harder.

My question is, would a .40 Glock be capable of making Major? So, then, could someone just buy the .40 version of their carry gun and shoot that in matches, set up otherwise identically to their carry gun? Whn I cared about such things, I always had one carry gun and one competing gun anyway, both Glock 19s, so it wouldn't have been a big deal for me to get my competition gun in a different caliber. Hell, I would think one could even carry a Glock 19 and compete with a Glock 35, using the same sights, trigger, controls, and holster for both guns, and not have too many "competition scars", or at least none I would think matter.

One could definitely do that and I think it is a very sensible way to handle things.

A big thing that has kept me from going that route myself though is that I really like the enormous pressure to shoot well imposed by Minor scoring - especially in a Division where Major is allowed. I think I would become a worse shooter if it were suddenly game-profitable for me to shoot A/C on most targets. I think Minor is a lot better influence on me, with USPSA not being my sole focus, but as a means to further overall pistol shooting skill.

rob_s
05-04-2016, 11:18 AM
One could definitely do that and I think it is a very sensible way to handle things.

A big thing that has kept me from going that route myself though is that I really like the enormous pressure to shoot well imposed by Minor scoring - especially in a Division where Major is allowed. I think I would become a worse shooter if it were suddenly game-profitable for me to shoot A/C on most targets. I think Minor is a lot better influence on me, with USPSA not being my sole focus, but as a means to further overall pistol shooting skill.

I could see that. As others in the thread have discussed, I suppose it depends on what you're looking to get out of participating in USPSA.

One reason for my foray into the CZ world of USPSA Production was that I had been shooting my Glock 19, with all the train-as-you'll-LARP and other "mindest" stuff in my head. Eventually I had a mindset shift to "let's see how good you do when the equipment isn't holding you back" and bought the Shadow, various holsters and gear, etc. Turns out, what was holding me back the most was an interest in life outside of shooting/training/competing/talking-about-shooting/training/competing. And I'm now OK with that, and back to the Glock (34) as a less-expensive and easier-to-support compromise. But, I don't think the holster position thing is a problem for me anymore and don't actually shoot near as much as I used to.

While I get that many *can* do well with "lesser" equipment, or equipment that some might say holds them back or holds them to a higher standard, I'm no longer in that camp and therefore am looking to use whatever tool or equipment gives me the best (quantifiable) performance.

Mr_White
05-04-2016, 11:26 AM
I'm no longer in that camp and therefore am looking to use whatever tool or equipment gives me the best (quantifiable) performance.

That is spelled O-P-E-N-G-U-N. ;)

rob_s
05-04-2016, 11:29 AM
That is spelled O-P-E-N-G-U-N. ;)

True, to an extent. But then there's the cost of entry, and cost of support, which I'm trying to balance. I already have Glock magazines scattered all over, and holster, etc. And the gun itself is $600 not $6,000.

Sal Picante
05-04-2016, 12:01 PM
So what do you think of stock 2 vs shadow? After I tried a few stock 2s, I am not impressed with their triggers at all. They do look shiny though and the box is awesome:)

CZ is good... Tanfo?

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/731798/PF/nonono.jpg

Sal Picante
05-04-2016, 12:01 PM
Nope, I bought one after YVK, and am leaving it unmolested in the safe, since YVK needs one or more spares.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/731798/PF/jchan.jpg

GJM
05-04-2016, 12:56 PM
Rob, if you dropped an optic onto one of your G19 slides and shot Carry Optics, you will likely be able to outshoot your Shadow, and get a point from Gabe for your timminess.

rob_s
05-04-2016, 01:04 PM
Rob, if you dropped an optic onto one of your G19 slides and shot Carry Optics, you will likely be able to outshoot your Shadow, and get a point from Gabe for your timminess.

Then there's that whole cost:benefit thing...

I played with an early Bowie Deltapoint M&P. Even wrote an article about it, I think. while I'm sure it's a case of "practice more", I had a hard time making the transition.

Mr_White
05-04-2016, 01:59 PM
While I get that many *can* do well with "lesser" equipment, or equipment that some might say holds them back or holds them to a higher standard, I'm no longer in that camp and therefore am looking to use whatever tool or equipment gives me the best (quantifiable) performance.


But then there's the cost of entry, and cost of support, which I'm trying to balance. I already have Glock magazines scattered all over, and holster, etc. And the gun itself is $600 not $6,000.

A lot of people would probably argue that if you want to go for pure performance, you need to use a CZ/Tanfo in Production, a 2011 in Limited, or a $6000 Open gun in Open.

If you want to go with a less expensive option and would like to use gear you already have, that sounds like Glock all the way. I would think that if you are going to use a Glock, you'd be most competitive in Production.

Is there something else you are considering using for Production? Are you looking at some other Division?