What's Next?

[Steven C.]

My most recent purchases:

M&P 9
HK P30
HK 45

Notice a pattern?

What am I buying next?

Steven C.

[Red Leader]

Haha I'm right there with ya.

I almost can't wait to hear what is going to be tortured next. I'd love to see a Glock 19, an XDm, or something older like a Ruger P95 or 3rd gen S&W.

[F-Trooper05]

Gen 4 Glock might be cool, but it also might be boring since no one really doubts what Glocks are capable of. I wouldn't mind seeing an XDm, but only because I'd be rooting for it to fail.

[willowofwisp]

Gen 4 Glock might be cool, but it also might be boring since no one really doubts what Glocks are capable of. I wouldn't mind seeing an XDm, but only because I'd be rooting for it to fail.

I'd be doing the same haha.


Sent from my Evo

[gtmtnbiker98]

Missed the boat on this one.

[F-Trooper05]

I think the OP's referring to the next PT test gun.

[ToddG]

Notice a pattern?

I'm embarrassed to say I didn't. In fact, until I read Red Leader's post, I was thinking, "what kind of pattern does that guy think we can find in a list of three? Nimrod!" :cool:

[gtmtnbiker98]

I think the OP's referring to the next PT test gun.
Way over my head, totally missed it. Thanks for waking me up, dude.

[gtmtnbiker98]

I'm embarrassed to say I didn't. In fact, until I read Red Leader's post, I was thinking, "what kind of pattern does that guy think we can find in a list of three? Nimrod!" :cool:Glad I wasn't the only one. I'm in good company, I suppose.:cool:

[David]

a G4-G19 without Glock involvement / endorsement.

[LittleLebowski]

a G4-G19 without Glock involvement / endorsement.

The Glock involvement doesn't matter. Todd is brutally honest in his reviews as I'm sure you know from pistol-training.com

[David]

The Glock involvement doesn't matter. Todd is brutally honest in his reviews as I'm sure you know from pistol-training.com

I meant that Glock likely never get's involved in or endorses "torture tests".

[Kyle Reese]

I guess it all depends upon terminology and semantics. Actually shooting the weapon alot isn't torture testing it, IMHO.

It's not like anyone is throwing it in the ocean, pouring mustard down the barrel or freezing it solid for a year.


I meant that Glock likely never get's involved in or endorses "torture tests".

[David]

I guess it all depends upon terminology and semantics. Actually shooting the weapon alot isn't torture testing it, IMHO.

It's not like anyone is throwing it in the ocean, pouring mustard down the barrel or freezing it solid for a year.

That's why I had "torture tests" in quotation marks.

[Joe in PNG]

Ah, you filthee bourgeoisie with yer fancy Glocks and H&K! Hozabout something cheap for us poor proles. :p

I kind of like Red Leader's idea of reviewing a Ruger P-95.

[joshs]

You have to think about what the manufacturer is going to get out of the testing. There is a reason that the guns previously tested were all relatively new at the time of their testing. A manufacturer isn't going to want to pay to have a gun tested unless some segment of the market is holding off on purchasing due to lack of information in the market. This rules out older guns like the 3rd gen S&Ws and the P95. Since the release of the Gen 4 9mms has been somewhat less than perfection, I think Glock stands to gain a lot from having a G 19/17 successfully complete a p-tc test.

Those of you suggesting the XD must really hate Todd, he does carry the test gun, so it needs to work if he has to shoot someone.

[YVK]

You have to think about what the manufacturer is going to get out of the testing. There is a reason that the guns previously tested were all relatively new at the time of their testing. A manufacturer isn't going to want to pay to have a gun tested unless some segment of the market is holding off on purchasing due to lack of information in the market. This rules out older guns like the 3rd gen S&Ws and the P95. Since the release of the Gen 4 9mms has been somewhat less than perfection, I think Glock stands to gain a lot from having a G 19/17 successfully complete a p-tc test.

Those of you suggesting the XD must really hate Todd, he does carry the test gun, so it needs to work if he has to shoot someone.

This is a good post.

I have been wondering awhile ago if H&K has seen any change in sales of P30 and HK45 before and after Todd's tests; granted that overall volume of sales and availability of these two models may impact any statistical inferences.

RE Glock 19: I don't mean to stir anything, and I know a number of members here and elsewhere have had theirs run well, and there has been noise that overall late-production Gen 4s are running, but am I alone who feels that the fact that Glock has had Todd's G19 for some time, trying to figure WTF, obviates a need for a "torture" test?

[F-Trooper05]

I have been wondering awhile ago if H&K has seen any change in sales of P30 and HK45 before and after Todd's tests.

My guess is yes...



http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k40/millert12005/DSCN0122.jpg

[Chipster]

I gotta be honest. I had a P30 prior to finding Todd's website and traded it away fairly quickly. I drank from the cup again with a P30L and recently traded it off for another P30, this time with the LEM. Todd has probably sold more pistols than any company salesman in the last couple of years. Kind of like when Ernie Langdon won the IDPA with the P220 ST. Had a hard time finding one of those for a long time afterwards.

I think it is time for the manufacturers to get a clue about web forums and such. I remember when Todd was posting on Sigforum and I would say that helped out their (SIG) business. I know the internet is full of misinformation and all, but it is about time they get on board in a big way, and with the right people and intentions.

Look at the holster makers that are online (Raven, Ralston, etc..) and I would venture to say they are doing better than the ones that are not. I know Ralston's comment about the new AIWB garnered my attention (now I just need to be first on the list).

Personally, I hope he does a quality (Baer, Sprinfield Pro, Nighthawk, etc....) 1911 for his next test. Let us find out who the clear victor is now.

[Steven C.]

I'm embarrassed to say I didn't. In fact, until I read Red Leader's post, I was thinking, "what kind of pattern does that guy think we can find in a list of three? Nimrod!" :cool:

I'll be sure to type more slowly in the future.:D

[Steven C.]

This is a good post.

I have been wondering awhile ago if H&K has seen any change in sales of P30 and HK45 before and after Todd's tests; granted that overall volume of sales and availability of these two models may impact any statistical inferences.

RE Glock 19: I don't mean to stir anything, and I know a number of members here and elsewhere have had theirs run well, and there has been noise that overall late-production Gen 4s are running, but am I alone who feels that the fact that Glock has had Todd's G19 for some time, trying to figure WTF, obviates a need for a "torture" test?

I think it's safe to say that Todd has sold more pistols in the US than HK marketing has. Someone once told me "those 'dudes' couldn't sell sex for free." Or something like that.

[MTechnik]

Three weeks ago if you told me I'd be considering a P30, I woulda said "glock or m&p, maaaaaybe a 1911"

meanwhile, in the last couple of months...

[David]

Personally, I hope he does a quality (Baer, Sprinfield Pro, Nighthawk, etc....) 1911 for his next test. Let us find out who the clear victor is now.

That would be pretty sweet but I think he (Todd) said on pistol-training.com (http://pistol-training.com/archives/3978#comments) after the HK45 run ended he wasn't going to do another 45.

" I am not doing another .45 any time soon. By “any time soon” I mean “ever.” "

By ToddG on Dec 16, 2010

But if we can dream then I'd want to see a GP100 and the bill for the ammo. I already asked him about the odds of ever doing a revolver and got a "no". :mad:

[JV_]

I already asked him about the odds of ever doing a revolver and got a "no". :mad:Todd is usually very clear about whether something lies within his area of specialty, or not.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?63-Revolver-specific-training&p=459&viewfull=1#post459

[TAP]

I wonder if we will see the next test subject in this weekend's AFHF class. I do know that one of the students works for a major manufacturer. Is that a coincidence? Only time will tell but I'm looking forward to seeing what's next.

[orionz06]

Maybe it will be an FN Five-Seven.

[ToddG]

I wonder if we will see the next test subject in this weekend's AFHF class.

I'm not even shooting my own gun this weekend. I'm flying into town Friday, driving up to Glock, and borrowing a Gen4 G17 for the class. Should be interesting...

[TAP]

I'm not even shooting my own gun this weekend. I'm flying into town Friday, driving up to Glock, and borrowing a Gen4 G17 for the class. Should be interesting...

Make sure it has the maritime spring cups installed...LOL...looks like we may need it this weekend. I can loan you a snorkel and some inflatable arm floaties.

[Red Leader]

Random question I suppose, but...

why all the hate for the XDs? Several posters mentioned that they'd be excited to see an XD fail this kind of torture test.

Why?

Is it simply to justify preconceptions about a certain brand, or have these folks put 1000s of rounds through XDs and would like to see how a test's results compared to their own?

Pistol-training had some articles similar to this (trust no one and keep an open mind), when folks dismiss firearms as 'junk' either because they've never had lengthy experience with one, or the ergonomics or manual of arms doesn't fit them, etc., and they have a brand preference for something else.

I, for one, would be very interested in seeing an XDm test since the pistols seem pretty ergonomic and now have a possible option for a CCW (XDm compact).

I think whatever firearm is tested I'd love to see pass with flying colors, because that is just one more option that gets on the table:D

[LittleLebowski]

There's nothing wrong with more options on the table. I think right now is a very good time for the buyer looking for a quality pistol.

That being said, there is not a lot of love for the XD because of:

-their marketing campaign.

-the simple fact that no major dept nor agency has ever adopted the XD. The M&P is years newer than the XD and has made significant inroads into the LE market and even the BATF.

[ToddG]

The cold hard truth is that the XD series of guns have a poor track record when you get beyond the local/casual shooter level. As LilL points out, no major LE agency has adopted them though they've been tested more than once. Some reasonably well known competitors have toyed with them and found them to have enough functional problems that they're totally missing from truly high level IDPA & USPSA matches. The requirement that the grip safety be constantly engaged for the slide to move creates substantial issues for certain 1-handed and "officer down" techniques.

I've had a few people start an AFHF class with an XD-series pistol. I've had far fewer finish with one, and I've never seen one go through a whole class without a problem of some kind.

Folks can call it hating if they wish, but facts are facts. If I had to choose between an XD with 50,000 rounds of free ammo or a P30 with 0 rounds of free ammo, I would pick the P30 every time.

[Slavex]

while I certainly can't say my own CZ has been a 100% reliable pistol, even if it's my own fault, I will unabashedly state that the XD's are worse. I run a weekly class, typically 250-300 rounds a night, and I've yet to see an XD complete the night. Not once, every single one that's been brought out has failed so badly the owners got rid of them shortly after.
I'm still hoping for the G19 to be the next test gun.

[beltjones]

I think, to be fair, an XDm should be the subject of a short (maybe 20,000 round) pistol-training test. Of course that can be truncated if the thing just won't run. I think a lot of people would find it interesting.

My own experience with them is pretty minimal. I've shot a few, and I've seen them in local classes and competitions. One I saw in a class ran well, but the guy couldn't get the magazines out of it at speed. I've seen others in competitions choke and puke all over the place, but it's hard to attribute that to the gun because every competitor monkeys with their guns so much.

There are certain guns we "know" to be reliable (Glock, HK, etc) so it's interesting to see just how well they fair in Todd's test, and where problems eventually surface. However, it might be more interesting to test a gun that we don't "know" to be reliable. Plus, it would give Todd more to write about - how many blog posts on the HK45 were about NOTHING because nothing happened with the gun? You can sum up a lot of the posts with: "Round count X thousand. Haven't cleaned it in Y thousand rounds. No malfunctions. New FAST record with this gun." That's great for HK marketing, but it ain't exactly the soap opera-style drama that grabs readers. :p:p:p

[ToddG]

I'm fairly confident that Springfield would balk at the idea of giving me two free guns and 20,000 or 10,000 or 2,000 rounds of ammo to run a completely open test.

[MTechnik]

If FN bothered marketing the FNX heavily, and there were a hope of anyone domestically adopting it, I'd beg for the new one to be tested.

But it isn't happening.

[ToddG]

If it helps, the plan for 2011 is pretty much sewn up. There are just some administrative hurdles we're working on.

[orionz06]

If it helps, the plan for 2011 is pretty much sewn up. There are just some administrative hurdles we're working on.

Such as locating 50,000 rounds of 5.7x28?

[YVK]

The requirement that the grip safety be constantly engaged for the slide to move creates substantial issues for certain 1-handed and "officer down" techniques.


I was told of a couple of cases when grip safety got stuck or otherwise became dysfunctional with live round inside the chamber. Allegedly, users were unable to rack those slides to clear their XDs, and pistols had to be shipped to Springfield hot, with warning notices plastered all over them.

[JV_]

and pistols had to be shipped to Springfield hot, with warning notices plastered all over them.There's no way I'd ship a loaded gun, let alone a loaded AND broken gun.

[jslaker]

The requirement that the grip safety be constantly engaged for the slide to move creates substantial issues for certain 1-handed and "officer down" techniques.

That's the biggie for me. The fact that the grip safety locks the slide shut by design is so boneheaded to me that it makes the entire design a non-starter. That's even before getting into how I've never cared for how they shoot. ;)

When you add in the fact that they cost as much/more than a Glock or M&P most of the time thanks to marketing, it's really hard to make a compelling argument for them. If they were still down in the $300 range (which is what I understand was the case when it was still being sold as the HS2000 before SA rebranded it) I could maybe see it as a solid Sigma competitor for people looking for a cheap gun.

In the $5-600 range in commonly sells in now? It's competing against guns it has no business competing against.

[Kyle Reese]

I'm sure I'll see a medley of XD's in class this weekend, with the snazzy littke holster that SA includes. :rolleyes:

As Todd and others have said, the XD does not merit consideration when selecting a social handgun. The platform itself attempts to do many things, and does none of them well.

[YVK]

There's no way I'd ship a loaded gun, let alone a loaded AND broken gun.

I don't know what I'd do if I were in that position; probably, tried to find a local gunsmith and asked for help.

Note "allegedly" in my post though, I wasn't there. Continuing in the same theme, allegedly, users, being unable to clear those guns, contacted Springfield and were told to do so.
I do not know how they dealt with common carrier regulations.

[Steven C.]

The cold hard truth is that the XD series of guns have a poor track record when you get beyond the local/casual shooter level. As LilL points out, no major LE agency has adopted them though they've been tested more than once. Some reasonably well known competitors have toyed with them and found them to have enough functional problems that they're totally missing from truly high level IDPA & USPSA matches. The requirement that the grip safety be constantly engaged for the slide to move creates substantial issues for certain 1-handed and "officer down" techniques.

Not true! Beverly Hills PD has adopted the XD45 Tactical.:cool:

-SC

[ToddG]

Not true! Beverly Hills PD has adopted the XD45 Tactical.:cool:


http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/beverly_hills_cop_movie_image_judge_reinhold.jpg

[Red Leader]

The cold hard truth is that the XD series of guns have a poor track record when you get beyond the local/casual shooter level. As LilL points out, no major LE agency has adopted them though they've been tested more than once. Some reasonably well known competitors have toyed with them and found them to have enough functional problems that they're totally missing from truly high level IDPA & USPSA matches. The requirement that the grip safety be constantly engaged for the slide to move creates substantial issues for certain 1-handed and "officer down" techniques.

I've had a few people start an AFHF class with an XD-series pistol. I've had far fewer finish with one, and I've never seen one go through a whole class without a problem of some kind.

Folks can call it hating if they wish, but facts are facts. If I had to choose between an XD with 50,000 rounds of free ammo or a P30 with 0 rounds of free ammo, I would pick the P30 every time.

Thanks for your explanation. I appreciate your thorough response. I think when you don't prefer the XD because in your experience and the classes you have run, the facts are that they haven't fared well, thats actually very legitimate. Cool. I think the 'I hope it breaks' and 'he actually has to carry it too' type of comments (without any further details) just seem goofy and out of place considering the open-mind philosophy and air of professionalism here at the forum.

It just reminds me too much of that whole 'that gun is junk' line of thinking that was written against in a pistol-training article. Now if we're talking about the Jennings (which one I saw blow up), then all bets are off;)

Quick question Todd - I'm totally uneducated on the high level USPSA and IDPA matches you reference, but do the same functional problems and grip safety issue with the XDs keep those shooters from using 1911-type pistols (although the 1911 grip safety doesn't stop the slide, correct?)? How popular are 1911s in these types of events and do they deal with any of these same issues? I only ask because I hear a lot about the 1911 'race' guns but don't know how commonplace they really are.

[ToddG]

The 1911-patern pistol remains the most common gun in USPSA and is also still fairly popular in IDPA. The grip safety of the 1911 does not lock the slide when it's at rest, however, so that comparison is not valid. Furthermore, in neither USPSA nor IDPA will you likely see a competitor performing too many 1-handed malfunction clearances or similar "officer down" type drills because of the potential for violating the sports' 180-degree muzzle rule.

[Savage Hands]

I was in Todd's class when a student had problems shooting Sho/who with his XD which prompted a discussion between Todd and another SME on this board. The 1911 grip safety is not a problem as it is wider and does not lock the slide if it is not depressed.

[beltjones]

The 1911-patern pistol remains the most common gun in USPSA and is also still fairly popular in IDPA. The grip safety of the 1911 does not lock the slide when it's at rest, however, so that comparison is not valid. Furthermore, in neither USPSA nor IDPA will you likely see a competitor performing too many 1-handed malfunction clearances or similar "officer down" type drills because of the potential for violating the sports' 180-degree muzzle rule.

Plus, the common thing in USPSA is for people to pin the grip safeties on their 2011's.

[Red Leader]

while I certainly can't say my own CZ has been a 100% reliable pistol, even if it's my own fault, I will unabashedly state that the XD's are worse. I run a weekly class, typically 250-300 rounds a night, and I've yet to see an XD complete the night. Not once, every single one that's been brought out has failed so badly the owners got rid of them shortly after.
I'm still hoping for the G19 to be the next test gun.

Interesting report. When you say 'complete the night', does that mean that the pistols have a failure or two, or something breaks, or they completely lock up? Are these mostly 9mms, .40, 45? XD sub compact or full size models or all the above? I know that a lot of Xd owners over at the xd forum have hundreds or thousands of rounds through their various xd models without issue. Are you seeing weak mag springs causing stovepipes, or roll pin failures? I'd really be interested in knowing any details.

I wish I could let you borrow my XD so you could break that bad streak:D

[ToddG]

I know that a lot of Xd owners over at the xd forum have hundreds or thousands of rounds through their various xd models without issue.

Having hundreds of rounds through your pistol is like having hundreds of miles on your car... you're a couple orders of magnitude from having valuable data on serious reliability and durability.

[Red Leader]

Todd,

I agree - and honestly it is in no way to say that the XD (or any other pistol) is great or reliable.

It was more to say that saying X brand of pistol has never gone 300 rounds without a problem paints a picture, and many owners who have many more rounds without issue paints another.

However, I cannot argue with first hand experience. If someone has seen a lot of problems with a particular pistol or several of the same, that becomes empirical evidence that cannot or should not be discounted. And I've heard of horrible experiences with XD.

And I've heard of horrible experiences with Glocks. And Sigs. And M&Ps. And a handful of H&Ks:D And everything else. And for sure Jennings:p And I don't know if we can even really be so broad as to simply go off of a manufacturer for such an important and personal choice. Or as broad as to even go off of a particular model. I'm sure a lot of folks bought a new G19 (Gen 4) after hearing so many great things about the G19 in general. And doing so, in most cases, probably eliminates most of the chances of getting stuck with a bad product (we hope), but I think we really need to make our final judgement based off of the one final product in our hands. I could have a particular XD that breaks its roll pin and gets its locking block frozen and have an M&P that runs for thousands of rounds without a problem. Or I could have an M&P that has its magazine spring crushed and trigger fail to reset and have an XD that runs for thousands of rounds.


I think the point several posters have brought up is if the XD design really passes that threshold of making the cut in narrowing it down to the best of several choices given the indirect reputation of the whole. And while my experience so far has been different than that of some posters here, I'll be the first to say that I don't have enough experience outside my own firearm to make an overarching conclusion about the whole.

I very much enjoyed the article about no pistol being perfect. I think all of us want the same thing - to search for the most reliable we can find that fits us the best. That search continues, and I am still learning!

Thanks for all the thoughts, especially the detailed experiences. They are most helpful.

And back to the main topic - how does the 'next one' get chosen? Does the manufacture just send you a gun and a lot of ammo and says have at it? Do you have to apply for it?

[jslaker]

The grip safety of the 1911 does not lock the slide when it's at rest, however, so that comparison is not valid.
To expand and perhaps make things a little clearer, mechanically the 1911 grip safety is pretty analogous to the Glock trigger-face safety. They both simply block trigger travel, just from different locations.

On the XD, the grip safety is actually blocking the sear, which is why it locks the slide shut. The slide being locked as a result has always struck me as much as a side-effect of this as it is an intentional design feature.

Either way, even though the safeties are both in the same place, they're doing very different things mechanically. That's why the "1911s have grip safeties, too" line of thinking doesn't really work (although it's been very successful from a marketing standpoint).

[LittleLebowski]

I know that a lot of Xd owners over at the xd forum have hundreds or thousands of rounds through their various xd models without issue.

Without questioning anyone's integrity, there is often a vast difference between an owner's reviews in the Internet and what instructors who see hundreds of pistols per year in arduous conditions report.

When people like Larry Vickers, Todd, and Ken Hackathorn all say the same thing, one can call that a "clue."

Plus the testing data backs them up.

[beltjones]

Without questioning anyone's integrity, there is often a vast difference between an owner's reviews in the Internet and what instructors who see hundreds of pistols per year in arduous conditions report.

When people like Larry Vickers, Todd, and Ken Hackathorn all say the same thing, one can call that a "clue."

Plus the testing data backs them up.

This is my thought exactly. Again, not questioning anyone's integrity, but people tend to think of their chosen guns like they do their kids. "Little Johnny is an angel!" (while he sets fire to the living room...)

In classes and at matches I've seen guns fail, and then I've seen the gun owner the next week talk about how his gun has never failed. "What about last week?" Someone will say. "Oh, that's because X, Y, or Z happened. That's not the gun's fault." They answer.

All one needs to do is look through the 2,000 round challenge and see that virtually no gun has ever failed it to see blatant evidence that people have massive blind spots when it comes to their gun's history of reliability.

[jslaker]

This is my thought exactly. Again, not questioning anyone's integrity, but people tend to think of their chosen guns like they do their kids. "Little Johnny is an angel!" (while he sets fire to the living room...)

In classes and at matches I've seen guns fail, and then I've seen the gun owner the next week talk about how his gun has never failed. "What about last week?" Someone will say. "Oh, that's because X, Y, or Z happened. That's not the gun's fault." They answer.

All one needs to do is look through the 2,000 round challenge and see that virtually no gun has ever failed it to see blatant evidence that people have massive blind spots when it comes to their gun's history of reliability.

It's not just guns, people do this with anything they feel invested in. My father has a car he bought new that has had all sorts of unacceptable issues from breakdowns to not keeping correct tire pressure and eating through tires to throwing a timing belt 10,000 miles before its replacement interval (requiring a complete head rebuild), yet he'll insist that it's been a great car.

[Red Leader]

Without questioning anyone's integrity, there is often a vast difference between an owner's reviews in the Internet and what instructors who see hundreds of pistols per year in arduous conditions report.

When people like Larry Vickers, Todd, and Ken Hackathorn all say the same thing, one can call that a "clue."

Plus the testing data backs them up.

What you said above is I think one of the main reasons why I wanted to join this board - lots of folks with a lot of experience and knowledge and I knew I could learn a lot. I am still unaware of a lot of the 'big names' or who's who, but educated discussion about defensive firearms has proved pretty enlightening thus far.

I think I got a little bit more stuck on some of the XD comments made in passing because I routinely carry an XD and so if there is a widespread knowledge of some type of serious problem among professionals who see 10s of thousands of rounds fired from countless pistols over hundreds of hours, it becomes a little more important to me and I appreciate the open discussion of these experiences in contrast to just the gun-bashing.

So far, its been fun:cool:

ps- so I might have missed it, but what do those three say? :)

[F-Trooper05]

ps- so I might have missed it, but what do those three say? :)

In so many words... "XD = Bubba gun."

[Red Leader]

Hmm...all the above really does make me wish that Springfield would step up to the plate and offer up an XDm or something for the test. Whether it failed miserable or performed admirably I'd still enjoy readying about it.

Does pistol-training contact manufacturers to do this type of test or do they just send a gun in? Have some manufacturers been contacted and refused or declined this type of test?

[Pennzoil]

I'd like to see the new Walther PPQ.

I'm heavily invested in Glock's and even I'm sick of reading about the Gen 4's good, bad or otherwise.

[P30shtr]

The requirement that the grip safety be constantly engaged for the slide to move creates substantial issues for certain 1-handed and "officer down" techniques.

^^XD Grip Safety^^



Two words, Duct Tape :D

[ToddG]

Except then the gun is no longer drop safe. The grip safety on an XD serves the same purpose as the trigger safety on the Glock or the hinged trigger on the M&P... it prevents the trigger from moving under inertia if the gun is dropped muzzle-up.

[jslaker]

Except then the gun is no longer drop safe. The grip safety on an XD serves the same purpose as the trigger safety on the Glock or the hinged trigger on the M&P... it prevents the trigger from moving under inertia if the gun is dropped muzzle-up.

Eh? I'm not a fan of the gun, but the XD does have a Glock-style trigger face safety; the grip safety blocks sear travel.

I still wouldn't be inclined disable the grip safety personally, though, given the XD is basically single action and doesn't have the extra striker travel that a Glock does.

EDIT:

Found a decent video showing exactly how the XD grip safety functions:

http://www.viddler.com/explore/Bareideru/videos/1/

[BWT]

Without questioning anyone's integrity, there is often a vast difference between an owner's reviews in the Internet and what instructors who see hundreds of pistols per year in arduous conditions report.


If I hear flawless one more time. "So I went to the range with my new handgun and it was flawless after the 500 round "break-in" period, I left out all the "flyers" and had to mail it back to the manufacturer twice."

One thing that strikes me immediately as odd about the XD is OEM parts are not available for the gun, extractors, firing pins, nadda. It goes back to the factory, for me, as someone with a gun at a manufacturer currently, that's just a level of head ache I don't want to deal with. Then you actually look at the gun's performance and it kind of goes down hill.

Now my Father owns an XD-45, I've shot it, and in the experience we've had it's worked fine, but it also probably has less than a thousand rounds through it. It was pretty accurate and I can't recall one malfunction, and I still wouldn't recommend it for carry based off of what I've read/seen elsewhere.

I'd like to see a Gen 4 Glock in 9mm, as I understand it, again, as I understand it (hearsay), the .40 S&W issues of the Gen 3 were resolved, the Gen 4 9mm is still finicky. (I'm betting a glock... 17 Gen 4 for next year, maybe a Glock 19 Gen 4... it'll be between those two, if I had to bet)

I don't know if it's a break-in issue, or I believe I'd heard they had modified the recoil springs since.

I can't think of any other serious pistols out there that's come out in the last year.

I think the only manufacturers as a side note, that would entertain this type of venture, are companies that want L.E./Mil contracts, Todd's well respected in more than a few places, I think it's giving their weapon credibility (ETA: to finish the thought) with L.E./Mil to give it to him and let him put it through the paces, honestly. I think his word carries merit to them and could help persuade some agencies.

I don't see Ruger, Springfield, Taurus, etc, ever contacting him.

But this is also my best guess, and my guesses are unqualified to the max.

[P30shtr]

^^XD Grip Safety^^

Two words, Duct Tape :D


This was meant as a joke, nothing more. Not to be taken seriously by any means.

[Red Leader]

The XD also has a striker safety (I think most/all striker-fired weapons do, right?) which would lead me to believe that minus the grip safety, it has the same level of safety as the glock (trigger safety, striker safety).

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

So if Springfield, Ruger, etc wouldn't touch this kind of test, who all does that leave?

[David]

So if Springfield, Ruger, etc wouldn't touch this kind of test, who all does that leave?

It would be cruel to make Todd run a GP100 endurance test, his grandchildren would have to pick it up where he left off. :cool:

[Red Leader]

Actually I was thinking of a Vaquero;)

[David]

Actually I was thinking of a Vaquero;)

No Alaskan? :)

[Steven C.]

My thoughts? Probably a constant action type trigger, also probably striker fired.

I am betting an HK P30 equivalent that is striker fired. I've seen reference to it being titled the P40. It will be forged from pure unobtainium.

Alternatively, maybe the new FNX, or FNS - striker fired.

Link to FN FNS-http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=631

[jslaker]

Alternatively, maybe the new FNX, or FNS - striker fired.

Link to FN FNS-http://www.fnherstal.com/index.php?id=631

Huh. I had somehow managed to avoid hearing about this until now. I don't know why, but I just could never get myself interested in the FNP/FNX line. Just didn't see any real advantage over more common hammer-fired systems like HK and Sig, and its relative obscurity makes finding accessories like holsters a nightmare from the accounts I've heard.

I'd definitely be interested in hearing how the FNS performs, though. If they price it sanely, it could be a nice new competitor for the market.

[MTechnik]

Huh. I had somehow managed to avoid hearing about this until now. I don't know why, but I just could never get myself interested in the FNP/FNX line. Just didn't see any real advantage over more common hammer-fired systems like HK and Sig, and its relative obscurity makes finding accessories like holsters a nightmare from the accounts I've heard.

The FNP: A great SA trigger, changeable backstrap, tank-like reliability (must say I haven't run mine HARD, but I don't clean it), and a nice $350 price two years ago. But yes, very limited accessories due to low adoption.

Here is a great write-up on it (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/taking_a_look_at_the_fnp9_pistol.htm) from Stephen A Camp.

Still waiting on a Raven holster that's on order, and Atomic Dog doesn't make holsters for it. Night sights are limited too - definitely no HD Hackathorns.

Those things are making me consider a Glock 19, M&P9/9c or P30.

[Red Leader]

The FNP: A great SA trigger, changeable backstrap, tank-like reliability (must say I haven't run mine HARD, but I don't clean it), and a nice $350 price two years ago. But yes, very limited accessories due to low adoption.

Here is a great write-up on it (http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/taking_a_look_at_the_fnp9_pistol.htm) from Stephen A Camp.

Still waiting on a Raven holster that's on order, and Atomic Dog doesn't make holsters for it. Night sights are limited too - definitely no HD Hackathorns.

Those things are making me consider a Glock 19, M&P9/9c or P30.


I've only shot an FNP-40 before and while it functioned fine, it was very uncomfortable for me. It could be a great choice if it fits the users hands.

[P30shtr]

I've only shot an FNP-40 before and while it functioned fine, it was very uncomfortable for me. It could be a great choice if it fits the users hands.

Maybe it was because .40s&w sucks;);) Never mind the FNP. It would probably suck out of a Rem 700.

Sorry wrong thread, wrong time:o

[Red Leader]

Maybe it was because .40s&w sucks;);) Never mind the FNP. It would probably suck out of a Rem 700.

Sorry wrong thread, wrong time:o

Well, one part was the cartridge, yes. It was pretty snappy!

But also the pistol just didn't feel right in my hand. Just holding it was uncomfortable. But more power to the folks it fits!

[P30shtr]

Well, one part was the cartridge, yes. It was pretty snappy!

But also the pistol just didn't feel right in my hand. Just holding it was uncomfortable. But more power to the folks it fits!

Agreed

[David]

a G4-G19 without Glock involvement / endorsement.

I was so close, and if it weren't for his 19 having issues would it have been even better. I should win prizes and paid vacations and other valuable crap and parting gifts. :cool:

[MTechnik]

I was told of a couple of cases when grip safety got stuck or otherwise became dysfunctional with live round inside the chamber. Allegedly, users were unable to rack those slides to clear their XDs, and pistols had to be shipped to Springfield hot, with warning notices plastered all over them.

Is there a place with a first-hand account of this that I can link someone when they sing XD's praises? Thanks!

[YVK]

No, I don't have actual direct link. I do think though that if one is really interested, then confirmatory info could be solicited from SA customer support folks.

[YVK]

Is there a place with a first-hand account of this that I can link someone when they sing XD's praises? Thanks!

There is now one report online:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=95638#Post95638