PDA

View Full Version : Are people better?



Sal Picante
04-25-2016, 10:23 AM
I def see people in USPSA getting better much quicker these days than in the past. There is an intense focus on training & practice and a cadre of professionals dedicated to master self-improvement.

Good read on the topic... (http://bit.ly/21cnaRZ)

Money quote: "What the second half of the 20th century did see was a steady increase in the amount of time that people in different areas devoted to training, combined with a growing sophistication of training techniques. This was true in a huge number of fields, particularly highly competitive fields such as musical performance and dance, individual and team sports, and chess and other competitive games. This increase in the amount and sophistication of practice resulted in a steady improvement in the abilities of the performers in these various fields—an improvement that was not always obvious from year to year but that is dramatic when viewed over the course of several decades."

okie john
04-25-2016, 10:40 AM
I think that people used to be better at more things across the board. But we now live in an area of specialization. Aided and abetted by the interwebs, we're more able to go deep in one area and more willing to ignore the rest.


Okie John

Peally
04-25-2016, 11:05 AM
Great article, and the points are often reflected in how people practice shooting nowadays. Just shooting will get you nowhere without structured and repeatable practice.

John Hearne
04-25-2016, 12:28 PM
Thanks for posting that. That is the best summary of effective practice that I've read. I knew a lot of the material but I've never seen that much specificity about the role of goal setting.

Trooper224
04-25-2016, 12:59 PM
As with many things, shooting is now approached more as a science than in decades past. I think this is a key factor in the increased progression we see. Communication is also a factor that can't be underestimated. The internet, with all it's limitations, has made the sharing of information much more rapid than ever before. This has allowed participants in any activity to eliminate much of the guess work involved. Regarding sports, the contribution of performance enhancing drugs also plays a factor.

BehindBlueI's
04-25-2016, 01:08 PM
a growing sophistication of training techniques.

That right there says it to me. We're better at getting better. Think of how much something like video analysis has helped in multiple sports. Not my wheelhouse, but I know seeing myself shoot in slow motion is pretty damned powerful in breaking my mind away from "what I think I'm doing" to "what I'm actually doing" and then getting better at the second. I'd reckon the same is true of swinging a bat or tennis racket or what-have-you.

Sal Picante
04-25-2016, 03:27 PM
That right there says it to me. We're better at getting better. Think of how much something like video analysis has helped in multiple sports. Not my wheelhouse, but I know seeing myself shoot in slow motion is pretty damned powerful in breaking my mind away from "what I think I'm doing" to "what I'm actually doing" and then getting better at the second. I'd reckon the same is true of swinging a bat or tennis racket or what-have-you.

Dude ... I've been videoing myself at practice a lot (I forget sometimes... Sometimes, it is just too much material too) and it is fascinating stuff, really...

Very humbling.

Kevin B.
04-25-2016, 05:49 PM
Excellent article. Thanks for sharing.

Duces Tecum
04-25-2016, 08:21 PM
"Purposeful practice"? Isn't that a Gabe White thing?

MVS
04-25-2016, 09:14 PM
Very interesting article. I recognized a number of things in there that I have heard from John Hearne. In regards to people getting better at hobbies, we have a lot more time for them when we don't have to spend all of our waking hours just trying to survive.

45dotACP
04-25-2016, 10:41 PM
I like that article!

IronArcher
04-26-2016, 02:03 PM
Echoing some of the others. There is just a LOT more information out now on training and technique. All the books that may have been written in the past are still available, but you get more new books, DVDs, Youtube vids etc.
The average joe can come here on the web and ask a GM for advice....I have never met a GM, and everyone that I have shot a match with save for 1, I met AT a match. Being able to get advice from the truly knowledgeable is a HUGE benefit. Being able to post a video and get feedback from a GM is a big benefit.
As a brand new shooter this year, I was able to get information from guys like Ben Stoeger. I was able to get VERY good advice, and was able to focus on the stuff that really mattered and ignore the stuff a noob doesn't need to worry about from GMs(Thanx specifically to Waktasz). In a few months, I'll be taking a class with Ben Stoeger... without the web, I wouldn't know who Stoeger was!
Hell, I learn a lot just listening to the Practical pistol show podcast! All the different GMs and their opinions...great stuff.
Honestly, stuff like that just makes me WANT to train more, and get better. If it was just a book on a table, it would probably lose my interest.

So yeah, I think collectively, we are getting better, and getting better faster...and it's MAINLY because of GMs like Les, Waktasz, Stoeger, Hopkins, Herron, etc etc.

Thank you guys!

BaiHu
04-26-2016, 05:20 PM
Very apropos of this discussion. I read this article many years ago and refer to it often when teaching older/less physical or handicapped (visual/physical impairment) students martial arts.

Thanks for this article as it dovetails nicely to my 'collection of awesome reads'.

http://www.wired.com/2007/05/ff-mindgames/

Randy Harris
04-28-2016, 09:20 AM
Another factor that combines with better training methodology to make shooters better and faster than they have ever been is the now ubiquitous affordable electronic timer and the reloading press to turn out large quantities of more affordable ammo at home.

Sal Picante
04-28-2016, 01:34 PM
Another factor that combines with better training methodology to make shooters better and faster than they have ever been is the now ubiquitous affordable electronic timer and the reloading press to turn out large quantities of more affordable ammo at home.

^ This is a huge contributor, no doubt!! I mean, I've got an automated reloading setup and that alone has allowed me to burn more lead...

That said, volume alone isn't going to make you better - and that is where the timer comes into play: it allows you to measure to the Nth-degree what you're messing up and what you're doing right...

Randy Harris
04-28-2016, 04:02 PM
Agreed. My point on ammo is that a guy in 1920 who was a serious gun carrier might only shoot 10 boxes of ammo (500 rounds ) a year due to the expense and they might have been considered an "expert pistol shooter". There are serious shooters now who might shoot that every week. I feel like I can probably guess who the better shooter is between the two..... Now, practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent. But assuming one learns the same skills, the one who has the ability to practice more has the advantage.

MDS
04-30-2016, 07:47 AM
But assuming one learns the same skills, the one who has the ability to practice more has the advantage.

This. In my own experience, which is just anecdotal and comes from being addicted to getting "competent" at lots of things rather than getting "excellent" at just a few things, as well as applying that philosophy to my own teams, is that there are a few variables, each with different level of importance. Quality of practice and mindfulness during practice are IME more important than volume of practice. Quality of practice has to do with structured exercises focused on specific aspects of your performance, as described in the article. Great thread, thanks for pointing out that article!

smithjd
05-07-2016, 12:09 PM
"Valley Uprising" is a documentary of rock climbing in Yosemite that shows a similar progression in a different endeavor. I thought it was respectfully done and very entertaining.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONbyYMcp-Ss

BN
05-07-2016, 06:05 PM
Nobody has mentioned Mike Dillon yet. ;)

Sal Picante
05-08-2016, 12:21 PM
"Valley Uprising" is a documentary of rock climbing in Yosemite that shows a similar progression in a different endeavor. I thought it was respectfully done and very entertaining.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONbyYMcp-Ss

This is some pretty amazing stuff - I know 0.0% about anything climbing related. (Do pull-ups count?)

But I've been watching stuff on it for a bit this AM.

Shit like this underscores the point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpsZtxObsz8

HCM
05-08-2016, 01:16 PM
Agreed. My point on ammo is that a guy in 1920 who was a serious gun carrier might only shoot 10 boxes of ammo (500 rounds ) a year due to the expense and they might have been considered an "expert pistol shooter". There are serious shooters now who might shoot that every week. I feel like I can probably guess who the better shooter is between the two..... Now, practice does not make perfect, it makes permanent. But assuming one learns the same skills, the one who has the ability to practice more has the advantage.

Actually reloading was common back as far as the introduction of metallic cartridges. Progressive reloading presses were likely prohibitively expensive but there was no TV or internet to suck up time either.

1936 Sheriffs Range reloading video: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19328-Old-school-Sheriffs-Range-Reloading-Video-(1936)&highlight=school+reloading+video

Timers, performance tracking and training methodology are likely your biggest factors.

Skeeter
05-08-2016, 03:07 PM
I def see people in USPSA getting better much quicker these days than in the past. There is an intense focus on training & practice and a cadre of professionals dedicated to master self-improvement.

Good read on the topic... (http://bit.ly/21cnaRZ)


Good article with a lot of practical implications. One thing not touched on in the article is that it seems like more young kids are getting dedicated into sports, arts, and competitive anything (for example, Tiger Woods (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxPmzIKBris)).

45dotACP
05-08-2016, 04:45 PM
Shot a match today...people are definitely better...I am definitely worse :D

Skeeter
05-08-2016, 07:57 PM
Shot a match today...people are definitely better...I am definitely worse :D

Matches are like Lake Wobegon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon), where all the shooters are above average... :D

45dotACP
05-08-2016, 08:06 PM
Heh, seriously...Some very solid shooters in the Northern IL area...and I've not got the goods to hang...there are a few M class shooters who were shooting single stack division and they squadded with me....and with me tagging a few too many a no-shoot on the classifier...well yeah. I got skooled real hard.

Sal Picante
05-09-2016, 10:27 AM
Heh, seriously...Some very solid shooters in the Northern IL area...and I've not got the goods to hang...there are a few M class shooters who were shooting single stack division and they squadded with me....and with me tagging a few too many a no-shoot on the classifier...well yeah. I got skooled real hard.

Where'd you shoot? NISA or Oak Park?

Squad with Cody and/or Mark Sorensen (aka the Viking?)

Sal Picante
05-09-2016, 10:28 AM
Actually reloading was common back as far as the introduction of metallic cartridges. Progressive reloading presses were likely prohibitively expensive but there was no TV or internet to suck up time either.

1936 Sheriffs Range reloading video: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19328-Old-school-Sheriffs-Range-Reloading-Video-(1936)&highlight=school+reloading+video

Timers, performance tracking and training methodology are likely your biggest factors.

I love that video - the scoring system they use is the same scoring system that USPSA uses: Points/Time.
(I think that was intentionally brought over form the training--> Letherslaps --> USPSA)

45dotACP
05-09-2016, 04:57 PM
Where'd you shoot? NISA or Oak Park?

Squad with Cody and/or Mark Sorensen (aka the Viking?)
Oak Park, but I didn't run into Cody and I think Sorensen was elsewhere. I was squadded with John Smith. The match was a fairly straightforward one, nothing too crazy, but I bombed the classifier pretty bad lol

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Sal Picante
05-09-2016, 11:38 PM
Oak Park, but I didn't run into Cody and I think Sorensen was elsewhere. I was squadded with John Smith. The match was a fairly straightforward one, nothing too crazy, but I bombed the classifier pretty bad lol

Sent from my VS876 using Tapatalk

Smith is a helluva shooter - he also has a hot rodded firebird! Total "engineer mindset guy" with a super dry sense of humor...

If I roll to OPSC, I'll hit you up, bro!

Randy Harris
05-12-2016, 05:13 PM
Actually reloading was common back as far as the introduction of metallic cartridges. Progressive reloading presses were likely prohibitively expensive but there was no TV or internet to suck up time either.

1936 Sheriffs Range reloading video: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19328-Old-school-Sheriffs-Range-Reloading-Video-(1936)&highlight=school+reloading+video

Timers, performance tracking and training methodology are likely your biggest factors.

Agree, but don't discount the big step up in the 80s that coincided with progressive press availability. With regards to reloading at home always being common, "Common" is not the word I'd use....at least it was not anywhere near as common then as it is now. While there were reloading tools available they were single stage presses and few regular people actually reloaded. Star made a progressive press but they were marketed to police departments not really to individuals and they were expensive. Reloading as a hobby for the common man didn't really take off until after WWII. The progressive press for the masses didn't really come along until the late 70s. Someone mentioned Dillon....there you go. With the action sports like IPSC coming on in the 70s the ability to reload hundreds of rounds an hour was a boon to competitors who were now practicing more in order to cut split times and shoot at the ragged edge of human ability....not just bullseye shooting with time limits that could be measured with a sun dial .

Look at the ammo prices in the 1980s and you see why reloading was a big deal. Actually if you go back and look at old gun magazine articles the prices we are paying now in 2016 (that people complain about because it is up from the artificially low prices driven by a glut of surplus ammo of the early 2000s) is about the same or a little less than it was 30 years ago...and people made less $$$ back then. So the competitors who had the ability to reload had a huge advantage in availability of practice ammo to the guy paying $18 a box for .45 auto at the store. And there was no internet to help search for lowest pricing....you paid what the local store priced it at. But the progressive press changed that. Add not only more ammo available to practice with, but also the ability to actually time it yourself (timer) and measure empirical data (and then later the ability to video it yourself and make corrections) it is no wonder that the shooting world took a great leap forward starting about 35 years ago.....

HCM
05-12-2016, 05:16 PM
Agree, but don't discount the big step up in the 80s that coincided with progressive press availability. With regards to reloading at home always being common, "Common" is not the word I'd use....at least it was not anywhere near as common then as it is now. While there were reloading tools available they were single stage presses and few regular people actually reloaded. Star made a progressive press but they were marketed to police departments not really to individuals and they were expensive. Reloading as a hobby for the common man didn't really take off until after WWII. The progressive press for the masses didn't really come along until the late 70s. Someone mentioned Dillon....there you go. With the action sports like IPSC coming on in the 70s the ability to reload hundreds of rounds an hour was a boon to competitors who were now practicing more in order to cut split times and shoot at the ragged edge of human ability....not just bullseye shooting with time limits that could be measured with a sun dial .

Look at the ammo prices in the 1980s and you see why reloading was a big deal. Actually if you go back and look at old gun magazine articles the prices we are paying now in 2016 (that people complain about because it is up from the artificially low prices driven by a glut of surplus ammo of the early 2000s) is about the same or a little less than it was 30 years ago...and people made less $$$ back then. So the competitors who had the ability to reload had a huge advantage in availability of practice ammo to the guy paying $18 a box for .45 auto at the store. And there was no internet to help search for lowest pricing....you paid what the local store priced it at. But the progressive press changed that. Add not only more ammo available to practice with, but also the ability to actually time it yourself (timer) and measure empirical data (and then later the ability to video it yourself and make corrections) it is no wonder that the shooting world took a great leap forward starting about 35 years ago.....

You also could not mail order ammo from 1968 through 1986 per federal law.

BN
05-12-2016, 06:47 PM
but also the ability to actually time it yourself (timer) and measure empirical data

When I started shooting IPSC we were still using stopwatches with a stop plate to be shot last on assault courses. Yep, I said assault courses. We since have become politically correct. ;)