Brazilian jiu jitsu or Krav Maga

[Dismas316]

Hi all, wanted to get some input, thinking about taking bjj or km for self defense and was curious as to what you all think would be best. I have talked to some mma gyms and other training facilities and was surprised to hear many of them think krav maga is not legit at all and some think its a joke. (I have no idea and hadn't heard that before) part of me thinks it's them ragging on competition but again, don't know. I am a bit older but in good shape and like the lifestyle of being in shape and learning good self defense fighting techniques.

There are a bjj and a km facility that are fairly close to me so would be convenient for me to train. I know BJJ is very legit and many mma fighters have backgrounds in that so it seems like it would be pretty good sd training. But I hear a good bit about km but mainly on the internet. (it must be true).:) It seems like it's pretty specific to many weapons self defense techniques, and would be fun to learn, just don't know a lot about it.

Anyway anyone have words of wisdom with regard to these forms of self defense?

[Chance]

You're opening a can of worms. I don't think Krav is a joke, as some of their techniques do actually work. But I think you are far and away better off with a supportive MMA gym.

And it's not true that "many MMA fighters have backgrounds" in BJJ. All of them do. You can't get by without it in the pro fight world.

I would recommend you take some free classes at an MMA gym, for starters. See what the attitude there is, and how they treat you (very important; some places are basically haze fests). Sample elsewhere if it's not for you. No one style will solve every problem, so variety is definitely a good thing.

[scw2]

When I asked a similar question, the answer I got was basically that it's relatively speaking easier to find a vetted and reputable BJJ gym, and a bit harder when it comes to krav or MMA. I'm new to BJJ and not an expert on any martial arts or combat sports, so take my advice with a grain of salt...

[SpyderMan2k4]

Bjj hands down. If the bjj gym has an MMA curriculum, that's definitely a bonus.

Bjj will actually allow you to pressure test the techniques against resisting opponents. It'll also teach you to keep calm when in horrible positions, and find another level you didn't think you had. Not many martial arts offers that.

[Mitch]

When I asked a similar question, the answer I got was basically that it's relatively speaking easier to find a vetted and reputable BJJ gym, and a bit harder when it comes to krav or MMA. I'm new to BJJ and not an expert on any martial arts or combat sports, so take my advice with a grain of salt...

I'd agree with this. I wouldn't say krav maga is a bunch of BS, but it does seem to have more kooks than bjj.

Most BJJ gyms have at least some people that compete and that tends to keep them a little more grounded in reality. If both gyms are close I'd visit each one and then go with the one that your gut tells you.

[Dagga Boy]

Purely instructor dependent.

[orionz06]

With BJJ there is no bullshit and no guesswork as to what works or doesn't. Live training against a resisting opponent is a crucial part of the art, there's no faking it. You're not plucking eyes out, kicking groins, and saying "now if you were a real bad guy..."

[BJJ]

BJJ. It's incredibly useful. Just make sure that you are training takedowns and takedown defense. There are guys who are death stalkers once it's on the ground but relatively helpless at getting it there.

I feel like a solid blue belt is about like Expert class in IDPA. In the realm of what's possible, you're not that great but compared to the average person you're a frickin badass.

[Dagga Boy]

With BJJ there is no bullshit and no guesswork as to what works or doesn't. Live training against a resisting opponent is a crucial part of the art, there's no faking it. You're not plucking eyes out, kicking groins, and saying "now if you were a real bad guy..."

With the right Krav guy there isn't a lot of b.s. I will note during my BJJ time (which I loved and hopefully will get back to), I wasn't able to bury my thumb in my opponents eye (one of my favorite street things), kick in the groin (which works insanely well with steel toe boots), so there are limitations there as well. I found BJJ is exceptional for really understanding how to apply 100% force. I combo' it with Krav to get the "dirty stuff" worked in as well.

[Dismas316]

With the right Krav guy there isn't a lot of b.s. I will note during my BJJ time (which I loved and hopefully will get back to), I wasn't able to bury my thumb in my opponents eye (one of my favorite street things), kick in the groin (which works insanely well with steel toe boots), so there are limitations there as well. I found BJJ is exceptional for really understanding how to apply 100% force. I combo' it with Krav to get the "dirty stuff" worked in as well.

That was kinda my initial thought at looking at the big picture. Getting some of the good fundamentals of bjj and taking some classes of the krav to get a different perspective. Like so many have mentioned already, it does seem much easier to vet the bjj as the one in my area has a pretty long list of credentials. I would imagine as in most things if you find the right instructor the KM would be pretty interesting as well.

[BJJ]

In my opinion, BJJ will get you the technique, athleticism, timing, and ability to have a dominant position that will allow to stick your thumb in a guy's eye all day if that floats your boat. Going to Krav Maga class to get told to stick your thumb in a guy's eye won't do the same. I apologize if I misunderstand and I am not trying o be inflammatory. People who train athletic fighting skills can fight as dirty as anybody. All you have to do is throw in all the stuff that is prohibited for competition.

Nyeti, surely you weren't able to stick your finger in people's eyes in a Krav Maga class? Seems like you would go through training. partners very quickly.

Holy f*ck, I hate auto correct.

[Mitch]

In my opinion, BJJ will get you the technique, athleticism, timing, and ability to have a dominant position that will allow to stick your thumb in a guy's eye all day if that floats your boat. Going to Krav Maga class to get told to stick your thumb in a guy's eye won't do the same. I apologize if I misunderstand and I am not trying o be inflammatory. People who train athletic fighting skills can fight as dirty as anybody. All you have to do is throw in all the stuff that is prohibited for competition.

Nyeti, surely you weren't able to stick your finger in people's eyes in a Krav Maga class? Seems like you would go through training. partners very quickly.

Holy f*ck, I hate auto correct.

I agree completely, but there is a different mindset between most BJJ schools and Krav Maga.

I've made the exact same argument, but the one time I had to use BJJ to defend myself I stuck to all those sport BJJ moves and did not do any dirty stuff or even punch the guy who attacked me. I came out on top pretty easily, but all that stuff you hear about reverting back to your training is 100% true in my limited experience.

[BES]

This is something I'm passionate about. I've trained in both in addition to a number of other martial arts so I'll try to give you some good insight. I put a lot of time into Krav Maga before I left it and started training Gracie Barra Jiu Jitsu. I'm going to try and make this as short as possible. Do you want to be able to perform in a fight or altercation or look like you can? That's what it comes down to. You will never get on a mat or in a ring with someone with Krav Maga and go face to face. This is one of the biggest problems with martial arts, too much shyness towards going hands on with someone and actually FIGHTING with an over emphasis on techniques and drills. BJJ is one of the few arts where you're actually going to roll and fight someone, daily. I can't express to you the mental hardness that builds in someone. You're ability to remain calm and manage your adrenaline in a fight and THINK is critical.. BJJ will teach you this on a daily basis as you learn skills and actually roll with someone. Much like shooting the mindset thing is something that a lot of people over look and IMO, from the wisdom of some really great instructors, it is truly one of the most important things. Yes the techniques are important and you will learn many but the ability to think and execute while getting tossed around or choked can't be taught by any drill or form. That being said, BJJ is not the end all be all. If you do it, try to match it with some good standup training and you will become very well rounded. Most good BJJ gyms offer a night of standup/striking training.

[Dagga Boy]

In my opinion, BJJ will get you the technique, athleticism, timing, and ability to have a dominant position that will allow to stick your thumb in a guy's eye all day if that floats your boat. Going to Krav Maga class to get told to stick your thumb in a guy's eye won't do the same. I apologize if I misunderstand and I am not trying o be inflammatory. People who train athletic fighting skills can fight as dirty as anybody. All you have to do is throw in all the stuff that is prohibited for competition.

Nyeti, surely you weren't able to stick your finger in people's eyes in a Krav Maga class? Seems like you would go through training. partners very quickly.

Holy f*ck, I hate auto correct.

Remember my first post.....depends on the instructor. How much BJJ work have you done on asphalt? Best Krav guy I know works a lot on real surfaces and it isn't hitting bags. On the other hand....there is a place for hitting bags. Same thing in BJJ. I worked with the Brazilian instructor who was on the original staff that did the LAPD program. He had a great understanding of LE applications, heavy sport guy, but also was big on rolling ALOT. I got what I was looking for. At the same time a MMA gym right down the street was full of chemically enhanced unemployed early twenties guys who relished injuring cops. Not what I was looking for. Later in life when I was suffering through a ton of injuries and rehab, the Krav gym where you just hit the bag was the right program. Right now there is as much crap in the BJJ world as any other martial arts program. I have heard enough horror stories from various customers, gyms, etc of cycling through instructors because BJJ is currently popular. It is the same as what we have seen with Karste, Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do, Akido, and certainly with Krav Maga and traditional boxing. Any of these come back to instructor quality more than anything else.

As far as thumbing eyes....the key was at least simulating it as part of a distraction to set or break a hold. What I found was doing some out of the box training, combined with street experience really enhanced what I took away from sport BJJ. Truthfully, what I used to recommend to most folks was BJJ combined with either Muy Thai or Pencak Silat. None of these programs have all the answers. Like many things, solving the problem may take a combination of multiple disciplines to get the solution you want. I have simply taken a lot of things from a lot of places and worked them into a jumble that has worked for me. Most will need to be individualized to each person. Heck, I have changed a lot over the years just due to injury and mass changes in size from concentration camp thin to my current large slow oversize mammal, and what works has changed as well.....with the exception of cutting off blood to the brain, and people don't like things in their eyes.

[Chance]

I came out on top pretty easily, but all that stuff you hear about reverting back to your training is 100% true in my limited experience.

If you won easily, gouging his eyes may not have been an appropriate escalation.

[nycnoob]

Truthfully, what I used to recommend to most folks was BJJ combined with either Muy Thai or Pencak Silat.

Can you say a word our two about what you liked in Silat? Those movements always struck me as very strange.

[EVP]

I've made the exact same argument, but the one time I had to use BJJ to defend myself I stuck to all those sport BJJ moves and did not do any dirty stuff or even punch the guy who attacked me. I came out on top pretty easily, but all that stuff you hear about reverting back to your training is 100% true in my limited experience.


I would say then your encounter was successful and in line for what Bjj is at it roots and core.

Without going into the whole sport vs defensive BJJ(which is a silly idea and notion all together) Good jiu-jitsu is good jiu-jitsu.

I would find a good legit BJJ school with a instructor who's has a solid lineage and a school that supports metro or local law enforcement training. If you have a school in your area that teaches law enforcement orginizations and has a good amount of LEO that train there you can bet your training will be reality based and focused on effective techniques that are honed.

[Mike C]

I'm no expert but I'm going to chime in. BJJ hands down, and not the sport kind. No offense if anyone trains it, there is value in it but the progression in skill/concept development is slower, not always the case but it has been my experience at all the academies and gyms I've seen to include the Baja guys coming in the front door for a, "workout." My recommendation is to find a real Gracie academy that teaches the curriculum base on the 40 lessons Helio Gracie taught. As others have stated it builds the ability to stay calm in suck positions, react appropriately to various types of stimuli and opponents of different sizes, strength, and athleticism. You will also quickly learn the ability to transition from shitty position to dominant position though the use of concepts that are adjustable to your strength and size by teaching timing and the use of leverage and skeletal structure.

Other large benefits I've experienced are that you can actually train against a fully resistant opponent with punches while staying relatively safe without risk of major injury, (instructor and student dependent) which allows you to keep training mitigating down time. There is a myriad of standup work and ground work, all of it is useful and a crap ton of it works into weapons access and defense in preventing others weapon access. I love Brazilian Jui Jitsu it is an awesome system find the right place and instructor and you will quickly reap its benefits. Last bit of advice if you do decide to join a BJJ gym/academy many instructors don't do enough standup work, make sure the place you checkout does standup with gloves at least once a week, more is better and bangs a few times a month once rolling is open to you.

[voodoo_man]

As long as you understand that neither one are the answer to the big question and every aspect of training is just one piece of the pie, BJJ taught from a vetted teacher can produce very competent individual. It is good at getting you to a "fighting" physical condition and understanding what is required to win a confrontation. There are plenty of pitfalls and issues with any such "art" and that revolves around lack of rep completion, competition based win criteria and lack of weapon handling.

If you plan on supplementing your overall training with BJJ primarily I would caution you as real world confrontations do not work like that.

[Dagga Boy]

As long as you understand that neither one are the answer to the big question and every aspect of training is just one piece of the pie, BJJ taught from a vetted teacher can produce very competent individual. It is good at getting you to a "fighting" physical condition and understanding what is required to win a confrontation. There are plenty of pitfalls and issues with any such "art" and that revolves around lack of rep completion, competition based win criteria and lack of weapon handling.

If you plan on supplementing your overall training with BJJ primarily I would caution you as real world confrontations do not work like that.

What he said.

[jc000]

BJJ x infinity over KM. Sorry.

[SweetScienceOfShooting]

There is definitely a lot of good information in the thread, the only thing I would add from my perspective is to not look at it as either BJJ or Krav. I would strongly suggest to cross train in both if at all possible since quality RBSD training can greatly add to the capabilities that are gained in combat sport training and vice versa. Also, like Nyeti said, quality is very dependant upon the instructor.

In my area, there are a few gyms that offer an RBSD class in addition to the combat sport components of mma. If that is true in your town, then I think that would be the optimal choice. If not, then I would suggest to pick one, and then supplement your training with some time in the other when you can. If going to two different gyms is not workable, you could also go to an occasional seminar like ECQC or Cecil Burch’s IAC. It also could be done by getting some videos and working out with some friends/training partners on your own. For fundamental BJJ with an eye towards self-defense, the Gracie Combatives dvd’s are very good.

I attended a school that was affiliated with KM Worldwide for about a year. They had some fundamental BJJ techniques that were part of the ground self defense curriculum. It isn’t greatly emphasized, but KM will at least get you some exposure to it.

[Dagga Boy]

Can you say a word our two about what you liked in Silat? Those movements always struck me as very strange.

I am not built for most of it...but...the Indonesian stuff is really based on killing folks. I look at things as a balance. Everything you will not see in the UFC is gtg with these guys. A lot of attacks to the eyes, throat, groin, elbows to the back of the head repeatedly, knees to the face and head. If you find video of the backwoods fights in their equivalent of MMA or boxing, it is like the rule book is opposite. It's like extra points for an eye gouge, seven elbows to the back of the head, and four kicks and knees to the groin.

Biggest take from Krav...seemed like everything started with a big kick to the nuts. Want to know what I found hugely effective on the street....starting with a huge boot to the nuts.

I have taken a ton of stuff from lots of different folks. I think it helped not being in a "program". Of everything I have done, I spent more dedicated time in BJJ rolling three days a week for a year. I started and ended as a white belt...because I wasn't there for that. I mainly rolled purple belts and above, and spent a lot of time actually rolling with the instructor because he liked working against a guy who had fifty pounds on him and was very aggressive and not using textbook techniques. I took the nickname "pit bull" as both a ding and compliment. So, I highly recommend BJJ, you just need to find some some things or means to train in using no rules. Your shopping mall Krav place is likely not it, but there are Krav guys who can teach you some exceptional street stuff.

[voodoo_man]

Can you say a word our two about what you liked in Silat? Those movements always struck me as very strange.

Silat, much like other versions of stick/blade/weapon fighting (Kali, etc) are designed to kill people with weapons, but it can translate over to weapon-less armed confrontation (the techniques can be used with weapons or without). It is a good skill set to have and definitely something I would recommend everyone be competent in, especially if you carry a blade for any purpose.

[rojocorsa]

I did KM at a good place for about a year until I had to move away.

Honestly had no idea that some of it was considered less than ideal.

Which parts of KM would these be?

[David S.]

I messed around with a Krav Maga based program several years ago. I think there is a ton of potential value in Krav Maga training. I just don't think it belonged anywhere near the beginning of my journey. I think a background in wrestling, ju jitsu, boxing, and some the other fundamental skills would have made my Krav Maga training much more powerful.

If you haven't done so already, I would suggest getting in to a ECQC type class. I took the class a couple years ago and failed spectacularly, as most people do. On the other hand, I learned what skills were good and what needs improvement. My gun handling and marksmanship were adequate and despite being out of shape, I didn't gas out or feel that strength was particularly an issue. My weakness was a complete lack of experience being in full speed contact with an actively resisting opponent. I've never been in a fight.

On the one hand, my Krav training just didn't prepare me for that. On the other hand, if I had had such experience, I think Krav might add some useful "tools to the toolbox."

I think the Krav vs Jui Jitsu question is ultimately subjective and totally dependent on your individual needs. At this point in my development, I need to be rolling around on a mat with another dude and I need to get punched in the face. Jui jitsu and boxing are probably a better fit for me because they emphasize those things.

YMMV, of course

[/Internet Commando]

Cheers,
David S

[Chance]

Which parts of KM would these be?

The people with more extensive experience would have to correct me, but basically, my observations are that Krav is geared around pre-packaged solutions to curb an initial attack. It seems to do a really good job of generalizing techniques, so that you have one basic technique for multiple scenarios, instead of a custom tailored technique for every conceivable scenario. It's not about beating someone up and winning a fight, necessarily, which I think is why a lot of MMA guys poo-poo it. Again, that's just my observations.


If you find video of the backwoods fights in their equivalent of MMA or boxing, it is like the rule book is opposite. It's like extra points for an eye gouge, seven elbows to the back of the head, and four kicks and knees to the groin.

Are these fights on the Internet? Felony Fights has always been one of my favorite video series for a look into prison rules, although they've gotten so over-produced these days I can barely put up with it.

[Dagga Boy]

Silat, much like other versions of stick/blade/weapon fighting (Kali, etc) are designed to kill people with weapons, but it can translate over to weapon-less armed confrontation (the techniques can be used with weapons or without). It is a good skill set to have and definitely something I would recommend everyone be competent in, especially if you carry a blade for any purpose.

Totally agree and was how I was exposed to it through Steve Tarani. Also, much of the Indonesian stuff is based around small blades that is very in line with what most of us carry daily.


The people with more extensive experience would have to correct me, but basically, my observations are that Krav is geared around pre-packaged solutions to curb an initial attack. It seems to do a really good job of generalizing techniques, so that you have one basic technique for multiple scenarios, instead of a custom tailored technique for every conceivable scenario. It's not about beating someone up and winning a fight, necessarily, which I think is why a lot of MMA guys poo-poo it. Again, that's just my observations.



Are these fights on the Internet? Felony Fights has always been one of my favorite video series for a look into prison rules, although they've gotten so over-produced these days I can barely put up with it.

Excellent post. I found Krav was good for what most earth people need. Some pre loaded responses to attack executed without thinking, and the "everything is a target". I wish there were more really good folks doing some serious Krav two day classes as an add on for folks in regular programs like BJJ. What I loved about BJJ was I could really go work my butt off at near 100% against another human, and it translated really well to cop work. It is the martial art I have actually invested the most into, which says something about where it ranks in my priorities "of things to do". With that said, I did not drink enough kool-aid while there to start poo pooing everything else, and what I found on the street was a lot of my "other stuff" made the submissions and control stuff from BJJ much more effective. I can set a figure two or four leg lock much faster when I drive a steel-toe boot into a dudes nut sack than just trying to set the lock......I didn't learn the boot to the nut sack in BJJ, and it was actually frowned upon...;).

As far as Pencak fights.....like most stuff, Google and then start looking around on you tube. When you see stuff that has a lot of words that look like jibberish, a ring in the jungle with lots of bamboo, and two refs and every dressed in basically regular clothes....you are there. I will be searching for felony fights..thanks.

[Dismas316]

Guys this is excellent information, exactly what I was looking for. Actually found a Silant training facility (never hear of it until this thread) to far away and seems the guys' been doing this for 20+ years and mentioned they trained LE as well.

[nycnoob]

Guys this is excellent information, exactly what I was looking for. Actually found a Silant training facility (never hear of it until this thread) to far away and seems the guys' been doing this for 20+ years and mentioned they trained LE as well.

You should also talk to Cecil Burch and Paul Sharp before starting Silat training.
I know that both of those peopled studied Silat extensively and no longer practice that art.
They recommend BJJ.

[Cecil Burch]

You should also talk to Cecil Burch and Paul Sharp before starting Silat training.
I know that both of those peopled studied Silat extensively and no longer practice that art.
They recommend BJJ.

I spent decades doing various styles (Bukti Negara, Tongkat, Mustika Kwitang, Mande Muda, Kuntao, Maphilindo, etc) of silat under a number of different instructors (including 3 of the 4 Dethouars brothers) and have instructor certs in many of them. I don't do any of them at all any more. I personally have found a number of failings in all of them for real world applications. Not to speak for Paul, but I believe he found the same.

[Cecil Burch]

One of the best things about BJJ as a base for fighting is that it revolves around the the control of the other person's limbs. You cannot pass a guard, maintain a dominant position, or apply a choke or limb break without that kind of attached control. You literally spend every waking moment in BJJ working it. You need the same kind of control in a real world fight. Want to foul a bad guy's draw? Control his arm. Want to keep him from eye gouging you? Control his arm. Want to get your blaster out and go cyclic on him? Control his arm so he can't foul your draw. It is a direct carry over from straight BJJ to all of those.

Does that mean it is automatic and that any BJJ gym will do it? Not at all. Right now, there are very few that will be a "one stop shopping" location unfortunately. If you don't think of other things and focus on them at times, it is easy to forget about them and you can get lazy. IF you never work against strikes or with weapons in a legit manner, you can as a BJJ practitioner get really lazy with limb control. You will pay for it in a straight BJJ context, but the penalties are smaller and maybe easier to mentally blow off. Not so for a self-defense context.

The best thing to do is get a solid understanding of BJJ work (by the time you are a 3 or 4 stripe blue belt you will begin to get a handle on the art) and work the "extras" on the side. Doing ECQC annually is probably the best way. And building a handful of guys in a private training group that you can apply BJJ lessons in a weapon based environment is useful as hell. I would throw in doing coursework with a couple of others like Paul Sharp, Larry Lindenman (Larry is doing a vehicle based combatives block at the upcoming Ron Balicki camp in L.A. in June), and, well,...........mine as well. We have spent a very long time figuring out how all this works together and try to teach it to anyone willing to listen.

And I apologize for the sales pitch for my coursework.

[FOG]

I did some wrestling and boxing when I was younger and have had some recent exposure to KV. The Krav instructors I worked with did believe in sparring and full speed drills and taught some good fundamentals. That being said, a lot of the defenses were too orchestrated for me, especially regarding chokes.

Reminded me of hand-to-hand combat day in basic training many moons ago. They taught us 18 year olds all these moves so of course when we got back to the barracks, we had to try out our newly found bad-assness only to find if you're opponent wasn't willing, the moves weren't all that effective. Oh well, headlocks and John Wayne punches worked better anyways. :D

[nycnoob]

Dismas316 where are you from?

I know Cecil travels around quite a bit and you may be able to take his class. Neyti really enjoyed it when he took it.
I am trying to scare up some friends of mine so I have an excuse to see him again when he is in Northern NJ.
Cecil's seminar-schedule (http://www.iacombatives.com/seminar-schedule/)

Ofcourse Craig Douglas is also a BJJ advocate and he travels around too http://shivworks.com/
Not sure if this link is up to date. Craig used to be very bad about updating is website and it was better to check his forum TPI for dates but I think he is on a self-improvement plan for that now.

[Dagga Boy]

Excellent stuff from Cecil. I want to make sure I am real clear. I highly recommend a GOOD (that means do some serious research) BJJ program as a foundation and long term investment. With that said, do not limit yourself to just BJJ as an end all be all. This thread started as a "BJJ or Krav". I would suggest BJJ AND a bunch of other stuff including some Krav. As Cecil so eloquently put it, BJJ teaches control. Like firearms stuff, the ability to maintain some resemblance of control and discipline in a fight or crisis is critical to success, and that includes everything from fighting, to driving, to shooting, to your verbal skills. Control and discipline wins period. "Foundations" that teach and preach control are what you build your house on. Does not mean you cannot go to the garage to get a tool, but you do not want to live in your garage.

[BaiHu]

Dismas316 where are you from?

I know Cecil travels around quite a bit and you may be able to take his class. Neyti really enjoyed it when he took it.
I am trying to scare up some friends of mine so I have an excuse to see him again when he is in Northern NJ.
Cecil's seminar-schedule (http://www.iacombatives.com/seminar-schedule/)

Ofcourse Craig Douglas is also a BJJ advocate and he travels around too http://shivworks.com/
Not sure if this link is up to date. Craig used to be very bad about updating is website and it was better to check his forum TPI for dates but I think he is on a self-improvement plan for that now.
Please scare a bunch up nycnoob! I'd love to max his class out like we just did for Craig and EWO.

Check the class section out or go to my event's page: http://whitetigerdojo.com/boostrap/Events

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Dismas316]

Dismas316 where are you from?

I know Cecil travels around quite a bit and you may be able to take his class. Neyti really enjoyed it when he took it.
I am trying to scare up some friends of mine so I have an excuse to see him again when he is in Northern NJ.
Cecil's seminar-schedule (http://www.iacombatives.com/seminar-schedule/)

Ofcourse Craig Douglas is also a BJJ advocate and he travels around too http://shivworks.com/
Not sure if this link is up to date. Craig used to be very bad about updating is website and it was better to check his forum TPI for dates but I think he is on a self-improvement plan for that now.

I'm in the DFW area. I see that the schedule you linked show Cecil in Dallas sometime in the fall.

Nyeti, I agree completely on your comments. Will be looking at a couple in the area. thanks

[Peally]

I'm a Rex Kwon Do man myself.

[Dagga Boy]

I'm in the DFW area. I see that the schedule you linked show Cecil in Dallas sometime in the fall.

Nyeti, I agree completely on your comments. Will be looking at a couple in the area. thanks

Cecil's class in Dallas is awesome. I will likely be there.

[NickA]

I'm in the DFW area. I see that the schedule you linked show Cecil in Dallas sometime in the fall.

Nyeti, I agree completely on your comments. Will be looking at a couple in the area. thanks
Look for the posts by jackdog in the training class announcements subforum, and maybe send him a PM. He's hosting Cecil, Paul Sharp and Jerry Wetzel later this year, and may also be able to point you at some reputable BJJ schools.
I've been to many classes he's hosted (Cecil's several times) and recommend without hesitation.

Sent from my XT1095 using Tapatalk

[Mike C]

As long as you understand that neither one are the answer to the big question and every aspect of training is just one piece of the pie, BJJ taught from a vetted teacher can produce very competent individual. It is good at getting you to a "fighting" physical condition and understanding what is required to win a confrontation. There are plenty of pitfalls and issues with any such "art" and that revolves around lack of rep completion, competition based win criteria and lack of weapon handling.

If you plan on supplementing your overall training with BJJ primarily I would caution you as real world confrontations do not work like that.

Voodoo_man,

Can you please explain why you stated the last part of your post? Are you comparing working as a patrol cop and how confrontations escalate or your avg. street encounter as a civilian? Can you please provide an example? FYI, I'm not challenging you just looking to learn and pickup perspective. Thanks.


This thread is excellent.

[Jackdog]

I'm in the DFW area. I see that the schedule you linked show Cecil in Dallas sometime in the fall.

Nyeti, I agree completely on your comments. Will be looking at a couple in the area. thanks

Cecil will be back in DFW on Oct 1&2.

[dontshakepandas]

The timing of this thread couldn't be any better for me. I don't post much here but I read daily and value the input from the members above just about anything else on the web. I've been thinking about trying KM or BJJ for awhile but just recently started seriously looking into it.

This would essentially be the first exposure to any form of marital arts for me other than an after school program I went to as a kid. I'm in my late 20's and I don't work in an industry that would likely require me to be in a fight. My goals would obviously include adding to my self defense skills, but I also want a way to push myself and learn more about myself (I've also never been in a fight) as well as increase my physical fitness.

I was leaning towards starting with KM based on some light research but after reading this thread I'll definitely be starting with BJJ.

I'm also in the Dallas area and I've started looking into some BJJ schools during some down time at work. Does anyone have any experience with Alan Shebaro at Tier 1 training facility in McKinney? They are very close to me and seem to get good reviews from what I can find. I'm just not sure what to trust at this point.

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[Jackdog]

I'm also in the Dallas area and I've started looking into some BJJ schools during some down time at work. Does anyone have any experience with Alan Shebaro at Tier 1 training facility in McKinney? They are very close to me and seem to get good reviews from what I can find. I'm just not sure what to trust at this point.

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I have not trained with Alan Shebaro. But I know of him from friends and BJJ black belts that do train with him. He is a Carlos Machado black belt. He is very skilled and is reputed to be a good instructor. If I lived in McKinney I would the go there or to the RCM school in Allen. Either one will give you a solid base. You might get more "street"'oriented BJJ from Alan since his former SF.

Also, you need to get signed up for Cecil's IAJJ/IAP class Oct. 1&2.

[dontshakepandas]

I have not trained with Alan Shebaro. But I know of him from friends and BJJ black belts that do train with him. He is a Carlos Machado black belt. He is very skilled and is reputed to be a good instructor. If I lived in McKinney I would the go there or to the RCM school in Allen. Either one will give you a solid base. You might get more "street"'oriented BJJ from Alan since his former SF.

Also, you need to get signed up for Cecil's IAJJ/IAP class Oct. 1&2.
Thanks Jackdog! I'll stop by and check it out on my way home today.

Unfortunately, I can't make the class in October. I'll be in Hawaii during those dates. Maybe not too unfortunately.

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[voodoo_man]

Voodoo_man,

Can you please explain why you stated the last part of your post? Are you comparing working as a patrol cop and how confrontations escalate or your avg. street encounter as a civilian? Can you please provide an example? FYI, I'm not challenging you just looking to learn and pickup perspective. Thanks.


This thread is excellent.

I give this example go people who I train with...

In BJJ, if someone gets full mount, you are probably going to fight a little bit. Buck into an arch, try to push them off, defend your arms by holding them close, there are a lot of techniques.

In the real world, someone full mounts you, that's a deadly force situation. BJJ training goes directly against reality in this context.

[Dismas316]

Has anyone heard of Alejandro Siqueira? He runs a Gracie Barra gym that's seems closest to me. GB Southlake is his facility.

[Jackdog]

Has anyone heard of Alejandro Siqueira? He runs a Gracie Barra gym that's seems closest to me. GB Southlake is his facility.

I haven't heard of him but I can check with my coach. He know most all of the BJJ guys in DFW.

If your close to Southlake check out Peak Performance BJJ Southlake. Located at 1607 Hart Ct. This is were I am training now.

http://peakbjjsouthlake.com

[SLG]

I have to agree with Peally. I didn't want to intimidate any of you, but having been a long time practitioner of Rex Kwon Do, I feel I am definitely the right candidate for president. Even typing that, I'm afraid I may have killed one of you. Sorry.

On a more serious note, I recently spent a very interesting dinner with Cecil and Chuck. I should be at ECQC next month, but I plan to train with Cecil as soon as possible.

[Kimura]

My opinion is BJJ AND wrestling/grappling into a striking art be it muay thai or boxing or both. So, BJJ to MMA. You have to do research to find good schools. MMA has exploded over the last few years and the effect has been the same as the firearms training industry; which is to say there's a lot of good opportunities out there and a lot of bad ones as well. There's a lot of good fight schools, but some are better for beginners than others. I would look closely at the whatever programs you have in your area. The things I look for is who is training there, not because I need to train with Jon Jones or whomever but because that's a good indication that the quality of training is pretty high. Do they have individual programs? So can I just do boxing or just do muay thai, just do BJJ or wrestling, then work my way to the others if I wish. I don't generally like MMA only programs just because it doesn't offer much flexibility. And I look at the schedule so I can see that they give classes in various disciplines and combine them for fight training; again versatility. I do recommend you work into a variety of disciplines, but don't be overly anxious to move on. Get your feet under you in one, then move to the others. A good teacher or trainer won't change anything in your skill set as long as it's good, but instead will try to add to that skill set, if that makes sense. And that's what it's really about, an ever widening set of skills that are yours and you can use together to be the fighter that you are.

I think getting your feet wet in BJJ and grappling, then moving to a striking art is the best way to go, but you certainly can do it in reverse if you would prefer. The other thing is that I personally believe that to learn to fight, you have to fight and there is some inherent risk in that. But I think it's hard to learn what you need to learn without actually doing it. And finally, you have to find a level you're comfortable participating at. Most people aren't made for the highest levels; it's a lot. But even if you're not, doesn't mean you shouldn't participate. It means finding a gym that accommodates this, which will be most good gyms outside of the ones that cater to pro fighters only. Just my opinion, but I hope it helps.

[45dotACP]

Like most on this thread, I tend to prefer BJJ. It's not that I don't think there's value to be added from knowing a few dirty fighting tricks, it's just that I see them as the point shooting of the hand to hand world...

You know...how a USPSA GM can probably "point shoot" pretty well....but how "Brownie" Robin Brown will never be a USPSA GM?

Yeah. I look at hand to hand skills the same way. The sport aspect is indeed a sport, but having a firm grasp on BJJ and groundfighting and then learning how to employ weapons by someone like Craig Douglas, Paul Sharp or Cecil Burch is probably better than just going to a Krav Maga place and pantomiming nut punches and eye gouges. For all their benefits, nut punches and eye gouges tend to be fairly easy to learn....an extensive and technical groundfighting/Kickboxing/Muay Thai game...not so much. But it is worth learning.

Then of course, there's a matter of how much training you really need to survive most encounters and what skill level you envision your enemy. I find that the better I get at martial arts (gun games, BJJ etc) the more I realize that there are a LOT of dudes out there who are significantly better than I am.

[Mr Pink]

I'm going to agree mostly with Kimura's advice. I'd start with BJJ for about 6 months, then move into some MMA, and then eventually Krav Maga. You could also do it the other way around and start with KM.

I've done BJJ, combatives, MMA, and KM. Combatives and KM give you defensive scenarios and scenario based training, BUT hands down, my technical skills in BJJ were far superior to even the instructor. Did that mean that instructor had nothing to offer? No, I really appreciated the scenario based training and the weapon disarming techniques.

Bottom line do both! After you have a few months of each, come back here and give us your pros and cons. I'll bet they'll be similar to the experiences of those who have trained in both systems.

[Al T.]

Does anyone have any experience with Alan Shebaro?

Can't speak about his HTH skills, but several years back spent an afternoon with him coaching several folks in shooting. Good instructor, think he had just ETS'd from FT Bragg where he was apparently an 18 series guy. Would train with him again.

[SeriousStudent]

I have not trained with Alan Shebaro. But I know of him from friends and BJJ black belts that do train with him. He is a Carlos Machado black belt. He is very skilled and is reputed to be a good instructor. If I lived in McKinney I would the go there or to the RCM school in Allen. Either one will give you a solid base. You might get more "street"'oriented BJJ from Alan since his former SF.

Also, you need to get signed up for Cecil's IAJJ/IAP class Oct. 1&2.

Thanks for the recommendations. I was just going to ping you on that topic.

[11B10]

Excellent stuff from Cecil. I want to make sure I am real clear. I highly recommend a GOOD (that means do some serious research) BJJ program as a foundation and long term investment. With that said, do not limit yourself to just BJJ as an end all be all. This thread started as a "BJJ or Krav". I would suggest BJJ AND a bunch of other stuff including some Krav. As Cecil so eloquently put it, BJJ teaches control. Like firearms stuff, the ability to maintain some resemblance of control and discipline in a fight or crisis is critical to success, and that includes everything from fighting, to driving, to shooting, to your verbal skills. Control and discipline wins period. "Foundations" that teach and preach control are what you build your house on. Does not mean you cannot go to the garage to get a tool, but you do not want to live in your garage.


Nyeti, I have always sensed a core, an underlying principle if you will - in your posts about control and discipline winning the fight, as in the post above. The topic doesn't seem to matter. Recently, you (and many others) were discussing all the nuances of staging trigger pulls, taking up the slack, etc. You always stress using your mind in real world fights of any kind, which has really made ME think. Thanks to everyone in this thread - I learn something here every day.

[Mike C]

I give this example go people who I train with...

In BJJ, if someone gets full mount, you are probably going to fight a little bit. Buck into an arch, try to push them off, defend your arms by holding them close, there are a lot of techniques.

In the real world, someone full mounts you, that's a deadly force situation. BJJ training goes directly against reality in this context.

Completely agree its a deadly force issue and in some gyms this would definitely go against reality. Would you say though that this is instructor dependent? I agree when you that there are a lot of places like this but is this not why you roll with punches and slaps to remind one another of that?

[Mike C]

One of the best things about BJJ as a base for fighting is that it revolves around the the control of the other person's limbs. You cannot pass a guard, maintain a dominant position, or apply a choke or limb break without that kind of attached control. You literally spend every waking moment in BJJ working it. You need the same kind of control in a real world fight. Want to foul a bad guy's draw? Control his arm. Want to keep him from eye gouging you? Control his arm. Want to get your blaster out and go cyclic on him? Control his arm so he can't foul your draw. It is a direct carry over from straight BJJ to all of those.

Does that mean it is automatic and that any BJJ gym will do it? Not at all. Right now, there are very few that will be a "one stop shopping" location unfortunately. If you don't think of other things and focus on them at times, it is easy to forget about them and you can get lazy. IF you never work against strikes or with weapons in a legit manner, you can as a BJJ practitioner get really lazy with limb control. You will pay for it in a straight BJJ context, but the penalties are smaller and maybe easier to mentally blow off. Not so for a self-defense context.

The best thing to do is get a solid understanding of BJJ work (by the time you are a 3 or 4 stripe blue belt you will begin to get a handle on the art) and work the "extras" on the side. Doing ECQC annually is probably the best way. And building a handful of guys in a private training group that you can apply BJJ lessons in a weapon based environment is useful as hell. I would throw in doing coursework with a couple of others like Paul Sharp, Larry Lindenman (Larry is doing a vehicle based combatives block at the upcoming Ron Balicki camp in L.A. in June), and, well,...........mine as well. We have spent a very long time figuring out how all this works together and try to teach it to anyone willing to listen.

And I apologize for the sales pitch for my coursework.

Cecil, awesome post. Is there a particular standup game or art that you would say pairs best with BJJ? Also, according to my instructor there are some BJJ based weapons defense stuff but that won't open up until later. Would you say that it is good material or are things learned in ECQC, with you, or one of the other instructors a better option? I ask because I've still got a little ways to go to get my blue belt and would like to work more on those skills. I'm not sure if I can make it to ECQC this Oct so if I can't I would like to find some other material to work on in the meant time until I can get back or get to one of your clinics. Thank you.

[orionz06]

I give this example go people who I train with...

In BJJ, if someone gets full mount, you are probably going to fight a little bit. Buck into an arch, try to push them off, defend your arms by holding them close, there are a lot of techniques.

In the real world, someone full mounts you, that's a deadly force situation. BJJ training goes directly against reality in this context.

What is the response then?

[voodoo_man]

Completely agree its a deadly force issue and in some gyms this would definitely go against reality. Would you say though that this is instructor dependent? I agree when you that there are a lot of places like this but is this not why you roll with punches and slaps to remind one another of that?

Most BJJ schools won't touch it. They teach competition and they are good at that. Some places will have "defensive" branded courses randomly thrown in that are BJJ centric. Having a good base knowledge of blades and pistols goes a long way in this context.

@orionz06, the issue is that the "ground and pound" is universal for most people as the go to. If they get on top of you a d start punching you in the face, there isn't any ref to stop it. Getting knocked out isn't just a consideration it's reality.

Furthermore, the portability of dealing with more than one person is high enough to escalate the situation. One good kick in the head and it's lights out. If you didn't pull that gun or blade before well you'd be lucky if they don't use it on you - why find out?

[secondstoryguy]

One of the best BJJ instructors I had would have one or two days a week dedicated to striking based ground/stand up training and weapons integration. He would also remind you while you were learning second techniques that the person could be hitting you/stabbing you in that position. I've tried to find another instructor that mimics this but even in the larger city of Austin where I live I've come up dry.

I've found that 99.999% of BJJ schools are solely focused on the competitive BJJ. Most have some striking programs, usually an adjunct instructor that drops in once or twice a week, but few if any integrate striking and weapons into their ground training. Competition based BJJ schools are awesome as you learn what works on the ground from people who know what they are doing but I do feel there are holes in many of their techniques due to the non-weapon/striking aspect.

[GAP]

BJJ with an eventual progression to Muay Thai or Boxing.

As Cecil mentioned, it's about control. I mentioned in another thread I had a drunk loud mouth jump on me from behind and drag me to the ground a few years ago. Within about 10 seconds he was sleeping because he separated his arms and ended up in a triangle. People who do not train have no clue what is going on.

If you are 150 lbs and you try to poke a 200+ lbs athletic guy in the eye he's going to shove that hand up your ass. With a vast knowledge of Jiu jitsu and a mindset to win, there's a good chance you're coming out on top. Almost every single time a bigger guy will throw a haymaker or two from the moon then bull rush you and try to drive you to the ground.

I've fought many times professionally.. Honestly feel like the guys who haven't use the cop out of, "ya but ill punch you in the balls." We can do that crap too, the only difference is you're going to piss us off enough to break all four of your limbs instead of one.

[Mike C]

One of the best BJJ instructors I had would have one or two days a week dedicated to striking based ground/stand up training and weapons integration. He would also remind you while you were learning second techniques that the person could be hitting you/stabbing you in that position. I've tried to find another instructor that mimics this but even in the larger city of Austin where I live I've come up dry.

I've found that 99.999% of BJJ schools are solely focused on the competitive BJJ. Most have some striking programs, usually an adjunct instructor that drops in once or twice a week, but few if any integrate striking and weapons into their ground training. Competition based BJJ schools are awesome as you learn what works on the ground from people who know what they are doing but I do feel there are holes in many of their techniques due to the non-weapon/striking aspect.

I will count myself fortunate to have seemed to find such a place. I agree that the competition based schools leave a hole in the game, (though I do think there is some merit to be had there). It is also awesome that my instructor is interested in hosting people like Craig/Cecil as well as starting a very selected training group to do weapons based stuff and force on force once. I hate to be a stripe counter but I can't wait to finish polishing up the basics so I can plug some of the other giant holes I found I had at ECQC.

@GAP, did you start BJJ and work your way into Muay Thai or Boxing first? Which one did you find you had a preference for and why, did you feel one lends itself more naturally to the standing BJJ with the anti-boxing stuff? I ask because I initially had a really hard time with the anti-boxing stuff. It felt very awkward and is just now starting to feel better. I would like to round that out with some good basic standup skills once I have my solid base in BJJ.

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti, I have always sensed a core, an underlying principle if you will - in your posts about control and discipline winning the fight, as in the post above. The topic doesn't seem to matter. Recently, you (and many others) were discussing all the nuances of staging trigger pulls, taking up the slack, etc. You always stress using your mind in real world fights of any kind, which has really made ME think. Thanks to everyone in this thread - I learn something here every day.

I was lucky enough to have not gotten killed figuring out something most really good folks figure out....your brain is the weapon, everything else are tools. The difference is actually being able to do it versus a signature line or a t-shirt. I was blessed with great mentors and just smart enough to know to listen to them. Lord knows, I have been down a few rabbit holes, but in the end I found the ability to remain disciplined in chaos is what wins. It also applied to vehicle chases, car accidents, flying emergencies, guns, knives, fighting, and dealing with supervisors who pissed me off.



BJJ with an eventual progression to Muay Thai or Boxing.

As Cecil mentioned, it's about control. I mentioned in another thread I had a drunk loud mouth jump on me from behind and drag me to the ground a few years ago. Within about 10 seconds he was sleeping because he separated his arms and ended up in a triangle. People who do not train have no clue what is going on.

If you are 150 lbs and you try to poke a 200+ lbs athletic guy in the eye he's going to shove that hand up your ass. With a vast knowledge of Jiu jitsu and a mindset to win, there's a good chance you're coming out on top. Almost every single time a bigger guy will throw a haymaker or two from the moon then bull rush you and try to drive you to the ground.

I've fought many times professionally.. Honestly feel like the guys who haven't use the cop out of, "ya but ill punch you in the balls." We can do that crap too, the only difference is you're going to piss us off enough to break all four of your limbs instead of one.

Excellent advice. Through my long adventure that started with studying Gene Lebell's book daily through a structured BJJ program for my ground work and as a base I found the ability to really control folks and be comfortable on the ground was critical, and that needed to be combined with good striking ability. For me, combining the blade stuff and striking together makes training more efficient. The biggest benefit I saw with the Muay Thai was the hard low kicks and knees. I found that to also be very effective in typical street confined space work.

[orionz06]

If you are 150 lbs and you try to poke a 200+ lbs athletic guy in the eye he's going to shove that hand up your ass.

Now give that same advice to a 100# woman... It's a fucking joke. Sending soccer moms to some bullshit school and letting them leave thinking they can groin kick someone and that's all they gotta do.

[David S.]

Craig Douglas is running Edged Weapons Overview in Dallas on July 23-24.

[jc000]

Most BJJ schools won't touch it. They teach competition and they are good at that. Some places will have "defensive" branded courses randomly thrown in that are BJJ centric. Having a good base knowledge of blades and pistols goes a long way in this context.

@orionz06, the issue is that the "ground and pound" is universal for most people as the go to. If they get on top of you a d start punching you in the face, there isn't any ref to stop it. Getting knocked out isn't just a consideration it's reality.

Furthermore, the portability of dealing with more than one person is high enough to escalate the situation. One good kick in the head and it's lights out. If you didn't pull that gun or blade before well you'd be lucky if they don't use it on you - why find out?



I've found that 99.999% of BJJ schools are solely focused on the competitive BJJ. Most have some striking programs, usually an adjunct instructor that drops in once or twice a week, but few if any integrate striking and weapons into their ground training. Competition based BJJ schools are awesome as you learn what works on the ground from people who know what they are doing but I do feel there are holes in many of their techniques due to the non-weapon/striking aspect.

I have to challenge both of these statements. I've only really been exposed to the teams / academies local to me, so maybe there are solely competition-focused BJJ schools out there, but these comments run counter to what I've experienced with my limited years training and competing.

BJJ provides you with plenty of tools in dealing with a mounted attacker –*to include any number of ways to get him / her the fuck off you that you can practice with real, live 100% resisting opponents and get in your thousands of reps.

It would be ridiculous to pull guard in a street fight, but just because that's a common competition move it doesn't mean that basic white-belt level BJJ training doesn't give you practicable ways to disengage from an attacker should you find yourself on the ground with them. If I found myself on the ground and there was more than one attacker, BJJ provides plenty of options to create space, get distance, and get to my feet before I got stomped to death.

As has been mentioned numerous times, I don't think that putting all your eggs in one basket is the right answer. Wrestling, western boxing, thai / kick boxing, BJJ… there is merit in all these disciplines. If you can put together some solid (meaning not a few months' training) fundamentals in both a striking and grappling art, and spend time actively sparring in both styles individually and combined together in an MMA or Vale Tudo type environment, you'll be pretty well equipped to deal with a lot of typically untypical situations, IMO.

[orionz06]

I was lucky enough to have not gotten killed figuring out something most really good folks figure out....your brain is the weapon, everything else are tools.



It would be ridiculous to pull guard in a street fight, but just because that's a common competition move it doesn't mean that basic white-belt level BJJ training doesn't give you practicable ways to disengage from an attacker should you find yourself on the ground with them. If I found myself on the ground and there was more than one attacker, BJJ provides plenty of options to create space, get distance, and get to my feet before I got stomped to death.

DB said it... The brain is the weapon, all the different techniques are the tools. A 6 month white belt would/should have enough tricks in their hat to know that getting mounted sucks and have a few different ways to not get there. More so... We don't always get to choose. Would be a bitch to be stuck under some hoodrat pounding on your face thinking that the competition shit that might get you out from underneath him was just dumb sport stuff.


Just think. Hell, I bet if you looked hard enough you might see some free videos on how to adapt a "sport" game to a "street" game.


Craig Douglas is running Edged Weapons Overview in Dallas on July 23-24.

Very solid course with loads of stand up grappling and clinch work that will focus on not going to the ground.

[jc000]

Very solid course with loads of stand up grappling and clinch work that will focus on not going to the ground.

To that point, one of the GREAT aspects of Muay Thai aside from the very effective strikes is working the standing clinch. Using a round kick in a street fight is probably going to generally be pretty stupid (ask me how I know :() but knowing how to get in and get out of the standing clinch along with attacks and defenses in that position, and being able to rep them in realistic practice is golden.

[GAP]

@GAP, did you start BJJ and work your way into Muay Thai or Boxing first? Which one did you find you had a preference for and why, did you feel one lends itself more naturally to the standing BJJ with the anti-boxing stuff? I ask because I initially had a really hard time with the anti-boxing stuff. It felt very awkward and is just now starting to feel better. I would like to round that out with some good basic standup skills once I have my solid base in BJJ.

I studied BJJ for about 5 years first. I was a good purple belt before I even bothered with formal striking instruction. I just did it at first for self defense because I was smaller than most. I entered jiu jitsu competitions and got used to grappling with much larger people. From there I decided I wanted to try MMA so I needed to learn how to strike the same way I learned how to grapple.

I was fortunate that I did my research and made sure I studied under people with a strong lineage. The several BJJ instructors I've had were all promoted by Gracies.

Both Muay Thai and Boxing are fine for learning how to strike. Both involve live sparring, bag work, learning how to take a punch. If you are lanky you may rather Muay Thai for the distance advantage of kicking. If you are short and stocky then you may prefer boxing so you can work inside with hooks and uppercuts. Something to consider.


Now give that same advice to a 100# woman... It's a fucking joke. Sending soccer moms to some bullshit school and letting them leave thinking they can groin kick someone and that's all they gotta do.

Precisely. Our women's self defense program uses BJJ as a base but teaches what to do in situations. In other words what to look for when the guy's guard is down and he thinks you are defeated. Teaching a woman boxing and thinking she will knock the shit out of an athletic male is insanity.

[voodoo_man]

I have to challenge both of these statements. I've only really been exposed to the teams / academies local to me, so maybe there are solely competition-focused BJJ schools out there, but these comments run counter to what I've experienced with my limited years training and competing.

BJJ provides you with plenty of tools in dealing with a mounted attacker –*to include any number of ways to get him / her the fuck off you that you can practice with real, live 100% resisting opponents and get in your thousands of reps.

It would be ridiculous to pull guard in a street fight, but just because that's a common competition move it doesn't mean that basic white-belt level BJJ training doesn't give you practicable ways to disengage from an attacker should you find yourself on the ground with them. If I found myself on the ground and there was more than one attacker, BJJ provides plenty of options to create space, get distance, and get to my feet before I got stomped to death.

As has been mentioned numerous times, I don't think that putting all your eggs in one basket is the right answer. Wrestling, western boxing, thai / kick boxing, BJJ… there is merit in all these disciplines. If you can put together some solid (meaning not a few months' training) fundamentals in both a striking and grappling art, and spend time actively sparring in both styles individually and combined together in an MMA or Vale Tudo type environment, you'll be pretty well equipped to deal with a lot of typically untypical situations, IMO.

Lets put things into context here so we know what we are talking about.

US wrestling - high school / college level = zero striking, points based sport system specifically designed and taught for competition victories, practiced on mats with ear guards and mouth pieces.

US Boxing - hobby level to professional sport fighting = all striking and stand up, zero grappling or take downs, points based sport system specifically designed and taught for competition victories, practiced in "rings" with oversized gloves for protection and mouth pieces. Chances of breaking your first/hand/wrist actually doing this live without pads on the street in a fight are more probable than not and what happens when you break your hands? You lose the ability to effectively apply a weapon system.

Thai / Kick Boxing - toddler to professional - depending on where you learn it there may be pads, there may be wood wrapped in rope, either way requires continuous exposure by a competent instructor to effectively apply it to people in a real world application. Train with pads and over sized gloves to develop striking ability, zero grappling. Again, designed to be applied with pads and gloves (protection) probability of hurting and/or breaking your arms/legs is higher than normal. In wide use for "cardio" style workouts - ie; soccer moms, weak dudes.

BJJ - toddler to professional - most schools will focus on competition, rules against doing certain moves (reaps, heel's, etc), focused on getting points to win a competition and zero striking. Practiced on a mat with a gi or no gi (not wearing/carrying anything other than a belt).

Krav - adult level - beserker style randomness designed to give people confidence in their lack of skillset, specifically to use every means necessary to overcome a threat, weapons, etc, no specific formula per se.

Yoga - All levels, zero offensive training, skin tight pants and long hair required, guaranteed to make you give it up super easy, awesome on the body and great for muscle/core development.

Given the above stated observations, you have sports being taught as "defensive" tactics, and people will overlook other, very viable training because they want a "one stop shop."

When I went through the academy many years ago we were taught "defensive tactics" the instructor had a black belt in some sort of karate thing and it was mostly "bent wrist comealongs" and arm bars. We were also taught forward/front kicks, no strikes/punches/etc. All of that stuff goes out the window pretty quickly when someone is actively resisting you and/or is larger than you and is using their weight against you.

Having a multi-branched discipline is very important, because not only will you be unable to plan for a specific incident, but doing so will get you into trouble when it doesn't happen or happens in a slightly different "dynamic" way.

[David S.]

That competition based stuff 'll get you kilt in da streetz, yo!

I guess I should put my life at risk by become a metro cop or SF operator so I can get the real world experience to protect myself.

In no way is this snarky comment meant to disrespect either cops or military folks.

[voodoo_man]

That competition based stuff 'll get you kilt in da streetz, yo!

I guess I should put my life at risk by become a metro cop or SF operator so I can get the real world experience to protect myself.

In no way is this snarky comment meant to disrespect either cops or military folks.

So then it's a sarcastic comment that adds nothing to the discussion?

Got it.

Thanks for contributing.

[jc000]

Having a multi-branched discipline is very important, because not only will you be unable to plan for a specific incident, but doing so will get you into trouble when it doesn't happen or happens in a slightly different "dynamic" way.

If you look at the last para on my post above I'm not sure that we're saying different things here? Where I disagree is in a statement like this:

"In BJJ, if someone gets full mount, you are probably going to fight a little bit. Buck into an arch, try to push them off, defend your arms by holding them close, there are a lot of techniques.

In the real world, someone full mounts you, that's a deadly force situation. BJJ training goes directly against reality in this context."

Even competition-focused BJJ would absolutely stress getting the hell out from under mount. The mount escapes I've seen taught address dealing with striking attacks. What other discipline would give an individual the tools so that they can defend, get control, create space and (if need be) access a weapon when mounted by an attacker?

[DI1]

Now give that same advice to a 100# woman... It's a fucking joke. Sending soccer moms to some bullshit school and letting them leave thinking they can groin kick someone and that's all they gotta do.

Give that 150lb guy or 100lb woman a blade and very little training and that 200lb guy will die before he realizes he's been stabbed/cut multiple times!

There is no one school/martial art that will get you to a level of proficiency in defending your LIFE. As stated by many, you need to be well rounded and have a good skill set in multiple disciplines if you are serious about this and not just trying to make yourself feel good or win trophies!

[voodoo_man]

If you look at the last para on my post above I'm not sure that we're saying different things here? Where I disagree is in a statement like this:

"In BJJ, if someone gets full mount, you are probably going to fight a little bit. Buck into an arch, try to push them off, defend your arms by holding them close, there are a lot of techniques.

In the real world, someone full mounts you, that's a deadly force situation. BJJ training goes directly against reality in this context."

Even competition-focused BJJ would absolutely stress getting the hell out from under mount. The mount escapes I've seen taught address dealing with striking attacks. What other discipline would give an individual the tools so that they can defend, get control, create space and (if need be) access a weapon when mounted by an attacker?

At the root of it I am sure we are only having a conversation about a very niche/specific application of various concepts/disciplines.

I try not to play the what-if game in terms of combatives and try to gain as much knowledge as possible.

I brought up the mount because I've seen this happen, hell I've done it to people on the street. It is super deadly and allows the person on top practical free reign on the person beneath. In BJJ there is no striking, so you do not know how it will effect your escape attempt. Furthermore, in BJJ there are never two attackers, one of which is almost always a "opportunity" type of attacker, meaning the moment you roll and you get that bottom position he'll plant his boot upside your head and no level of experience in anything will give you an edge on that.

Furthermore, we do not know what type of situation we will find ourselves in and while training for those positions is always a good idea, understanding the core concepts through proper mindset development is the proper avenue for survival here.

I am not advocating shooting the guy who gets on top of you without any other factors, obviously that's not good to go. The probability of someone getting mount and dropping fists on your face/head is so high that you have to know what you are going to do before it happens. That second or two you are trying to shove him off of you may be just enough for him to drop one well placed or lucky punch and you start seeing stars or worse, go limp. Both of which are completely unacceptable outcomes but extremely likely in that context.

[orionz06]

Really if you're mounted on someone, as an on duty cop, wouldn't you still be limited in mobility and defense from a second attacker as well?


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[jc000]

I do feel like we're talking past each other at this point.

The OP was about KM v BJJ. As a disclaimer I have not taken a KM class, though I've observed quite a few and seen some YT shenanigans. I would absolutely maintain that if the choice is between an art where you can go full speed against resisting partners vs one where you air punch and go through choreographed movements, I'll take the full speed option.

Based on some comments in this thread, there are KM trainers who incorporate full sparring, grappling etc. At that point is that even KM or really more of a Vale Tudo / JKD / MMA type training? From what I've seen that would be the exception to the rule, and even then it sounds like it incorporates BJJ techniques.

When mounted in BJJ the object isn't to shove the guy off. The object is to break down their posture which minimizes the attackers striking ability, establish control (grips), and escape. Being able to practice that with resisting opponents is hugely beneficial. Being able to practice that in an MMA setting is even better. Practicing enough times with fully resisting opponents so you can quickly get up and deal with additional attackers is huge.

Back to my additional question, what other discipline would provide the tools to deal with a mounted attacker?

[htomeheb]

Think of all the big names in Self Defense. Namely, the ones that post here... They're always talking about BJJ. Think about all the big names in MMA.... They're always talking about BJJ.


My best friend is a veteran of the IDF. He does not speak highly of KM. And that's straight from the source.


When I think Krav Maga, I think gunshow people.

[voodoo_man]

Really if you're mounted on someone, as an on duty cop, wouldn't you still be limited in mobility and defense from a second attacker as well?


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

Of course, but consider your mobility to allow you room for error and the ground/concrete isn't a multiplier.

[orionz06]

Think of all the big names in Self Defense. Namely, the ones that post here... They're always talking about BJJ. Think about all the big names in MMA.... They're always talking about BJJ.


Or wrestling. Wrestling is an issue though because there is no adult wrestling format outside of collegiate wrestling.

[voodoo_man]

Or wrestling. Wrestling is an issue though because there is no adult wrestling format outside of collegiate wrestling.

No-gi?

[spelingmastir]

Couple of points:

The OP asked about self defense and one of the less popular aspects of bjj is actual self defense. It's a series of moves that deal with different grabs and striking situations. Some schools still show this stuff with varying frequency and some guy will not give belts without showing proficiency. Many people dismiss these as corny but if practiced until they are second nature are arguably more valuable than any other aspect of bjj. It's not fighting but actually defending yourself and breaking away.

My preference is obviously for bjj as I believe it to be more sustainable. All martial arts are supposed to be for weaker people to defeat stronger ones and people forget that. Bjj is a good demonstration of this and I plan to train until I can't walk. Another important aspect of bjj is how you can control the fight and how violent it is. You can have the option to end the fight violently or subdue the opponent with a hold of submission.

[orionz06]

No-gi?

Not exactly. Wrestling by way of staying on your feet, because that's what we wanna do. Any good BJJ school will train feet to floor and essentially work wrestling but not at the same volume as pure wrestling. The goals are different. Since competitions start on the feet good schools work work all aspects, including standing grappling. Loads of overlap though.

[cclaxton]

I attend a Dojo that does both and encourages both and they see them as complementary. Many are LEO/MIL and some active in shooting sports.
FYI: I hear there is an initiative in KM Worldwide to include grappling and more extensive ground fighting in the next release of the program.
My only issue with BJJ is restrictions on practicing strikes...that being said, it doesn't stop me from going to BJJ.
Cody

[Cecil Burch]

Cecil, awesome post. Is there a particular standup game or art that you would say pairs best with BJJ? Also, according to my instructor there are some BJJ based weapons defense stuff but that won't open up until later. Would you say that it is good material or are things learned in ECQC, with you, or one of the other instructors a better option? I ask because I've still got a little ways to go to get my blue belt and would like to work more on those skills. I'm not sure if I can make it to ECQC this Oct so if I can't I would like to find some other material to work on in the meant time until I can get back or get to one of your clinics. Thank you.


Any of the boxing-centric arts are demonstrably functional - boxing, muay thai, savate, etc. They are all excellent adjuncts to a good understanding of grappling.

As for the BJJ "classic" weapons defenses - the knife and stick defenses are awful, but somewhat surprisingly to me, the gun defenses are decent. I definitely think (no, know is a better term) that there are better answers, but theirs are okay as an easily accessible starting point.

[Cecil Burch]

"sport moves" - I always laugh whenever this comes up.

The simple truth is that there is nothing in a sport set that is intrinsically different that a "street move" in BJJ at anything less that the highest level of elite competition. Points? You know what points signify? Increasingly positional control and dominance on the way to finishing a fight. For example, points are not awarded for escaping a position, because you are EXPECTED to do so. Points are not awarded for side control because it is not a difficult thing to achieve once you pass, and the person on the bottom has a lot of ways to defend and escape. You are awarded points for passing the guard - in other words, going from a neutral position at best to a better one means you are working to improve dominance. You get points for getting to mount (which is such a great place that apparently it is automatically a lethal force position so that must mean it is good to achieve it), and taking the back. All good things. You don't get points for holding a position. So points in BJJ are a nice shorthand for making it clear who is winning a fight at a given time and encouraging and rewarding people for doing what they should be doing (i.e. finishing the fight). Just because in a sport match the end result is points does not mean that is the end goal. It is the best possible end between two evenly matched competitors. Watch a match between unevenly matched competitors to see a different result.

There are a handful, and I do mean a tiny handful of moves, that are only applicable in a sport context. And they were ALL designed to be used by a high level competitor who was having no luck in using the rest of his arsenal against another high level competitor. None of these moves are considered "core moves" and none are taught to beginners at any legitimate school. ANYWHERE. PERIOD. Not as part of the core curriculum. Worrying and discussing these moves when someone cannot pass a peer's guard, or prevent a slightly better training partner form sweeping or submitting you with basic moves is mental masturbation at best.

And as for dealing with strikes or weapons on the ground - Some schools don't bother. The majority do though, and that is based on the fact that I actually have been doing BJJ since 1989 and have probably trained in more gyms in more parts of the world than most likely everyone on this board put together. Here is something even more pertinent. The methods for dealing with weapons and strikes? It is already contained in BJJ, and always has been. That is why people like Craig Douglas started integrating BJJ into his coursework 15 years ago. I did a seminar at a competition focused gym in Northern Cali a few months ago. Within 45 minutes, I literally had everyone there dealing with strikes and weapons like they had been doing it for years. It takes not time at all to introduce the concept to a good practitioner.

And the best methods for escaping the mount in a lethal force situation are the same methods for escaping the mount when they guy is holding you down, or trying to choke you, or break your arm.

Do I think that BJJ is the end all, be all? Of course not. You need a multidisciplinary approach, and you need to work specific scenarios (multiple opponents, weapons, etc) on a regular basis. But nothing prepares you better for all that than a solid grounding in BJJ.

[Dagga Boy]

Great stuff Cecil. I would like to add one caution on the striking stuff and why I have gone to the edged weapons based stuff for striking.....hitting people without gloves in the head with have very bad results. I almost exclusively train with hammer fists now. Many of my LE co-workers broke hands often. I did much better, but was in the bad graces of admin for wearing half finger padded gloves all the time from day one off probation. Being I don't do that now, I try to real focus any striking on use of knees, elbows, and hammer fists.

[JAD]

Craig Douglas is running Edged Weapons Overview in Dallas on July 23-24.
I'll be there. Whether that's good or bad...

[Dismas316]

Cecil thanks for your comments. When I asked about this two days ago I knew very little of either but just all the comments have encouraged me to do more research( listened to your interview on ballistic radio on my flight today). The big takeaway is the bjj is a fantastic place to start and to broaden my skills with exploring other disciplines to compliment and add to those. Everyone's input has been very valuable (as always with this forum). I hope to get with a gym in the next week and really hope I can get my boys involved. They both earned their black belts at 8 years old in taekwondo (laughing as I write this, they couldn't do one form today, that was a bit of a money hole).

Anyway great stuff and hope to get to your class this fall in Dallas.

[SLG]

This seems like as good a thread as any to post this, since I'm pretty excited about it. Later this week, I'll get to do another seminar with Royce Gracie. Did one in the 96, 97 time frame once before. Looking forward to it, but I'm not going to go easy on him this time:-)

[dookie1481]

Sport vs. Street, 2016

7509

[jc000]

That's pretty sweet. Rickson is coming to do a seminar up this way next month but I'm too poor to go. :( Sucks too, just watched Choke with my son for the first time and I think he's starstruck.

Have fun at the seminar!

[Kimura]

Cecil thanks for your comments. When I asked about this two days ago I knew very little of either but just all the comments have encouraged me to do more research( listened to your interview on ballistic radio on my flight today). The big takeaway is the bjj is a fantastic place to start and to broaden my skills with exploring other disciplines to compliment and add to those. Everyone's input has been very valuable (as always with this forum). I hope to get with a gym in the next week and really hope I can get my boys involved. They both earned their black belts at 8 years old in taekwondo (laughing as I write this, they couldn't do one form today, that was a bit of a money hole).

Anyway great stuff and hope to get to your class this fall in Dallas.

I think you'll enjoy it. Take it all in and learn because learning is really what you're there for. Don't mind the comp versus street thing that a lot of people bring up. After you get grounded in it, you'll start figuring out what options you have in different situations. Being a good fighter takes a lot of thinking. And in order to get your mind working on solutions while you're under pressure, you need someone or eventually a number of someones to show you alternatives and you'll need some experience doing it. There really is no substitution for experience. Eventually do move on to a striking art. A good system and trainer will work all aspects of standup including standing grappling and dirty boxing. There's overlap among the arts as well and there are valuable things to learn in many places. Finally, there are no guarantees. Fights have a life of their own. X move won't work 100% of the time. Again, being able to think and adjust under pressure and when injured is beyond valuable.

Hope your kids get involved in it as well. If they started in TKD, they should be really good kickers and BJJ will add to their skill set.

Enjoy and check back in periodically.

[GAP]

This seems like as good a thread as any to post this, since I'm pretty excited about it. Later this week, I'll get to do another seminar with Royce Gracie. Did one in the 96, 97 time frame once before. Looking forward to it, but I'm not going to go easy on him this time:-)

Ironically, Royce signed and promoted my white, blue and purple belts. :cool:

Have fun, my team and gym were affiliated with him when I was fighting. He's a friend of a friend.. Oh and if you wanted to strike up a conversation, he's really into firearms.

[SLG]

Ironically, Royce signed and promoted my white, blue and purple belts. :cool:

Have fun, my team and gym were affiliated with him when I was fighting. He's a friend of a friend.. Oh and if you wanted to strike up a conversation, he's really into firearms.

We will actually be going shooting after the seminar...if my Rex Kwon Do doesn't hurt him too badly. Last time we trained, I used the drunken fish technique, and it really got inside his SPOODA loop. :-)

[GAP]

We will actually be going shooting after the seminar...if my Rex Kwon Do doesn't hurt him too badly. Last time we trained, I used the drunken fish technique, and it really got inside his SPOODA loop. :-)

I am not aware of that technique.. I just punched him in the bawls like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=57Mva-3n7TY

[SLG]

I am not aware of that technique.. I just punched him in the bawls like this:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=57Mva-3n7TY

You must not train very much then. I prefer not to touch other men in their pink underwear. What is the sound of clapping? When you can answer this, you will know the drunken fish. Only then will you become the Dragon Warrior.

:-)

[GRV]

You must defeat Sheng Long to stand a chance.

[Backspin]

For those looking to get into BJJ, look at articles on how to avoid hand injuries. I just gave myself a mallet finger on my dominant hand ring finger. I was tightly gripping my partner's gi sleeve on the outside when he pulled away quickly. Learned the hard way on how gripping the gi (even when done properly) can lead to injuries. I read Keenan Cornelius can't even make a fist because his hands are so messed up!

Now I have to shoot with my support hand for a while and likely will have to miss at least a week on the mats. Don't be like me.

[dookie1481]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfu7YRjd86Y

[DacoRoman]

For those looking to get into BJJ, look at articles on how to avoid hand injuries. I just gave myself a mallet finger on my dominant hand ring finger. I was tightly gripping my partner's gi sleeve on the outside when he pulled away quickly. Learned the hard way on how gripping the gi (even when done properly) can lead to injuries. I read Keenan Cornelius can't even make a fist because his hands are so messed up!

Now I have to shoot with my support hand for a while and likely will have to miss at least a week on the mats. Don't be like me.

I've never done a grappling art and I would like to start one. Thank you for bringing this point up as it certainly seems worth considering. I come from a San Soo background which emphasizes lots of striking and offensive techniques (groin, eye, jaw hinge, larynx, carotid strikes) and more limited grappling. However a point that was made to me early on is practicing in street clothes and not to place emphasis on GI specific techniques as a likely opponent won't be wearing a GI. But the added point regarding hand injuries when grabbing GI's is something I've not been aware of. Is there a BJJ school or instructors that emphasize grappling in street clothes and not GI's?

[orionz06]

Most schools will have both gi and no-gi classes. I wouldn't discount gi classes though, much of the applicable things done in a gi translate to street clothes.


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[DacoRoman]

Most schools will have both gi and no-gi classes. I wouldn't discount gi classes though, much of the applicable things done in a gi translate to street clothes.


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

Good point.

[Default.mp3]

Is there a BJJ school or instructors that emphasize grappling in street clothes and not GI's?As orionz06 noted, gi BJJ is quite useful. In fact, here's what Cecil Burch wrote over on TPI when I expressed a statement about how I was interested in no-gi, as it appeared to my white-belt mind that the gi introduced artificiality:

Not to sound like I am lecturing, but this is a common misconception and one that is very short-sighted. No-gi has far fewer applications to SD. Most likely any confrontation you get into the guy will be wearing clothes. If you are approached by a naked man (or someone wearing speedos) on the street, I hope you realize quickly that the situation is weird and something weird is going on BEFORE you go hands on. All the gi is, is a economical way of using cloth to fight with. You can do almost everything with people wearing t-shirts. The problem is, you will be going through t-shirts on a regular basis. So instead of having to spend $50 a month to replace shirts, you spend $150 and have clothing that can take all the punishment and last for years. For chokes especially, it is much, much easier to use a t-shirt to get the choke than a gi. My favorite choke from guard works quicker on a t-shirt or rashguard than a gi. People just get irritated when I stretch out their favorite cool guy shirt though/

I know the gut instinct is that no-gi is more SD. Nothing could be further from the truth. Learning to deal with cloth handles, both offensively and defensively is a major plus for SD. Also, no-gi has a tendency to be extremely limited in techniques, and you will lose out on learning a lot of stuff. A big drawback is that no-gi tends to be attribute drive - speed, power, size, etc. - has a much greater impact. Not much help if you are the smaller, weaker, slower person. The gi teaches you how to survive better in that situation.

It is well known and commonly accepted fact that a person with a high level of gi training can drop the gi, go no-gi for a week or two, and compete against the highest level on no-gi competition. The reverse is not true at all.

The gi teaches you to be much more technical. I had wars for years with one of my best friends, Adam Singer of the Hardcore Gym. I would argue that the gi was more technical and you learned far more. Since he was only interested in MMA and a bit of no-gi competition, he disagreed, loudly and longly. Then, as he got a little older, he started wearing the gi, and now agrees that he should have been doing it for years. He thinks all of his guys would have benefited greatly from it.

[NickA]

Cecil just posted a couple of nifty chokes using a T-shirt on his Immediate Action Combatives FB page.

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[DacoRoman]

Cecil just posted a couple of nifty chokes using a T-shirt on his Immediate Action Combatives FB page.

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That's what I'm talking about! Thanks for the heads up.

[DacoRoman]

As orionz06 noted, gi BJJ is quite useful. In fact, here's what Cecil Burch wrote over on TPI when I expressed a statement about how I was interested in no-gi, as it appeared to my white-belt mind that the gi introduced artificiality:

Point taken. I will keep an open mind, although admittedly my bias is toward skepticism regarding techniques which necessitate GI's to pull off well, as most street clothes can easily rip when GI strength force is applied to them, especially T shirts. Some shirts I guess could take strong lapel grabs, but not like a GI of course. Anyway, I get what you guys are saying about not getting one's jeans in a wad about the whole Gi thing and realizing that one can still learn good things, GI or not, including getting to learn more technical things as well.

[orionz06]

Point taken. I will keep an open mind, although admittedly my bias is toward skepticism regarding techniques which necessitate GI's to pull off well, as most street clothes can easily rip when GI strength force is applied to them, especially T shirts. Some shirts I guess could take strong lapel grabs, but not like a GI of course. Anyway, I get what you guys are saying about not getting one's jeans in a wad about the whole Gi thing and realizing that one can still learn good things, GI or not, including getting to learn more technical things as well.

Shirts don't rip enough and when done right they really don't rip at all. A gi choke is also much slower than a shirt choke.

[Mr_White]

I only have very little BJJ background, but my first training was no-gi. Then I went to a gi school, and couldn't get a damn thing done. Being able to grab gi/clothing was a huge giant factor. If/when I get back to it, I definitely want gi training.

[Mitch]

Gi training teaches you things about control, leverage, and defense that are much harder (not impossible) to learn training exclusively no-gi. When I started I trained about 5 days a week on average, one of which was no-gi. I think that's a pretty good mix.


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[DacoRoman]

Shirts don't rip enough and when done right they really don't rip at all. A gi choke is also much slower than a shirt choke.


I've seen some hilarious T shirt failures with a cross choke for example, but like you said there is probably a good way to do it out there that I don't know about.

By the way does anyone know any good BJJ dojos with a slant toward self defense in the Athens GA area?

[NickA]

I've seen some hilarious T shirt failures with a cross choke for example, but like you said there is probably a good way to do it out there that I don't know about.

By the way does anyone know any good BJJ dojos with a slant toward self defense in the Athens GA area?
The HardCore Gym for sure. Run by Rory and Adam Singer, affiliated with SBG, and I know Paul Sharp and Cecil think very highly of it.

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[DacoRoman]

The HardCore Gym for sure. Run by Rory and Adam Singer, affiliated with SBG, and I know Paul Sharp and Cecil think very highly of it.

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Thank you so much for the tip! I'll check it out for sure.

[dontshakepandas]

I went to my first class today and thought I'd give a small update in case anybody is interested.

1. It didn't take me long to get winded, but I did better than I expected. I hope to improve this and be able to take the intensity up and keep it there for longer periods of time.

2. I got my ass kicked, realized that I have no idea what I'm doing, and have much to learn.

3. After going for a few times I was at least able to slow things down and THINK. I didn't know what to do yet, but I was processing information rather than just panicking.

4. My fingertips hurt from holding onto the opponent's GI. I'm not used to using these muscles that much, but I think that will improve with time. For now the plan is: Toughen up buttercup.

5. I need to work on my flexibility. Going to start stretching twice a day. Anybody have a good list of stretches that would be helpful?

6. I was having difficulty doing what I needed to do with my hips. I think a lot of this is trying to sit too upright to actually see what I'm doing, but I think flexibility and body control comes in here too. These should improve with time as well.

Overall it was a great experience. If I learn one thing from each class I can consider that day a success. Even if I just learn how much I need to learn.

I'll definitely be going back tomorrow... If I can move.

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[ford.304]

I went to my first class today and thought I'd give a small update in case anybody is interested.

1. It didn't take me long to get winded, but I did better than I expected. I hope to improve this and be able to take the intensity up and keep it there for longer periods of time.

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I started this same process a couple months ago. You don't need to improve your conditioning as much as you need to learn to relax. Conditioning helps, but it helps a lot more when you aren't wasting your energy.

At the gym I go to, they don't let new white belts spar with other white belts, because they spaz out so much they'll get someone hurt. I almost did this myself when a dude didn't open his guard when I stood up, so I dropped him onto the mat. Don't hold onto your guard if someone picks you up (*very* bad on concrete), but also don't slam your sparring partner on the mat :)

Just calm down, breath, relax, and think about technique. It will make it easier. There's a time for intensity, but the time is in short bursts after you know what you're doing.

At least, that's what everyone else keeps drilling into my head. Even when I think I'm relaxed I'm still not :-/

[spelingmastir]

Yoga type stretches are good for jiu-jitsu and good in general. Many schools do these stretches.

As for t-shirt chokes, this combative books has some good ones:
http://www.amazon.com/H2H-Hand-Combat-Modern-Combatives/dp/1931229430

I think that it's better to learn the chokes with the gi first to understand and be able to practice them more. My advice to people starting bjj is to not focus on submissions. The core and the beauty of the art is the movement. My focus on chokes has made me really good at them but my movement isn't as strong. Remember that if you get to a good position in a fight, you can do whatever you want.

[Mr Pink]

You don't need to improve your conditioning as much as you need to learn to relax. Conditioning helps, but it helps a lot more when you aren't wasting your energy.Great Advice! If you continue to overdo it, you'll feel the pain in forearms/elbows and possibly subject yourself to injury.


Just calm down, breath, relax, and think about technique. It will make it easier. There's a time for intensity, but the time is in short bursts after you know what you're doing.More Great Advice!


I got my ass kicked, realized that I have no idea what I'm doing, and have much to learn.Don't think of it as getting your ass-kicked, but try to remember what it "feels" like right before you get put in a bad position. Learn position!

[dontshakepandas]

I felt a little more comfortable in tonight's class. Probably just from getting the first class out of the way. Still some moments where I could have benefited from just relaxing and taking a breath.

Professor Shebaro spent a lot of time working with me one on one and many of the other students were helpful as well. I feel like I was able to get a lot of of the class and I'm grateful that everyone has an attitude focused on helping each other get better.

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[ford.304]

I have been absolutely amazed at my gym at how willing all of the higher belts are to take time out of their training to help novices. Really made me happy the other day when an even newer person came in and I was able to pay it forward a little bit.

[voodoo_man]

I have been absolutely amazed at my gym at how willing all of the higher belts are to take time out of their training to help novices. Really made me happy the other day when an even newer person came in and I was able to pay it forward a little bit.

I appreciate it as well, especially when they help you learn about baseball bat chokes and other types of things that suck.

[SLG]

Got to roll with Royce today. Tried to use the floppy fish technique, but I couldn't get him to bite. He must have been studying my videos or something...

Anyway, it was an awesome class. As he was 20 years ago, he is VERY technical, and was able to improve a lot of what I was doing. Small tweaks that really helped, especially since everyone I rolled with today was 100# or more over my body weight. I don't get star struck easily, but I grew up watching him in the early UFC's, and few guys have a warrior family tradition like his. Incredibly skilled, even on top of his natural attributes.

We then got to go to the range. He's a solid shooter, and loves guns. I got invited to shoot a steel challenge match with him and a few other guys this weekend, so more exciting times in the immediate future.

This was a short, LE focused class, but one of these days, I'd really like to spend a week training with him. This class also introduced me to a good bunch of guys not too far from me who train at a Gracie Jiu jitsu school, so I may be able to more regularly roll as well. Good day all around.

[Dismas316]

Wow that's sounds like a fantastic day, very cool. I hope to check out the a gym (are they called dojo's?) this weekend.

[GAP]

Academies normally, not dojos - and yes, we are extremely humble and willing to help as long as the egos are left at the door.

No other martial art will allow a significantly smaller person (who is well trained) to dominate a much larger opponent. Period.

[Dismas316]

Just ran across this, thought it fit well with our discussion. Funny how these things work. By the way I go to my first "intro class" on Monday.


https://youtu.be/SGpDVCkhtD4

[dookie1481]

Just ran across this, thought it fit well with our discussion. Funny how these things work. By the way I go to my first "intro class" on Monday.


https://youtu.be/SGpDVCkhtD4

Jocko is awesome. Here is a convo between him and Joe Rogan as well as some clips from Rogan's show about BJJ:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfbzGXcFZ0U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Tp7LP6ciU0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDZZ5qZc6Dk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTgNoOX4MFA

[LittleLebowski]

Got to roll with Royce today. Tried to use the floppy fish technique, but I couldn't get him to bite. He must have been studying my videos or something...

Anyway, it was an awesome class. As he was 20 years ago, he is VERY technical, and was able to improve a lot of what I was doing. Small tweaks that really helped, especially since everyone I rolled with today was 100# or more over my body weight. I don't get star struck easily, but I grew up watching him in the early UFC's, and few guys have a warrior family tradition like his. Incredibly skilled, even on top of his natural attributes.

We then got to go to the range. He's a solid shooter, and loves guns. I got invited to shoot a steel challenge match with him and a few other guys this weekend, so more exciting times in the immediate future.

This was a short, LE focused class, but one of these days, I'd really like to spend a week training with him. This class also introduced me to a good bunch of guys not too far from me who train at a Gracie Jiu jitsu school, so I may be able to more regularly roll as well. Good day all around.

Not gonna lie, very envious right now.

[SLG]

Not gonna lie, very envious right now.

I'm not gonna lie, I've been pretty juiced for the last few days. My wife says I just look happier than normal:-)

We shot a Steel Challenge match with a great bunch of local LE shooters and Royce yesterday. Found a babysitter for the kids and the wife and I made a nice day of it. Really a great weekend all around.

[LittleLebowski]

I'm not gonna lie, I've been pretty juiced for the last few days. My wife says I just look happier than normal:-)

We shot a Steel Challenge match with a great bunch of local LE shooters and Royce yesterday. Found a babysitter for the kids and the wife and I made a nice day of it. Really a great weekend all around.

I spent the weekend fixing a mower :(

[orionz06]

Blah. Tapatalk posted an irrelevant old draft, disregard.

[NickA]

That is very cool. The first time I met Royler Gracie at our school I just kept thinking "Holy crap, that's a real, live Gracie!" Pretty neat to be around someone who's one of the best living practitioners of your art and part of it's history. Meanwhile he was joshing around with the kids, who wanted to know if the black and red belt meant he was the best 😀
Another random thought on BJJ: just learning to deal with the pressure and claustrophobia of being on bottom is huge. A solid, active mount or side control can make you seriously reconsider your life choices. At ECQC I got mounted, panicked, and got my ass kicked. Now I've spent so much time under pressure that it's second nature. I may or may not escape, but my panic threshold is WAY higher.

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[Dismas316]

Update!! I went and took my first bjj class today. So when posed my original question I had pretty much no clue on either martial art. I knew very little of bjj other than watching some mma,but in general, not much. So today signed up for a free class from a local gracie bjj academy that is near my house. Had know idea what to expect but wasn't bad at all. Every one was very welcoming and helpful. Basically went through some warm ups and the instructor showed varies moves that we would practice them on each other and then on to the next. Pretty fun actually but it was a little challenging as things move pretty fast but my partner who worked with me was patient and good in helping me understand the moves. Man do I have a very long way to go, but as mentioned I enjoyed it.

So is that how most work? Work on moves and then practice with each other? Obviously this was a basic fundamentals course, after it was over they had a more advanced class and immediately jumped into to more technical stuff

The instructor was very nice and didn't at all push any membership, basically offered to come to another class and if I still liked it would answer any questions for me. So I will be going back and very likely joining. They seemed to have a nice set up that you pay monthly and if you decide not to go anymore you don't. Pretty easy.

So thanks to all for the good information, if not for all the quality comments and suggestions, I wouldn't have taken the next step so thanks.

[SLG]

Good on you, I hope you enjoy it. Even if you dont, you will get something out of it.

[spelingmastir]

Update!! I went and took my first bjj class today. So when posed my original question I had pretty much no clue on either martial art. I knew very little of bjj other than watching some mma,but in general, not much. So today signed up for a free class from a local gracie bjj academy that is near my house. Had know idea what to expect but wasn't bad at all. Every one was very welcoming and helpful. Basically went through some warm ups and the instructor showed varies moves that we would practice them on each other and then on to the next. Pretty fun actually but it was a little challenging as things move pretty fast but my partner who worked with me was patient and good in helping me understand the moves. Man do I have a very long way to go, but as mentioned I enjoyed it.

So is that how most work? Work on moves and then practice with each other? Obviously this was a basic fundamentals course, after it was over they had a more advanced class and immediately jumped into to more technical stuff

The instructor was very nice and didn't at all push any membership, basically offered to come to another class and if I still liked it would answer any questions for me. So I will be going back and very likely joining. They seemed to have a nice set up that you pay monthly and if you decide not to go anymore you don't. Pretty easy.

So thanks to all for the good information, if not for all the quality comments and suggestions, I wouldn't have taken the next step so thanks.

I'm glad you took the leap and tried it. Most classes are generally run like that, starting with technique instruction followed by sparring. BJJ is known for having a more relaxed atmosphere than "traditional" martial arts and you will find that many will want to help you. Good luck!

[GAP]

Dismas316:

Typically - Warm-up > Stretch > Techniques > Drills > Rolling (Sparring)

Like everything else, 90% of it is in the fundamentals. When I competed in BJJ and MMA most fights ending in submission were with a basic choke (rear naked, triangle, guillotine), arm bar or heel hook. Very, very....very few ended with a flashy submission.

Feeling your opponent's weight, how he is leaning, whether he has over hooks or under hooks, etc. All of this is what matters in BJJ.

Position before submission should be your mindset. This translates into self defense as well. With positional dominance you will not be seriously injured and can dictate how the fight ends.

You'll learn there are certain positions where you can be submitted from and others you cannot. Prime examples would be when a guy grabs you in a headlock and squeezes as hard as possible. It might be uncomfortable until his arms tire, but with a proper defense most positions are a no-go for applying an actual choke that will render you unconscious. It just makes people freak out when they don't understand what's going on.

My advice was a little scrambled because I'm typing random thoughts as they come to mind. Good luck, stay humble and if you can go 3-4 times per week. It really helps to stay consistently active, especially in the beginning.

[ford.304]

So this is an ancient thread resurrection, but I want to brag in context.

Got my blue belt under Robin Gieseler out of Relson Gracie Columbus today. I started training 15 months ago almost to the day. I know I'm no better than I was yesterday, but man it feels good.

[Dismas316]

So this is an ancient thread resurrection, but I want to brag in context.

Got my blue belt under Robin Gieseler out of Relson Gracie Columbus today. I started training 15 months ago almost to the day. I know I'm no better than I was yesterday, but man it feels good.

Congrats!! That's awesome. Great accomplishment.

[orionz06]

So this is an ancient thread resurrection, but I want to brag in context.

Got my blue belt under Robin Gieseler out of Relson Gracie Columbus today. I started training 15 months ago almost to the day. I know I'm no better than I was yesterday, but man it feels good.

Fuck yeah!


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[Totem Polar]

So this is an ancient thread resurrection, but I want to brag in context.

Got my blue belt under Robin Gieseler out of Relson Gracie Columbus today. I started training 15 months ago almost to the day. I know I'm no better than I was yesterday, but man it feels good.

Congrats! That is excellent. I have no similar brag myself, but I did just get back 30 minutes ago from a seminar with Walter Cascao (my teacher's coach). My wrist lock game: it is instantly moar betta'. There is a time and place for everything. :D

[Paul Sharp]

So this is an ancient thread resurrection, but I want to brag in context.

Got my blue belt under Robin Gieseler out of Relson Gracie Columbus today. I started training 15 months ago almost to the day. I know I'm no better than I was yesterday, but man it feels good.

Holy cow that's fast! That's a lot of work crammed into a little over a year, congrats!!

[45dotACP]

Holy cow that's fast! That's a lot of work crammed into a little over a year, congrats!!
For real...I've been working at getting my two stripes for at least that long...

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[ford.304]

Holy cow that's fast! That's a lot of work crammed into a little over a year, congrats!!

Thanks, guys.

I'm lucky that we're not a competition-oriented school, or it would have taken a lot longer ;-) Been training 5-6 days a week for most of that time, though. Does the giant list of things to learn ever get smaller? The well is so deep.

[Paul Sharp]

Thanks, guys.

I'm lucky that we're not a competition-oriented school, or it would have taken a lot longer ;-) Been training 5-6 days a week for most of that time, though. Does the giant list of things to learn ever get smaller? The well is so deep.

Welcome to the wormhole. I posted this on FB but it applies here. I'm continually energized or inspired, (or whatever the right word might be), by how deep we can go into the fundamentals and still feel like we've only scratched the surface. Matt Thornton was showing me a choke, which was a micro view of the overall concept he has been focused on which is connection. As soon as his hands landed in my collar I was choking. Not the normal 3-10 seconds type thing, instantly I was in trouble. It's because he's been diving deep into the nuances of the fundamentals of the choke. It's really cool!

[ford.304]

That's pretty amazing!

I need to force a little more discipline on myself and just focus in on a few techniques. Right now I move and defend pretty well for a baby blue, but my game is about a mile (well, maybe a quarter-mile) wide and an inch deep. I have a friend who started at the same time (and just got his blue, too) who has worn a better groove on "his" game. When we roll, if we get into that groove, he wins every time. If I can stay out of that groove I have a chance, but I don't have quite the equivalent hammer to hit him with. Very much the "man who has practiced one kick 10000 times" thing, and I've been far too distractible.

[GAP]

Beware of the "blue belt blues." Purple is the big leap when you finally start getting it. ;)

[45dotACP]

That's pretty amazing!

I need to force a little more discipline on myself and just focus in on a few techniques. Right now I move and defend pretty well for a baby blue, but my game is about a mile (well, maybe a quarter-mile) wide and an inch deep. I have a friend who started at the same time (and just got his blue, too) who has worn a better groove on "his" game. When we roll, if we get into that groove, he wins every time. If I can stay out of that groove I have a chance, but I don't have quite the equivalent hammer to hit him with. Very much the "man who has practiced one kick 10000 times" thing, and I've been far too distractible.
My Sensei always talks about Masahiko Kimura and how he would practice Osoto Gari on a tree every day and was so good at it that nobody could stop his Osoto Gari and they asked him to stop doing it. Basically the notion that if you practice a basic technique a million times, it becomes an advanced technique. Very much applicable in the shooting world.

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[Totem Polar]

...As soon as his hands landed in my collar I was choking. Not the normal 3-10 seconds type thing, instantly I was in trouble. It's because he's been diving deep into the nuances of the fundamentals of the choke. It's really cool!

With the caveat that I am a BJJ zygote, I think I get what you all are saying. I mentioned Cascao, he's that way with wrist locks. Check out this 4 sec submission:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FoZzLlycKZ8


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FoZzLlycKZ8


Again, I'm not qualified to be any great judge, but I will say that my teacher is great with the same attacks, and he got it from laser-like observation of his coach.

[Cecil Burch]

Thanks, guys.

I'm lucky that we're not a competition-oriented school, or it would have taken a lot longer ;-) Been training 5-6 days a week for most of that time, though. Does the giant list of things to learn ever get smaller? The well is so deep.

Belt promotions have nothing to do with competition orientation or not.

[ford.304]

Belt promotions have nothing to do with competition orientation or not.

I've just meant that I've heard of some schools (admittedly, most through reading to much internet) where you have to win/place in a tournament to get your next belt. My schedule just doesn't work for that -- morning practice every day I can make, all day weekends I can't. I don't mean to knock competition/competition oriented schools at all.

[GAP]

That's pretty amazing!

I need to force a little more discipline on myself and just focus in on a few techniques. Right now I move and defend pretty well for a baby blue, but my game is about a mile (well, maybe a quarter-mile) wide and an inch deep. I have a friend who started at the same time (and just got his blue, too) who has worn a better groove on "his" game. When we roll, if we get into that groove, he wins every time. If I can stay out of that groove I have a chance, but I don't have quite the equivalent hammer to hit him with. Very much the "man who has practiced one kick 10000 times" thing, and I've been far too distractible.

Try to string some basic techniques together back to back.

For example, when in guard:

Sit-up and threaten kimura sweep, when he defends threaten guillotine, when he pulls head up and shifts weight back again time it and go back to kimura sweep, rinse and repeat. If they stay in your guard, you can usually go kimura sweep to guillotine over and over again if you bump and get up high enough to make them defend. If he steps back switch to butterfly guard and work a sweep.. if he passes over one leg to half guard get deep under his hips with underhooks and work a sweep such as the elevator sweep:


https://youtu.be/S3-7gS7DiEM

Clear as mud? :cool:

[ford.304]

Try to string some basic techniques together back to back.

For example, when in guard:

Sit-up and threaten kimura sweep, when he defends threaten guillotine, when he pulls head up and shifts weight back again time it and go back to kimura sweep, rinse and repeat. If they stay in your guard, you can usually go kimura sweep to guillotine over and over again if you bump and get up high enough to make them defend. If he steps back switch to butterfly guard and work a sweep.. if he passes over one leg to half guard get deep under his hips with underhooks and work a sweep such as the elevator sweep:

Clear as mud? :cool:

Oh yeah, break them down, hip bump/kimura when they try to get away is my *game.* That and triangles, which if course means I need to work more on my armbar from guard to set up the triangle...

The bad habit I tend to fall into is "Well, I tried the hip bump/kimura thing once. This time I'll do an arm drag to back take/pendulum sweep!" Instead of, you know, just doing the darn hip bump again and again until I get it (or they stop it, depending on my opponent).

I feel decent about my closed guard game in that sense, as I have at least 2 solid grooves worn. But then I get on top and it's all a grab bag with no connection. My immediate goal is to just pick *something* to be *my* gameplan from other positions and make myself stick to it, regardless of what cool new technique we learned today.

[GAP]

Oh yeah, break them down, hip bump/kimura when they try to get away is my *game.* That and triangles, which if course means I need to work more on my armbar from guard to set up the triangle...

The bad habit I tend to fall into is "Well, I tried the hip bump/kimura thing once. This time I'll do an arm drag to back take/pendulum sweep!" Instead of, you know, just doing the darn hip bump again and again until I get it (or they stop it, depending on my opponent).

I feel decent about my closed guard game in that sense, as I have at least 2 solid grooves worn. But then I get on top and it's all a grab bag with no connection. My immediate goal is to just pick *something* to be *my* gameplan from other positions and make myself stick to it, regardless of what cool new technique we learned today.

You can also arm drag then faint taking the back into a triangle or bait a triangle off of a deep collar choke when the hand goes up to defend trap the other arm to the ground or push it towards his back/butt.

Work a shitload of chin-ups and sit-ups if you can when not at BJJ, not sure of your strength training outside of it.

[ford.304]

You can also arm drag then faint taking the back into a triangle or bait a triangle off of a deep collar choke when the hand goes up to defend trap the other arm to the ground or push it towards his back/butt.

Work a shitload of chin-ups and sit-ups if you can when not at BJJ, not sure of your strength training outside of it.

My strength training has fallen off a bit. I was lifting consistently for about two years before I started BJJ, intermittently when I could only train 2-3 times a week, and then kind of dropped off entirely once I started doing BJJ daily. I was up to solid intermediate strength standards on the Big 3, although my chin ups have always lagged behind. Only place I feel weaker than my training partners is grip strength, but every time I try to train that I end up setting off tendonitis :P I'd be so much stronger if my stupid tendons and ligaments would cooperate! ;-) I need to get back into it. My squat rack has turned into a gi drying rack -- the ultimate shame :-(

[GAP]

My strength training has fallen off a bit. I was lifting consistently for about two years before I started BJJ, intermittently when I could only train 2-3 times a week, and then kind of dropped off entirely once I started doing BJJ daily. I was up to solid intermediate strength standards on the Big 3, although my chin ups have always lagged behind. Only place I feel weaker than my training partners is grip strength, but every time I try to train that I end up setting off tendonitis :P I'd be so much stronger if my stupid tendons and ligaments would cooperate! ;-) I need to get back into it. My squat rack has turned into a gi drying rack -- the ultimate shame :-(

Gi drying rack is better than curl rack.

If lifting will prevent you from training BJJ see if you can buy a few feet length of thick rope. Knot it around the pull up bar of a power rack or a tree or something else above your head. Grab it like you would a Gi and do pull ups daily like that. You'll be ape grip strong in no time with consistency.

[ford.304]

Been thinking about doing that. My other thought is a rice bucket, since that's supposed to work extension as well. A rope over the rafters in my garage *would* solve the "too tall for my squat rack chin up bar"problem I have ;-)

[Cecil Burch]

I've just meant that I've heard of some schools (admittedly, most through reading to much internet) where you have to win/place in a tournament to get your next belt. My schedule just doesn't work for that -- morning practice every day I can make, all day weekends I can't. I don't mean to knock competition/competition oriented schools at all.


Does that happen? Sure. In maybe literally 1 in 500 schools. Not something to really think or talk about.

[ford.304]

Does that happen? Sure. In maybe literally 1 in 500 schools. Not something to really think or talk about.

Well, that's good to know ;-) What I get for trusting the internet...

[Cecil Burch]

Gi drying rack is better than curl rack.

If lifting will prevent you from training BJJ see if you can buy a few feet length of thick rope. Knot it around the pull up bar of a power rack or a tree or something else above your head. Grab it like you would a Gi and do pull ups daily like that. You'll be ape grip strong in no time with consistency.

Be extremely careful with doing supplemental work like that. If you already have a heavy BJJ workload, plus the rest of your life that you deal with, adding heavy grip work can lead to problems. We are already working our grips so much in BJJ constantly, that then we do outside grip work, our hands never have time to recuperate.

I was a fanatic abotu grip strength and I was doing a lot of it. I had the Ironmind grippers in my car so I could do reps while driving. I had worked up to closing the #2 Captains of Crush and was soooooo close to closing the #3, until suddenly I started losing strength and I was at the point the #1 was tough. And my hands just HURT. Badly, 24/7. Forget about BJJ grips - it was almost non-existent. I dropped all the supplemental grip stuff, added a bunch of rehab work, and focused on working the grip within the confines of regular class training. In a couple of months, the pain stopped and my strength level got back to a decent level. Since then I get all my grip work in class, or in normal weight work (heavy deadlifts, cleans, snatches, etc).

[Cecil Burch]

Well, that's good to know ;-) What I get for trusting the internet...

Something to keep in mind is that even in the most competition focused schools, no more than 30-40% of the gym competes. EVER. So if an instructor only promotes with competition wins, he will have a turnover rate like a McDonalds during the lunch rush and will be out of business in no time.

[ford.304]

Be extremely careful with doing supplemental work like that. If you already have a heavy BJJ workload, plus the rest of your life that you deal with, adding heavy grip work can lead to problems. We are already working our grips so much in BJJ constantly, that then we do outside grip work, our hands never have time to recuperate.

I was a fanatic abotu grip strength and I was doing a lot of it. I had the Ironmind grippers in my car so I could do reps while driving. I had worked up to closing the #2 Captains of Crush and was soooooo close to closing the #3, until suddenly I started losing strength and I was at the point the #1 was tough. And my hands just HURT. Badly, 24/7. Forget about BJJ grips - it was almost non-existent. I dropped all the supplemental grip stuff, added a bunch of rehab work, and focused on working the grip within the confines of regular class training. In a couple of months, the pain stopped and my strength level got back to a decent level. Since then I get all my grip work in class, or in normal weight work (heavy deadlifts, cleans, snatches, etc).

The big thing I've read is that a lot of guys do too much crush work and not enough extension, and so get awful tendonitis. My own experience has matched that :( I had to start dead lifting with straps or my elbows would hurt for days.

Man funky rubber band exercises later, and I'm feeling pretty good. We do no-gi two days out of five, so that helps cut down on the wear and tear, too. When I pick up a barbell again I'm going to try to make sure I pre-emptively hit grip extension work even if I don't add any grip-specific stuff, just since I seem predisposed to those kinds of problems.

[GAP]

Something to keep in mind is that even in the most competition focused schools, no more than 30-40% of the gym competes. EVER. So if an instructor only promotes with competition wins, he will have a turnover rate like a McDonalds during the lunch rush and will be out of business in no time.

Good points, I suppose it does depend on the individual and how they deal with the physical stress.

After a few years of gi training I found myself doing deadlifts, rope pull-ups and CoC grippers simultaneously.

I remember my fingers killing though when I first started in the gi.

My knees on the other hand.. heavy doses of squats, running on pavement and wrestling were the recipe for years. Eventually the pot boils over.

[Cecil Burch]

Good points, I suppose it does depend on the individual and how they deal with the physical stress.

After a few years of gi training I found myself doing deadlifts, rope pull-ups and CoC grippers simultaneously.

I remember my fingers killing though when I first started in the gi.

My knees on the other hand.. heavy doses of squats, running on pavement and wrestling were the recipe for years. Eventually the pot boils over.


Yup.

I was a purple belt and was rolling with a regular training partner ( Mike Simpson - who BTW, wrote a terric and funny book partially about his BJJ experiences https://www.amazon.com/Bruises-Divorce-Crazyland-Jiu-jitsu-Journey-ebook/dp/B00G8L2W1K/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1493232595&sr=8-14&keywords=michael+simpson) and tried to pull off a simple scissor sweep. Mike defended by putting a bit of weight on my top knee (not really all that much weight either) and RIPPPPPP, I felt and heard a sound like canvas tearing. Then the pain hit, and my leg was locked in a 3/4 extension position. 80% of the meniscus had torn and parts of it rolled under my kneecap. Surgery and rehab followed.

The knee injury had almost nothing to do with BJJ - it was the previous 28 years of martial arts training (done with a lot of ignorance in how to do it properly and protect my body). We can make a lot of credit card purchases on our body over time, but if we are not careful, eventually we have to pay off the debt.

[45dotACP]

Yup.

I was a purple belt and was rolling with a regular training partner ( Mike Simpson - who BTW, wrote a terric and funny book partially about his BJJ experiences https://www.amazon.com/Bruises-Divorce-Crazyland-Jiu-jitsu-Journey-ebook/dp/B00G8L2W1K/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1493232595&sr=8-14&keywords=michael+simpson) and tried to pull off a simple scissor sweep. Mike defended by putting a bit of weight on my top knee (not really all that much weight either) and RIPPPPPP, I felt and heard a sound like canvas tearing. Then the pain hit, and my leg was locked in a 3/4 extension position. 80% of the meniscus had torn and parts of it rolled under my kneecap. Surgery and rehab followed.

The knee injury had almost nothing to do with BJJ - it was the previous 28 years of martial arts training (done with a lot of ignorance in how to do it properly and protect my body). We can make a lot of credit card purchases on our body over time, but if we are not careful, eventually we have to pay off the debt.
Oh shit...scissor sweep is my go to sweep too. :O

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[cclaxton]

This is something I'm passionate about. I've trained in both in addition to a number of other martial arts so I'll try to give you some good insight. I put a lot of time into Krav Maga before I left it and started training Gracie Barra Jiu Jitsu. I'm going to try and make this as short as possible. Do you want to be able to perform in a fight or altercation or look like you can? That's what it comes down to. You will never get on a mat or in a ring with someone with Krav Maga and go face to face. This is one of the biggest problems with martial arts, too much shyness towards going hands on with someone and actually FIGHTING with an over emphasis on techniques and drills. BJJ is one of the few arts where you're actually going to roll and fight someone, daily. I can't express to you the mental hardness that builds in someone. You're ability to remain calm and manage your adrenaline in a fight and THINK is critical.. BJJ will teach you this on a daily basis as you learn skills and actually roll with someone. Much like shooting the mindset thing is something that a lot of people over look and IMO, from the wisdom of some really great instructors, it is truly one of the most important things. Yes the techniques are important and you will learn many but the ability to think and execute while getting tossed around or choked can't be taught by any drill or form. That being said, BJJ is not the end all be all. If you do it, try to match it with some good standup training and you will become very well rounded. Most good BJJ gyms offer a night of standup/striking training.
You wrote this incorrect statement: " You will never get on a mat or in a ring with someone with Krav Maga and go face to face." That is not true at Worldwide Krav Maga. Our training center includes Fight classes and higher levels train weekly with both one on one and multiple adversaries. We also do actual fighting and including ground fighting (grappling). We also include a lot of weapons disarms and choke defenses. So, while there may be some Krav Maga centers who do not do fighting, we do. We also have a Jiu Jitsu program the complements the Krav program, or the other way around if you like. To me the real value of Jiu Jitsu is gaining dominance over an adversary quickly when on the ground. The real value of Krav Maga is the weapons disarms, choke defenses and close quarter combat while upright. I see them as complementary. Cody

[Cheap Shot]

The scissor sweep hates me.

But much like the unrequited love I've had all my life for Elle McPherson I'm too stupid to give up on it

[Mitch]

The scissor sweep hates me.

But much like the unrequited love I've had all my life for Elle McPherson I'm too stupid to give up on it

Forget about the scissor sweep. It ain't cool now unless you go inverted, berimbolo or bust.


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[GAP]

I abandoned the scissor sweep once I gained more experience. I felt there were higher percentage sweeps that didn't give up as much space. Unless you're completely caught off guard it seems easy to stack the top knee and pass. If I give up space I go to butterfly or scramble and work from there.

Then again, once I transitioned to MMA I only spent about 1/4 of my time in a gi so scrambling was easier to accomplish and my brain said get out from underneath your opponent asap. Guard isn't a place to hang out in a fist fight.

[orionz06]

To me the real value of Jiu Jitsu is gaining dominance over an adversary quickly when on the ground. The real value of Krav Maga is the weapons disarms, choke defenses and close quarter combat while upright. I see them as complementary. Cody

I think this short sells jiu jitsu. While things will end up on the ground it is better stated to say that we want to end up on the ground on our terms, not the opponents. We have more techniques available to us on the ground, that's why we go there. That's not to say that it needs to go there. Much of the horizontal grappling we do in BJJ immediately translates to standing. It's probably more fair to just call it grappling and allow the different types of grappling to define the rules.

[Cecil Burch]

I abandoned the scissor sweep once I gained more experience. I felt there were higher percentage sweeps that didn't give up as much space. Unless you're completely caught off guard it seems easy to stack the top knee and pass. If I give up space I go to butterfly or scramble and work from there.

Then again, once I transitioned to MMA I only spent about 1/4 of my time in a gi so scrambling was easier to accomplish and my brain said get out from underneath your opponent asap. Guard isn't a place to hang out in a fist fight.

I love the scissor sweep. I don't follow your comment about giving up space. Your hips are connected tightly to them and your posture control arm has to stay tight to their upper body which means your body stays close. And opponents should not be able to stack on your knee because of the driving pressure with it.

And no position is a place to hang out in a fist fight - top or bottom.

[Paul Sharp]

I love the scissor sweep. I don't follow your comment about giving up space. Your hips are connected tightly to them and your posture control arm has to stay tight to their upper body which means your body stays close. And opponents should not be able to stack on your knee because of the driving pressure with it.

And no position is a place to hang out in a fist fight - top or bottom.

I'm with Cecil. I'm not following the space comment. I need that connection to my top leg to help make his base light. The deeper I can go under someone, in general, the easier it is to hit my sweep. I bait guys to stack the top leg or try to weave my legs when I'm setting that sweep. It gives me their weight and they bust their base for me.

[GAP]

I love the scissor sweep. I don't follow your comment about giving up space. Your hips are connected tightly to them and your posture control arm has to stay tight to their upper body which means your body stays close. And opponents should not be able to stack on your knee because of the driving pressure with it.

And no position is a place to hang out in a fist fight - top or bottom.

Interesting, do you find this to be the case without a gi as well? I've found a good base and crushing pressure on the top knee defends it pretty well. Not to mention if sparring in MMA and you can strike to the face..

I was speaking in terms of MMA where a top position is certainly a good place to be, not the street.

[Cecil Burch]

Interesting, do you find this to be the case without a gi as well? I've found a good base and crushing pressure on the top knee defends it pretty well. Not to mention if sparring in MMA and you can strike to the face..



Sure. The point of the top knee is to disrupt the other guy's base with outwards pressure. Especially combined with using your hands to control his neck/arms. Ig you are doing what your should be doing on the bottom, the top guy can only hit with one arm, and it is just an arm punch with no weight behind it. Add to that is the fact that as soon as he commits to trying to punch he is no longer able to stay in a locked position to defend against the sweep. The best time to sweep a guy is almost always when he is trying to hit or access a weapon. That is when he is most vulnerable.

[BWT]

So, I've just completed my second night of Gracie Jiu Jitsu and I love it.

Didn't have a Komono in my size so not even a white belt yet.

That being said, I feel comfortable rolling (socially; my wife felt a bit off put but it's coming and she loves it) from a background with football. I'm totally drinking from a fire hose as far as technique, being out of shape, and candidly a bit of football mindset (in my opinion being a larger guy I think the easy temptation is to "muscle it" and I don't want to but that's what I did for years so it's an easy mindset to fall back into.).

I want to slow down the tempo, keep my heart rate in check, and be more clinical in my approach. Comparing 15-20 second plays where the plays over and go back to a huddle to rolling for minutes at a time.

What would you guys recommend on sustainable tempo and for me to make sure I'm emphasizing strongly at this point. I want to make sure I keep a keen focus on what skills I should be focusing on currently versus getting distracted.

Thank you guys and God Bless,

Brandon

[NerdAlert]

What would you guys recommend on sustainable tempo and for me to make sure I'm emphasizing strongly at this point. I want to make sure I keep a keen focus on what skills I should be focusing on currently versus getting distracted.


As a former wrestler and a "bigger stronger guy" (that's relative, 5'9" 200 pounds and deadlifting 415 at the time), it is really tough not to use that strength in rolls. The ability to use strength and scramble can be an asset, but will also wear you out quickly and actively work against you with higher belts. A brown belt once told me to focus on only using your strength when fighting for hand position. Otherwise just focus on technique.

I'm not experienced enough (or honestly big enough) to know but I read something Paul Sharp wrote somewhere once about size and strength being a huge asset to a skilled grappler, especially when you know how and when to apply that size and strength. Something about body locks becoming a near death experience ;) I have been out of the BJJ gym for awhile now but I really miss it and can't wait to get back out there.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cecil Burch]

I recently did a couple of podcasts where I talked about using BJJ in a self-defense context in a weapons based environment. I tend to be impatient when writing because I am not that good at typing and sometimes leave out info (generally out of frustration with how slow I am typing). So on the podcasts I was able to go into some depth that I don't always get to do with the written word.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxF787L8tTo&t=461s

the pertinent discussion starts around the 37:00 minute mark, so you can skip the part where I am wasting time trying to be amusing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wxyd1y3kS2Q&t=27s

You can also download this one and listen to it later on Itunes