Carry rotation. What is it?

[M2CattleCo]

I cruise gun forums most every day and the term 'carry rotation' always comes up but it's never been explained.

Do people rotate carry guns for some reason, or is it more a cadre of pistols that they may carry?

I have several pistols that I carry depending on concealment requirements, carry method or position, ambient conditions (extreme dust or not), activities while carrying, etc.

I carry a pistol that will fit whatever I'm doing that day.

[Lon]

Like you, I have a couple different pistols I carry based on the circumstances of that day/situation. There are many gun carrying people who have a collection of guns and rotate their carry gun on a regular basis because they like to collect and carry many different guns.

I have seen many of these same people post things about putting that new gun into their "carry rotation" after "15 flawless rounds".:mad:

[ReverendMeat]

When I worked at a gun store I would change carry guns every couple of months to whatever new gun (or gun/holster combination) I would be focusing on evaluating. A couple folks I worked with would treat their guns as either fashion accessories or sales tools (and I've done the same on both accounts) but I don't know if I'd call it a "carry rotation."

[JDM]

A mistake.

[Wheeler]

Most of those guys that are discussing 'carry rotation' are actually talking about their fashion accessories. I get carrying a specific gun for a specific purpose, or adding to an EDC, I don't get having a Gun Of The Day.

[JAD]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5586

[RevolverRob]

As Todd (we are forever reduced by his loss) so eloquently pointed out in the link JAD shared, a rotation is just picking your favorite fashion accessory.

In my opinion, it should boil down to 2-3 guns for most people. Gun one - Primary service-sized gun in service-sized caliber. Gun two - Backup gun in compact/sub-compact flavor, maybe in service-sized caliber or maybe smaller. Gun three - Larger caliber primary gun for outdoor/wilderness work in a given area. May be a magnum revolver or full-size, full-power semi-auto (ala 10mm or .45 Super).

Ideally all of those guns would be in the same caliber, share accessories, and have the exact same fire-control mechanisms. And ideally people in hell want ice water. For me, it's a double-stack 9mm as Gun 1, and a 5-shot J-frame as Gun 2. And sometimes Gun 2 is the primary and Gun 1 gets left in the trunk as my "backup".

[BehindBlueI's]

Most of those guys that are discussing 'carry rotation' are actually talking about their fashion accessories.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78o5YE9A0MU

[Nephrology]

I have several flavors of 9mm Glock that I will carry depending on the weather/clothing I am wearing that day. The only guns I carry that do not have "Glock" and "9x19" on them are a 9mm Shield w/o safety (Basically a Glock) and a J frame, because they fill a niche that doublestacks can't.

Other than that, no, I do not rotate carry guns. Sometimes I even feel guilty about the Shield and contemplate swapping it for a Glock 43...

[VolGrad]

If you don't center your whole life around one single gun (and a Clinch Pick) you aren't doing it right. Everyone knows that.

[Kyle Reese]

Like you, I have a couple different pistols I carry based on the circumstances of that day/situation. There are many gun carrying people who have a collection of guns and rotate their carry gun on a regular basis because they like to collect and carry many different guns.

I have seen many of these same people post things about putting that new gun into their "carry rotation" after "15 flawless rounds".:mad:

I carry a Glock 17 Gen 4 as an EDC, but will carry my 9mm Walther PPS when the Glock is too cumbersome for my given task (PT, running, etc). Defensive ammunition used in both firearms is identical, and reliability has been vetted. That's my carry rotation.

I've been fielding questions from folks back home about carry, and the topic of a "rotation" has come up. I've directed them to take a class with John Murphy and spend their training money on practice ammunition instead of getting a Taurus Judge or Canik.

[Ntexwheels]

For 46 years I've been carrying a 1911 pistol. Though Over those years I've carried 3 different pistols, they have all been 1911's. Why someone might ask? Because I know the 1911 backwards, forwards and in my sleep. Having that knowledge and experience has in the real world saved mine or another Military member or Law officer's life on a few occasions.
To my way of thinking and this is just my opinion, one should find the weapon they are comfortable with and train, train, train and then train some more until operating that weapon is part of their nature.

[FNFAN]

Varies between a pair of Glock 19's and a Nano. All have a minimum of 450 rounds of Gold Dot 124+p through them, 150 through each carry magazine with no hiccups. Gaming mags marked separately.

Work is a G22 w/165 HST and a pair of personally owned G22's set up like the work gun.

It's not a fashion statement it's a toolbox.

[Kennydale]

99% of time I carry a G17. there are times, that 1% i will carry my LCP (BUG) as a primary.

[jh9]

If you don't center your whole life around one single gun (and a Clinch Pick) you aren't doing it right. Everyone knows that.

Well, less that and more if you're casually treating a deadly weapon like a fashion accessory you are doing it wrong.

The "carry rotation" crowd is usually a perfect match with the "I accidentally shot myself when reholstering in the parking lot" crowd. I.e. people that think that the gun they've got on them is for funsies. It's not. It can kill people. You don't take it out in Target and take a selfie with it. You don't pet it in the truck because you got bored while the wife/girlfriend/husband/cabana boy is shopping. You put it in the bloody holster and leave it there until you either take it off at home or you shoot some poor bastard with it.

That's not to say you can't enjoy firearms ownership. But people need to keep "fun guns" and "serious guns" in a separate place in their head. Especially in public (where the vast majority of "carrying" actually takes place). The people that feel compelled to change it up "for variety" are the same people that don't get that simple concept and end up on the news after they grace the public with a display of their own thundering incompetence.

The only silver lining is usually they don't hurt anybody but themselves.

[Beat Trash]

I will jump on eat pile that feels a, "Carry Rotation" is a "Show and Tell" more than anything else. These are the types who spend way more time arguing on a gun forum than actually shooting.

Having a selection of guns that you carry depending on the requirements at hand is different in my opinion than having a carry rotation. At work, I am issued a M&P9. I carry an M&P Shield 9mm as a BUG while at work. Off duty, I greatly prefer the Glock 19. Now in gen4 flavor. There are times, no matter how much I want to convince myself otherwise, that the Glock 19 is too large to effectively conceal. Granted those times are rare. I had high hopes for the Glock 43 filling that niche, but it's just too small for my hands. (My wife absconded it.) For those situations, I am currently using the M&P Shield that is also my BUG. I also hang onto a J-Frame S&W 642 as a pocket gun. It usually sees service in the summer when I'm cutting grass and am shirtless.

When I retire if a couple of years, the M&P9 will also be retired. Then I'll go with a duty sized gun/Glock 19 sized gun and a subcompact gun. And I'll still train with each.

But within each size category there is only one type of gun (I may have an identical spare vetted and set aside, but that's different). And to me, this is the difference between having a, "Carry Rotation" and having different guns for different specific needs.

[Odin Bravo One]

I rotate my carry gun from my holster to my nightstand, then back again. I don't pick a different gun based on circumstances or weather or it's Tuesday or I'm in a suit or I'm in shorts and flip flops. The gun I want to carry to a fight is the gun I want to carry. Period.

[RJ]

Mind you I'm new, but as I understand it, 'carry rotation' means what you decide to carry in your Serpa or Uncle Mike's holster that day.

[VolGrad]

Well, less that and more if you're casually treating a deadly weapon like a fashion accessory you are doing it wrong.

Well, I was joking so ......

[Robinson]

I almost always carry a Commander but sometimes I get all crazy and carry a Government model. The Government model actually balances better on the belt for me, not really a lot of difference other than a little weight.

I used to carry revolvers too but stopped that practice a while back.

[Robinson]

I rotate my carry gun from my holster to my nightstand, then back again. I don't pick a different gun based on circumstances or weather or it's Tuesday or I'm in a suit or I'm in shorts and flip flops. The gun I want to carry to a fight is the gun I want to carry. Period.

Wearing flip flops and carrying a gun does not compute to me. But if you do it it's okay. :)


Note: this post was not meant to be taken seriously.

[GardoneVT]

Here's my carry rotation:

Home defense pistol: M9 Commercial
Business casual pistol: M9 Commercial
Pajamas Carry: M9 commercial
Open carry pistol: M9 Commercial.

[Luke]

Here's my carry rotation:

Home defense pistol: M9 Commercial
Business casual pistol: M9 Commercial
Pajamas Carry: M9 commercial
Open carry pistol: M9 Commercial.

That's got kilt in the skreets written all over it man. You should stick to one platform so when it goes down your motor skillz can still do like everything good.

[BehindBlueI's]

Here's my carry rotation:

Home defense pistol: M9 Commercial
Business casual pistol: M9 Commercial
Pajamas Carry: M9 commercial
Open carry pistol: M9 Commercial.

Interested in pics of tactical pajamas. I'm hoping suspenders are involved in some fashion, preferably used as a supplemental LBE.

[jh9]

Well, I was joking so ......

Yeah. Well. :p

[TCinVA]

Sometimes different guns fit different circumstances better. Like if you are going into an NPE where they wand you, a 5" steel 1911 probably isn't the ideal pistol to try and carry in that situation as it's much harder to hide it behind your belt buckle. Etc.

So there's certainly plenty of reason to have multiple weapons to fill niches you've identified...guns that let you have a gun when you otherwise might not.

Most of the time when people are talking about carry rotation, though, they're doing the fashion accessory thing Todd talked about. The difference is that one is a selection based on careful consideration of circumstances while the other is based on mood.

Even then, if someone has the skill to use whatever they are carrying it doesn't bother me any. Generally speaking most do not.

[Wheeler]

I don't usually advertise my blog as it's more of a way for me to formulate thoughts than something I try to spread for dissemination. In this case I think the latest 'post' fits this discussion quite well.

http://wheeler686.blogspot.com/2016/04/a-well-regulated-militia.html

[Joe in PNG]

The "Classic" carry rotation is you change the gun you carry just to be cool; as a fashion accessory, to quote the people above.
Often the people who do rotations change carry position just as often as they change guns. So, Monday it's the Canik in a Serpa OWB strong side; Tuesday is the Judge in a shoulder holster; Wednesday is the Makarov in a pocket; Thursday is the 1911 like object in a SOB; and Friday is the Steyr 1908 carried AIWB.

The bad thing about this is that people who very frequently rotate carry guns, and carry positions tend to never really train with what they have. Sure, they may haul the collection to the range every once and a while, but that's mostly Cargo Cult practice- leisurely loud noises and smoke in the general direction of a target, with maybe about 50 rounds through each gun. So, you get a guy who shoots a lot but never really gets better. More likely they spent the ammo money on a new pistol totally different in every way from the dozen they already own.

[Wheeler]

The "Classic" carry rotation is you change the gun you carry just to be cool; as a fashion accessory, to quote the people above.
Often the people who do rotations change carry position just as often as they change guns. So, Monday it's the Canik in a Serpa OWB strong side; Tuesday is the Judge in a shoulder holster; Wednesday is the Makarov in a pocket; Thursday is the 1911 like object in a SOB; and Friday is the Steyr 1908 carried AIWB.

The bad thing about this is that people who very frequently rotate carry guns, and carry positions tend to never really train with what they have. Sure, they may haul the collection to the range every once and a while, but that's mostly Cargo Cult practice- leisurely loud noises and smoke in the general direction of a target, with maybe about 50 rounds through each gun. So, you get a guy who shoots a lot but never really gets better. More likely they spent the ammo money on a new pistol totally different in every way from the dozen they already own.

I just want to say there's nothing wrong with owning a dozen or more pistols.

[Joe in PNG]

I just want to say there's nothing wrong with owning a dozen or more pistols.

...as long as you can shoot one well.

[23JAZ]

My carry rotation is a Glock 19 everywhere I can. Where I can't, and by can't I mean there is no possible way that required attire will allow me to conceal it. It's a 642 and some speed strips to help get me to where my G19 is whether that be my car or the hidden compartment in my backpack. But no matter what the Glock is never far away.
I will admit my carry rotation was largely influenced by this forum and learning that the best practice is to master a platform before moving on to the next. Most people (and I was one of them before PF) think a gun is a magical talisman that will protect you just by possessing it. Dick and doof at Walmart will never get that their highpoint in a nylon holster doesn't mean shit if it takes 5 seconds to draw it. Not to mention that to them Tuesday's is Taurus day but Saturday and Sunday are SCCY days.

[Wheeler]

...as long as you can shoot one well.

I think I can safely say I've got that covered, maybe more than one. :)

[Savage Hands]

My California CCW allows me to carry 3 handguns by serial number so my primary is a G19, G17 and a G42.

[mtnbkr]

I've carried the same S&W 37-2 as my primary for 11 years. I recently picked up a Glock 19, but am still not as comfortable with it as I am with j-frame. I need to investigate other holsters...

I switch to a 4" 629 in a 120-style holster for woods carry. :)

Chris

[PNWTO]

A 19 as often as possible and soon to be a 43 in the NPE where my coworker is essentially Feinstein 2.0.

Aside from that, a fixed blade,a light, and a SWAT-T will always be on me.

[joshs]

http://pistol-training.com/archives/5586

See also, http://pistol-training.com/archives/70

[1slow]

Carried 1911s .45 with J frame for years, next Glocks with J frame for 23 years, past few years HK P30LEM 9mms with J frame. Once I train up with a system, I carry the same pistols in the same places all the time law and clothing permitting.

I shoot a variety of pistols but primarily train (90%)with my carry gear.

Now I have been shooting HK USP, USPT 45s a bit. Thanks GJM, nyeti. I may end up with them as woods/CCW guns. I really like USP 45 and USPT 45 something about them suits me.

Still carrying P30 and training with it.

[Trooper224]

Carry rotation is when I'm trying to keep up with my wife while she's pin wheeling around the grocery store and I have an arm full of stuff.

[1slow]

LMAO !

[ubervic]

The term "carry rotation" always reminds me of the cool cats on YouTube who own 3-7 handguns, have fired only somewhere up to 100 rounds through any or all of them, and declare them "good to go for EDC."

[VolGrad]

Wait ... You mean modern pistols like Glock or Sig or HK aren't good to go right out of the box?


[emoji851]

[Tamara]

If you don't center your whole life around one single gun (and a Clinch Pick) you aren't doing it right. Everyone knows that.

Still crazy after all these years (http://pistol-training.com/archives/5586#comment-14713). ;)

[BehindBlueI's]

Wait ... You mean modern pistols like Glock or Sig or HK aren't good to go right out of the box?


[emoji851]

Glocks require you to dunk them in a mud puddle and then freeze them in a block of ice prior to dragging behind your pickup truck on the way to throw it out of a helicopter as part of the break in process. At least, according to Youtube.

Sigs require you to bitch about Ron Cohen, bitch how the "balance" is all off with the new fangled slides, and then bitch about whoever put the damned slide stop there must never have seen a human hand in real life. Rainbow finish is good out of the box, only thing that can explain it's popularity.

H&K requires you to call customer service and enter your activation code. This is a set number of punches to your own crotch that spells out "HK hates you" in Morse code, and the CS rep must be able to hear it and laugh at you. Then the CS will activate your gun at their leisure once you lube it with your own tears.

[JHC]

Where does "passion for the gun" (approved) end, and "fashion accessory" (not approved) begin?

[Wheeler]

The term "carry rotation" always reminds me of the cool cats on YouTube who own 3-7 handguns, have fired only somewhere up to 100 rounds through any or all of them, and declare them "good to go for EDC."

Or post pictures on bookface of their 'EDC for the day.'

[Joe in PNG]

Where does "passion for the gun" (approved) end, and "fashion accessory" (not approved) begin?

With the results displayed on your shot timer.
If your times are pretty close between two platforms, it's "passion for the gun".
If you never bought a shot timer because you just got another gun, then you are in "fashion accessory" territory.

[VolGrad]

Still crazy after all these years (http://pistol-training.com/archives/5586#comment-14713). ;)

Damn girl. You went way back on that one. I am not even sure I want to know why/how you remembered that post in the first place. I got a bit scared when I saw what it was but after reading it again I still stand by my words. I think I am mostly still spouting the same message. I might be wrong but at least I'm consistent. :cool:

... and kudos for the musical reference. I always liked Willie's version the best.

[Tamara]

Where does "passion for the gun" (approved) end, and "fashion accessory" (not approved) begin?

I think which is which depends on how many pages of the calendar you turn/cases of ammo you consume? Like, if I had a passion for an AIWB P320 this morning because it was comfortable while I was jogging, and a 25-2 this afternoon because I just got a new crossdraw holster in, and a Luger in a vertical shoulder holster tonight because it would make me feel all secret agent at the Jazz Kitchen...? That would be the latter. But if I said "You know, this M&P9 isn't tripping my trigger any more, but I'm crazy in love with shooting this Glock 37 and I want to see how good I can get with it," and bore down with it for the next six months, that would be the former?

That's just my guess, though. For a definitive answer, you'll have to consult the shadowy approval/disapproval committee. ;)

[ReverendMeat]

Where does "passion for the gun" (approved) end, and "fashion accessory" (not approved) begin?

If you're honest with yourself about your level of ability and you actually care about shooting well, it's the former.

[Odin Bravo One]

...as long as you can shoot one well.

I strive to shoot them all well.

It's a long, frustrating goal. But still working on it.

[RevolverRob]

I think which is which depends on how many pages of the calendar you turn/cases of ammo you consume? Like, if I had a passion for an AIWB P320 this morning because it was comfortable while I was jogging, and a 25-2 this afternoon because I just got a new crossdraw holster in, and a Luger in a vertical shoulder holster tonight because it would make me feel all secret agent at the Jazz Kitchen...?

That sounds like a good day to me. Practical? No. But a good day none the less.



That's just my guess, though. For a definitive answer, you'll have to consult the shadowy approval/disapproval committee. ;)

The approval committee in my head is exceptionally shadowy. They appear to be in league with the OCD Committee. Together those committees want something like every single gun to be identical with identical holsters, magazines perfectly lined up, numbered, in groups of five. Every single round of ammunition would be exactly the same. And everything would be organized to fit into ammunition cans and gun safes with perfect foam cutouts.

Unfortunately for the the OCD-Approval Committee alliance, Nostalgia, Anachronism, and Hipster have formed a super-committee and keep ruining the opportunities for OCD-Approval to win.

Wait...did I just write that all out? Hmm...

[45dotACP]

If I didn't get bored so easily I'd probably be a much better shooter...

my mind alternates between the mindset of "Shooting well is a reward in itself" and "life is too short to be shooting ugly guns."

God help me.

[deputyG23]

Three sizes of .40 Glock are my EDC 95% of the time. Prefer the G22 when my clothing can accommodate it. Smith 442 as a primary 4% and 4" M10 1%.
May go to 17/19/26 if my work cuts off extra .40 ammo for personally owned off duty guns. This is a distinct possibly due to budget cuts.
My P228, Beretta 92 compact, 1911s, and 3"M29 are range guns only.

[RevolverRob]

If I didn't get bored so easily I'd probably be a much better shooter...

my mind alternates between the mindset of "Shooting well is a reward in itself" and "life is too short to be shooting ugly guns."

God help me.

We should hang out sometime, man. I know exactly how you feel.

[Tamara]

Since retiring in 2017 I have pretty much determined what my carry rotation will be. Shield Plus, P365, Hellcat and the CR920 are pretty much what I go to.

Why would you rotate among them, especially since they overlap so much in size and capabilities?

[Latka Gravas]

Why would you rotate among them, especially since they overlap so much in size and capabilities?

Because I can and I like all of them and enjoy carrying and shooting them all. I'm no longer restricted by policy.

[Tamara]

Because I can and I like all of them and enjoy carrying and shooting them all. I'm no longer restricted by policy.

I like shooting different guns, too. (Which is good, I guess, given the line of work I wound up in. :D ) But I do confess being a little puzzled at the idea of enjoying carrying different small plastic strikergats.

Once it’s in the holster, how can you tell you’re carrying the Shield Plus versus the P365?

I’ll confess that my opinions were kinda nudged by the dude who founded this forum (https://pistol-training.com/the-rotation-a-pet-peeve/). But, hey, different strokes for different folks. :cool:

[Latka Gravas]

I like shooting different guns, too. (Which is good, I guess, given the line of work I wound up in. :D ) But I do confess being a little puzzled at the idea of enjoying carrying different small plastic strikergats.

Once it’s in the holster, how can you tell you’re carrying the Shield Plus versus the P365?

I’ll confess that my opinions were kinda nudged by the dude who founded this forum (https://pistol-training.com/the-rotation-a-pet-peeve/). But, hey, different strokes for different folks. :cool:

Actually I can tell the difference. I shoot the gun I carry. I shoot at least once a week with a group of retired guys. So I carry one until I get bored with it and rotate to the next one......

[Robinson]

I like shooting different guns, too. (Which is good, I guess, given the line of work I wound up in. :D ) But I do confess being a little puzzled at the idea of enjoying carrying different small plastic strikergats.

Once it’s in the holster, how can you tell you’re carrying the Shield Plus versus the P365?

I’ll confess that my opinions were kinda nudged by the dude who founded this forum (https://pistol-training.com/the-rotation-a-pet-peeve/). But, hey, different strokes for different folks. :cool:

Hell I have a hard enough time trying to keep a level of proficiency with just my 1911s let alone throwing another type of pistol with different ergos and controls into the mix.

Carry rotations must be some pretty advanced stuff.

[Latka Gravas]

Hell I have a hard enough time trying to keep a level of proficiency with just my 1911s let alone throwing another type of pistol with different ergos and controls into the mix.

Carry rotations must be some pretty advanced stuff.

There is nothing advanced or hard at all about being proficient with a variety of firearms that are of the same general manual of arms. One 10 shot, 3" barrel striker fired gun isn't much different from another 10 shot, 3" barrel. It is very much like you trying to keep up with your 1911's.......no?

[GearFondler]

There is nothing advanced or hard at all about being proficient with a variety of firearms that are of the same general manual of arms. One 10 shot, 3" barrel striker fired gun isn't much different from another 10 shot, 3" barrel. It is very much like you trying to keep up with your 1911's.......no?For me personally, it would come down to whether they all had/didn't have a manual safety, were of a relatively similar trigger pull, and most importantly, all had the same grip angle. My carry pistols are all Glocks with dots and I don't have the skill to just grab a pistol with a different grip angle and immediately find the dot. I can quickly adjust with irons as long as there is sufficient light but that's hardly a given with a self defense weapon and it adds time.

[Tamara]

There is nothing advanced or hard at all about being proficient with a variety of firearms that are of the same general manual of arms.

There’s no practical benefit to switching between them, either, then. To me, it feels like swapping out fire extinguishers every Thursday to match your socks.

[psalms144.1]

For me personally, it would come down to whether they all had/didn't have a manual safety, were of a relatively similar trigger pull, and most importantly, all had the same grip angle. My carry pistols are all Glocks with dots and I don't have the skill to just grab a pistol with a different grip angle and immediately find the dot. I can quickly adjust with irons as long as there is sufficient light but that's hardly a given with a self defense weapon and it adds time.I'm in a similar boat. My P365XL indexes very naturally for me, when I bring it up to my line of sight, the dot just magically appears. My Shield Plus does not index so well, when using irons, the front "points" high on presentation, when using the optic, the dot rarely appears in the window without changing my grip/stance, etc. All of my Glocks do the same, unless I use the add on beavertail, cut down about halfway.

Because of this, I just run the XL as my pretty much every day carry, and all the others are just range toys I shoot occasionally.

[HCM]

There is nothing advanced or hard at all about being proficient with a variety of firearms that are of the same general manual of arms. One 10 shot, 3" barrel striker fired gun isn't much different from another 10 shot, 3" barrel. It is very much like you trying to keep up with your 1911's.......no?

I get that you are retired living a low risk lifestyle and it’s fun for you. There is nothing wrong with that but at best it’s a form of acceptance of low standards and at worst it’s an affectation.

With 25 years in LE and 15 as an LE instructor most of what passed for “proficiency” in LE firearms is some sorry bull shit even if they are better than the general public shooting up the walls and ceilings at their local indoor range.

Real proficiency requires work and few people have the time to put in real work on more than one platform.

I have working guns (currently RDS equipped sig striker pistols and AR pattern long guns) with which I try to achieve and maintain real proficiency (far in excess of what my agency requires) and I have everything else which I shoot for fun. It’s ok to to shoot for fun but you need to be honest about what it is and is not.

[Latka Gravas]

There’s no practical benefit to switching between them, either, then. To me, it feels like swapping out fire extinguishers every Thursday to match your socks.

There are reasons I remain capable with a variety of firearms. My reasons are mine. As one trainer puts it: "I do me and you do you".

[Latka Gravas]

I get that you are retired living a low risk lifestyle and it’s fun for you. There is nothing wrong with that but at best it’s a form of acceptance of low standards and at worst it’s an affectation.

With 25 years in LE and 15 as an LE instructor most of what passed for “proficiency” in LE firearms is some sorry bull shit even if they are better than the general public shooting up the walls and ceilings at their local indoor range.

Real proficiency requires work and few people have the time to put in real work on more than one platform.

I have working guns (currently RDS equipped sig striker pistols and AR pattern long guns) with which I try to achieve and maintain real proficiency (far in excess of what my agency requires) and I have everything else which I shoot for fun. It’s ok to to shoot for fun but you need to be honest about what it is and is not.

Define "real proficiency".

[GearFondler]

I'm in a similar boat. My P365XL indexes very naturally for me, when I bring it up to my line of sight, the dot just magically appears. My Shield Plus does not index so well, when using irons, the front "points" high on presentation, when using the optic, the dot rarely appears in the window without changing my grip/stance, etc. All of my Glocks do the same, unless I use the add on beavertail, cut down about halfway.

Because of this, I just run the XL as my pretty much every day carry, and all the others are just range toys I shoot occasionally.Contrary to your experience of choosing a pistol that works for you, Glocks point high for my "natural" index. I made the decision to go with Glocks for all the usual reasons, despite the index, but it required me to train my index to the Glock through a lot of dry work. And I have to maintain the dry work to keep myself in tune with the Glocks. It now feels entirely natural to me but I would slowly revert to a 1911 index if I didn't practice dry. For this reason alone I stick to only Glocks and if I ever make a switch the Glocks will stop being carried.
The P365 family with its continually expanding range of configurations is a very tempting platform to build a comprehensive group of self defense pistols around but the grip angle is so extreme from a Glock's that I would have to start from scratch with everything. And completely dump the Glocks in the process. It's still kind of tempting except for the shit load of money required as well as the shit load of invested money lost.

[Clusterfrack]

Define "real proficiency".

Here’s the Karl Rehn chart
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221218/a0d2d6ce081b756d20a7b55deff010de.jpg


Here’s a real life example:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22844-Competition-gets-you-killed-on-the-streets&p=1382732#post1382732

[Up1911Fan]

Define "real proficiency".

I would say at least hat pin times on the FAST test, passing or at least being really close to Defoor's hat test, shooting 90 or above on a B8 at 25 yards, keeping all 10 in the black on The Test ( hopefully with a couple seconds to spare), 270+/300 on the Vickers 300.

I could go on, but I think these are all good measures of competency with your chosen carry gun. There are a bunch of guys on here who can shoot to these standards pretty easily with their chosen handgun. I'm guessing a large percentage of them couldn't do that using a different gun every couple weeks.

[Latka Gravas]

Here’s the Karl Rehn chart
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221218/a0d2d6ce081b756d20a7b55deff010de.jpg


Here’s a real life example:
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?22844-Competition-gets-you-killed-on-the-streets&p=1382732#post1382732

Based on this chart, I maintain "Performance sufficient to strongly suggest automaticity" with the firearms I carry for self defense.

[Tamara]

Define "real proficiency".

You are not equally proficient with all of them. So sometimes you are carrying one with which you are less proficient because…?

[Latka Gravas]

[QUOTE=Tamara;1429047]You are not equally proficient with all of them.

Deleted. You are not worth the time........

[Up1911Fan]

Based on this chart, I maintain "Performance sufficient to strongly suggest automaticity" with the firearms I carry for self defense.

So unless I'm reading that chart wrong, your telling me you are consistently shooting 2 second Bill Drills and 5 second FAST Test's with all 4 of those small guns.............?

[WobblyPossum]

So unless I'm reading that chart wrong, your telling me you are consistently shooting 2 second Bill Drills and 5 second FAST Test's with all 4 of those small guns.............?

The sections are ranges of performance. There are other times and scores listed in that bracket such as 7s FAST and 3 sec Bill.

[Up1911Fan]

The sections are ranges of performance. There are other times and scores listed in that bracket such as 7s FAST and 3 sec Bill.

Ok, so 2-3 and 5-7. That's actually a huge performance gap, but same question still applies.

[JCN]

Carry rotations must be some pretty advanced stuff.

Or super basic. If it takes you 0.6 extra seconds to fight the dot and place it on target... doesn't really matter what grip angle because you're fishing anyway.

Tamara you're seeing it only for practicality. There's a good bit of fun and enjoyment in the firearms purchasing otherwise we would all only own one Glock (okay, two Glocks) and be done with it.

At one point I had 12 cars at once. It was fun to drive different ones on different days. Any of them would have gotten me from point A to point B, but it's fun sometimes to shake it up. Right Latka Gravas ?

If it helps him motivate and practice with his buddies, that's great and I'm all for it.

Now on the flip side...


There is nothing advanced or hard at all about being proficient with a variety of firearms that are of the same general manual of arms. One 10 shot, 3" barrel striker fired gun isn't much different from another 10 shot, 3" barrel. It is very much like you trying to keep up with your 1911's.......no?

"Proficient" is a very loaded word here.

I would consider myself a "pretty good" shooter.

Some other people randomly in person or on the internet have declared themselves "very good" shooters.



Define "real proficiency".

What Clusterfrack posted roughly corresponds to the four stages of competence.

98603

I'm unconsciously competent but I'm not the best shooter in the world. So I'm "pretty good" in my mind.

Someone may be consciously incompetent (see the Rehn chart he posted for objective examples) but have no context of performance so they think they're proficient...



Tamara I'm a good enough shooter that I could utilize a "carry rotation" and still be a better shot than someone who only carries one gun but hasn't achieved much proficiency. If they told me to stick with one gun, I'd tell them that they should practice more. :)

That being said, I usually carry one of two guns. But I'll practice and enjoy a whole bunch at the range in the off season. I'll generally only compete with one gun because I have to perform at such high levels there that I don't want to take the performance decrement.

Carry is a performance compromise for most people. Otherwise I'd carry a race gun in a drop holster to the grocery store.



Latka Gravas I take about a 10% performance drop with a different platform. The recoil impulse and the grip angle are different enough to slow me down from peak performance. Is my 90% "good enough?" Maybe. Maybe not. It's a personal decision, but I have my eyes open that there really is a performance decrement unless the level of performance is so low that it truly doesn't matter.






The P365 family with its continually expanding range of configurations is a very tempting platform to build a comprehensive group of self defense pistols around but the grip angle is so extreme from a Glock's that I would have to start from scratch with everything. And completely dump the Glocks in the process. It's still kind of tempting except for the shit load of money required as well as the shit load of invested money lost.

You could just slowly humpectomy them until they're all the same angle.... :D

[Bergeron]

No doubt, I struggle with this, and it's mainly because I formed an emotional bond with inanimate objects.

I started out with a USP and Single Six, and if I could go back in time, and I'd tell myself to not even ever buy any other pistols- just entirely keep my pistol shooting around those two.

Once I turned 21 and could carry, I was carrying both the USP and 1911s, and I had added a .22 S&W semi-auto to the pack. With the exception of the rimfire Ruger, I justified it to myself that the safeties and trigger actions were the same-or similar enough.

Once all the guns that ever really meant anything to me were gone, I chose to go back to a 1911, and with much thanks to the forum here, had three of the same one. The eventual rise of the double-stack RDS comped 9mm, again thanks to the forum, was just too convincing, so I traded off two of the 1911s to get into a pair of the dolled-up G19s with thumb safeties and a .22 conversion- and sure enough, right- for a little bit less weight, and a little thicker gun- it objectively requires less mental focus on grip, trigger, and sights to get more, faster, better hits- and the lethality difference is small enough be a joke instead of anything real.

But I still alternate carrying the Glocks and the 1911- and I even went so far as to buy another 1911. For entirely irrational reasons, I don't want to give up the 1911s. I alternate bringing the Glocks and the 1911 to matches, and classes, and standing duty in the house, and for recreational dry-fire, and for carrying- and I would be a better shot defending myself if I kept anything serious only to the Glocks, and only used the 1911s recreationally.

But if worst came to worst and I could only have one centerfire pistol, it'll be that 1911 because it feels to me like the only pistol in my life that can ever be more than a commodity- and that's a stupid, heart over brain perspective.

I was midway into building a third Glock when my sister had need of a defensive pistol, so I just gave the one I was having built up to her. I don't think I'll get a third Glock. I could end up with a third 1911 and maybe even also with a Sig P365X- having moved back far down south where the heat is so much- vanishing something small under lighter clothes is occasionally appealing.

I will want to have and develop skill with whatever the "modern" consensus develops, and I feel like that was the USP and is now the Glocks, and will eventually be something else in the future- but there's level of "living with" and being able to defend myself with my old shit that I can't give up for feeling reasons rather than thinking reasons.

[Latka Gravas]

The sections are ranges of performance. There are other times and scores listed in that bracket such as 7s FAST and 3 sec Bill.

You are correct. The chart does in fact give a range of proficiency. It also lists classifications for shooting games. IDPA for example, penalizes a shooter for conducting an emergency reload if there is a single round left in the magazine.

[JCN]

Bergeron I did humpectomies on my Glocks and arched mainspring housings on the 1911s and the gap between them on angle is much closer now. Something to consider.

[Latka Gravas]

Or super basic. If it takes you 0.6 extra seconds to fight the dot and place it on target... doesn't really matter what grip angle because you're fishing anyway.

Tamara you're seeing it only for practicality. There's a good bit of fun and enjoyment in the firearms purchasing otherwise we would all only own one Glock (okay, two Glocks) and be done with it.

At one point I had 12 cars at once. It was fun to drive different ones on different days. Any of them would have gotten me from point A to point B, but it's fun sometimes to shake it up. Right Latka Gravas ?

If it helps him motivate and practice with his buddies, that's great and I'm all for it.

Now on the flip side...



"Proficient" is a very loaded word here.

I would consider myself a "pretty good" shooter.

Some other people randomly in person or on the internet have declared themselves "very good" shooters.




What Clusterfrack posted roughly corresponds to the four stages of competence.

98603

I'm unconsciously competent but I'm not the best shooter in the world. So I'm "pretty good" in my mind.

Someone may be consciously incompetent (see the Rehn chart he posted for objective examples) but have no context of performance so they think they're proficient...



Tamara I'm a good enough shooter that I could utilize a "carry rotation" and still be a better shot than someone who only carries one gun but hasn't achieved much proficiency. If they told me to stick with one gun, I'd tell them that they should practice more. :)

That being said, I usually carry one of two guns. But I'll practice and enjoy a whole bunch at the range in the off season. I'll generally only compete with one gun because I have to perform at such high levels there that I don't want to take the performance decrement.

Carry is a performance compromise for most people. Otherwise I'd carry a race gun in a drop holster to the grocery store.



Latka Gravas I take about a 10% performance drop with a different platform. The recoil impulse and the grip angle are different enough to slow me down from peak performance. Is my 90% "good enough?" Maybe. Maybe not. It's a personal decision, but I have my eyes open that there really is a performance decrement unless the level of performance is so low that it truly doesn't matter.







You could just slowly humpectomy them until they're all the same angle.... :D

You make some very valid points!! I share your "unconsciously competent" and consider myself proficient. Claiming what I can do here serves no point. No point because there is no way to verify what I say. I'm good with that because I know what I am capable of doing.

[Bergeron]

JCN- I love the work people do with those things- and maybe it's because I'm not good enough, but I've never noticed a gripping or index difference between the USP and the 1911s and the Glocks.

I read over and over again about skilled shooters and their index differences between 1911s and Glocks, and I feel lacking in some regards, because it just never happens to me. It's similar to the folks unintentionally decocking their USPs. It never happened to me, but it happened to the internet so much, that although I never did it myself, I that this thought of using a non-decock safety lever was never far from my mind- but I never had it happen. I did manage break a firing pin in dry fire, so at least I got to have direct participation in one piece of Internet gun lore. lol.

I'm pretty sure that I have just one single index and at least for those three designs, it gets the sights to the target.

If I'm just gripping the gun and not working on a target, I have not quite as much tension/friction/force up against the web of my hand with the Glocks as with the 1911s. At the current stage of my shooting abilities, as I shoot the Glocks, my trigger finger speed is not quite as fast as the dot bounces and returns, and is my limiting factor in speed under time pressure. That "window" discussion the forum has going is helping that out, though.

As sexy as flat-backstrapped Glocks look, and oh boy do they ever, I've got other work to put in before differences in the grip shape become the limiting factors to my performance with the guns.

I think I've got to be a better overall shooter before the Glock/1911 grip differences manifests itself into something worth the time and money to correct.

[Latka Gravas]

Bergeron I did humpectomies on my Glocks and arched mainspring housings on the 1911s and the gap between them on angle is much closer now. Something to consider.

The Shadow Systems really got my attention. Their approach to the interchangeable backstraps changes the actual grip angle. Suddenly the "glock" pointed more like the 1911 grip angle. The Shadow Systems optic mounting system is also excellent as it allows for direct mounting of the most common optics.

[Tamara]

Deleted. You are not worth the time........

Sorry, I was just trying to understand where you were coming from.

[GJM]

I think it is more complicated than just carry the same gun.

If tonight is your time to, as Jeff Cooper said, "meet the elephant," would you rather be the guy pocket carrying the J frame you dry fire every day and just attended Revolver round up with, or be carrying the Glock 19 and a spare mag you shoot an idpa match with once a quarter.

I compete with a 2011 Open gun with a frame mounted optic in an Everglades competition holster, and carry a Glock 19 or 365 XL/Macro with a slide mounted optic in an AIWB George. The Open gun makes me more proficient with the 19 and 365, not less proficient.

[Tamara]

Tamara you're seeing it only for practicality. There's a good bit of fun and enjoyment in the firearms purchasing otherwise we would all only own one Glock ...

Dude, you're talking to someone who owns guns that haven't had factory ammunition loaded for them since WWII. I've probably owned, no exaggeration, at least five or six hundred firearms over the last thirty-some years. I've got some pretty weird guns.

I like guns. I understand liking guns. It's literally my job to like guns.

But rotating carry guns from day to day seems weird to me (https://pistol-training.com/the-rotation/), like rotating different tourniquets. "Today's feeling like a SOF-T Wide kind of day..."

That's the part I'm trying to understand.

Like, I enjoy shooting my Luger, right? But I'm not shopping for Luger holsters.

[JCN]

I think I've got to be a better overall shooter before the Glock/1911 grip differences manifests itself into something worth the time and money to correct.

I think that's totally fair. It only comes into play when trying to push the limits of physics. Like a 1 second draw to 10 yard head box.

For something like a 7 yard alpha it doesn't matter because if you aim center alpha you'll point lower alpha with a 1911 and upper alpha with a Glock. If you are correcting index on presentation then it won't matter at all. It's really only at the most extreme performance limit that it matters.


I like guns. I understand liking guns. It's literally my job to like guns.

But rotating carry guns from day to day seems weird to me (https://pistol-training.com/the-rotation/), like rotating different tourniquets. "Today's feeling like a SOF-T Wide kind of day..."

That's the part I'm trying to understand.

Maybe it's because you own random stuff that you don't really understand... and maybe you're really not trying to understand.

Are you really trying to understand? Because it doesn't seem like it.

You're like the person who has three Ferraris in the garage and you can't understand why the pleb with a Honda Civic would want to sometimes drive his wife's van.

Are you really trying to understand what motivates an "average" gun owner or are you just looking to pee on someone who obviously thinks differently?

I could tell my wife "who cares what shoes you wear one day versus the other, they all look the same to me and I don't get it... they all carry you in to work?"

They're functional AND express some personality, and that's important to some people.

Shoes are tools for me, but they're not for some other people. I can respect that and understand that it means something to them even if it doesn't mean anything to me.

What you're really wanting is for someone to explain it in a way that makes it mean something to YOU, it seems. That's a very different thing.



The Shadow Systems really got my attention. Their approach to the interchangeable backstraps changes the actual grip angle. Suddenly the "glock" pointed more like the 1911 grip angle. The Shadow Systems optic mounting system is also excellent as it allows for direct mounting of the most common optics.

I have one. I'm sensitive to even minute changes in index. Like even super minute differences. The Shadow Systems doesn't quite point like a CZ to me. By custom crafting the angle of the Glock backstrap myself, I get exactly the index I'm looking for.

I'll take your word for your proficiency and in the end it really doesn't matter. If you feel comfortable enough carrying it, who am I to say that it's not good enough?

I'm just glad you're enjoying firearms and practicing with your buddies.

Sounds like you might dabble in IDPA as well, that'd be a great opportunity to shake out some BUGs.

[TheNewbie]

For some people carry rotations make sense, for others they don’t.


The overwhelming majority of people would be best served by having 1-3 different guns, and each for a specific purposes, not based off feeling in the emotional sense.


For those who are not average, then switching between different platforms for whatever reason is a non issue.



I’m a more proficient weightlifter than most people, and I’m certainly a better weightlifter than shooter. Yet I stick with a few basic exercises because they keep me strong, in shape, proficient, and in the gym. Some people “need” variety to keep them in the gym, but that is likely a small segment of the population, and most would be best served with about 4-8 total exercises.

For some lifters, adding in new exercises is crucial to reach their full potential. Plus they’ve reached their “natural” limits, so they must try new things to grow and push new limits. Guys like JCN and GJM are above and beyond most of us in their skill set with a gun, so their methods make total sense for them, and those like them.


While I understand the desire to rotate for fun, I would not recommend it to most. 1-3 basic guns, a few basic drills, and mastering them, will lead one to be more proficient than most shooters out there.


However, live and let live, and if people are going to rotate, I give them total respect for practicing with each weapon and dedicating time to each weapon.

[Sig_Fiend]

This isn't directed at anyone, more directed at this perpetual subject every gun forum will be subject to forever.

Boring is a virtue when it comes to carry guns. Situation should dictate the choice, and entertainment shouldn't even be a factor. Just my opinion, and talking purely about carry/defensive guns.

When this subject comes up, the first thought most of us probably have is about someone with more money than sense looking at several rigs in their closet and saying, "I feel like this one today!"
It's a stereotypical character prevalent on most forums that aren't PF. In situations like that, such a person would show what many of us would consider questionable judgment and decision-making skills.

I think it's important to be precise in what exact criteria you use when choosing a a carry gun for the given situation. For me it's usually dependent on something like:


The environment I'll be in
The attire I'll be wearing
Potential threat level for that environment


In lieu of objective criteria like the above, I'd wonder what other compromises a person might be making for their situation by adopting a more subjective and feeling-based approach?

[GearFondler]

Like, I enjoy shooting my Luger, right? But I'm not shopping for Luger holsters.

I feel like you're missing out...
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221218/1e23d48277fd0944aec4a896c60a4855.jpg

[HCM]

Define "real proficiency".

Consistent, on demand performance at the “strongly suggests automaticity level on the Rehn chart but that is not the real answer.

The real answer is consistently as good as possible.

Constantly swapping equipment gives up some level of automaticity and performance no matter how good you are.

Giving up performance in a defensive or duty situation without reason is foolish and if others depend on you, immoral.

[HCM]

For some people carry rotations make sense, for others they don’t.


The overwhelming majority of people would be best served by having 1-3 different guns, and each for a specific purposes, not based off feeling in the emotional sense.


For those who are not average, then switching between different platforms for whatever reason is a non issue.



I’m a more proficient weightlifter than most people, and I’m certainly a better weightlifter than shooter. Yet I stick with a few basic exercises because they keep me strong, in shape, proficient, and in the gym. Some people “need” variety to keep them in the gym, but that is likely a small segment of the population, and most would be best served with about 4-8 total exercises.

For some lifters, adding in new exercises is crucial to reach their full potential. Plus they’ve reached their “natural” limits, so they must try new things to grow and push new limits. Guys like JCN and GJM are above and beyond most of us in their skill set with a gun, so their methods make total sense for them, and those like them.


While I understand the desire to rotate for fun, I would not recommend it to most. 1-3 basic guns, a few basic drills, and mastering them, will lead one to be more proficient than most shooters out there.


However, live and let live, and if people are going to rotate, I give them total respect for practicing with each weapon and dedicating time to each weapon.

“It works for me l” works if it’s just you.

If you have team mates, partners or the public depending on you then it doesn’t. For example, we will occasionally get an officer who wants to walk around without around chambered on duty.

There in ability to respond with deadly force is not just a potential threat to themselves, but a potential threat to their partners, and the public that they are responsible for protecting. In that context, that choice to carry chamber empty, is selfish and immoral.

[TheNewbie]

“It works for me l” works if it’s just you.

If you have team mates, partners or the public depending on you then it doesn’t. For example, we will occasionally get an officer who wants to walk around without around chambered on duty.

There in ability to respond with deadly force is not just a potential threat to themselves, but a potential threat to their partners, and the public that they are responsible for protecting. In that context, that choice to carry chamber empty, is selfish and immoral.



I totally agree with your post.

[Latka Gravas]

Consistent, on demand performance at the “strongly suggests automaticity level on the Rehn chart but that is not the real answer.

The real answer is consistently as good as possible.

Constantly swapping equipment gives up some level of automaticity and performance no matter how good you are.

Giving up performance in a defensive or duty situation without reason is foolish and if others depend on you, immoral.


It is good you know your limitations.

[UNM1136]

Sooo little popcorn.

pat

[UNM1136]

Sooo many trolls...

pat

[Robert Mitchum]

Carry rotations ... think she was a stripper from the 70"s



https://youtu.be/_WClvK15gkk

[JCN]

It is good you know your limitations.

Boooooo…… unlike.

I’m proud as an American that there are people like HCM dedicated and looking out for my safety.

[DC_P]

Tamara you're seeing it only for practicality. There's a good bit of fun and enjoyment in the firearms purchasing otherwise we would all only own one Glock (okay, two Glocks) and be done with it.

At one point I had 12 cars at once. It was fun to drive different ones on different days. Any of them would have gotten me from point A to point B, but it's fun sometimes to shake it up?


The point of owning 12 cars (I'm jealous) is fun and enjoyment. The point of carrying a weapon is defending life. Big difference. Owning and shooting a wide range of guns is undoubtedly fun, but carrying the one you are most effective with is probably a better idea. Just my opinion - maybe I am wrong.


IDPA for example, penalizes a shooter for conducting an emergency reload if there is a single round left in the magazine.

If there is a round in the magazine, technically it is not an emergency reload.

[HCM]

The point of owning 12 cars (I'm jealous) is fun and enjoyment. The point of carrying a weapon is defending life. Big difference. Owning and shooting a wide range of guns is undoubtedly fun, but carrying the one you are most effective with is probably a better idea. Just my opinion - maybe I am wrong.




If there is a round in the magazine it is not an emergency reload.

Re: your first point - I agree. It doesn’t mean you can’t shoot other stuff for fun, comparison etc

Different people and organizations use different terms I think he’s referencing dropping the magazine to the ground versus a reload with retention, but like USPSA, IDPA is a game not training. I shoot both but that’s another one of those be honest about what they are, and are not things.

[Latka Gravas]

The point of owning 12 cars (I'm jealous) is fun and enjoyment. The point of carrying a weapon is defending life. Big difference. Owning and shooting a wide range of guns is undoubtedly fun, but carrying the one you are most effective with is probably a better idea. Just my opinion - maybe I am wrong.



If there is a round in the magazine, technically it is not an emergency reload.

By the standards of playing games-no it is not an emergency reload. IDPA is a game and is hardly life and death encounter.

[JCN]

The point of owning 12 cars (I'm jealous) is fun and enjoyment. The point of carrying a weapon is defending life. Big difference. Owning and shooting a wide range of guns is undoubtedly fun, but carrying the one you are most effective with is probably a better idea. Just my opinion - maybe I am wrong.


This is going to be a little wordy and I'll try and be brief.

1. Driver skill and training are likely to have more impact on your family safety than firearms (for civilians).
2. Shooter skill and situational training are likely to have more impact on your shooting success than the particular firearm you carry.

1. People don't train driving very much.
2. People don't train to a very high handgun standard.

Saying "the point of carrying a weapon is defending life" is one thing... but then why do a lot of people who say that... only achieve mediocre handgun proficiency standards?

The objective performance achieved is more important than if you're at your peak with equipment.



I believe it should say "the point of training with weapons is to defend lives." The carrying / equipment is a very minor part of it.


So either you take it seriously and train seriously to a high standard or it's a talisman with some backup capability and who cares if it's pink, purpled, speckled or a bone stock Glock... none of them are particularly good if the shooting ability isn't particularly good.

[Screwball]

The point of owning 12 cars (I'm jealous) is fun and enjoyment. The point of carrying a weapon is defending life. Big difference. Owning and shooting a wide range of guns is undoubtedly fun, but carrying the one you are most effective with is probably a better idea. Just my opinion - maybe I am wrong.

My Glock 34 is probably one of the best guns I shoot… being I prefer the full size grip. Yet, work isn’t going to let me carry that instead of my issued 19. Sometimes, things are out of our hands.

99% of the time off duty, I carry my 9mm J-frame. People usually say that isn’t enough. I practice with it religiously and have zero hesitation using it in the defense of myself or others. If it’s really bad, hopefully I can get to/start off at my truck… which has a suppressed AR pistol locked inside.

Biggest reason why I carry it, it is always on me and will rarely give me a reason to not carry it. 16 ounces loaded is light. I could easily put my 34 in a holster and carry it… and if I feel like I should, I would… but everyday carry is going to come down to it digging into me/weighing me down. Eventually, everyone will get to the point where they say the hell with it… and leave the gun in the truck or at home.

That being said, it does piss me off seeing people argue what someone else SHOULD carry. Happens quiet a lot when 9mm J-frame conversions are discussed and people with them try to answer questions. I tend to always get, “you should sell it and buy X, Y or Z.” How about if I pay for my gear and ammo, I will carry what I want? Unless someone wants to supply guns, accessories, holsters and ammo for me… I think I’ll make my own decisions on what I carry. More so with some random people on the internet that I have zero knowledge of.

That being said, it is an Internet forum. I get it. Idea is for people to discuss s***. But big difference saying “I’m not a huge fan of X because of Y,” than “X sucks, Y is where it is at… and if you can’t see that, you are an idiot.” You tend to see more of the later than the former.

No directed at anyone specific… just my annoyance with some of these topics.

[HCM]

My Glock 34 is probably one of the best guns I shoot… being I prefer the full size grip. Yet, work isn’t going to let me carry that instead of my issued 19. Sometimes, things are out of our hands.

99% of the time off duty, I carry my 9mm J-frame. People usually say that isn’t enough. I practice with it religiously and have zero hesitation using it in the defense of myself or others. If it’s really bad, hopefully I can get to/start off at my truck… which has a suppressed AR pistol locked inside.

Biggest reason why I carry it, it is always on me and will rarely give me a reason to not carry it. 16 ounces loaded is light. I could easily put my 34 in a holster and carry it… and if I feel like I should, I would… but everyday carry is going to come down to it digging into me/weighing me down. Eventually, everyone will get to the point where they say the hell with it… and leave the gun in the truck or at home.

That being said, it does piss me off seeing people argue what someone else SHOULD carry. Happens quiet a lot when 9mm J-frame conversions are discussed and people with them try to answer questions. I tend to always get, “you should sell it and buy X, Y or Z.” How about if I pay for my gear and ammo, I will carry what I want? Unless someone wants to supply guns, accessories, holsters and ammo for me… I think I’ll make my own decisions on what I carry. More so with some random people on the internet that I have zero knowledge of.

That being said, it is an Internet forum. I get it. Idea is for people to discuss s***. But big difference saying “I’m not a huge fan of X because of Y,” than “X sucks, Y is where it is at… and if you can’t see that, you are an idiot.” You tend to see more of the later than the former.

No directed at anyone specific… just my annoyance with some of these topics.

Having a bit of experience carrying a mandated gun, I’m reminded of a discussion by Kyle Defoor re: some of his MIL/GOV clients being restricted to issued gear. In particular, they were discussing the ACOGs they had vs the LPVOs they wanted. His first point was that early in the GWOT he didn’t have cool gear like LPVOs because they didn’t exist yet. He went on to say that while an ACOG might not be his first choice today, he could train you to be “pretty deadly” with an ACOG if you put in the work.

Consistency in training and gear resulting in competence is more important than the gear itself.


PS: also based on experience- defensive gun use tends to be a come as you are event. Plan accordingly. Getting the opportunity to access a long gun locked in a vehicle is unlikely and not a realistic contingency plan. If there is a requirement for a long gun, it would need to be some type of bag gun that was on one’s person or within arms reach. Even in LE duty situations if the long gun is not upfront in the vehicle within arms reach and/or accessed prior to contact it’s not a factor.

[JCN]

I think BBI found that pocket revolvers were 100% effective in his self defense studies because of the element of surprise. It’s why I carry one most of the time weak hand pocket.

I’ll carry an AIWB semi in addition when going to the mall and things.

[Jim Watson]

I have wondered about that "rotation" business.
When you change guns, do you have a refamiliarization session?

[JAD]

I have wondered about that "rotation" business.
When you change guns, do you have a refamiliarization session?

I do, though my ‘rotation’ is months or years per cycle. When my fancy turns from one gun to another, as I’m about to do having gotten a P30 slide with an optic cut, I take it to the range first at least once. If I don’t shoot to an acceptable level with it I will either give it another try before carrying or just bail out.

[UNM1136]

Your shit. Shit as you will.

You have your mind made up, so our opinions really don't matter.

P,ease, let's keep feeding the trolls.

pat

[Tamara]

I do, though my ‘rotation’ is months or years per cycle. When my fancy turns from one gun to another, as I’m about to do having gotten a P30 slide with an optic cut, I take it to the range first at least once. If I don’t shoot to an acceptable level with it I will either give it another try before carrying or just bail out.

I don’t know that doing a deep dive on a different…god, I hate the word “platform”…every year or two is a rotation. I mean, Todd hated and mocked the very concept of a “carry rotation” and he did that. It was someone here at the forum, although I can’t remember who, that I copied the idea of switching to a different gun every few years if you’d felt like you’d started to plateau, skills-wise, as a way of focusing on the basics.

On the other hand, carrying the Blastomatic 2000 this week because you carried the Sheepdog MkIV last week and you’re bored with it now? That’s a rotation.

Elsewhere, I wrote “It's the gun forum guys who report that they've just bought the latest gun getting all the magazine ink, the P365 or the Hellcat or the Stack-A-Toe or the PDP or whatever, and they breathlessly report about their first range trip with it and how it performed flawlessly and now they'll be "adding it to The Rotation" that grind me to a halt.”

[Tamara]

Your shit. Shit as you will.

You have your mind made up, so our opinions really don't matter.

P,ease, let's keep feeding the trolls.

pat

Ain’t nobody making you read this thread, you know. :p ;)

[Totem Polar]

With the caveat that nobody should put much stock into what I say on the topic, my take: for me, it’s about the right tool for the environment. My “carry rotation” pretty much has 3 speeds: Glock, revolver, edged. Depends where I am.

[Rex G]

Based upon what I have seen, in some gun and knife forums, there are folks who feel a need to carry different guns/knives, on different days, in order to be fair to each gun/knife, as if inanimate objects can be jealous/envious. While I see nothing wrong with collecting, I believe that it is strategically and tactically errant to carry a collection of handguns with disparate shapes/sizes/controls, by “rotating” through each piece.

One reason I cannot warm-up to the AR/M4 system, is because weapon is ready to fire when the “Dingus” is “Down,” and on-safe when the selector is oriented toward the target/opponent/enemy. (This assumes semi-auto weapons.) In the Nineties, I drilled, diligently, with Third-Generation S&W pistols, which are on-safe when the safety lever, aka Dingus, is pointed downward, and set to FIRE, when the lever is oriented toward the target/opponent/enemy. Later, for a number of years, I drilled with PD-issued/mandated X26 and X2 Tasers, with safety levers that operated in the same manner as those S&W pistols. Notably, we drilled DAILY with this Tasers, as part of a spark test before starting each shift.

Though I did not keep my early-Nineties S&W 3913 beyond 1997, I did, after retirement, feel some amount of nostalgia for it, and, during 2018 to ~2020, accumulated several well-preserved samples of that model series. All those years of drilling with the Tasers had done a VERY good job of preserving the skill of manipulating that safety lever, and, the pistols were still found to be “natural pointers” in my hands. The panic-demic did interrupt the vetting of the individual pistols, however, as it would have reduced my supply of 9mm ammo too much for comfort.

Notably, I managed to de-conflict the operation of 1911 and Third-Generation S&W safety levers. I had first learned pistol shooting with a 1911, in 1982/1983, at age 21. Mas Ayoob wrote about how he did it, and while I do not recall all the details, I did commit to the concept of off-safe being lever-toward-target/opponent/enemy, and a thumb motion that achieved that effect, by pushing forward, with my forward-pointing thumb, toward the target/enemy/opponent. Notably, my thumb does NOT “sweep downward” to off-safe the 1911, but pushes forward.

It is not that I am recommending carrying handguns with differing safety controls, but, by learning to de-conflict the 1911 and Third-Generation S&W safeties, during a time when I was not actively carry a 1911, I was able to safely use 1911 pistols, and the Tasers, when the time came to use/carry both 1911s and Tasers; a time when the 1911 was MY choice, and the Tasers mandated by my employer.

Notably, however, by not conditioning myself to off-safe with a downward sweep of the thumb, I will tend to miss the safety levers of many auto-pistol systems, especially the smaller ones. My thumb will totally miss the safety levers of such pistols as Colt Mustangs and 380 Governments, their SIG and Kimber derivatives, and even the Browning Hi-Power. As much as I love the BHP, it is NOT a weapon that I should carry, or use for defensive purposes.

I think I have typed enough, for now.

[JCN]

On the other hand, carrying the Blastomatic 2000 this week because you carried the Sheepdog MkIV last week and you’re bored with it now? That’s a rotation.

Elsewhere, I wrote “It's the gun forum guys who report that they've just bought the latest gun getting all the magazine ink, the P365 or the Hellcat or the Stack-A-Toe or the PDP or whatever, and they breathlessly report about their first range trip with it and how it performed flawlessly and now they'll be "adding it to The Rotation" that grind me to a halt.”

But again, you’re ignoring the question of:

If the “gun of the week” person crushes you on objective shooting tests no matter what gun they use…

Who is laughing at whom?




So honest question for you: what’s your objective performance standard that you personally meet?


Is it a FAM or an FBI or what?

And if someone can best that with whatever gun of the week they carry… what is your concern with that?




Note that I am NOT talking about institutional use like what HCM is talking about. For that purpose, if any team mate pulled that shit, they should get a swift kick in the gonads (I made that gender neutral).







My personal minimum standard would be a Bakersfield 10 round test.

I would encourage people to at least meet that performance standard.


I can do it with a snub revolver including the reload, so I’m comfortable with carrying that.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49181-Old-Bakersfield-PD-qual&p=1250036&viewfull=1#post1250036

If you can’t do it with your carry gun no matter what it is, I would recommend more focus on training rather than throwing stones.


You know that parable about sticks and planks in your own eye…

IMO, really people should be able to clean the test with 100 points with any semiauto they carry but that’s just my opinion.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?49181-Old-Bakersfield-PD-qual&p=1249767&viewfull=1#post1249767

Latka Gravas I know you can clean your state LEO qual with your guns, try this one next time you get a chance. It’s a fun one.

[Gun Mutt]

With the caveat that nobody should put much stock into what I say on the topic, my take: for me, it’s about the right tool for the environment. My “carry rotation” pretty much has 3 speeds: Glock, revolver, edged. Depends where I am.

Ditto…every word.

[Trooper224]

I do, though my ‘rotation’ is months or years per cycle. When my fancy turns from one gun to another, as I’m about to do having gotten a P30 slide with an optic cut, I take it to the range first at least once. If I don’t shoot to an acceptable level with it I will either give it another try before carrying or just bail out.

This is also my process. When I find myself getting too relaxed and lazy habits start creeping in, I make a switch. It forces me to refocus and really helps maintain my skill set. But, like you, it's a rotation of months and years, not daily whim.

[Tamara]

But again, you’re ignoring the question of:

If the “gun of the week” person crushes you on objective shooting tests no matter what gun they use…

Who is laughing at whom?

That’s a meaningless comparison.

The relevant comparison is “Me if I focused on one gun” versus “Me if I changed guns every time I changed socks”.

I’d bet money that “JCN who focused on one gun” would absolutely roflstomp “JCN who carried whatever was on the cover of G&A this week”.

Wearing a watch or driving a car is an expression of personality or individuality.

A piece of lifesaving equipment down the front of your drawers where nobody can see it isn’t expressing anything to anybody but your own junk.

[BehindBlueI's]

I think BBI found that pocket revolvers were 100% effective in his self defense studies because of the element of surprise.

Correct *with the caveat* of the context was random street robberies/carjacking sorts of incidents and not things like stalking turned deadly, criminal hits, and other targeted attacks.

Simply enough, it's likely your first robbery but not the robber's first robbery. Complacency gets us all in some areas, and street criminals are not widely known for mental discipline.

OODA looping the opponent is easier, they are telling you to give them what's in your pockets and to do that you have to reach in your pocket.

Robbers want to live to rob another day, your goodies aren't worth being killed over, unlike the crazy ex who doesn't give a shit if (s)he dies as long as you go, too. Psychological stops and fleeing are very common reactions to determined resistance.

[ccmdfd]

Some people like to make things more complicated, because they like to make things more complicated.

It's Sunday at 2:00 p.m. according to internet statistics the chances of being attacked by a group of Arab terrorists just went from 1 to the negative 10th power to 1 to the negative 9.99 power. Arab terrorist tend to attack in groups of six or more, but they don't wear very heavy clothing. Therefore I need something with high capacity but not so much for penetration.

On the other hand, at 6:00 p.m. the threat from Arab terrorism goes back to normal, Baseline but now I'm more likely to be attacked by a group of three men in a van high on meth. They tend to wear heavier clothes than the Arab terrorists, so I'm going to need something with better penetration. And due to the fact that they are cranked up on meth I need something with more hydrostatic shock.

Ergo, I need to rotate what I'm carrying today between 2:00 p.m. and 6:00 p.m.

[BehindBlueI's]

Old thread, I may have already said this.


At what point are you so deep into diminishing returns that the tiny differences in performance are irrelevant? Shooters like JCN are well past the line where an extra tenth of a second split time or .5" tighter group is going to be what saves the day. Technical ability is awesome and gives you more options for harder problems, but realistically these tiny differences in performance are not what's going to win or lose the day.

Where I have a concern with the 'carry rotation' is different systems with different trigger weights, different safeties, etc. Even if you've been in a shooting, you don't know what the next one looks like. The cognitive load is pretty high, to say the least, and running the gun subconsciously does require your subconscious to know what gun it's running. Some of you may be so advanced that just the feel of the grip is enough. I'm not. I would never 'rotate' a striker fired, a manual thumb safety, and a decocker pistol. I am fine 'rotating' a revolver vs a Glock because I feel is so different my brain gets the differences without conscious thought.

But I'm also the guy who reaches for phantom shifter levers/knobs routinely and feels for the phantom clutch on occasion since I routinely drive 3 different systems (manual, column shift, dial shift). Maybe I just suck.

[Tamara]

Old thread, I may have already said this.


At what point are you so deep into diminishing returns that the tiny differences in performance are irrelevant? Shooters like JCN are well past the line where an extra tenth of a second split time or .5" tighter group is going to be what saves the day. Technical ability is awesome and gives you more options for harder problems, but realistically these tiny differences in performance are not what's going to win or lose the day.

Where I have a concern with the 'carry rotation' is different systems with different trigger weights, different safeties, etc. Even if you've been in a shooting, you don't know what the next one looks like. The cognitive load is pretty high, to say the least, and running the gun subconsciously does require your subconscious to know what gun it's running. Some of you may be so advanced that just the feel of the grip is enough. I'm not. I would never 'rotate' a striker fired, a manual thumb safety, and a decocker pistol. I am fine 'rotating' a revolver vs a Glock because I feel is so different my brain gets the differences without conscious thought.

But I'm also the guy who reaches for phantom shifter levers/knobs routinely and feels for the phantom clutch on occasion since I routinely drive 3 different systems (manual, column shift, dial shift). Maybe I just suck.

I don’t really disagree with anything in this post.

[JCN]

That’s a meaningless comparison.

The relevant comparison is “Me if I focused on one gun” versus “Me if I changed guns every time I changed socks”.

I’d bet money that “JCN who focused on one gun” would absolutely roflstomp “JCN who carried whatever was on the cover of G&A this week”.

Wearing a watch or driving a car is an expression of personality or individuality.

A piece of lifesaving equipment down the front of your drawers where nobody can see it isn’t expressing anything to anybody but your own junk.

It is very much NOT a meaningless comparison.

You say that you want to understand but you’re not listening.

A gun is NOT a piece of lifesaving equipment. The gunman / gunwoman behind the gun is.

I don’t give a shit if someone has a pink and purple sequined gun if they’re good with it.

Similarly someone who treats a gun like “lifesaving equipment” but doesn’t train to be good with it… WTF is that.


Okay so here it is for you:

I already train 99%+ with one handgun and it is NOT a carry gun.

I KNOW that I could stomp my performance with that gun over a carry gun.

But I can pick up any carry gun and far exceed what the “one gun, train as you fight” crew achieves, and I make compromises for comfort and convenience.



Without the fun and entertainment of the sport of USPSA with bells and whistles, I would still not be very good with a Glock.


Every once in a while I’ll dust off my carry gun and test proficiency.


https://youtu.be/ysLLBd1blJw


That’s not even close to what I can do at max potential with the gun I spend 99% of my time on.




The points you’re making are ones that I went through in my own decision making and training.

Whatever gets people excited for training and improving, I’m all for as long as they’re training and improving.


People who stick to one gun but don’t train and don’t improve aren’t any better in my book than the fluffy people you decry.


And people who treat guns like jewelry but keep pushing themselves to improve… that’s better than people who don’t train and improve no matter the shape and color of their equipment.

[JCN]

I would never 'rotate' a striker fired, a manual thumb safety, and a decocker pistol. I am fine 'rotating' a revolver vs a Glock because I feel is so different my brain gets the differences without conscious thought.

But I'm also the guy who reaches for phantom shifter levers/knobs routinely and feels for the phantom clutch on occasion since I routinely drive 3 different systems (manual, column shift, dial shift). Maybe I just suck.

As always the voice of reason.

As an aside, the reason why I love dry firing with the Shadow 2 is that the DA first shot works for almost all types of guns from revolvers to striker fire. And my particular gun I have set up to rest on the thumb safety so my grip establishment already clicks safeties off.

So I’ve developed mechanics that translate over to pretty much everything… but I won’t carry a gun with a decocker because the manual of arms of that would be catastrophic if I got that muscle memory confused.

The analogy would be: even if the throttle and brake pedals have different weights, travel and slightly different locations, that’s not meaningfully going to affect my performance and safety on the street driving them.

But I wouldn’t drive a car that had the throttle and brake pedal reversed.





I don’t drive the highest performance car all the time. I might be compromising the safety of my daughter because I didn’t have all the grip and horsepower on tap at all times.


But there’s a point where good enough is good enough and driving judgment and skill dwarfs the equipment.

[Tamara]

It is very much NOT a meaningless comparison.

You say that you want to understand but you’re not listening.

A gun is NOT a piece of lifesaving equipment. The gunman / gunwoman behind the gun is.

Similarly, you are apparently big mad at something that’s not even being said here.

I can’t help you understand, either.


People who stick to one gun but don’t train and don’t improve aren’t any better in my book than the fluffy people you decry.

Literally nobody is saying this.

[Rex G]

More thoughts:

Over the past four decades, I have handled, and then de-selected from consideration, a number of then-trendy handguns, because they did not “point naturally” in my hands. While it is true that I might well be able to condition myself, with x-thousand number of training rounds, why would that be a good idea? During that attempt at transition, I would be less-competent with my previous carry guns, while not yet being competent with the new one.

If a gun points well, but the trigger compels me to use a radically different positioning of my trigger finger, then that gun may be OK for occasional recreation, but not a good candidate for too much shooting, lest it mess-up my performance with my serious guns, and certainly not a good thing to use defensively. My Kahr K9 was such a gun; no matter how much I liked it, I knew that using it defensively would probably result in my shots not hitting near enough to the point of aim, because I would probably not remember, under stress, to crook my trigger finger “just so.”

One reason for me to use differing handguns is because my hands are not the same size and shape. My left index finger is slightly longer than my right index finger, and, my left hand has more meat on it, than does my right hand. I write lefty, and throw right-handed, which indicates the different “natural” skill-sets of each hand/arm. I am functionally ambidextrous with most handguns, but, not necessarily equally skillful, with each handgun, with each hand. Glocks generally perform better when I fire them left-handed. Manipulating a firearm’s hammer is better accomplished with my notably more-dextrous left thumb, whether the weapon is being held in my left or right hand. The draw-stroke is more natural if performed with my right hand and arm. So, now y’all know why I tend to carry two handguns, much of the time.

The one handgun that works most ambidextrously for me, is the medium- to medium-large-frame DA revolver. SP101, K/L-frame, Security/Speed/Service Six, GP100, Colt Python/Official Police/Trooper. J-Frame is less efficient, but workable. The Ruger cylinder release is probably the most efficient, but the same inward-and-forward push works well with S&W. The Colt cylinder release is the odd one out, though it can be wickedly advantageous for a lefty reload. The most efficient thing to do, to get back into a real fight, when revolvering, of course, is to pull another handgun.

A Glock G26 is a nifty “reload,” when a revolver is one’s primary handgun. ;)

If I expect serious trouble, I might want that “reload” to be a G17, with a 25-round OEM mag in place.

[Totem Polar]

You peeps. JCN, Tamara if you knew what each other drove, shot, and shot at over the years, you’d likely find a pile to agree upon.

As an outsider, I suspect there’s something lost in translation here.

[JCN]

Similarly, you are apparently big mad at something that’s not even being said here.

I can’t help you understand, either.

Literally nobody is saying this.

Okay. First off, I apologize for being overly pointy. It’s a pet peeve of mine just like the reverse is a pet peeve of yours.

Let me summarize your points that I think you’re making:

1. People should not treat their guns with any more affectation than a hammer or other tool.
2. People should carry the gun that they absolutely shoot the best so as not to take any reduction in life saving ability.
3. People should mainly train with the gun so that they become better than they are.


Is that a fair summary?

[Rex G]

I can provide one very specific example of an incompatibility of two pistols systems, at least in my hands. SouthNarc may or may not remember, but at my first ECQC, in 2005, I decided to switch carry rigs, during the lunch break. Morning was a Glock morning, then, afternoon was with my police duty rig, with my P229R DAK. I then embarrassed myself, in front of Craig, Paul Gomez, and everyone else. The short version: Trigger Reset IS A Thing.

Background: The previous year, in late 2004, I had transitioned duty pistols, from G22, to SIG P229 DAK. It was a painless, trouble-free transition. No problems, at all. I fired that SIG, cold, for the very first time, on the qual course, with a better score than I had ever fired, with a Glock, in 2.5 years of trying. I had not yet bought a good concealment holster, for the SIG, and had been using revolvers during personal time, before and after the transition. (I shot my revolvers better than I could shoot a Glock.)

ECQC Day: In order to not hold-up the program, I did not want to use a revolver during ECQC, when everyone else was using autos. I brought a concealable* Blade-Tech holster, for the Glock, and my police duty rig, to use with the SIG. I had sold-off two of my G22 Glocks, but still had one, hanging around, so I decided to use it as a “school gun.” The morning shooting was at very close range, so, I reckoned that the SIG’s better accuracy potential was unimportant. After lunch, I may have thought that the range would increase, but, the more important thing was to be street-relevant, as the instruction ramped-up. Well, when the shooting started, I thought that my SIG had a dead trigger. I have disremembered the exact details, but it soon became apparent that the intense shooting, during the morning, had programmed my trigger finger to the Glock’s shorter reset, to the extent that I was not allowing the SIG P229 DAK reset itself. I seem to recall that I failed to reset, at least TWICE. Good thing that ECQC was not Da Streetz! I’d a been kilt!

When I transitioned back to Glocks, in 2015, though 9mm, for orthopedic reasons, I retired my P229R DAK, to deconflict the trigger reset issue. Much of my accuracy problem, with Glocks, had been resolved, in the meantime, by the smaller volume of the gripping area of the Gen4, resulting in a MUCH better fit, in my hands.

*I wore KAVU vests, when concealing duty-sized pistols, back then. They don’t make ‘em like they used to…

[Sig_Fiend]

Okay. First off, I apologize for being overly pointy. It’s a pet peeve of mine just like the reverse is a pet peeve of yours.

Let me summarize your points that I think you’re making:

1. People should not treat their guns with any more affectation than a hammer or other tool.
2. People should carry the gun that they absolutely shoot the best so as not to take any reduction in life saving ability.
3. People should mainly train with the gun so that they become better than they are.


Is that a fair summary?

You seem to be an outlier. Outliers can get away with a LOT, and more power to them. I don't think that same logic extrapolates to the rest of the population.

I think the critical factor is people being able to clearly articulate why they're making the carry choices they are.

[Tamara]

Let me summarize your points that I think you’re making:

1. People should not treat their guns with any more affectation than a hammer or other tool.
Disagree. People can get very emotionally invested with favorite guns. I know I do. There are guns I have that will only be sold by my heirs and assigns...if they're inconsiderate assholes.

2. People should carry the gun that they absolutely shoot the best so as not to take any reduction in life saving ability.
Disagree. People should carry the firearm that fits the requirements of the task at hand, within a fairly tight repertoire of firearms they practice with, rather than some intangible like "it makes me feel pretty".
A sane 'rotation', which is absolutely not what's being criticized here, would be e.g. carrying the G22 at work because you have to, the G19 off-duty because it's easier to conceal and cheaper to feed and that's what you practice with, and a 642 in your coat pocket in winter because who wants to get frostbite because they left their coat open?

3. People should mainly train with the gun so that they become better than they are.
I mean, generally, yeah? Normal people should train with the guns they carry to a reasonable degree, and I fail to see how that's even the slightest bit controversial? But if someone's a USPSA GM working on winning major matches, then they should probably keep on training for that, and as long as they're not carrying a cap-and-ball revolver between matches, they'll likely be okay with their Glock 19 when the race gun is locked up?

[HCM]

1. People should not treat their guns with any more affectation than a hammer or other tool.
Disagree. People can get very emotionally invested with favorite guns. I know I do. There are guns I have that will only be sold by my heirs and assigns...if they're inconsiderate assholes.


Uhhh… Yes. Working guns - tools which must be considered disposable weather through wear, being taken as evidence after a shooting etc. “shoots for fun guns” - I absolutely have emotional attachment to guns I inherited from my dad and uncle and wish to pass on. A couple of my former duty guns have “graduated” from expendable to “never sell” in their retirement.


2. People should carry the gun that they absolutely shoot the best so as not to take any reduction in life saving ability.
Disagree. People should carry the firearm that fits the requirements of the task at hand, within a fairly tight repertoire of firearms they practice with, rather than some intangible like "it makes me feel pretty".
A sane 'rotation', which is absolutely not what's being criticized here, would be e.g. carrying the G22 at work because you have to, the G19 off-duty because it's easier to conceal and cheaper to feed and that's what you practice with, and a 642 in your coat pocket in winter because who wants to get frostbite because they left their coat open?

Again sort of yes to both. The general rule is carry the gun you perform best with. Deviate from that only based on articulated necessity. I.e. smaller version of the primary gun due to dress or environmental requirements vs going to something completely different. The J frame in a coat pocket is winter is a specialized task.

Complete thread drift one of my mentors shot two guys with a detective special from the pocket of a three-quarter length leather coat in the early 80s. Well, I was interested in the fact that this occurred on a subway car, and the first shot was fired from within the pocket as a contact shot, and all the other technical details, said mentor, was focused on the fact that it was a really beautiful Cordova colored leather coat and he’s still mad about the coat.

Having seen pictures of him back, then imagine a cross between Sylvester Stallone in the 1981 movie nighthawks and Joseph Stalin.

PS- Nothing is cheaper to feed than a gun shooting issued ammo. Unfortunately not every agency is so blessed.

[JCN]

Tamara haha. That formatting makes it hard to quote and reply.

1. Okay not talking about all guns. I was talking about carry guns. What if someone really likes different carry guns? Is that wrong as long as they achieve a high level of proficiency with each?


2. You say people should carry the firearm that fits the requirements of the task at hand, within a fairly tight repertoire of firearms they practice with, rather than some intangible like "it makes me feel pretty".
A sane 'rotation', which is absolutely not what's being criticized here, would be e.g. carrying the G22 at work because you have to, the G19 off-duty because it's easier to conceal and cheaper to feed and that's what you practice with, and a 642 in your coat pocket in winter because who wants to get frostbite because they left their coat open?

But why can’t they do both? Carry guns they practice with and make them feel cool or happy?

Why are you the judge of sane versus insane? I think being below a certain objective shooting standard is doing onesself and their loved ones a disservice, but that’s not my call to make. Why do you feel you’re able to judge what’s sane or insane for others?


3. I mean, generally, yeah? Normal people should train with the guns they carry to a reasonable degree, and I fail to see how that's even the slightest bit controversial?

That’s part of what I’m trying to get across. If someone carries a J frame but hates shooting it and trains with a K or N frame are they better or worse off training hours with that rather than someone who sticks to the J frame and only shoots for minutes?

It’s a big reason for people to plateau in their skills. It’s pretty well established that doing a competition like USPSA helps shooters train cognitive loading no matter what gun they’re competing with.

You’ll get better faster comparing and learning apples to applies with a carry optics gun at matches than plinking away by yourself on a square range shooting drills of your own choosing.

I’ll offer up this challenge. Do USPSA for one season in earnest and learn what you don’t know. It’d make a great article and can really help your readership get better perspective and training. You’ll quickly learn how much the gun really doesn’t matter and how much shooting does.

So just as perspective:

A P365 might be a better training analog to a duty G22 because the recoil intensity and impulse is more similar than 9mm out of a G19, split timing and vision tracking also might be more similar between the 365/22.

[UNM1136]

I have been of the opinion since reading one of Uncle Scotty's articles in SWAT that if I need a gun, I am going to need it very fast,very badly, and it really should be the one that I am the most familiar with, most proficient with, most capable with....My work gun is my EDC. It just made sense. It made sense when I carried a Sig, a 1911, a M&P, and now my Glock.

I do have a gym gun that I wear around the house, around the yard, to the community mailbox, and, of course, to the gym., worn in a Philster Enigma City Special, but I am working to remove the gym gun from "the rotation" so I can run my work RMR'd G17 24/7. My gym gun is on my agency Qual Card.

I enjoy shooting my Dad's single action .357, and may well start competing with it, but it will not make it into "the rotation" until zombies take over the world, and .38 Special or .357 is the coin of the realm.


pat

[Tamara]

It’s a big reason for people to plateau in their skills. It’s pretty well established that doing a competition like USPSA helps shooters train cognitive loading no matter what gun they’re competing with.


If you think I disagree with this, I don't know what to say. We are apparently not even in the same dimension.

[UNM1136]

Ain’t nobody making you read this thread, you know. :p ;)

Yes ma'am, and despite the fruits your efforts, you are still making good arguments...

pat

[JCN]

The general rule is carry the gun you perform best with. Deviate from that only based on articulated necessity. I.e. smaller version of the primary gun due to dress or environmental requirements vs going to something completely different. The J frame in a coat pocket is winter is a specialized task.

Can we talk about this one a little?

Because I feel like it deserves fleshing out a little.

I struggle and have struggled with that concept.

I know it sounds stupid but honestly.

[JCN]

If you think I disagree with this, I don't know what to say. We are apparently not even in the same dimension.

I don’t know how you’re getting to your conclusions then, because from someone on this side you’re talking bizarro-FUDD talk.

You’re saying that you compete to at least a medium level in order to actually be understanding how competition skills build shooting skills irrespective of the gun platform… to the point where the gun doesn’t really matter.

I don’t know your shooting and competition background, so it’s an honest question. For all I know you could be a 3 gun champion.

[BehindBlueI's]

People should carry the firearm that fits the requirements of the task at hand,

This, folks, this. I was a victim of "what you shoot best" for way to many years. What's that mean? Best groups? Fastest draw to an "A" box shot? Best FAST time? If I've got Crackhead McItchy covering me demanding my wallet, is a a j-frame in my pocket better or worse than a 6" N-frame in a shoulder holster or a G17 carried appendix? I'm not racing a beep, I'm racing his OODA loop. Which gives me the biggest head start? Is my reload time relevant? Is my 50y accuracy relevant? What does "shoot best" look like? I tried for quite awhile to come up with a suitable answer for myself for such lofty and weighty questions as P226 vs G22/G17 and GP100 vs k-frame before eventually having the epiphany of...what am I actually preparing for and why? Which lead me to two guns for years, one to cover the weakness of the other. I'd rather have little pocket carry guy vs street thug at arms length and a big o duty gun for active mall shooter...but now I'm lazy and mostly back to just the duty gun all the time and just not being where gun problem soft of street crime is exceedingly exceedingly rare.

[HCM]

Can we talk about this one a little?

Because I feel like it deserves fleshing out a little.

I struggle and have struggled with that concept.

I know it sounds stupid but honestly.

It’s no different than minimizing variables in performance development.

For administrative reasons we’ve had periods of time where we had guys going back and forth between HK LEM and Glocks (26) and later SIG DAK and Glocks. All (including me) performed worse on on which ever system they did not focus on vs those running all LEM, all DAK or all Glock.

So I’m going to carry a SIG 365 series gun or an X Compact off duty vs my SIG 228 or a Stacatto C2. The 228 and the C2 are great guns, but I’d be giving up too much commonality and performance. Same with choosing the six striker guns versus just having my previous G26 cut for a red dot.

However there are some situations which can justify other systems like J frames for accessibility reasons. Tamara’s winter coat pocket is one. I personally had an assignment which involved lists of vehicle based surveillance in less than desirable areas and used a DAO J frame as a “lunch box” gun in a small cooler readily accessible on the passenger seat. If I saw someone approaching, I could have my hand on the gun without being too obvious, and the gun could be discreetly slipped in a pocket when I had to leave the vehicle. But it is a niche use with a specific articulated purpose. The resistance to foreign object NDs and ease of taking the 2nd gun with me when leaving the car weighted the decision towards the J frame vs a second primary duty gun.

Another example would be manual safeties. I am agnostic on the subject, other than maintaining consistency for work guns. Either all my serious use, guns will have manual safeties, or none will. Personally, I would probably run manual safeties on my pistols. If it was an administrative option given we run them on our long guns.

While I have an irrational like of some oddball guns like the AUG and MP5, real life is not a Christmas movie. Given my level of automaticity with ARs any serious use long gun for me is going to be either in AR or something that has AR like controls.

[Up1911Fan]

My answer for many years has been a G19 and a snub. These work for me the majority of the time. I've played with most single stack 9mm's for use when I needed something smaller than the G19,mostly for wear under a tucked in shirt. I've settled on the P365 series guns for those roles. They all have Borsite Razorback modules, which match my Boresite Glocks. I have no trouble finding the dot with any of them. I shoot the P365 series guns to a much higher level than the G43/43X/48.

So I might be carring a G19 with a 509T and TLR-7A, or on the rarer occasion a P365 or P365XL with an EPS carry. Do I shoot the P365 to the same level as the G19? No. I give up 10-15% or so in draw speed and accuracy at distance. The P365XL and X Macro bridge that gap. It's a trade off. But I have a specific reason for making that trade off. I can't make my primary work in some instances.

Snubs are strictly a BUG.

[Trooper224]

This, folks, this. I was a victim of "what you shoot best" for way to many years. What's that mean? Best groups? Fastest draw to an "A" box shot? Best FAST time? If I've got Crackhead McItchy covering me demanding my wallet, is a a j-frame in my pocket better or worse than a 6" N-frame in a shoulder holster or a G17 carried appendix? I'm not racing a beep, I'm racing his OODA loop. Which gives me the biggest head start? Is my reload time relevant? Is my 50y accuracy relevant? What does "shoot best" look like? I tried for quite awhile to come up with a suitable answer for myself for such lofty and weighty questions as P226 vs G22/G17 and GP100 vs k-frame before eventually having the epiphany of...what am I actually preparing for and why? Which lead me to two guns for years, one to cover the weakness of the other. I'd rather have little pocket carry guy vs street thug at arms length and a big o duty gun for active mall shooter...but now I'm lazy and mostly back to just the duty gun all the time and just not being where gun problem soft of street crime is exceedingly exceedingly rare.

The issue is, we have several groups: competitors, cops, citizens, etc., all approaching the subject with viewpoints specific to their individual context. Unfortunately, their egos want to dominate the subject and bend conflicting viewpoints to theirs. No one is going to bend, over a subject that's highly subjective on a good day. A couple of them are talking around each other without realizing they're saying pretty much the same thing. Those same egos won't allow new people to ever assume their ideas aren't new, so........

So, we'll just keep rehashing the same garbage. That fills forum threads more successfully than, "You do you bro."

[JCN]

People should carry the firearm that fits the requirements of the task at hand, within a fairly tight repertoire of firearms they practice with.


This, folks, this. I was a victim of "what you shoot best" for way to many years. What's that mean? Best groups? Fastest draw to an "A" box shot? Best FAST time?


The general rule is carry the gun you perform best with. Deviate from that only based on articulated necessity. I.e. smaller version of the primary gun due to dress or environmental requirements vs going to something completely different. The J frame in a coat pocket is winter is a specialized task.

Tamara to thread drift a little, I’m relatively new to PF but hope I have contributed some knowledge or at least some entertainment value to the site. What I love about the site 2021-2022 is that SMEs are less likely to pull the “I’m the daddy/mommy, that’s why! And if you disagree with me kid, shut up noob. You’re wrong, I’ve been here 11 years!”

Instead, there’s a reasonable discussion to help people learn what they don’t know and to have a discussion and discourse to try and further our own knowledge and understanding to keep growing. BBI and HCM are some of the best at that. Sometimes we just agree to disagree but there has been a lot of learning I think.

I “think” that the above statements while slightly contradictory aren’t super contradictory.

Instead of “shoot best” it’s “gun appropriate to mission with acceptable proficiency” is that palatable to people to agree on?

And can we agree that for civilians we allow people some personal liberty and freedom to determine what is appropriate for them?

As context Latka Gravas who inspired this thread resurrection is an almost 30 year police vet and firearms trainer who cleans his local LEO handgun qual with his “carry rotation” gun. With his experience, I think he’s earned the leeway to determine what is acceptable for him in civilian life. Sure, he could have qualified his background and cleared some of this up earlier but it still goes to support that railing on him may be overboard.

His point which sounded entirely reasonable to me was: if I can clean a COF with a carry gun but that’s not good enough for carry in the eyes of internet people, then it would also exclude many officers from showing up to work. That’s me paraphrasing the statement.

[Joe in PNG]

JCN, or anyone else who wants to play- let's bring a bit of science to the table here.

I would propose the following as an experiment. Spend one month concentrated on just one gun where all practice, dryfire, ect is on that one gun. Then a second month with a 'rotation' of shooting multiple guns. Or vice-versa if you prefer.

At the end of the first month do a FAST and some other test with the one gun, and publish the results. Same for the second month with a random gun from the rotation.

[JCN]

JCN, or anyone else who wants to play- let's bring a bit of science to the table here.

I would propose the following as an experiment. Spend one month concentrated on just one gun where all practice, dryfire, ect is on that one gun. Then a second month with a 'rotation' of shooting multiple guns. Or vice-versa if you prefer.

At the end of the first month do a FAST and some other test with the one gun, and publish the results. Same for the second month with a random gun from the rotation.


Nobody is disagreeing that there’s a performance loss when going to different guns.

Or going to a smaller gun versus a larger one.

Or a hotter caliber compared to a weaker one.


My question was: “after a certain proficiency standard… do secondary considerations become more important or valid than chasing diminishing returns.”


Sometimes I carry a G20….

[Up1911Fan]

I'd also like to point out that the majority of department quals are a bare minimum, leave no one behind course of fire.

[JCN]

I'd also lile to point out that the majority of department quals are a bare minimum, leave no one behind course of fire.

Hey, at least he set cleaning it as minimum standard for himself, ha ha. But his point was still valid for that being a reasonable personal standard for himself.

I’ve seen a lot worse from random Joe Q. Public.

[HCM]

I'd also lile to point out that the majority of department quals are a bare minimum, leave no one behind course of fire.

This ^^^^.

[Screwball]

I'd also lile to point out that the majority of department quals are a bare minimum, leave no one behind course of fire.

It is in CBP OFO… but we also have a lot of people that are scary with firearms. Going from H&K LEM to Glock was really fun! I’m surprised we didn’t have more unintentionals.

[Up1911Fan]

It is in CBP OFO… but we also have a lot of people that are scary with firearms. Going from H&K LEM to Glock was really fun! I’m surprised we didn’t have more unintentionals.

Yeah I bet that was an exciting transition for some.

[JCN]

Yeah I bet that was an exciting transition for some.


It is in CBP OFO… but we also have a lot of people that are scary with firearms. Going from H&K LEM to Glock was really fun! I’m surprised we didn’t have more unintentionals.


This ^^^^.

But knowing what we (you) know about the inability or unwillingness for people IN the business to achieve proficiency…

What can we reasonably expect from civilians?

[Up1911Fan]

But knowing what we (you) know about the inability or unwillingness for people IN the business to achieve proficiency…

What can we reasonably expect from civilians?

Better.
The majority of cops aren't gun guys or shooters. They shoot to qualify, and some can barely do that. I'd also be willing to bet the percentage who don't carry off duty is surprisingly high.

If you choose to carry a gun on a daily basis that your not required to, than yes, I expect better than a minimum qual course. You should too.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'd also like to point out that the majority of department quals are a bare minimum, leave no one behind course of fire.

ILEA standards:

https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005064427-What-is-the-ILEA-s-Qualification-Handgun-Course-

Stage 1 - 3 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds. Two handed, Strong handed firing.

The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds. The shooter will then scan and go to the low ready. When the target faces a second time, the shooter will fire 2 rounds, conduct a combat magazine exchange, and then fire 2 rounds in a total of 12 seconds. The shooter will scan and go to the low ready. When the target faces a third time, the shooter will fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will be given.

Stage 2 - 5 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds. One handed only firing.

The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, fire 5 rounds strong-handed only, conduct a 2 handed combat reload, then fire 5 rounds support-handed only in 17 seconds. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will be given.

Stage 3 - 7 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds. Two handed, Strong handed firing.

The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, the shooter will take one (01) step to the strong side, draw and fire 10 rounds in 20 seconds. Shooters must do a combat reload after 5 rounds. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will
be given.

Stage 4 - 15 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds.

The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, fire 5 rounds from the standing position, conduct a combat reload, then 5 rounds from the kneeling position in 25 seconds. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will be given.

Stage 5 - 25 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds. Two handed, Strong handed firing

The shooter will be positioned behind a standing barricade. The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, fire 5 rounds from the strong side of the barricade, conduct a combat reload, then 5 rounds from the support side of the barricade in 40 seconds. All firing will be with the weapon in the strong hand, two handed firing. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will be given. ***During Stage 5 only, the first round may be shot in: Single or Double Action mode.

Possible Score – 100
Requirements --- Officer must fire a minimum score of 80 points to qualify.
Officer must fire the course (03) times and all (03) attempts must be a score of 80 or above.

CLASSIFICATIONS:
EXPERT – 95-100 (95%) SHARPSHOOTER – 90-94 (90%) MARKSMAN – 85-89 (85%)
QUALIFIED – 80-84 (80%) FAILURE – 79 OR LOWER
Approved LETB 10/2017

[JCN]

Something has to give because most people aren’t going to carry G19/17s AIWB no matter how much we say they should (or shouldn’t).

There’s a reason P365s are the most sold handguns.

It’s like viagra… the joke is that nobody had erectile dysfunction before viagra was available. Then suddenly millions of people had it because the demand was there. Just nobody wanted to admit it before there was a solution.

P365 because people feel concealment and comfort is an issue despite a trade off in performance over a duty weapon.

There’s a real performance drop but the P365 is still pretty darn competent.

I can jive with the “select based on role at hand” but it doesn’t hold up perfectly if it’s just “best shooting.”

[BN]

What ever happened to "Pick One and Practice"?

[Up1911Fan]

ILEA standards:

https://faqs.in.gov/hc/en-us/articles/115005064427-What-is-the-ILEA-s-Qualification-Handgun-Course-

Stage 1 - 3 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds. Two handed, Strong handed firing.

The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, fire 3 rounds in 5 seconds. The shooter will then scan and go to the low ready. When the target faces a second time, the shooter will fire 2 rounds, conduct a combat magazine exchange, and then fire 2 rounds in a total of 12 seconds. The shooter will scan and go to the low ready. When the target faces a third time, the shooter will fire 3 rounds in 3 seconds. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will be given.

Stage 2 - 5 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds. One handed only firing.

The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, fire 5 rounds strong-handed only, conduct a 2 handed combat reload, then fire 5 rounds support-handed only in 17 seconds. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will be given.

Stage 3 - 7 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds. Two handed, Strong handed firing.

The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, the shooter will take one (01) step to the strong side, draw and fire 10 rounds in 20 seconds. Shooters must do a combat reload after 5 rounds. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will
be given.

Stage 4 - 15 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds.

The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, fire 5 rounds from the standing position, conduct a combat reload, then 5 rounds from the kneeling position in 25 seconds. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will be given.

Stage 5 - 25 yard line – 10 rounds in 2 magazines of 5 rounds. Two handed, Strong handed firing

The shooter will be positioned behind a standing barricade. The shooter will start with one (01) magazine of 5 rounds loaded and holstered. When the target faces, fire 5 rounds from the strong side of the barricade, conduct a combat reload, then 5 rounds from the support side of the barricade in 40 seconds. All firing will be with the weapon in the strong hand, two handed firing. When the stage of fires is completed the command to cease fire, clear and holster all weapons will be given. ***During Stage 5 only, the first round may be shot in: Single or Double Action mode.

Possible Score – 100
Requirements --- Officer must fire a minimum score of 80 points to qualify.
Officer must fire the course (03) times and all (03) attempts must be a score of 80 or above.

CLASSIFICATIONS:
EXPERT – 95-100 (95%) SHARPSHOOTER – 90-94 (90%) MARKSMAN – 85-89 (85%)
QUALIFIED – 80-84 (80%) FAILURE – 79 OR LOWER
Approved LETB 10/2017

Thanks for that. Do the RO's use an hourglass or shot timer for those stages?

[HCM]

What ever happened to "Pick One and Practice"?

Pick one, practice and get one or two identical spares /trainers was the PF mantra.

[BehindBlueI's]

Thanks for that. Do the RO's use an hourglass or shot timer for those stages?

Due to budget cutbacks, we shove a stick in the dirt and just use it as a sundial. On cloudy days an instructor brings an egg timer from home.

[HCM]

Something has to give because most people aren’t going to carry G19/17s AIWB no matter how much we say they should (or shouldn’t).

There’s a reason P365s are the most sold handguns.

It’s like viagra… the joke is that nobody had erectile dysfunction before viagra was available. Then suddenly millions of people had it because the demand was there. Just nobody wanted to admit it before there was a solution.

P365 because people feel concealment and comfort is an issue despite a trade off in performance over a duty weapon.

There’s a real performance drop but the P365 is still pretty darn competent.

I can jive with the “select based on role at hand” but it doesn’t hold up perfectly if it’s just “best shooting.”

Friday night I attended a retirement party for a colleague and had a discussion with another colleague, a former teammate, who is very much not a gun guy. Essentially, the P365 got him from randomly/ occasionally pocket carrying a .380 to regularly IWB carrying the 365. There is a real performance drop with the 365, but have a gun is a real thing and like the Glock 26, the 365 is one of those guns that punches above it’s weight in that it is more shootable than comparable guns.

[JCN]

If you choose to carry a gun on a daily basis that your not required to, than yes, I expect better than a minimum qual course. You should too.

I expect that of myself (obviously). But I’m a realist and don’t expect that of random people.

Let’s flip your statement on its head…

How many civilians with less than minimum standards were STILL effective at winning a gunfight. Whether from psychological stop or contact shots.

If we are talking about 2A rights as constitutional, higher proficiency standards are just not going to happen.

We can barely get people to stop texting, drinking and driving. Or smoking. Or overeating.

You think you’re going to appeal to someone who doesn’t take care of themselves and is more likely to die of cancer or heart disease that they should be 5 second FAST capable with a handgun to save their life… maybe?

[JCN]

What ever happened to "Pick One and Practice"?

I’d settle for just “practice” lol.

[JCN]

Pick one, practice and get one or two identical spares /trainers was the PF mantra.

Well I do that… but then I pick another… and another….


Just kidding. Kind of.


I really only carry one semiauto 99% of the time I carry semiautos (P365).
And one revolver.


But I do buy two to three of whatever I’m working on as my “fun” project.

[Trooper224]

Better.
The majority of cops aren't gun guys or shooters. They shoot to qualify, and some can barely do that. I'd also be willing to bet the percentage who don't carry off duty is surprisingly high.

If you choose to carry a gun on a daily basis that your not required to, than yes, I expect better than a minimum qual course. You should too.

The average citizen gun owner exhibits no more ability than the average LEO. Don't confuse you and your buddies, or most of the participants here, as the typical armed citizen. The common armed citizen buys a gun, maybe shoots it once or twice a year if ever. Usually, if they prevail in an armed encounter it's because the criminals are more inept than they are.

Serious shootists in any walk of life are the distinct minority in a very niche community.

[Up1911Fan]

I expect that of myself (obviously). But I’m a realist and don’t expect that of random people.

Let’s flip your statement on its head…

How many civilians with less than minimum standards were STILL effective at winning a gunfight. Whether from psychological stop or contact shots.

If we are talking about 2A rights as constitutional, higher proficiency standards are just not going to happen.

We can barely get people to stop texting, drinking and driving. Or smoking. Or overeating.

You think you’re going to appeal to someone who doesn’t take care of themselves and is more likely to die of cancer or heart disease that they should be 5 second FAST capable with a handgun to save their life… maybe?

So I guess they better hope that their fight is at contact distance? Are they fast enough from their chosen carry location at that range? I know we're not talking about raising the minimums on a state CCW Qual, but that minimum shouldn't be your best.

I don't think a sub 5 FAST is a requirement, I know I'm not shooting that. Mainly because I hardly ever practice reloads from concealment, as I don't prioritize that skill, so I have know way of making sub 5 time when my true concealed reload is probably around 2.2-2.4 sec.

I agree with you on everything else you stated

[Warped Mindless]

Looking at this from a defensive context as opposed to sport…

I have two guns I carry regularly: a P320 and a 365xl with a macro grip.

While I shoot the 320 better I don’t really care because past a certain point, winning a gunfight is going to come down to awareness, mindset, fitness, and how well I can apply the correct tactics all more so than how well I can shoot a gun.

The difference been scoring a 90% of the FAM test with one gun and a 80% with the other doesn’t really mean a lot in real world defensive counters IMO… not as much as the other factors I listed above anyways.

When someone ask me what gun they should carry for defense I always reply “what do you know about cooper color codes?”

I’m very much a software over hardware guy and I think to many people are to focused on the tool.

Anyways, to answer the question: a lcp max for the yard, and the sigs for outside the home carry.

[Up1911Fan]

The average citizen gun owner exhibits no more ability than the average LEO. Don't confuse you and your buddies, or most of the participants here, as the typical armed citizen. The common armed citizen buys a gun, maybe shoots it once or twice a year if ever. Usually, if they prevail in an armed encounter it's because the criminals are more inept than they are.

Serious shootists in any walk of life are the distinct minority in a very niche community.
Your 100% correct, and I'm not confused in the slightest. Simply saying that I don't agree with striving for the minimum as good enough.

[WDR]

I once missed a chance at a spike bull elk that should have been an easy chip shot... because I was hunting with a new to me rifle, and when I pressed the trigger, there was no boom, because I had failed to operate the safety. By the time I corrected the issue, the elk was over the ridge.

I corrected that by ONLY hunting with that rifle, and making a LOT of presentations, and doing "snap" shooting at field targets.

A couple years later I made a fairly quick shot on the biggest mule deer I've ever killed, going from standing to sitting while flipping scope caps, hasty-slinging, taking the rifle off safe, and visually tracking the running buck, bringing the gun up without closing either eye and shooting just a moment after my butt hit the dirt and my elbows hit my knees.

I don't think I would have made that shot with an unfamiliar rifle.

Familiarity with ones equipment is a good thing. Being able to operate your primary guns without a lot of conscious thought is a good thing. Being able to shoot a variety of guns well is a good thing. Choosing guns that fit the current criteria of your situation is a good thing. Gun of the Week is probably not a good thing. Some folks will get away with it. Some folks are good enough shooters to make just about any gun work. IMHO, that is rare, and most folks would be better served by sticking to one gun or platform for daily carry.

All that said, I carry Glocks or J-frames, and try to maintain skills with both types.

[HeavyDuty]

I would never 'rotate' a striker fired, a manual thumb safety, and a decocker pistol.

I have to quote this for emphasis. I’m currently considering transitioning from primarily Glocks to primarily TDA decocker pistols for defensive carry. If I choose to do this, I will have to make the commitment to carrying TDA all of the time. For my little reptilian brain, that’s gonna be a big mental rewiring project. I can equate it to when I switched from playing four string basses to five, I can’t go back and forth.

[BWT]

I think the obvious is this:

https://youtu.be/tfXCEhXo2zw

:35 seconds on.

If you want to switch guns, take your chances, etc. feel you’re good enough. Great. Seriously. That’s great. But, if you want to be the best you can be then I think Ben is qualified enough to give this advice and it’s how he got where he is.

I’m not saying there’s not a place for shooting different guns, but with the time, range time you have, ammo you have, etc. etc. it’s just silly to get into these case-by-case arguments where people indicate they’re different.

They may be. Or they may not be. I don’t care what you do. But, what ruffles my feathers is when you tell *other* people what they should do.

It reminds me of this - once upon a time I did Jiu Jitsu and we talked a lot about self-defense. I trained and partnered with Dads, moms, kids, off-duty police officers, etc. in my lofty rank of Blue Belt (that’s not lofty at all). I still felt a weight of responsibility of that officer was here to learn a skill. Not win a competition but learn a skill to defend themselves.

I’d never teach that person to go for a heel hook, because you might get knocked unconscious and beaten to a pulp, left for dead, or god knows what else, etc. Like Gary Tonnon in the following link.

https://youtube.com/shorts/YUP488XvlBo?feature=share

The thing is Gary Tonnon trained under John Danaher (He was part of the Danaher Death Squad who’s known world wide as the best leg lockers) and is honestly probably one of the best no-gi grapplers in the world.

What I’m getting at is - don’t recommend a carry rotation to people who can’t be bothered to go to a range more than once a year, don’t know when they last cleaned their gun, or if it’s loaded, etc. like they shoot USPSA is, etc. because the best in the world can screw stuff up (Gary Tonnon) and the best in the world (Ben Stoeger - love him or hate him) recommend against using different guns.

If you do it - that risks on you. You live with it. That’s how I see it, but don’t endorse it IMHO to everyone.

[MickAK]

Pick one, practice and get one or two identical spares /trainers was the PF mantra.

I settled on 4 for each gun.

One carry/primary, shot enough to vet reliability.
One identical spare, same.
One trainer/dryfire, shot to shit and abused.
One test bed, for trying out optics, comps, grip mods, WMLs, whatever.

Figure there's 3 main jobs. Large carry/field, medium carry, pocket. Multiple holsters for each job depending on the situation. If you're LE or you have a dedicated woods gun 4 jobs.

That's a dozen guns minimum, plus holsters, hundreds of magazines, spare parts, maintenance, inspection, cleaning, and storage. Training with all.

It's not that I think somebody couldn't do ok with a 'carry rotation' but they probably have other things they should be spending their time on.

I've seen enough guns fail over little stupid stuff that a 20 second inspection would have caught that I worry more about that than anything else.

[Trooper224]

I think the obvious is this:

https://youtu.be/tfXCEhXo2zw

:35 seconds on.

If you want to switch guns, take your chances, etc. feel you’re good enough. Great. Seriously. That’s great. But, if you want to be the best you can be then I think Ben is qualified enough to give this advice and it’s how he got where he is.

I’m not saying there’s not a place for shooting different guns, but with the time, range time you have, ammo you have, etc. etc. it’s just silly to get into these case-by-case arguments where people indicate they’re different.

They may be. Or they may not be. I don’t care what you do. But, what ruffles my feathers is when you tell *other* people what they should do.

It reminds me of this - once upon a time I did Jiu Jitsu and we talked a lot about self-defense. I trained and partnered with Dads, moms, kids, off-duty police officers, etc. in my lofty rank of Blue Belt (that’s not lofty at all). I still felt a weight of responsibility of that officer was here to learn a skill. Not win a competition but learn a skill to defend themselves.

I’d never teach that person to go for a heel hook, because you might get knocked unconscious and beaten to a pulp, left for dead, or god knows what else, etc. Like Gary Tonnon in the following link.

https://youtube.com/shorts/YUP488XvlBo?feature=share

The thing is Gary Tonnon trained under John Danaher (He was part of the Danaher Death Squad who’s known world wide as the best leg lockers) and is honestly probably one of the best no-gi grapplers in the world.

What I’m getting at is - don’t recommend a carry rotation to people who can’t be bothered to go to a range more than once a year, don’t know when they last cleaned their gun, or if it’s loaded, etc. like they shoot USPSA is, etc. because the best in the world can screw stuff up (Gary Tonnon) and the best in the world (Ben Stoeger - love him or hate him) recommend against using different guns.

If you do it - that risks on you. You live with it. That’s how I see it, but don’t endorse it IMHO to everyone.

A carry rotation is fine for that person. They'll be just as inept with any of them. Luck is their strategy, as it is with most people regardless of subject.

[BWT]

A carry rotation is fine for that person. They'll be just as inept with any of them. Luck is their strategy, as it is with most people regardless of subject.

Ha!

You’re not wrong about luck, but I just can’t have that on my conscience. We’ve had a few threads like this lately.

[Nephrology]

don’t know when they last cleaned their gun

i feel attacked ;)

[Totem Polar]

Thanks for that. Do the RO's use an hourglass or shot timer for those stages?

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I could clean that one using my WWII-era, heel-release P-38. Or a J-frame. I might drop some points at 25 with the J, but maybe not, with 40 seconds on the clock to sort things out. I just might try this COF with a J, if I can get to it before school starts back up. @BehindBlueI’s, I didn’t catch what the target is?

[Trooper224]

Ha!

You’re not wrong about luck, but I just can’t have that on my conscience. We’ve had a few threads like this lately.

What is it exactly that's plaguing your conscience? People are responsible for their own choices and their own consequences. It's not your burden to carry. Climb down off the cross, someone needs the wood. 😀

[JCN]

BWT

I’m just wondering whose profile that is in Stoeger’s new logo…

I’m guessing Krystal… but from profile it’s similar to Kita…

I don’t think carry rotations are a good idea.

But if someone is more motivated to practice with a new gun than not practice with their old gun (cough cough) then is it a viable way for them overall to get better than they would otherwise?

If people listened to sound advice and did the right thing, nobody would be overweight.

I don’t recommend anyone smoke tobacco or drink alcohol.

But I’d rather have them smoke tobacco than do crystal meth….

[BehindBlueI's]

Yeah, I’m pretty sure I could clean that one using my WWII-era, heel-release P-38. Or a J-frame. I might drop some points at 25 with the J, but maybe not, with 40 seconds on the clock to sort things out. I just might try this COF with a J, if I can get to it before school starts back up. @BehindBlueI’s, I didn’t catch what the target is?


IPSC/USPSA Cardboard Torso Target, but D zone and/or wings don't count as hits IIRC.

[BWT]

What is it exactly that's plaguing your conscience? People are responsible for their own choices and their own consequences. It's not your burden to carry. Climb down off the cross, someone needs the wood. 😀

True - it’d probably save me from neurosis.


I’m just wondering whose profile that is in Stoeger’s new logo…

I’m guessing Krystal… but from profile it’s similar to Kita…

I don’t think carry rotations are a good idea.

But if someone is more motivated to practice with a new gun than not practice with their old gun (cough cough) then is it a viable way for them overall to get better than they would otherwise?

If people listened to sound advice and did the right thing, nobody would be overweight.

I don’t recommend anyone smoke tobacco or drink alcohol.

But I’d rather have them smoke tobacco than do crystal meth….

I don’t think we’re in disagreement.

I think we do have to clarify in statements about performance is the jist.

I’m not saying never shoot any different guns - I’m just saying if you want performance you need to minimize it. It’s what pushed me over the edge on a 2nd G34. Our statements should reflect that.

I carried a Ruger LCP when cutting down a Christmas tree at a farm - it’s better than nothing. But it’s not the gun I EDC or recommend - you know? I wouldn’t tell someone to buy an LCP for carry.

Also… Ben’s social media and training shorts have been amazing since being banned from USPSA. It’s quite astonishing, but anyway.

[Totem Polar]

IPSC/USPSA Cardboard Torso Target, but D zone and/or wings don't count as hits IIRC.

Thanks.

https://thumbor.bigedition.com/elvis-thank-you-meme/c2w1KPOeOdrBwYtD5R5pabT59Q8=/800x533/filters:quality(80)/granite-web-prod/66/28/6628589760104e0da69c371fe82caeec.jpeg

[WDR]

i feel attacked ;)

You're supposed to... clean... them?

[HCM]

The average citizen gun owner exhibits no more ability than the average LEO. Don't confuse you and your buddies, or most of the participants here, as the typical armed citizen. The common armed citizen buys a gun, maybe shoots it once or twice a year if ever. Usually, if they prevail in an armed encounter it's because the criminals are more inept than they are.

Serious shootists in any walk of life are the distinct minority in a very niche community.

Yes. All of that, to expand a bit:

The average LEO exhibits minimal competence compared to your average competition shooter / training junkie. However:

The average gun owner buys a gun and either never shoots it or goes to shoot it once (along with the walls, ceiling, and other range fixtures.).

If their state requires training for a carry permit they will do the minimum required training course.

The average shooter casually plinks at the range somewhere between once and a dozen times a year, either at short range with a huge target or from a bench.

Compared to these groups, cops are "good shooters"

[Joe in PNG]

From my observations, the average shooter gets whatever random silhouette target happens to strikes his fancy, gets a box of the cheapest ammo available, then proceeds to randomly blast random holes all over the target.
Once he finishes the box, he might do the same with other guns in his collection, or he might go home and congratulate himself because some of the holes were towards the middle.

[Warped Mindless]

From my observations, the average shooter gets whatever random silhouette target happens to strikes his fancy, gets a box of the cheapest ammo available, then proceeds to randomly blast random holes all over the target.
Once he finishes the box, he might do the same with other guns in his collection, or he might go home and congratulate himself because some of the holes were towards the middle.

You just described nearly every man in my family.

“I hit him in the chest that’s good enough for
The real world.”

Yeah but where did the other nine shots hit?

I particularly love when someone who rarely shoots ask to go to the range with me, then after seeing me shoot ask how I “got so good” and then proceeds to tell me “that dry fire stuff doesn’t work. Nah man you gotta shoot the gun.”

That’s when I know to never let them go to the range with me again.

[JCN]

I’m not saying never shoot any different guns - I’m just saying if you want performance you need to minimize it. It’s what pushed me over the edge on a 2nd G34. Our statements should reflect that.

I carried a Ruger LCP when cutting down a Christmas tree at a farm - it’s better than nothing. But it’s not the gun I EDC or recommend - you know? I wouldn’t tell someone to buy an LCP for carry.

This is the subtle point I’m trying to make here and to Tamara.

I 100% agree with your statement. Focus on one gun and get really good.

But that’s different than focus on your CARRY gun and get really good.

Why? Because people often don’t get really good with their carry guns. Especially if their carry guns are smaller guns.


If someone wants to get good with their driver in golf but doesn’t have a good swing, they’re better off practicing the shit out of their 7 iron to learn how to swing first. Even if the eventual goal is to get good with a driver.

Why? Because feedback and consistency is king and you’ll get that learning with a club where you have to execute a high level of that. The driver is the most difficult club even though it’s one of the most used ones.

This is the point I’m trying to make and one that people who aren’t “really good” don’t really understand. Yes, most people won’t work hard enough to ever get really good. But like we said, most people won’t do the bare minimum anyway.

As long as we’re telling people unrealistic things they should do, let’s talk about what to do to get really good.




So the crux of what I’m trying to say:

1. Practice with one gun if you want to get really good.
2. Ideally that gun should be heavy and have a heavy resetting trigger to build muscle and good form.
3. You won’t learn as much from dry firing with a light SA trigger or a non-resetting striker trigger.
4. Don’t waste time on concealment when practicing until you get medium good because you’re wasting rep times that you should be spending on grip and index, you can double the reps in by mastering the basics before adding variables.
5. Practice challenges NOT OF YOUR OWN DESIGN and WITH CONSISTENT achievement levels.
6. USPSA is the best for this I’ve found because of the national classifier database.


Using a carry gun to do these things hampers the efficiency of “getting good” (unless you carry something like a G34 like you and Mr. White and others do).

A competition gun is a 7 iron and I recommend that before leaping straight to a driver.

Even to the point that if someone carries an iron sighted gun, I recommend that they train with a dot gun for the feedback and learning.

I’ve made that recommendation to a few people who have asked and most of them after a little practice understand and embrace that.



So again, this is the main point I’ve been trying to make.

If you want to “get good,” consider heavy training with one gun. That’s not necessarily and often should not be your carry gun. It should be kind of similar if possible, but by training with a DA you’ll be able to shoot any type of trigger well.


Interestingly Tim Herron who was a national level autocrosser before guns and one of his friends gave me similar information when I was asking about changing cars early on in my training.

The goal is to get good. Not get good with one particular car.

You pick one vehicle to accomplish that for learning consistency but that competition car doesn’t have to be your daily driver.

[Hambo]

A piece of lifesaving equipment down the front of your drawers where nobody can see it isn’t expressing anything to anybody but your own junk.


I'm not racing a beep, I'm racing his OODA loop.

I do miss Midwesterners.


My question was: “after a certain proficiency standard… do secondary considerations become more important or valid than chasing diminishing returns.”


Yes. The shooting ability required in most of our OIS would have made a very boring IDPA stage.

[mizer67]

I recall reading that something >85% of defensive gun uses for random crimes (i.e. robbing, rapes, etc.) are "solved" by producing a working firearm of any type and the defender having the willingness to use one. I don't recall seeing capacity, type of firearm, etc. playing any role.

I'm not a champion of rotating through the next latest and greatest black plastic people popper. However, as long as it's reliable and the person involved is willing to carry it day-in and day-out, it would seem to fit the above.

If you're police or likely to be a target of non-random violence, then ignore, but a random suburbanite would seem to have an infinitesimally small chance of ever needing more than "a gun" so even a "carry rotation" would fit the bill, provided they person involved can defeat any manual safeties and pull the booger picker on the bang switch.

There's no denying there's a benefit to getting good with one gun, but for table stakes in a random shooting, "good" is relative. It's obviously entertaining to argue the outliers though.

[Warped Mindless]

I do miss Midwesterners.



Yes. The shooting ability required in most of our OIS would have made a very boring IDPA stage.

I think it was Greg Ellifritz that once said “once you can pass the FBI test (which is not hard) with your carry pistol, you are better off working on other lacking areas such as fitness and combatives before trying to become an even better shooter.”

I tend to agree with that opinion.

I see a lot of non-competition minded shooters who tell me they train and carry for defense and while they might be a great shot, they are overweight and can’t take or give a punch. Never made sense to me…

[texag]

I've been carrying and training with varying levels of proficiency for awhile now (I think TLG said I was the first person to hug him after a FAST run at an AFHF class).

When I started coming back here and getting back into shooting more regularly, JCN was saying things similar to what he's saying now, and I thought he was a lunatic....then I saw some videos of him shooting and realized he is a lunatic that is handy with a dremel and a pistol. He's definitely changed my mind on the subject, with the caveat that I've also got to recognize that I cannot swap things around with the same abandon he does because I haven't put the same time and effort into my performance as he has with his.

I do find his point that using different guns with different characteristics can force you to learn or realize things that wouldn't be apparent otherwise. I think GJM was getting at a similar point in a different thread about shooting an Open gun and what he learned carrying over to carry pistols. I know personally I've benefited from shooting a Staccato P and being able to track and anticipate a dot way better than I can with my p365xl has helped my shooting with the sig.

[BN]

I have a story about rotation.

This happened several years ago. I was shooting an IDPA match nearly every weekend with my Glock 17. One of the locals was a well known shooter, a previous IDPA National Champion. You would all recognize his name.

He beat me regularly. One year he was shooting a different gun every match. I started regularly beating him. After a while he went back to one gun with the expected results.

[BehindBlueI's]

I recall reading that something >85% of defensive gun uses for random crimes (i.e. robbing, rapes, etc.) are "solved" by producing a working firearm of any type and the defender having the willingness to use one. I don't recall seeing capacity, type of firearm, etc. playing any role.

I'm not a champion of rotating through the next latest and greatest black plastic people popper. However, as long as it's reliable and the person involved is willing to carry it day-in and day-out, it would seem to fit the above.

If you're police or likely to be a target of non-random violence, then ignore, but a random suburbanite would seem to have an infinitesimally small chance of ever needing more than "a gun" so even a "carry rotation" would fit the bill, provided they person involved can defeat any manual safeties and pull the booger picker on the bang switch.

There's no denying there's a benefit to getting good with one gun, but for table stakes in a random shooting, "good" is relative. It's obviously entertaining to argue the outliers though.

I think sometimes people get cranky with me when I express that the needed technical skills to win a self defense encounter are generally pretty low. They confuse that with me saying it's fine to suck. There's a difference in recognizing what usually works vs what you should strive for, and while I think the message usually catches here on PF that has not been universal.

Now, that said, for random crimes in a one on one non-entangled scenario the following has been 100% effective in my case files: Presenting and firing a functioning firearm as a surprise to the bad guy. Surprise, speed, and violence of attack have won every single time IN THAT SCENARIO. What's made people lose one on ones? Obviously drawing under close observation (trying to draw on a drawn gun without distraction/OODA looping), working toward off body carry and being non-compliant, getting entangled, and presenting a non-functioning firearm. Nothing gets you shot quite like drawing a pulling a dead trigger. Getting entangled has often gone very poorly, especially for female defenders.

So given the amount of training/practice most people will do, where's it best spent? Probably not shaving tenths of split times. But definitely in a smooth concealed draw stroke and making the gun go bang 100% of the time, and hopefully with some movement added in once they are ready for EveryManAdvanced stuff.

This forum is populated with a higher percentage of high drive folks and large egos/alphas. The desire to be better simply to be better is high due to that, but so is the bias that the best shooter wins the gun fight. Bullshit. My friend who was killed in the line of duty was a good shooter, but he died with his gun in his holster so what good did it do him? We can move the needle in our direction, we can give ourselves more options, we can solve more complex problems by being better shooters but that alone is just one aspect of the gunfight...even if you discount pure fucking luck.

SO, what that means to this topic IMO is carry rotations are largely emotionally driven fashion accessory shows but as long as you can still manipulate the gun properly it *probably* won't matter. If you don't defeat a safety, have an unintended discharge, etc. due to the differences, you may fuck yourself there. But simply banging away at technical skills does hit diminishing returns in the realm of survivability in random crime encounters earlier than most want to admit, and while it's not as sexy to talk about humanizing yourself to make you harder to shoot and talking your way to the gun won't show off your newest timer record both will do more for your survivability in this context. There are other contexts and there are yabut outlier events, but with someone with limited time/talent/treasure at their disposal focusing on the 99% at the expense of the 1% shouldn't be controversial.

[Wondering Beard]

I don't get this carry rotation thing.

I have my carry gun, then I decide to carry another one, which means I have to clean and lube the new one (since my carry gun is clean though my shooting guns aren't), unload the first, put the ammo away (or load the new one), and I would rotate how often?

Or do I have to have several carry guns ready to go? And what if I'm in a mood where I like just one gun for several months while the others, supposedly ready to go ones, are sitting gathering dust and will need to be cleaned and lubed?

Do I have to do all that for BUGS too?

I'm waaay too lazy to do any of this.

;-)

[Suvorov]

.

I see a lot of non-competition minded shooters who tell me they train and carry for defense and while they might be a great shot, they are overweight and can’t take or give a punch. Never made sense to me…

Yes, but going to the range is a lot more fun than hearing your joints pop while engaging in non-consensual yoga or soaking up endless hooks to the ribs from your Nicaraguan sparring partner named Nestor who used to get in bar fights for fun…..:p

As far as a rotation goes - I am philosophically in the TLG camp but since buying my M&P 10mm as my new “backwoods carry” gun I’m desperately trying to find a justification to keep the USPc 45 it replaced……

[Clusterfrack]

I agree. Adding a new gun to my CCW toolkit is a time-consuming pain in the ass. It means more holsters, mags, spare parts, spare guns, cleaning, testing, and now probably getting it milled for a RDS. Not to mention dry and live fire with it. What a hassle.

I like having compact (P-07), small (G26), and mouse (p380) guns for CCW, and that's it.


I don't get this carry rotation thing.

I have my carry gun, then I decide to carry another one, which means I have to clean and lube the new one (since my carry gun is clean though my shooting guns aren't), unload the first, put the ammo away (or load the new one), and I would rotate how often?

Or do I have to have several carry guns ready to go? And what if I'm in a mood where I like just one gun for several months while the others, supposedly ready to go ones, are sitting gathering dust and will need to be cleaned and lubed?

Do I have to do all that for BUGS too?

I'm waaay too lazy to do any of this.

;-)

[HCM]

Yes, but going to the range is a lot more fun than hearing your joints pop while engaging in non-consensual yoga or soaking up endless hooks to the ribs from your Nicaraguan sparring partner named Nestor who used to get in bar fights for fun…..:p

As far as a rotation goes - I am philosophically in the TLG camp but since buying my M&P 10mm as my new “backwoods carry” gun I’m desperately trying to find a justification to keep the USPc 45 it replaced……

If you shoot the 10mm enough natural selection will leave you with $ to get the USPC 45 cut for an optic.

[JCN]

When I started coming back here and getting back into shooting more regularly, JCN was saying things similar to what he's saying now, and I thought he was a lunatic....then I saw some videos of him shooting and realized he is a lunatic that is handy with a dremel and a pistol. He's definitely changed my mind on the subject, with the caveat that I've also got to recognize that I cannot swap things around with the same abandon he does because I haven't put the same time and effort into my performance as he has with his.

I do find his point that using different guns with different characteristics can force you to learn or realize things that wouldn't be apparent otherwise. I think GJM was getting at a similar point in a different thread about shooting an Open gun and what he learned carrying over to carry pistols. I know personally I've benefited from shooting a Staccato P and being able to track and anticipate a dot way better than I can with my p365xl has helped my shooting with the sig.

Thank you for that. I know I’m like an annoyingly persistent howler monkey, but I have a particular skill from my day job training in figuring stuff out and how things do or don’t translate over. I’m basically an expert in efficiency and learning theory. I don’t have a “training resume” for pistol but I have an exceptional one for being a professional learner of things.

And I do love this place and what it stands for. Even if I’m a little unconventional from what passes as normal here haha.

[JCN]

I agree. Adding a new gun to my CCW toolkit is a time-consuming pain in the ass. It means more holsters, mags, spare parts, spare guns, cleaning, testing, and now probably getting it milled for a RDS. Not to mention dry and live fire with it. What a hassle.

Some of us would call that… fun. Hahaha.

No seriously, a good portion of my time is testing stuff that I could carry but probably won’t. But could. But probably won’t… but could!

It’s fun for me.

I don’t actively rotate though.

It’s a P365x as the main semiauto
Taurus View as pocket revolver
Walther Model 9 as can’t look like a gun-gun.

Testing and training to add a 357 Sig gun to the top of the carry food chain.

Might be a CZ75B to match more with my competition gun.

[Bergeron]

Testing and training to add a 357 Sig gun to the top of the carry food chain.



I’ll be curious to see what you think of trying that out, particularly from a cost-benefit perspective.

[Stephanie B]

If I had any sense, I'd find a 4546 and ditch carrying a 1911. That way, when I go from carrying a smaller revolver to a larger semiautomatic, I'd have a similar trigger operation.

Right now, it's three:

Small- Colt DS
Medium- 3" K frame
Large_ 1911

No gun areas: Folding stabby and/or pepper spray.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

A Glock 26, once in awhile a 17. When dress or my back demands, the G42 on my belt or J frame in my pocket. I don't carry my 1911 unless it is home from a match. I shoot all of them during the year, with the 17, then 26 getting the most time.

I have other guns that I might shoot for fun but I believe in having positive transfer of training which I get from the stock Glock trigger on them.

[FNFAN]

Right now the carry rotation is a G23 workdays and a S&W 642 dropped in the pocket with an extra strip, after work. The new year will see me with either a 642 or EDC9s.

[PNWTO]

Different side of the same coin but I see my EDC choices as activity-based layers, akin to outdoor recreation pursuits. Different gear for different purposes.

Most days, if I am awake and wearing clothes I have a watch, a SAK, and a pocket LCR 22 on my person. I work from home so that's about it. If it is time for errands then I'll add a bigger folder, OC, and a AIWB LCR 38. Sometimes, not always, the LCR 22 may move to the ankle.

And there is the ever-present "dad bag" of diapers and other items to support my mundane life when out and about.

If it is a hard no-gun activity then I have a different set of tools. Cheap analogies but I wouldn't take my ski pack to the beach and I wouldn't bring my snorkel to the slopes.

I think I've heard "Mission Drives the Gear Train" somewhere before...

In the same vein as cheap analogies I also wouldn't approach a day of backcountry skiing and double diamonds and think "hey, I should totally wear some different skis and boots for chuckles..."

[cmbarny2]

These days my rotation is:
Duty: G45 w/ TLR7a (Dont ask. Its a crap setup but that is what is issued and I'm stuck with for now) Will have an ACRO on it soon though.
Most often off duty is a Staccato C2 w/ 509T
Smaller carry is a 365XL on a regular 365 grip which replaced my G43.
Working in the garage or yard is my 642.

[Latka Gravas]

Well, well, well look at all the people posting that they carry a variety of guns. Even the naysayers are admitting to even carrying different functioning firearms. LOL!!! Good for them!!!

[Robinson]

Well, well, well look at all the people posting that they carry a variety of guns. Even the naysayers are admitting to even carrying different functioning firearms. LOL!!! Good for them!!!

Respectfully, I think what was being questioned is something different. A purpose-driven choice to carry one gun over another due to circumstances is not the same as the "carry rotation" that some people actually practice. It's like a "gun of the day" rotation, making it almost like a fashion accessory. That type of thing does sort of go against the ethos of this forum I think.

[Latka Gravas]

Respectfully, I think what was being questioned is something different. A purpose-driven choice to carry one gun over another due to circumstances is not the same as the "carry rotation" that some people actually practice. It's like a "gun of the day" rotation, making it almost like a fashion accessory. That type of thing does sort of go against the ethos of this forum I think.

Yeah people sure did make a LOT of assumptions concerning my posts. I simply chose not to explain my purpose for doing what I do and why-it really isn't any of anyone else's business.

[BehindBlueI's]

I simply chose not to explain my purpose for doing what I do and why-it really isn't any of anyone else's business.


Actually I can tell the difference. I shoot the gun I carry. I shoot at least once a week with a group of retired guys. So I carry one until I get bored with it and rotate to the next one......

You explained it as boredom. People reacted to that. If it's none of anyone's business why bother posting it on a discussion board...which exists to discuss things?

[Borderland]

I cruise gun forums most every day and the term 'carry rotation' always comes up but it's never been explained.

Do people rotate carry guns for some reason, or is it more a cadre of pistols that they may carry?

I have several pistols that I carry depending on concealment requirements, carry method or position, ambient conditions (extreme dust or not), activities while carrying, etc.

I carry a pistol that will fit whatever I'm doing that day.

Extreme dust? How does that determine what you carry? Just curious.

I stayed away from this thread because I don't understand the premise, but I had to ask.

[Ed L]

A lot of people with have a "Carry rotation" because it is necessitated by change in dress, circumstances, or other constraints, situational limitations or needs.

Here is my basic rotation which is based on dress and circumstances. If I am in the house wearing sweats I have a light weight J-frame in .38 with a clip draw that I clip on in an AIWB position when I throw out the trash or briefly step in front of the house. If I am wearing pants with pockets, I likely have either a S&W 640 Pro or a Kahr PM-9 in a pocket holster, and a Sig P365 9mm in IWB if my mode of dress allows.

The lightweight J frame is a S&W model 360 with professionally bobbed hammer set up with boot grips for concealability. It weighs 15 ounces and is loaded with .38 wadcutters for controllability and comfort of use. This gun was specifically selected for its light weight so I can use it with a clip-draw on my sweat pants. I typically wear sweat pants when I am around the house, and this setup allows me to clip it to the inside waist if I want to step out back to throw out the trash or out front to do something quick and simple. It is a limited role gun that compromises capability for carryability in a specific situation. One interesting thing about this model is that the sights are more usable than most J frames because it comes from the factory with a red insert on the front sight and the rear sight notch is higher profile than a standard J-frame.

98762

Next for pocket carry when I am wearing belted pants with pockets is a S&W 640 Pro .38 Special or a Kahr PM-9 9mm. I carry either of the Kahr PM-9 or the S&W 640 Pro in a strong side pocket holster. I carry the Kahr when I am wearing dress pants or a suit because it is smaller and flatter than the J-frame revolver at 5.3" overall length. But even though the Kahr holds more rounds that perform better ballistically, and the Kahr shoots more accurately than the J-Frame, I prefer a hammerless or covered hammer J-frame for pocket carry. The shape of J-frames grip lends itself much better to slipping your hand in your pocket and getting a grip on the gun--especially under less than ideal circumstances. The back of the Jframe gun is more snag free when drawing than the square rear slide of the automatic. Another factor is that the revolver is more reliable than the automatic in a compromised grip that might occur during a close-in type situation. For me those factors-- especially getting a firing grip on the gun--make the hammerless of covered hammer J-frame a better choice for pocket carry. I like the S&W 640 Pro because it has big usable sights--the best on any J-frame--and because its weight helps absorb recoil and make it more shootable. I have it loaded with Speer 135 grain +P hollowpoints, but will be investigating the new Georgia Arms Wadcutter that is designed to perform well in snubbies.

There are some pants that have pockets that easily accommodate pocket carry, while others need to be modified by a tailor to be deeper. I have had this done with countless pants. It's about $30-$40 to have it done by a tailor. I've had it done at higher end clothing stores when I bought a suit and had it fitted. I have not had a problem having high end dress pants modified that are part of suits from companies like Zegna. Deepening the pocket will not work with slacks or pants that are designed to have a tight fit to your body, but rather those with a looser fit. Most dress pants pockets are too small to fit anything useful. The key thing is to have them made deep, but not too deep, otherwise the gun in the pocket holster will be tapping into your knee all day.

I have been a big believer in pocket carry for a while, and am heartened to hear people like Darryl Bolke, BehindBlueI's, and @TCVA sing its virtues. A big advantage is you can have your hand in your pocket on the gun ready to draw which cuts down on your presentation time. Also, as BB discussed, it can be useful in a situation where a criminal might expect you to reach to your pocket to give him your wallet. BehindBlueI's summed it up very nicely when he wrote:


If I've got Crackhead McItchy covering me demanding my wallet, is a a j-frame in my pocket better or worse than a 6" N-frame in a shoulder holster or a G17 carried appendix? I'm not racing a beep, I'm racing his OODA loop. Which gives me the biggest head start?


I'd rather have little pocket carry guy vs street thug at arms length and a big o duty gun for active mall shooter...but now I'm lazy and mostly back to just the duty gun all the time and just not being where gun problem soft of street crime is exceedingly exceedingly rare.

If I am carrying the J-Frame, I am likely dressed in a manner that I can also carry IWB, so I typically will carry a more capable gun IWB as well as the J-frame in pocket carry. These days the IWB gun is Likely a Sig P365 9mm. Here are the Kahr PM-9 and the S&W 640 Pro pictured with the Sig P365.

98758

Though the Sig P365 is blastier and has more recoil than some guns that I shoot better with, the Sig P365 is smaller, flatter and lighter, and thus makes for better IWB concealment. It also holds a decent number of rounds for its size, and I typically carry it with the 12 round magazine because I prefer the way my hand achieves a firing grip on it with that length of magazine and the shape of the bottom extension.

On paper the Sig P365 would seem to be small enough for pocket carry with the flush fitting 10 round magazines. I experimented with it briefly with an unloaded gun and found that the back of the slide and sights sometimes got caught on the top edge of my pocket. This made it a no-go for me for pocket carry. If a gun needs to be drawn and a perfect angle from a pocket in a tense and dynamic situation where you may not be in a perfect stance or position it is a recipe for disaster. I am also concerned that if you are trying to draw the gun and it gets stuck on the top edge of the pocket, you might clench your hand and somehow get the finger on the trigger. I also carefully tried a bit of live fire at the range with the Sig P365 drawing from a pocket holster very carefully to get a feel for it. But my concerns remain.

I've carried other guns in the past and if I were going to use a specific gun at a specific class I worked up in training with it and carried it before the class.

[BobM]

I was issued a Security Six in 1989. I carried it or my GP100, or a Sig P220 in those days as off duty guns. I did have a S&W M60 with a Bianchi belly band for deeper concealment needs.
In 1990 I was issued a 5906. I ended up getting a 3913 and trading the 220 for a 4506. I used the S&W autos for off duty carry, IDPA, and bowling pin shooting.
When we first issued the M&P40 in 2006 there wasn’t much in off duty holsters readily available. I carried a Kimber Desert Warrior and a Glock 19 for about a year or so.
I got a compact M&P40 and began using only the M&Ps.
I now have an assortment of M&P pistols in .22, 9mm, and.40. I’m using the 2.0 compact 9 in my part-time bailiff work and some concealed carry. Lately I’ve been carrying a Shield Plus-similar capacity but lighter weight. I have multiples of both so I have different ones for practice and carry.
I also have a couple of 642s and a M&P Bodyguard 380 for backup use.
I enjoy shooting other guns but when I need a gun for defensive carry it’s an M&P.
So far my hunting and defensive shotguns are 870s and 1187s. (I’ve been through armorer school on both). I do like to carry one of my single shots in the woods once in a while. I am interested in the Beretta 1301 and the new shotgun they talking about but what I have works.
I use an assortment of ARs, .22 through.308. I also have an assortment of Ruger American rifles from.22 long rifle through.308

I like having a battery of guns with similar controls.

[BWT]

See I don’t agree Ed L.

I know this is nuanced, but I think there are legitimately folks who buy guns and have different guns and like carrying different guns.

I think all of us like carrying guns some (as evidence of our membership here), but I think some folks enjoy it from a perspective of what strikes their mood, etc.

It’s just two different schools of thought to me.

Some people carry guns that they think will suit them best in a defensive situation as the first criteria (with some caveats like what can they wear in their clothing, etc.). They probably like the gun as well (I doubt many dislike the gun they carry).

Some people carry guns that they like as the first criteria. They also look at it is as being armed and that’s sufficient (and it may be! We just don’t know what situation we’ll ever be in).

For instance I have a Springfield TRP - it’s a cool gun and I like it! I don’t practice with it or shoot it much (.45 ACP cost, kids, trying to develop proficiency, etc. not wanting to go back down the 1911 rabbit hole). At one point I thought about getting a holster for it and it’s literally the same size as my Glock 34 (which is what cracks me up about people that say a Glock 34 is a *HUGE GUN* for competition only! They don’t know the Glock 34 is the same size constraints as a full-size 1911 so it could fit the box to be in IDPA (or whatever it was at the time). But, I never bought a AIWB holster for it because… I’m not going to carry it because it’s not best suited for what I need in a carry gun. It’s still capable - it’s still a gun that mirrors what the FBI HRT carried (though a bit more budget), and it still mirrors what Delta and others carried at a time.

It’s a subtle difference, but that’s what I think is missed here. There was a long thread about Mas Ayoob that we got into discussing confidence and competence with SouthNarc a few weeks back, etc. on page 10. I think folks like what they like sometimes and carry what they want as well.

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?55291-Massad-Ayoob-The-necessity-of-high-capacity-magazines/page10

Anyway, what you carry is your business. But, I think that’s the only distinction I’d like to add on the matter.

Back to work.

[4RNR]

I understand carry rotation to mean literally that......a bunch of gun that rotate for carry. Monday we start off with a HK USP 40. Tuesday is Glock 19, Wednesday feels like a Sig226. Thursday we have a HiPower and Friday is the end of the week and a chill day so something in a Shield or 365. This may translate into Saturday as well depending on what's going on but Sunday is reserved for the 1911, or maybe a 3in S&W 686+

That's is my understanding of carry rotation. Or some form of that. Maybe not every day but every few days or once a week .. but that's the general idea.

Rotating based on situation is different. I could never carry my EDC to a formal function.

Sent from my moto z4 using Tapatalk

[Ed L]

See I don’t agree Ed L.

I know this is nuanced, but I think there are legitimately folks who buy guns and have different guns and like carrying different guns.

I think all of us like carrying guns some (as evidence of our membership here), but I think some folks enjoy it from a perspective of what strikes their mood, etc.

It’s just two different schools of thought to me.

Some people carry guns that they think will suit them best in a defensive situation as the first criteria (with some caveats like what can they wear in their clothing, etc.). They probably like the gun as well (I doubt many dislike the gun they carry).

Some people carry guns that they like as the first criteria. They also look at it is as being armed and that’s sufficient (and it may be! We just don’t know what situation we’ll ever be in).

I understand that people have different interpretations of a carry rotation. I was just giving how I apply it to myself and my situation.

A potential problem that people can get into is that some guns operate differently with regard to things like manual safety, trigger reset, etc. which could lead to a problem if they ever need to use the gun in a defensive situation where they have to draw it and they are not sufficiently familiar with it or are used to shooting a different gun. Something like failing to disengage a safety or not allowing a trigger to fully reset because they are accustomed to shooting something with a much shorter Trigger reset, as Rex G described experiencing.

In my case, the carry guns have different triggers, but I've never hand a problem resetting a revolver trigger and the Khar's trigger feels like a smooth revolver pull. There is also tactile feel to the gun when you take it in your hand. Most people are not going to pick up a Smith & Wesson revolver and try to exert the same amount of trigger pressure that they would on a CZ match gun and think that something is wrong with their gun's trigger. I do know of people who failed to let the Ruger LCR's trigger out far enough to reset.

[WobblyPossum]

I think the randomly changing guns based on feelings kind of carry rotation only really negatively impacts people in the middle of the skill spectrum if we’re talking defensive gun use. The people at the bottom of the bell curve are so unskilled that it doesn’t matter what they’re using, they will shoot the guns equally poorly. The people at the top end of the bell curve like JCN are at such a high level that a 10-15% drop in ability caused by swapping guns still leaves them with a level of capability so far above what they’ll need in any winnable defensive encounter that it doesn’t matter anyway either. Sure, that 10% is a huge difference in competition and will definitely make the difference between winning or just placing near the top, but we’re talking about carry gun rotations so this is about defensive gun use and not competition. It’s the people in the “average” section of the bell curve who benefit the most from consistently training with and practicing with the same type of handgun. If they lose 10-15% of their ability by swapping guns, or the different index of the guns causes that first shot to miss its mark, that might be the only shot they get.

At this time I have two carry/duty handguns: a G19 and a G26. The G26 is primarily a pocket gun around the house or an ankle gun at work if I fee the need for a second handgun in addition to a rifle. Once I get a second RMR and send the G26 slide out for milling, the G26 will become my primary off-duty carry gun again. My choices are also limited by my employer. I don’t really like Glocks but the other duty-sized option is the P320 series which I like even less. I actually like the P365 series which is an approved option but I consider myself one of those people in the middle section of the skill level bell curve. The index between Glocks and Sigs is too different for me and I don’t trust my ability to go from a G19 during and enforcement action to a P365XL for the other 90% of my day without some transition time in between. I’m visiting my family for the holidays and got to put a few rounds through my brother’s P365 Spectre Comp on Monday. The dot is just not there when I present it because it points low compared to the G19 which is what I’m used to and where the majority of my training and practice is. I’m not authorized to modify even personally owned duty guns past changing out iron sights and getting slides professionally milled for optics so I can’t mess with the frame of a Glock to duplicate the Sig grip angle and I won’t be able to just transition back and forth between the two as they are.

[BehindBlueI's]

The people at the bottom of the bell curve are so unskilled that it doesn’t matter what they’re using, they will shoot the guns equally poorly.

Correct, but even at the lowest end of the skill spectrum there's concerns that likely trump the generally shit nature of their fundamentals:

1) Consider they are shooting themselves accidentally much more often than they are shooting bad guys. Gun ownership has expanded due to the uncertain times and we're seeing a rising number of unintended discharges resulting in injury to self or others as one would expect. It's fairly common to have 3-4 a week now, where it used to be more 2 a week. Shot in the off hand is by far the most common, but thighs/ass remains a popular choice. This is generally during routine admin handling, people shoot themselves at home way more often than on the range. They also get excited and put one in their thigh/ass when drawing under pressure in real world events by getting on the trigger super early. One individual saw his attacker coming (likely lover's triangle) while seated in his car, pulled, and shot himself *twice* before getting the gun up and firing out the window at his attacker, who he missed but who then fired rather blindly as he ran, so the only hits scored by either side was the defender popping his own legs. Rotating between guns with different manuals of arms can't be beneficial to preventing this.

2) Consider that not shooting at all is worse than shooting poorly. Despite the trope, you absolutely can miss fast enough to win. A starter pistol would win over a 1/3 of street encounters even if you don't count flight at display outcomes (bad guy runs when good guy shows and/or starts to draw firearm) due to bad guys fleeing at the first sight/sound of armed resistance. Pulling the trigger o a gun that was not functional resulted in several losses in the stats from my case files, though, most commonly due to empty chamber carry or manual safety not deactivated. Then they ate a bullet, got disarmed and beaten, got disarmed and raped. This was actually worse than pulling a gun and not firing, my assumption being the bad guy notes the trigger is pulled with no bang and instinctively jumps the person to keep them from getting the weapon functional whereas a pointed gun with no "click" or visible pulled trigger is still an unknown danger and better to flee. Guess on my part, I didn't interview suspects as to mindset on that sort of thing. Obviously different manual at arms hampers this.

Both of the above, btw, are why I often recommend revolvers to the low skill/low dedication wants a gun for protection crowd. Harder to shoot themselves with due to improper clearing, no manual safety, not picky on maintenance schedules, not picky on ammo selection for reliable function. While I get the urge to focus on shootability, not shooting themselves and presenting a gun that goes bang with the trigger pull is actually more important at that level, IMO, to their overall survivability and well being.

[Totem Polar]

I think the randomly changing guns based on feelings kind of carry rotation only really negatively impacts people in the middle of the skill spectrum if we’re talking defensive gun use.

I suspect that there is some truth to your observation. I can use myself as an example, as I consider myself a “true middle-of-the-road” shooter. I better define “true middle of the road.” By that I mean: I am so objectively better than the average gun owner as to be a chasm difference between us; I’m so much worse than the top of the pyramid elite shooters as to also be a chasm apart. I’ve seen this in local classes and at the range over the decades, as a majority of attendees look at me like I am from another species, while I look at the world’s best (eg. Miculek on a wheelie or Gabe White legendarily cleaning Rodgers from concealment) as a bridge too far for me.

In that sense, I opt for a consistent option over a “better” option. A good example is all the winter fat biking I’ve been doing on my holiday break this week and part of last—I’ve been out 5 times so far, and I bike out in the state park boonies with an HPG chest rig. I could easily grab something more capable and stuff it in there, eg. a G45 or similar, but I’m just putting the ol’ 640 Pro and a couple of speed loaders in the pouch instead, because a J-frame lifestyle has fully embraced me, whether I want it or not. I freely admit that a 5-shot .357 is so 90s-era in tactical thinking that I should probably be sporting a mullet, but in my case, it makes sense to just stick with “sort of barely good enough/better than nothing” over “carry rotation” since I have *a lot* of time on, and rounds through, J-frames over the years.

All to say, in the summer, when I have time to be on top of shooting, I might choose differently, but during the academic year, when I’m pretty much just shooting a weekly fun shoot, it makes sense to stick to one platform for everything, because, middling capability for switching platforms; the devil you know well.

If that makes sense.

Anyways, I digress. Carry on, all.

[Hambo]

soaking up endless hooks to the ribs from your Nicaraguan sparring partner named Nestor who used to get in bar fights for fun…..:p

Yeah, Nestor...he's the guy with neck and facial tattoos, right?

[JCN]

WobblyPossum I love your post.

I think it’s spot on.

I think most trainers fall in the spectrum you’re talking about (B/C) shooting which is still objectively very good.

I’d caution them to at least have an open mind to know / learn what they don’t know.

Sure we would love all people to be at least B/C but that’s not going to happen and like BBI said, you can miss fast enough for a significant portion of self defense encounters.

As a qualification, I personally am so uncomfortable with different indexes on carry guns that I require all my carry guns to point the same. For me, the neutral CZ grip is as close to universal as I can get and works well with revolvers and P365s. My trigger press is a DA trained press that is also universal across platforms and I ride safeties even when I don’t use them.

But if I were LEO, I would absolutely stick with Glocks of all different shapes and sizes because that angle is so particular to that ecosystem.

[WobblyPossum]

Correct, but even at the lowest end of the skill spectrum there's concerns that likely trump the generally shit nature of their fundamentals:

1) Consider they are shooting themselves accidentally much more often than they are shooting bad guys. Gun ownership has expanded due to the uncertain times and we're seeing a rising number of unintended discharges resulting in injury to self or others as one would expect. It's fairly common to have 3-4 a week now, where it used to be more 2 a week. Shot in the off hand is by far the most common, but thighs/ass remains a popular choice. This is generally during routine admin handling, people shoot themselves at home way more often than on the range. They also get excited and put one in their thigh/ass when drawing under pressure in real world events by getting on the trigger super early. One individual saw his attacker coming (likely lover's triangle) while seated in his car, pulled, and shot himself *twice* before getting the gun up and firing out the window at his attacker, who he missed but who then fired rather blindly as he ran, so the only hits scored by either side was the defender popping his own legs. Rotating between guns with different manuals of arms can't be beneficial to preventing this.

2) Consider that not shooting at all is worse than shooting poorly. Despite the trope, you absolutely can miss fast enough to win. A starter pistol would win over a 1/3 of street encounters even if you don't count flight at display outcomes (bad guy runs when good guy shows and/or starts to draw firearm) due to bad guys fleeing at the first sight/sound of armed resistance. Pulling the trigger o a gun that was not functional resulted in several losses in the stats from my case files, though, most commonly due to empty chamber carry or manual safety not deactivated. Then they ate a bullet, got disarmed and beaten, got disarmed and raped. This was actually worse than pulling a gun and not firing, my assumption being the bad guy notes the trigger is pulled with no bang and instinctively jumps the person to keep them from getting the weapon functional whereas a pointed gun with no "click" or visible pulled trigger is still an unknown danger and better to flee. Guess on my part, I didn't interview suspects as to mindset on that sort of thing. Obviously different manual at arms hampers this.

Both of the above, btw, are why I often recommend revolvers to the low skill/low dedication wants a gun for protection crowd. Harder to shoot themselves with due to improper clearing, no manual safety, not picky on maintenance schedules, not picky on ammo selection for reliable function. While I get the urge to focus on shootability, not shooting themselves and presenting a gun that goes bang with the trigger pull is actually more important at that level, IMO, to their overall survivability and well being.

When I was composting my post, I was thinking of having a rotation of guns that functioned the same way with regards to manual of arms. Either they all required working a safety or decocking lever or none of them did. With several posters responding that they made sure their carry guns all functioned the same way (present gun, press trigger, bang) it actually slipped my mind that some people probably have rotations consisting of completely different types of guns, some with safeties, some without. You bring up some really important points.

Your point #2 regarding defenders bringing guns to the fight that they couldn’t function and fire is definitely something to consider with regards to weapons with manual safeties. I think alternating guns with safeties and guns without safeties is probably a terrible idea and it would most likely harm the non-dedicated/non-enthusiast gun carrier. I completely agree with you that introducing a gun you can’t actually fire is an ingredient in a recipe for losing. Someone at the high end of the curve could probably handle alternating guns with and without safeties that need to be deactivated. Most people seem to be able to handle an AR with a manual safety even though their handgun doesn’t have one. I wonder if it’s because the brain knows “this is a long gun and it works differently than your handgun” and then engages the corresponding motor program. I don’t think it’s as easy with handguns because the brain just thinks “handgun” and not “this one has a safety that the other one doesn’t so we need to make sure we deactivate that.”

Shooting yourself while getting your gun into the fight is definitely something that would make an already bad day a whole lot worse. Guns with long trigger pulls like revolvers or DAO autos can mitigate that by allowing a larger margin for error before pressure on the trigger results in a gunshot which is why I think your recommendation of revolvers for the non-enthusiast is a good one. I’ve never met someone who had good, consistent trigger finger discipline who didn’t also have a decent amount of training under their belt. Keeping your finger off the trigger until you’ve decided to fire is counterintuitive. The gun is designed for your finger to be comfortable at the location of the trigger. This is actually why I’ve always told people I wish we taught firearms safety in schools when kids were younger. If you could get the four rules into their heads at an early age, they might actually stick and mean something.

[JAD]

I have weaned myself of rotation (which like others was driven by dress) by:
1) putting on real clothes when upright and not in the gym
2) continuing to build my wardrobe around carry
3) getting better holsters

im not judging, but for me I don’t understand wearing pants without a belt outside of the gym.

the rationale is less anti-rotation than anti-j frame.

the P365 really emerged as a favorite when I was floating because its manual of arms is identical to the 1911. Unfortunately its trigger is not, nor is its chambering.

in general I have been able to avoid drama with non-1911s by gripping them all the same way. My thumb rides an imaginary safety when I hold a G17.

[Totem Polar]

Yeah, Nestor...he's the guy with neck and facial tattoos, right?

OT, but, the best boxing coach I ever had was a Latino ex-con with “Fuck” and “You” tattooed in 2-inch letters on the front of his throat. Among other ink.

:)

[Trooper224]

Regarding semantics, I think carry battery is a better descriptor than carry rotation. I've seen the CR term widely used on hobbyist forums, where the gun is obviously a fashion accessory. "Carry Battery" implies a group of similar objects selected for differing contexts, at least in my mind.

[Totem Polar]

Regarding semantics, I think carry battery is better descriptor than carry rotation. I've seen the CR term widely used on hobbyist forums, where the gun is obviously a fashion accessory. "Carry Battery" implies a group of similar objects selected for differing contexts, at least in my mind.

Brilliant. Let’s adopt this.

[feudist]

Brilliant. Let’s adopt this.

Seconded.

Move to declare "rotation" to the same category as clips, racking pumpguns, chamber empty carry and "They all fall to hardball".

[GearFondler]

Seconded.

Move to declare "rotation" to the same category as clips, racking pumpguns, chamber empty carry and "They all fall to hardball".You left out Open Carry and Serpa holsters.

[TGS]

Relevant snippet from our departed founder:

https://pistol-training.com/the-rotation-a-pet-peeve/

[M2CattleCo]

Extreme dust? How does that determine what you carry? Just curious.

I stayed away from this thread because I don't understand the premise, but I had to ask.


I used to carry Sig P226 or P239 most of the time but if I was working in remote areas with a lot of dust I would carry a Glock lubed with dry lube as they were much easier to strip and clean.

I only have Glocks now.

[Borderland]

I used to carry Sig P226 or P239 most of the time but if I was working in remote areas with a lot of dust I would carry a Glock lubed with dry lube as they were much easier to strip and clean.

I only have Glocks now.

Why is a Glock not more susceptible to dust than a Sig? Lots of M-11's ( P-228) were used as standard military issue in places with lots of dust and sand like Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm thinking that if you field strip and clean regularly (always a good idea) you shouldn't have a problem.

[M2CattleCo]

Why is a Glock not more susceptible to dust than a Sig? Lots of M-11's ( P-228) were used as standard military issue in places with lots of dust and sand like Iraq and Afghanistan.

I'm thinking that if you field strip and clean regularly (always a good idea) you shouldn't have a problem.


The Sigs would have been fine for sure I just liked detail stripping the Glock a lot more.

[HeavyDuty]

The Sigs would have been fine for sure I just liked detail stripping the Glock a lot more.

I feel the same way. A Glock is basically a classy zip gun.

[mmc45414]

IMO another consideration is who is doing the rotating.

Most of the folks here have enough (varied) experience and are capable of performing at a high enough level that if they suffered a slight degradation from their peak ability they are probably going to be OK, outside of some funky outlier situation. I shoot some kind of timed drills with a pistol most every weekend, for the last few years typically one of my M&Ps. Last Sunday I shot one of my 1911s in a match for the first time in a few years (our annual Safe Queen 3 gun match) and did just fine (well, with the pistol anyway....).

[dogcaller]

Ain’t nobody making you read this thread, you know. :p ;)


We’re spoiled here at PF. I actually haven’t noticed any trolls in this thread.

[Bucky]

Late to the party, but lots of good discussion here (and still on topic 6 pages in, may be a PF first)

My random thoughts, I don’t consider it a carry rotation when you switch to different size guns for different circumstances. For example, I’ve got

1. 642 Pocket
2. G43 need more discretion
3. Mid size
A. G19
B. 92C
C. EDC X 9

So switching between 1, 2, or 3, to me is not a “rotation”, but switching from 3A, 3B, 3C IS. Someday I’d like to lock down a 3, as I have with 1 and 2.



2. People should carry the gun that they absolutely shoot the best so as not to take any reduction in life saving ability.


Well, that would be my SV Open gun, but that’s not really practical. Of course, I’m going to assume you didn’t mean that. So going by my practical choices the EDC X9 would be my choice. However, there is some comfort in the stress management qualities of a DA/SA. Then there’s times I really overthink things and wonder, what if the sear broke on the X9? There’s nothing on the Beretta that could break and make the gun go off.


I can provide one very specific example of an incompatibility of two pistols systems, at least in my hands. SouthNarc may or may not remember, but at my first ECQC, in 2005, I decided to switch carry rigs, during the lunch break. Morning was a Glock morning, then, afternoon was with my police duty rig, with my P229R DAK. I then embarrassed myself, in front of Craig, Paul Gomez, and everyone else. The short version: Trigger Reset IS A Thing.


Had a similar happen to me going from Glock to LEM. Then one day in a conversation with Todd Jarrett, he convinced me I should be shooting to trigger return, not trigger reset. After retracing myself, it was much easier to switch platforms, and I was able to retain shot to shot accuracy better, even with a Glock trigger.

Note: one thing I love about the Shadow 2 is it not only has a short reset, but a short return as well.

[JCN]

Well, that would be my SV Open gun, but that’s not really practical. Of course, I’m going to assume you didn’t mean that. So going by my practical choices the EDC X9 would be my choice.

YES!!

That is my point as well. I was pointing out the inconsistency with the people who say "carry what you shoot best and dress around it."

What's "practical" is a compromise by definition and past a certain skill level you're not getting much additional "life saving" quality for your discomfort.

My comment to the people who absolutely demand that people carry what they shoot best is that maybe they should train harder....


My carry guns are all vetted against an objective standard and not a percent of my personal handgunning best.


Also note that the TLG philosophy doesn't allow for picking a gun based on the clothing.


1911 most days but LCP when you feel like wearing tight jeans? Don’t. Wear. Tight. Jeans.

But most of us are picking smaller guns when we want to carry smaller guns.

We don't HAVE to pick smaller guns, it's purely a comfort and convenience and sometimes fashion thing.

If I don't want to wear a belt, then pocket gun to me.

I might get kilt on the street, but ya know... I doubt it'll be the deciding factor.

If someone takes that a step farther and wants to pick different color guns on different days? Who am I to judge?





It's like that old saying, an alcoholic is someone who drinks more than you.

[Warped Mindless]

Just an observation I’ve had and find amusing…

I know some very legit dudes who have been in multiple gunfights and many of them walk around with LCPs in their pockets. When asked why its usually some response of “Its all I really need/I’ll make do with it/“ etc.

I know some other very legit dudes who have been in multiple gunfights that all carry nothing smaller than a g19 sized gun, RDS, many times have lights on them, spare high capacity mags, etc. When asked why its usually some response of “Ive been in gunfights before and I know what they are like and I want to be ready.”

I find the opposite responses, all by legit dudes, to be amusing.

Most days I’m in the middle. I shoot my sig 365XL-Macro pretty good but not as great as some bigger guns. But I also realize that my awareness and tactics are going to likely be the deciding factor, not a slightly faster split time or a draw that is .20 seconds faster.

Recently I had an elevated threat level due to the possibility of a very real threat I had in my life and I opted for a p320 because I shoot it better. Seemed like a common sense approach. Back to the XL-Macro now.

[NWshooter]

I carry the LTT PX4 CC 99% of the time, I’m 6’8” so that makes it pretty easy to conceal.

On the rare occasion where I can’t carry it, I go with the P365, and I don’t love it.

DA/SA is my preference so if anyone has a recommendation for a P365 size DA/SA I am open to learn. Being completely honest, I have never looked for a smaller DA/SA because of the limited amount I carry something different.

[JAD]

That is my point as well. I was pointing out the inconsistency with the people who say "carry what you shoot best and dress around it." ….If someone takes that a step farther and wants to pick different color guns on different days? Who am I to judge?.

People sometimes don’t choose the best alternative in a given set because of competing priorities, but that doesn’t make the primary choice set equivalent.

A small gun is not as good as a big gun; pocket carry is not as good as belt carry. Differences can be below the threshold of mattering — ten rounds versus nine — or a serious mistake, like .380.

If self defense is more important than fashion and comfort, you’ll objectively be better served with a service pistol. If it’s not it’s not, but don’t pretend that makes an LCP as good as a G19.

[Warped Mindless]

People sometimes don’t choose the best alternative in a given set because of competing priorities, but that doesn’t make the primary choice set equivalent.

A small gun is not as good as a big gun; pocket carry is not as good as belt carry. Differences can be below the threshold of mattering — ten rounds versus nine — or a serious mistake, like .380.

If self defense is more important than fashion and comfort, you’ll objectively be better served with a service pistol. If it’s not it’s not, but don’t pretend that makes an LCP as good as a G19.

You can dress well AND carry a G19 sized gun if you are in shape and have the right gear.

I know people who think they have to dress “sloppy” to carry a decent size gun. You don’t.

[Latka Gravas]

You explained it as boredom. People reacted to that. If it's none of anyone's business why bother posting it on a discussion board...which exists to discuss things?

No people reacted because I said I carry different guns on a rotational basis-THAT is what twisted knickers around here. LOL!!!!

[TGS]

You explained it as boredom. People reacted to that. If it's none of anyone's business why bother posting it on a discussion board...which exists to discuss things?


No people reacted because I said I carry different guns on a rotational basis-THAT is what twisted knickers around here. LOL!!!!


Actually I can tell the difference. I shoot the gun I carry. I shoot at least once a week with a group of retired guys. So I carry one until I get bored with it and rotate to the next one......

I feel the troll is strong with this one.

[Latka Gravas]

Regarding semantics, I think carry battery is a better descriptor than carry rotation. I've seen the CR term widely used on hobbyist forums, where the gun is obviously a fashion accessory. "Carry Battery" implies a group of similar objects selected for differing contexts, at least in my mind.

I think your terminology is spot on and for me, far more accurate. I've narrowed my choice in carry firearms down to what I call a "point and pull interface". This is any gun that allows me to simply point at the target and pull the trigger. I don't need to disengage an external manual safety, prior to engaging the threat.

With all the exceptional "micro compact" guns that have reached the market, my minimum capacity for choosing a gun is 10 rounds. My G43 retired my 642 because it carried more ammo and reloaded much faster. My P365 retired my G43 because it's base capacity is 60+% greater.

I think we are lucky to live in the current age of firearms technology. When I was a dumb rookie, I carried a 5-shot, 2" revolver (with no reload) when I wore shorts and a t-shirt. (I live in the deep south, with the heat and humidity.) Today I currently carry a CR920 with a 407K. If I carry ONLY the two magazines that came with the gun, I am carrying roughly 50% more ammo than what I carried in uniform patrol! And I do so wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I am simply amazed at the abilities we have today.

[Latka Gravas]

I feel the troll is strong with this one.

You are entitled to your opinion.

For me I have a core group of guns that are very similar. I like them equally the same and shoot them equally the same. Tenths of a second on a timer really don't matter and neither does a small vs small group size in the real world.

So how should I decide which to carry and how often? The word I chose to use to describe my selection was "boredom". So what. There is not a standard police qualification course (never shot the FBI's course-but I did spent 2 years with the DEA as a TFO) that I did not score 95% or better. I maintain that standard today in retirement with the "micro compact" guns. Personally I think LE qualification standards are far to easy. But the reality is if is were not the way it is, 50% (if not more) of the LEO's working would simply not qualify.

[WobblyPossum]

People sometimes don’t choose the best alternative in a given set because of competing priorities, but that doesn’t make the primary choice set equivalent.

A small gun is not as good as a big gun; pocket carry is not as good as belt carry. Differences can be below the threshold of mattering — ten rounds versus nine — or a serious mistake, like .380.

If self defense is more important than fashion and comfort, you’ll objectively be better served with a service pistol. If it’s not it’s not, but don’t pretend that makes an LCP as good as a G19.

I think that’s also context dependent. Once you have both guns in your hands, a G19 is much easier to shoot and get accurate hits with than an LCP. If the temperatures are in the single digits and your G19 is buried under three layers while your LCP is in a pocket you’ve already got your hand in, the LCP is a much better tool to immediately respond to a deadly threat than the G19 is. Sometimes pocket carry and tiny guns are better than belt carry and service pistol sized guns.

[Trooper224]

I think your terminology is spot on and for me, far more accurate. I've narrowed my choice in carry firearms down to what I call a "point and pull interface". This is any gun that allows me to simply point at the target and pull the trigger. I don't need to disengage an external manual safety, prior to engaging the threat.

With all the exceptional "micro compact" guns that have reached the market, my minimum capacity for choosing a gun is 10 rounds. My G43 retired my 642 because it carried more ammo and reloaded much faster. My P365 retired my G43 because it's base capacity is 60+% greater.

I think we are lucky to live in the current age of firearms technology. When I was a dumb rookie, I carried a 5-shot, 2" revolver (with no reload) when I wore shorts and a t-shirt. (I live in the deep south, with the heat and humidity.) Today I currently carry a CR920 with a 407K. If I carry ONLY the two magazines that came with the gun, I am carrying roughly 50% more ammo than what I carried in uniform patrol! And I do so wearing shorts and a t-shirt. I am simply amazed at the abilities we have today.

When I became a cop I carried a revolver and two speedloaders with a total of eighteen rounds. When I retired I carried a primary sidearm with 52 rounds available and a 9mm BUG, with a rifle and shotgun, with around five hundred rounds for all the above in the car.

When I started as a young shooter I could choose from a wide range of revolvers, as long as I liked Smith &Wesson or Colt. Serious semi-autos were far fewer and no one had heard of plastic pistols.

Embarrassment of riches indeed.

[Latka Gravas]

When I became a cop I carried a revolver and two speedloaders with a total of eighteen rounds. When I retired I carried a primary sidearm with 52 rounds available and a 9mm BUG, with a rifle and shotgun, with around five hundred rounds for all the above in the car.

When I started as a young shooter I could choose from a wide range of revolvers, as long as I liked Smith &Wesson or Colt. Serious semi-autos were far fewer and no one had heard of plastic pistols.

Embarrassment of riches indeed.

About 20 years ago, I was instrumental in getting patrol rifles approved by me department. We got very few AR's to be issued out. When I was offered one, I turned it down. I said give it to *****. I picked this guy because he was young and had a young family. He didn't have the money to even think about buying an AR. I wanted another long gun out on the streets, so I carried one of my guns, after getting it approved.


You and I have walked many of the same streets during out time. (Is your body beat all to hell too?/! LOL!!!) It's very good to be retired!!!

[JAD]

I think that’s also context dependent. Once you have both guns in your hands, a G19 is much easier to shoot and get accurate hits with than an LCP. If the temperatures are in the single digits and your G19 is buried under three layers while your LCP is in a pocket you’ve already got your hand in, the LCP is a much better tool to immediately respond to a deadly threat than the G19 is. Sometimes pocket carry and tiny guns are better than belt carry and service pistol sized guns.

No, that doesn't seem like a reasonable reason to choose an LCP over a gun with a degree of adequacy. I absolutely agree that a coat pocket gun is a really good idea, but coat pockets are not trouser pockets, and there's no reason at all for that coat pocket gun to be an LCP.

There are circumstances that make small gun carry attractive -- for me usually it's running, or deep NPE. The problem that I personally have is that if I keep an inadequate gun like a J frame, or even a suboptimal gun like a P365, around for those purposes, I wind up wearing it all the time, because it's comfortable. I tell myself what I want to hear, because it's easy. It is work to carry a more appropriate pistol. For I do not that good which I will; but the evil which I hate, that I do.

[JCN]

People sometimes don’t choose the best alternative in a given set because of competing priorities, but that doesn’t make the primary choice set equivalent.

A small gun is not as good as a big gun; pocket carry is not as good as belt carry. Differences can be below the threshold of mattering — ten rounds versus nine — or a serious mistake, like .380.

If self defense is more important than fashion and comfort, you’ll objectively be better served with a service pistol. If it’s not it’s not, but don’t pretend that makes an LCP as good as a G19.

My point was “if self defense is more important”… then people should train to be better shooters.

A pocket revolver CAN ABSOLUTELY be better than a belt mounted gun.

I will challenge anyone to a speed and accuracy contest with them using a concealed belt gun and me with my hand already on my revolver in my pocket.

So again, my point falls along the lines of:

If I’m better with a G19 than a P365…

But I’m >>>>>>> better with a P365 than you with a G19…

Whose priorities are out of whack? This magic talisman thing goes both ways.

A G19 doesn’t shoot itself. Carrying a more capable gun with less capable skills isn’t any better.


My overall philosophy would be:

Shoot a Bakersfield 100 points on demand with your carry gun.


https://youtu.be/MFn7-9SSfNA

Any gun you can clean the COF, great. Carry it.

If you can’t clean the COF, train more.

And maybe consider not telling other people what they should carry.

[JCN]

If I were part of a special forces team that I had team mates depending on me and hostages depending on me and my marksmanship ability, I would train obsessively and carry the best performing weapon I could (or what I was limited to by job contracts).

If my self defense performance with a handgun was just as important…

Then why wouldn’t I train to a similar standard?

Regardless of what you carry, why aren’t “serious self defense handgun practitioners” better performers than they are?

Why do they get fixated on G19s and G17s over P365s over training to be better marksman at speed?

You can’t have it both ways. If it’s super duper serious and “life saving” then train your skills to match your equipment philosophy.

Or if it’s a magic talisman to supplement situational awareness and OODA loop disruption, then treat it as such.


People who carry a gun for fashion are in the same category as people dedicated to dressing around a full size gun that they shoot poorly.

Both are virtue signalers in opposite directions.

Brain is the most important.

Shooting skill is probably next important.

The gun probably matters far less.

My opinion only. Worth exactly what you paid for it.

“Serious self defense practitioners” touting the full size as the only option are as silly as the Open shooters in USPSA that show up with the latest greatest… but get crushed by guys with G19s.

If you’re serious, then train seriously. Gun doesn’t matter much.

[TGS]

Why do they get fixated on G19s and G17s over P365s over training to be better marksman at speed?


I don't think it's fair to summarize the conversation in an either/or fashion, or that people in this conversation are fixated on guns instead of skill....nor do I see JAD telling people what to carry. I can carry my Glock 19 comfortably everyday, and so I generally do because I am more capable with it than a smaller gun....regardless of the fact that with my Glock 19 I'm still not as good as you with a <insert lack of humility here>. My choice to carry a Glock 19 is not in lieu of training.

That's rational thinking, not a logical fallacy.

[JCN]

I don't think it's fair to summarize the conversation in an either/or fashion, or that people in this conversation are fixated on guns instead of skill....nor do I see JAD telling people what to carry. I can carry my Glock 19 comfortably everyday, and so I generally do because I am more capable with it than a smaller gun....regardless of the fact that with my Glock 19 I'm still not as good as you with a <insert lack of humility here>. My choice to carry a Glock 19 is not in lieu of training.

That's rational thinking, not a logical fallacy.

I think a G19 is a solid gun.

But I did get the sense that JAD was telling people not to carry LCPs or pocket pistols.

And from his journal he may have extrapolated his own performance degradation with a P365 to others.

My point was: what if someone with less skill than you said you were uncommitted to carry because you didn’t carry a G17 or G34 and you were just dressing for convenience.

You’re comfortable with a G19 over a G34 because you shoot it “well enough.”

Where someone puts that line is a personal decision. Not respecting that personal decision and only contextualizing in their own shooting ability or lack thereof is where people break down.

That goes back to the Carry rotation.

Past a certain skill level, it really doesn’t matter for a casual CCWr

[JAD]

But I did get the sense that @JAD (https://pistol-forum.com/member.php?u=1359) was telling people not to carry LCPs or pocket pistols.

And from his journal he may have extrapolated his own performance degradation with a P365 to others.
.

I said that LCPs were objectively less good than service pistols. You can extend that by inference to J frames and P365s and you won’t be too wrong, though it’s a matter of degrees.

One of the problems with talking about objective truth is that people
tend to assume you’re applying it to them as a standard independent of their personal context. Fallen world and all that, but I don’t think it should stop
people from asserting truths when relevant

[JCN]

I said that LCPs were objectively less good than service pistols. You can extend that by inference to J frames and P365s and you won’t be too wrong, though it’s a matter of degrees.

One of the problems with talking about objective truth is that people
tend to assume you’re applying it to them as a standard independent of their personal context. Fallen world and all that, but I don’t think it should stop
people from asserting truths when relevant

That is true but answer the question that we have been asking:

Why not carry a 45 ounce competition gun since I shoot that better than any other handgun?

Objectively you would shoot a number of other guns better than the gun you chose but at some point we have to make a “good enough” determination for ourselves.

TGS I have no doubt you would clean the Bakersfield with your G19.

Even when not explicit, I get the sense you have a minimum performance standard you have to achieve to be comfortable carrying and anything above that standard may not be worth it for you? That’s the way it is for me, personally. Except for certain circumstances.

[TGS]

My point was: what if someone with less skill than you said you were uncommitted to carry because you didn’t carry a G17 or G34 and you were just dressing for convenience.


I'd say they're right, because objectively it would require more commitment on my part to carry that G17 or G34....just as it'd take more commitment to be a better shooter than I currently am.



TGS I have no doubt you would clean the Bakersfield with your G19.

Even when not explicit, I get the sense you have a minimum performance standard you have to achieve to be comfortable carrying and anything above that standard may not be worth it for you? That’s the way it is for me, personally. Except for certain circumstances.

IDK, I've never shot the Bakersfield. I have my current desired proficiency set at the point where things start becoming inconsistent, because more effort than that and I get burned out. I like shooting, but it becomes more of a chore than enjoyable at that point. I used to shoot 800 rounds a week and got completely burnt out, regardless of the fact I was a better shooter at that level.

[JCN]

I'd say they're right, because objectively it would require more commitment on my part to carry that G17 or G34....just as it'd take more commitment to be a better shooter than I currently am.

Exactly! Just like nobody can tell you to spend more time shooting (it probably won’t matter) you can’t just tell people to carry full service guns (because it won’t really matter).

There’s a certain point where skill and equipment doesn’t really matter.