IDPA & Calibers - Thread Split

[Wheeler]

IDPA is a great organization and a well organized league. Don't ever threaten the 1911's though. Remember all the flap about 10mm and .400 Corbon's competing in CDP?

[jlw]

IDPA is a great organization and a well organized league. Don't ever threaten the 1911's though. Remember all the flap about 10mm and .400 Corbon's competing in CDP?

They are just scared of the GAP...

[Wheeler]

They are just scared of the GAP...

As well they should be....

[gtmtnbiker98]

I have pondered this question and feel that you'd be okay with this setup at a local Match but a Sanctioned Match you'd be playing the odds of legality to shoot in SSP. It would be up to individual MD interpretation until Robert Ray provides guidance from IDPA HQ.

[jlw]

As well they should be....

I would dearly love to run my GAPs against the 1911 crowd. Even more, I'd love to see Sevigny running a 37 against the 1911 crowd.

[jar]

I see no reason not to allow anything that makes major power factor in CDP. CDP would just be ESP with major. Of course, I don't run the show.

[Wheeler]

Bill Wilson was pretty adament that this was their game, their rules, if you don't like it, go start your own game elsewhere.

I understand that and play along accordingly... sort of. I disagree with a lot of the rulings they have made in the past few years, as well as the methodology in posting those rulings. But, it's not my game, I just show up to play with my ball.

JLWeems,

You're one of many. There are a lot of guys that have .40's 10mm's etc. that want to run against the 1911's. I don't really understand the logic behind the ruling. Unless it's preservation?

Wheeler

[jlw]

JLWeems,

You're one of many. There are a lot of guys that have .40's 10mm's etc. that want to run against the 1911's. I don't really understand the logic behind the ruling. Unless it's preservation?

Wheeler

Fear. :)

[theblacknight]

At the time, I dont think Wilson made a 10mm gun. It was self preservation!

[Wheeler]

I'm going to back up on what I said earlier. (JLWeems, write this down). I think that IDPA does not want a major/minor system like USPSA/IPSC. Even though the break between the two has been several years ago, from what I can tell there are still some pretty strong feelings, at least on the IDPA side of things.

[HeadHunter]

You're one of many. There are a lot of guys that have .40's 10mm's etc. that want to run against the 1911's. I don't really understand the logic behind the ruling. Unless it's preservation?

Back when this issue came up 10 years ago, I bought a .400 CorBon barrel and dies and challenged all the 10mm guys to show up at the Nationals with their 10mms to show me what they've got. What a waste of money; not a one had enough balls to stand and deliver. I was the only one at the 2001 Nationals with that flavor of gun. The 10mm never was competitive and never will be. They're no worse off in ESP than they were in CDP. It was all about 'mine is bigger (more powerful) than yours.'

Those loudmouths were no better than the Occupiers; just rabble rousers full of hot air.

The Pathetic Ancient Religion at its worst.

[jlw]

Joyce Wilson sent out an email this week about "Tiger Teams" that will be reviewing the rule book along with some other things. Of course this has led to threads on many boards. Perhaps the most often suggested rule change is CDP being based on power factor instead the lone specific caliber.

[jetfire]

You know, I used to want to see .40 get moved to CDP, but to be frank I've come around on that one. I'd much rather leave CDP to the .45s and let the other calibers stay where they are.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that one of the projects I'm working on next year is an entire year of CDP using a Gen 4 Glock 21.

[Wheeler]

You know, I used to want to see .40 get moved to CDP, but to be frank I've come around on that one. I'd much rather leave CDP to the .45s and let the other calibers stay where they are.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that one of the projects I'm working on next year is an entire year of CDP using a Gen 4 Glock 21.

Does that include. 45 GAP?

[jlw]

You know, I used to want to see .40 get moved to CDP, but to be frank I've come around on that one. I'd much rather leave CDP to the .45s and let the other calibers stay where they are.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that one of the projects I'm working on next year is an entire year of CDP using a Gen 4 Glock 21.

The .40SW holds no interest for me regardless of what division it is in, but I was searching for a CDP pistol recently, and I read your G21 vs. M&P45 work with interest as I recently went through the same decision process. While I am a "Glock guy", I went with the M&P45 with an Apex sear. I'll add the RAM when it is released. The G21 in each of the available configurations was just too big for my hands. I could manage the 30SF somewhat, but the M&P 45 fits me nicely.

Check out the triggers from www.GlockTriggers.com as part of your project.

Disclosure: I have done some technical writing and marketing work for GlockTriggers.com.

[jetfire]

I have to say, I am really liking the Gen4 G21 so far.

[KeeFus]

One of my suggestions on the IDPA forum was to include 40, 10mm, etc in CDP and to raise the PF for that division. Mouse fart rounds really piss me off...if you're gonna shoot a .45 (aka manly pistol) then be a man and shoot full power ammo. :cool: And it does upset the 1911 guys when someone using an M&P/Glock wins in CDP. :D

GFA's should be included into SSP since Glock is now making a beavertail for the Gen 4's.

[NickA]

Joyce Wilson sent out an email this week about "Tiger Teams" that will be reviewing the rule book along with some other things. Of course this has led to threads on many boards. Perhaps the most often suggested rule change is CDP being based on power factor instead the lone specific caliber.

The co-leader of the tiger team project SO's at my local matches and I heard him discussing this with another shooter yesterday. Don't quote me but I think he said they'd shy away from a major /minor system because of the scoring. They did discuss some alternatives (which I didn't get to hear), so I'd guess it's come up enough already that it will get looked at.


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[jetfire]

One of my suggestions on the IDPA forum was to include 40, 10mm, etc in CDP and to raise the PF for that division. Mouse fart rounds really piss me off...if you're gonna shoot a .45 (aka manly pistol) then be a man and shoot full power ammo. :cool: And it does upset the 1911 guys when someone using an M&P/Glock wins in CDP. :D

GFA's should be included into SSP since Glock is now making a beavertail for the Gen 4's.

I do think the PF for CDP should be 170 at least, no more of this nancy-boy 165 PF.

[JV_]

This thread was split from the Grip Force IDPA thread.

[jar]

I do think the PF for CDP should be 170 at least, no more of this nancy-boy 165 PF.

I like that the power factors are the same between IDPA and USPSA and think they should stay that way.

[jetfire]

Why? I can't think of anyone I know who shoots Single Stack and CDP who doesn't load to at least a 170 PF "just in case."

[ToddG]

Given that the expected disparity between CDP, ESP, and SSP rarely manifests, how about just having two simple semiauto divisions:

10rd capacity, 125 PF
8rd capacity, 165 PF

Seriously, if this is the biggest issue the "Tiger Teams" see, then they're missing the forest.

[jetfire]

That would be WAAAAY too simple.

The Tiger Teams are actually set up to address a number of different issues. There are separate teams for everything from re-writing the rulebook, divisions/classification, equipment, and even social media and online engagement. I think it's more that shooters tend to get hung up on having their pet cartridge legalized for division X or division Y.

[KeeFus]

I do think the PF for CDP should be 170 at least, no more of this nancy-boy 165 PF.

I've had more people ask me what the hell I was thinking when I wrote that. I actually took it from Vickers @ the Carolina Cup. He mentioned that when they originally started IDPA they debated about the PF for CDP. Ultimately Bill ended the discussion...and 165,000 it is. I really don't get why other calibers have never been allowed in CDP...unless it's a penis envy thing.

He also mentioned that the tac-load or RWR was not intended to be used in IDPA the way it is now. It was originally intended to keep you hot between stages. Somehow, that got screwed up as well. Unless MD's are given that discretion they (IDPA) will never make ranges hot so that's a non-issue.

In all seriousness though, if it stays the same I will have no heartburn over it...since I'm shooting CDP this year (2012) what I should do is have a buddly load me up some that just surpass the PF...nah, I just can't do it. :p

[Wheeler]

Back when this issue came up 10 years ago, I bought a .400 CorBon barrel and dies and challenged all the 10mm guys to show up at the Nationals with their 10mms to show me what they've got. What a waste of money; not a one had enough balls to stand and deliver. I was the only one at the 2001 Nationals with that flavor of gun. The 10mm never was competitive and never will be. They're no worse off in ESP than they were in CDP. It was all about 'mine is bigger (more powerful) than yours.'

Those loudmouths were no better than the Occupiers; just rabble rousers full of hot air.

The Pathetic Ancient Religion at its worst.

I remember that Headhunter. THat was also about the time I gave serious consideration to buying a Coonan for the same reason. Fortunately I saved my money. :) Too bad the egos get in the way of the sport sometimes.

[DocGKR]

Stupid games with illogical rules that do not reflect reality...

[jlw]

Given that the expected disparity between CDP, ESP, and SSP rarely manifests, how about just having two simple semiauto divisions:

10rd capacity, 125 PF
8rd capacity, 165 PF



If off the shelf 9mm ammo would reach the 125pf readily, I would go along with this. I mentioned something similar above with four divisions with a stock and a modified in each power factor, but when it comes down to it, if your classification system is valid, what difference does a magwell really make?

[ToddG]

He mentioned that when they originally started IDPA they debated about the PF for CDP. Ultimately Bill ended the discussion...and 165,000 it is.

You have to remember that in the beginning you had to make power factor out of your gun. Since the idea was to encourage folks to shoot the compact guns they most often carried in real life, the power floor had to be low.


I really don't get why other calibers have never been allowed in CDP...unless it's a penis envy thing.

Very specifically, because the belief was that a 10mm loaded to the power floor would be far easier to shoot -- and probably more reliable -- than a .45 loaded to the power floor, and as such 10mm would dominate CDP. Since CDP was set up "for the 1911 guys" to begin with, it made sense that it be written around the .45 instead of other calibers. In fairness to IDPA, changing the rule would have catered to the three guys who actually carried 10mm and a bunch of gamers who were willing to go out and buy new guns. It would have hurt the 99% of 1911 guys who already owned and shot .45-cal guns.


He also mentioned that the tac-load or RWR was not intended to be used in IDPA the way it is now. It was originally intended to keep you hot between stages.

The first class I ever took from Ken Hackathorn was right around the time IDPA was getting off the ground. He commented back then that IDPA would do for the tac load what IPSC had done for the speed reload: make it into a religion that people thought was the only right way.


If off the shelf 9mm ammo would reach the 125pf readily,

What off the shelf 9mm ammo won't make 125pf out of a G34? That's all your ammo is required to do. It doesn't have to make PF out of your gun. It has to make PF out of the gun with the longest legal barrel for the division. Presently that is a G34 for both ESP and SSP.

[jar]

Why? I can't think of anyone I know who shoots Single Stack and CDP who doesn't load to at least a 170 PF "just in case."

If the PF is 170, then people will need to load to 175 for safety.

Sent from my PG06100 using Tapatalk

[jetfire]

That's fair.

RE: 9mm ammo; we had a bunch of the Federal Champion 115 stuff that wouldn't consistently make a 125 power factor out of my G34. I don't know if it was that lot or something, but it was coming in pretty regularly at a 115-120ish PF.

[RickB]

One of my suggestions on the IDPA forum was to include 40, 10mm, etc in CDP and to raise the PF for that division. Mouse fart rounds really piss me off...if you're gonna shoot a .45 (aka manly pistol) then be a man and shoot full power ammo. :cool: And it does upset the 1911 guys when someone using an M&P/Glock wins in CDP. :D

GFA's should be included into SSP since Glock is now making a beavertail for the Gen 4's.

Shoot full-power ammo out of a 3" gun, and it makes about 165,000 power factor. I shoot my compact a few matches every year, but probably would not if I had to load +P in order to make a more manly power factor; does it really make sense for those shooting realistic carry guns to have to load extra-hot to compete against the 42oz, 5" guns shooting downloaded ammo? The wimpy power factor is about the only thing making it even somewhat attractive to shoot real carry guns in IDPA. Maybe we need a "carry" division, with max barrel length of 3.5", max weight of 30 ounces . . . I guess it would have to be a "category", within each of the auto pistol divisions, with powerfactors adjusted for the short barrel.

[ToddG]

AGAIN: Power Factor in IDPA is measured in a pistol of the longest available legal length for the appropriate Division, it is not measured from the competitor's own gun. So it doesn't matter if your gun makes a PF of 155 from your pistol as long as it makes 165 from a 5" 1911, G34/G35, etc.

[jetfire]

Generally at matches the calibration guns will be a 1911 for .45s, a Glock 34 for 9mm. .40 is rare enough in IDPA that I've been to major matches that didn't have an equipment gun for .40s, so those shooters had to chrony out of their own guns.

[RickB]

AGAIN: Power Factor in IDPA is measured in a pistol of the longest available legal length for the appropriate Division, it is not measured from the competitor's own gun. So it doesn't matter if your gun makes a PF of 155 from your pistol as long as it makes 165 from a 5" 1911, G34/G35, etc.

I understand the rule, but now that clubs are no longer responsible for providing a 5" gun at chrono, it makes it a little trickier for the competitor. If you shoot a short gun at a sanctioned match, you have to make power factor in your gun, bring a 5" gun for chrono, or arrange for someone else to shoot your ammo through their 5" gun.

[ToddG]

I understand the rule, but now that clubs are no longer responsible for providing a 5" gun at chrono, it makes it a little trickier for the competitor. If you shoot a short gun at a sanctioned match, you have to make power factor in your gun, bring a 5" gun for chrono, or arrange for someone else to shoot your ammo through their 5" gun.

I wasn't aware of that change. What an idiotic rule. "Your gun only has to make PF through a 5-inch but you need to own a 5-inch to get that benefit." So much for being an inexpensive way to start competition for the guy who only has a short-barreled carry gun...

[Wheeler]

I wasn't aware of that change. What an idiotic rule. "Your gun only has to make PF through a 5-inch but you need to own a 5-inch to get that benefit." So much for being an inexpensive way to start competition for the guy who only has a short-barreled carry gun...

On the flip side, it's a rather expensive proposition for clubs hosting sanctioned matches to have multiple guns available for chrono purposes. Having said that, I have yet to shoot a sanctioned match in which someone was DQed because they weren't able to find someone with a larger gun for chrono purposes. That's not to say they didn't have DQ's for low PF, but they tried every way possible to get their ammo to pass or meet PF. I've even seen the chrono table hold ammo from a competitor, send them on their way to shoot, and wait for another competitor to show up with a larger gun. At our Wheelgun Championship this year, the chrono guy brought out his personal 686 for chrono purposes.

It's really not that hard to make PF in the respective divisions. Having a limited budget doesn't disallow a person from doing some research. As far as I'm concerned, if your going to start shooting sanctioned matches, you've moved beyond the "inexpensive way to start shooting matches" stage and placed yourself into the serious realm of competition, regardless of shooter performance.

Wheeler

[ToddG]

On the flip side, it's a rather expensive proposition for clubs hosting sanctioned matches to have multiple guns available for chrono purposes.

Really? It seems to me that a club that can't find a G34 and a 5" 1911 for chrono purposes might not be a good choice for running a major sanctioned match.

[Wheeler]

Really? It seems to me that a club that can't find a G34 and a 5" 1911 for chrono purposes might not be a good choice for running a major sanctioned match.

And a G35, and a 4" .38 and let's not forget a 4" 610 and a 625. Those are just the major systems. By my calculations we're well over 2 grand in guns to be on hand in case a shooter didn't do their research and brought light ammo. I'll respectfully disagree with you on this Todd. Like I said earlier, if a shooter is going to jump into the world of sanctioned competitions, they've moved beyond the "starting out" phase and should be prepared accordingly.

[jetfire]

If I had a dollar for every person I'd seen shooting a 610 at major matches in the 4 years I've been shooting major matches I would have exactly 1 dollar.

[jar]

Really? It seems to me that a club that can't find a G34 and a 5" 1911 for chrono purposes might not be a good choice for running a major sanctioned match.

The part I never got is who wants to volunteer up their guns to shoot someone off the street's janky ass reloads.

[ToddG]

The part I never got is who wants to volunteer up their guns to shoot someone off the street's janky ass reloads.

I'd not thought of that, and it is a very fair point.

Still, it rankles to think that someone shooting 115gr WWB out of his carry G26 should be required to buy a G34 just to guarantee he'll make PF if he wants to go to a sanctioned match. Unlike a lot of sports, there are plenty of "average Joes" who go to state and regional matches.

[fuse]

The part I never got is who wants to volunteer up their guns to shoot someone off the street's janky ass reloads.

This. And I'm a guy that makes his own janky ass reloads.

[rsa-otc]

Many National Champions load their ammo.

[PPGMD]

Still, it rankles to think that someone shooting 115gr WWB out of his carry G26 should be required to buy a G34 just to guarantee he'll make PF if he wants to go to a sanctioned match. Unlike a lot of sports, there are plenty of "average Joes" who go to state and regional matches.

I guarantee that there are a dozen Glock 34s at any sanctioned match. And if you are shooting factory ammo I doubt that anyone would have an issue letting you barrow their gun for the chrono stage.

[KeeFus]

Note to self: Never shoot a classifier in duty gear. :mad:

[jetfire]

I can't imagine that duty pouches are easy to do speed reloads from.

[KeeFus]

I can't imagine that duty pouches are easy to do speed reloads from.

I dry-fire practiced all week knowing I was gonna do the classifier today. Holster I ordered hasn't come in yet so I did it in duty gear. CDP/SS (just barely...as if it matters) was the final result. 2 Missed SHO head shots (Stage 1; string 7) didnt help either. Also used old carry ammo (hydra shok) which put the PF up there a ways...somewhere around 190,000 PF.

I found myself trying to rush and thats when the shit really went south. Oh well, looks like 2012 will be a match bump year.

[jlw]

Note to self: Never shoot a classifier in duty gear. :mad:


I dry-fire practiced all week knowing I was gonna do the classifier today. Holster I ordered hasn't come in yet so I did it in duty gear. CDP/SS (just barely...as if it matters) was the final result. 2 Missed SHO head shots (Stage 1; string 7) didnt help either. Also used old carry ammo (hydra shok) which put the PF up there a ways...somewhere around 190,000 PF.

I found myself trying to rush and thats when the shit really went south. Oh well, looks like 2012 will be a match bump year.

If you are going to compete in duty gear, an argument could be made for classifying in duty gear.

[jetfire]

There are no strings on the classifier that call for SHO head shots. Stage 1-7 is two shots to the body of each target, strong hand only. If your SO said they were head shots, they were incorrect and you should have an opportunity to reclassify shooting the course correctly.

[KeeFus]

There are no strings on the classifier that call for SHO head shots. Stage 1-7 is two shots to the body of each target, strong hand only. If your SO said they were head shots, they were incorrect and you should have an opportunity to reclassify shooting the course correctly.

That was my bad. I meant string 4 where I missed 2 head shots on T-1. Then I missed SHO... Bad day all around.

[KeeFus]

If you are going to compete in duty gear, an argument could be made for classifying in duty gear.

I shot the club match with my M&P 9mm and did well. Put on the duty gear and the wheels fell off. Not much of an experiment but I'm convinved that the duty gear actually slows you down. Shooting in duty gear is a good thing because it builds muscle memory. Speaking from a purely competitive aspect I don't think you will be very competitive when you get to the upper levels (EX & MA) because losing a few tenths of a second over 10 or 12 stages will add up. For instance, my mag change yesterday on stage 2, string 3 (El prez) was just over 2.5 seconds. I can complete a mag change without concealment in ~1.5 seconds easily so I'm losing a second per mag change and over the course of a sanctioned match I'd lose a lot of time. My duty gear is a 6360 and the mag pouch is the Model 72 (http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=72) which has a pouch behind the mag's to hold your cuffs. That combo really dicks up your mag changes because the flaps don't wanna move any further than the cuffs (they don't bend very far after contacting the cuffs).

Another issue with the duty gear rule is do LEO's really use their duty gear or is it what they're saying is duty gear. I've seen a guy come to sanctioned matches wearing "my duty gear" and found out later that their duty gear included a Safariland 070 and a mag pouch with flaps. They weren't using that in the match...they were using a 6320 and an open top mag pouch.

[jlw]

I shot the club match with my M&P 9mm and did well. Put on the duty gear and the wheels fell off. Not much of an experiment but I'm convinved that the duty gear actually slows you down. Shooting in duty gear is a good thing because it builds muscle memory. Speaking from a purely competitive aspect I don't think you will be very competitive when you get to the upper levels (EX & MA) because losing a few tenths of a second over 10 or 12 stages will add up. For instance, my mag change yesterday on stage 2, string 3 (El prez) was just over 2.5 seconds. I can complete a mag change without concealment in ~1.5 seconds easily so I'm losing a second per mag change and over the course of a sanctioned match I'd lose a lot of time. My duty gear is a 6360 and the mag pouch is the Model 72 (http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=72) which has a pouch behind the mag's to hold your cuffs. That combo really dicks up your mag changes because the flaps don't wanna move any further than the cuffs (they don't bend very far after contacting the cuffs).

Another issue with the duty gear rule is do LEO's really use their duty gear or is it what they're saying is duty gear. I've seen a guy come to sanctioned matches wearing "my duty gear" and found out later that their duty gear included a Safariland 070 and a mag pouch with flaps. They weren't using that in the match...they were using a 6320 and an open top mag pouch.

I compete using duty gear, but I am using exactly what I wear on duty; however, I do get to choose what I wear.

In a previous life, I carried in a 070 on duty. I could draw pretty well from it. The covered mag pouches wouldn't be all that fun for IDPA though.

[ToddG]

If you are going to compete in duty gear, an argument could be made for classifying in duty gear.

If you carry in duty gear and your life may depend on your skill when carrying in duty gear, an argument could be made for competing in duty gear. :cool:


Another issue with the duty gear rule is do LEO's really use their duty gear or is it what they're saying is duty gear.

When we were still running IDPA matches at the NRA, we once had a nationally-known competitor (who was not a LEO) show up wearing a Safariland range holster and open mag pouches on a competition belt... along with his Reserve Deputy badge. He said it was his "duty gear" because his duty responsibility was range training and it's what he wore when teaching. I'm not sure what was more disappointing: the fact that he felt he needed to cheat at a club level match where there was only one other Master-class shooter; or, that he felt it was appropriate to teach cops how to shoot while wearing tricked out slick competition gear.

[jlw]

If you carry in duty gear and your life may depend on your skill when carrying in duty gear, an argument could be made for competing in duty gear. :cool:



Roger that.

[Wheeler]

If you carry in duty gear and your life may depend on your skill when carrying in duty gear, an argument could be made for competing in duty gear. :cool:



When we were still running IDPA matches at the NRA, we once had a nationally-known competitor (who was not a LEO) show up wearing a Safariland range holster and open mag pouches on a competition belt... along with his Reserve Deputy badge. He said it was his "duty gear" because his duty responsibility was range training and it's what he wore when teaching. I'm not sure what was more disappointing: the fact that he felt he needed to cheat at a club level match where there was only one other Master-class shooter; or, that he felt it was appropriate to teach cops how to shoot while wearing tricked out slick competition gear.

That being said, there are quite a few, myself included that shoul be competing with pocket guns. :eek:

[jetfire]

I am actually going to make an effort to use my IDPA gun this year as my EDC. Which is going to be sporty, because I'm shooting a Glock 21 in CDP.

[jar]

That being said, there are quite a few, myself included that shoul be competing with pocket guns. :eek:

We had a guy show up for the first time to an open IDPA practice session last night shooting a J-frame reloading with speed strips from a pocket. I'll be interested to see if he keeps doing it, goes to a gamer gun, or rethinks his carry choices.

[Wheeler]

We had a guy show up for the first time to an open IDPA practice session last night shooting a J-frame reloading with speed strips from a pocket. I'll be interested to see if he keeps doing it, goes to a gamer gun, or rethinks his carry choices.

I would ne interested in a follow up in that. After attempting Headhunter's five to the fifth drill I've been giving my carrry choice some thought. I really like the LCR, so I'm trying to work around that platform. Finding decent reloading options has been a challenge.

[ford.304]

I shot my carry revolver out of an IWB holster with speed loaders in my pants pockets my first IDPA match...

Mostly it taught me that going with a revolver in any way that is easily carried means you are pretty much committed to the fight being over in <6 shots, unless you want your belt to jingle when you walk.

I still find it strange that I can conceal a full-sized 4" revolver so much easier than any speed loader carrier I've found.

[rsa-otc]

Try the Safariland holders that have loader straddle the belt. I carry 2 loaders just behind my holster. With a little work you would be surprised how fast you can become. I'm no Jerry M. but I usually beat most average auto shooters in reloading. Where I lose the battle in IDPA is that you load more often.

[Wheeler]

Along that vein, I'm hoping the tiger teams recommend 7 & 8 shot revolvers be allowed in ESR.

[NickA]

Along that vein, I'm hoping the tiger teams recommend 7 & 8 shot revolvers be allowed in ESR.

There's a thread on the IDPA forum tracking all the suggestions that have been made, if it's not there you can email them to add it.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk

[ford.304]

Try the Safariland holders that have loader straddle the belt. I carry 2 loaders just behind my holster. With a little work you would be surprised how fast you can become. I'm no Jerry M. but I usually beat most average auto shooters in reloading. Where I lose the battle in IDPA is that you load more often.

Thanks for the tip. Those clips seem cheap enough to be worth trying. I'd tried three or four different other systems, but all of them were completely outside the belt.

[rsa-otc]

If you like this type of system, for EDC I use the duty pouches that have a snap closure for positive retention.

http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/duty/speedloaders.aspx