Ardent HK man reveals his Glockian slip...

[BaiHu]

Given that LL's thread has been 'fixing the Gen 4' (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19739-LL-s-quot-Almost-Guaranteed-to-Work-fixes-for-Gen4-Glock-9mm-issues-quot), I might need one from the respected PF crew on the Gen 3.

That being said, let me spin my yarn.

I've shot a P30 for almost 6 years now. Started with a V3 and then moved to a V2. Quick breakdown as to why:

1) P30 b/c I can reach all of the controls with both hands.
2) V3, b/c I learned that way so stayed that way. Best FAST around 6.7X at AFHF in 2012
3) V2, b/c I figured I'd try a new trigger to see if it helped push my limits. Best FAST not too long ago 5.62 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32-Fundamentals-Accuracy-amp-Speed-Test-(F-A-S-T-)/page35&highlight=Fundamentals%2C+accuracy%2C).

What got me to go all half-Glocked? I've owned a Gen 3 G19 and I've never really shot it strictly b/c I practice 95% of the time from holster (AIWB) and just don't have one for the G19 and I had some problems with the Glock when I first shot it. They were:

1) Grip angle didn't 'suit me'.
2) The purist in me felt like the SFA gun was a 'cheater' gun.
3) Not being a LEO or MIL, I felt I needed to work on the Indian and not the arrow first and foremost.
4) Can't reach the slide release and mag release with either hand easily.

With all those negatives, why now?

1) I ordered a Gadget. As much for supporting Todd/Tom/PT&F as to finally try a Glock from Appendix.
2) Once I ordered the Gadget, a realization occurred: if I'm okay with a Glock at AIWB, w/ or w/o the Gadget, I must be feeling comfortable.
3) I grabbed an older JMCK AIWB and started dry drawing and reloading. I felt smitten immediately.

So, how'd I shoot it? Not badly. Not badly at all. Of course there's the 'new gun' concentration, but it was more the two things I hated about the Glock (grip angle and trigger) that I instantly loved after spending the last 6 years in trigger travel.

I compared my Glock and P30 alongside a friend's VP9. I didn't run any of them timed, I just went for sight tracking and accuracy.

Shooting 2" circles at 5 yds with one initial sight picture and then tracking the remaining 5:

Glock: 7 for 10 most of the group was wrapped around the center.
P30: 7 for 10 with most of the group hanging bottom right.
VP9: 7 for 10 with most hanging top right with only one in the bull. At this distance, I realized the VP9 shoots a bit high. Maybe this gun, but it was consistent throughout the day.

Shooting 1" square at 5 yds with same thought process as above:

Glock: 4 for 5. My first shot was squeezed off early and 2" high--Yikes!!
P30: 0 for 5. All grouped a bit high right with one flier from the group.
VP9: 3 for 5. All grouped in the top right inside the square with the 2 rounds hitting just about .25" high right.

Just to satisfy my father, I shot the same squares again with only my dominant eye. He keeps teasing me that I'm in my 40's now and maybe it's time to close and eye.

Glock: 4 for 5. I cut the middle of the square in half with one flier high right about .5" off the square.
P30: 2 for 5. All a bit low.
VP9: 1 for 5. All grouped a bit high right just an 1/8th of the square.

So the VP9 was pretty good, but not as good as the Glock and more importantly, I hated the reset on the VP9 and it was more 'flippy' like the PPQ as compared to the Glock. I really started to fall in love with the Glock design.

So I ran a few FASTs with the G19 even though I can barely reach the mag release or slide release. I have to break my grip badly. But look what I dropped for my first set of FASTs:

1) 10.32 total: 8.32 -1H 1.99/.51 4.81/38/32/31
2) 7.20 C 1.94/45 3.78/36/36/31
3) 7.06 C 2.03/54 3.53/32/33/31
I got hungry for breaking 7, so I went for it one more time....drum roll....
4) 7.86 C 1.79/53 4.68/32/28/26 GAHHHHH!!!!

If I can just get the right parts to help me fix the reload and get it anywhere near my P30 reloads, which are in the 2.2X-2.6X range, I'd be closing in on a personal best with this new arrow.

Why a new arrow and why not just keep trying to crush it on the P30?

I feel like I've done all I can to wring out the P30 right now for me, and I'd be willing to hear from the PF intelligentsia either way. Obviously more testing needs to be done, but without some work on the G19, I can't even produce a fair test yet. However unfair the tests have been against the Glock, it seems to be shining.

I'll remain standing during the firing squad :cool:

Please include the best extended mag release and slide release for super small, carney-handed, cabbage-smelling people like me. My glove size is a size 8. if that helps. I'll post pictures of me reaching for slide/mag release later if that helps.

TIA

[BCL]

Vickers mag release from TangoDown works best for me, the factory extended mag release causes me to release mags with my support hand grip (plus it's sharp). I personally don't use the extended slide release, as my high grip causes the gun to lock open during a string of fire with ammo left in the mag. Of the ones I'm aware of, I think the factory extended is more reliable than the Vickers TD. I don't know if the issues have been fixed with the Vickers, but it used to break the slide release spring in a relatively short amount of time.

Get a grip plug if you don't have one, might help the reloads. Also, just flip the gun in your hand to reach the mag release with your thumb. It takes a little getting used to, but it will become natural rather quickly.

I don't think it's just new gun concentration, Glocks are easier to shoot at a high level than any HK I've tried (and I have quite a few - EDIT: I haven't shot a VP9/40, only hammer-fired). Once you get the different angle down for the reloads (probably what's causing your issue, the Glock mag goes in at a more forward angle, relative to the gun, than the P30).

Have fun on the dark side.

[RJ]

1) Good thread. I kinda wished I'da just bought a Glock 19 three years ago and started shooting. Interesting to think where I would be today.

2) I double-dog dare ya to post this on the Pro forum. :cool:

[BaiHu]

Vickers mag release from TangoDown works best for me, the factory extended mag release causes me to release mags with my support hand grip (plus it's sharp). I personally don't use the extended slide release, as my high grip causes the gun to lock open during a string of fire with ammo left in the mag. Of the ones I'm aware of, I think the factory extended is more reliable than the Vickers TD. I don't know if the issues have been fixed with the Vickers, but it used to break the slide release spring in a relatively short amount of time.

Get a grip plug if you don't have one, might help the reloads. Also, just flip the gun in your hand to reach the mag release with your thumb. It takes a little getting used to, but it will become natural rather quickly.

I don't think it's just new gun concentration, Glocks are easier to shoot at a high level than any HK I've tried (and I have quite a few - EDIT: I haven't shot a VP9/40, only hammer-fired). Once you get the different angle down for the reloads (probably what's causing your issue, the Glock mag goes in at a more forward angle, relative to the gun, than the P30).

Have fun on the dark side.
Good info. Thanks. I have a plug, what slows my reload is the time to hit the mag release and then the slide release. No problems getting it in. Phrasing!

1) Good thread. I kinda wished I'da just bought a Glock 19 three years ago and started shooting. Interesting to think where I would be today.

2) I double-dog dare ya to post this on the Pro forum. :cool:
Lol! There's a reason why I only post here.

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[BCL]

Good info. Thanks. I have a plug, what slows my reload is the time to hit the mag release and then the slide release. No problems getting it in. Phrasing!

Are you able to use your strong side thumb to activate the slide release? Or do you have to powerstroke/slingshot/use support thumb?

As far as the mag release goes, just practice ejecting mags for about an hour straight and that should problem should be cured. Either by itself, or Burkett reloads.

[DocGKR]

Get the factory extended mag release, then shape it as needed--generally cheaper and better than other none OEM parts.

[Nephrology]

I like Glocks. You should like Glocks, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdxuWq1-5qk


Get the factory extended mag release, then shape it as needed--generally cheaper and better than other none OEM parts.

This is what I do with Gen 3s Glocks. The OEM extended version is way too long, so I install it and then take it down/reshape it with sandpaper until I get a shape that's just long enough to be easy to reach but I am still able to press the gun against a flat surface without engaging the mag release.

[JBP55]

I like Glocks. You should like Glocks, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdxuWq1-5qk



This is what I do with Gen 3s Glocks. The OEM extended version is way too long, so I install it and then take it down/reshape it with sandpaper until I get a shape that's just long enough to be easy to reach but I am still able to press the gun against a flat surface without engaging the mag release.

I shape them before installing.

[BaiHu]

Are you able to use your strong side thumb to activate the slide release? Or do you have to powerstroke/slingshot/use support thumb?

As far as the mag release goes, just practice ejecting mags for about an hour straight and that should problem should be cured. Either by itself, or Burkett reloads.

I can use my strong side thumb, but it breaks my grip badly and sometimes my index finger fights my thumb - lol! The only dumb design on the damn thing.

I've been doing reloads for the last 3 days and the butt plug helps the "miss" and I'm getting better. But if I thought my reload was slow before...this is glacial.

ETA: sights? I know there's a thread, but what about a simple glock version of night sights? Glock OEM night sights?

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[Nephrology]

I shape them before installing.

Oops, yes. Did not phrase that sentence carefully enough. I shape em before installing them and if they can still activate the mag release when pushed against a flat surface I pull it out and file it down some more. Would not be terribly easy to shape when installed in the gun.

[HCM]

It sounds like you just need a break from the P30. Nothing wrong with that and the Glock is as good a platform for it as any.

Hate to tell you but for small hands, the answer to your questions is a Gen 4 G19.

Sights are pretty personal. The Glock brand night sights are, I believe, made by Meprolight. They are OK but personally, for basic night sights its worth the extra $20 for Trijicons or Ameriglo's which use Trijicon lamps.

[BaiHu]

It sounds like you just need a break from the P30. Nothing wrong with that and the Glock is as good a platform for it as any.

Hate to tell you but for small hands, the answer to your questions is a Gen 4 G19.

Sights are pretty personal. The Glock brand night sights are, I believe, made by Meprolight. They are OK but personally, for basic night sights its worth the extra $20 for Trijicons or Ameriglo's which use Trijicon lamps.
Thanks. It might be just that.

As far as the Gen 4, it's a tougher fit for me out of the box. The mag release and slide lock are shaped differently, so much so that the Gen 3 is easier even though there's no grip modification. I'll double check my range and see if the one they showed me has any straps on it.

Video is self explanatory.

https://vimeo.com/163189581

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[HCM]

Thanks. It might be just that.

As far as the Gen 4, it's a tougher fit for me out of the box. The mag release and slide lock are shaped differently, so much so that the Gen 3 is easier even though there's no grip modification. I'll double check my range and see if the one they showed me has any straps on it.

Video is self explanatory.

https://vimeo.com/163189581

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HK designs their levers to be used as both a slide catch / stop and a Slide release - Glock designs theirs as a catch/stop only. if you want to use your thumb, you need the factory extended (FBI) release or the Vickers.

[JHC]

We've been waiting for you. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-ZWgUtqfo


;)

[HopetonBrown]

if you want to use your thumb, you need the factory extended (FBI) release or the Vickers.

I drop the slide with the regular factory slide stop I have medium sized hands.

[Dagga Boy]

Easy fix.

1. Unload pistol and place in its Glock box.
2. Drive it to HK dealer
3. Trade in on VP9
4. Stop at In N Out on way home to celebrate your genius.

[BaiHu]

Easy fix.

1. Unload pistol and place in its Glock box.
2. Drive it to HK dealer
3. Trade in on VP9
4. Stop at In N Out on way home to celebrate your genius.
Lmfao! Glad you chimed in. I find the VP9 to have a weak reset. Was it my experience of 1? Fill me in.

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[breakingtime91]

Easy fix.

1. Unload pistol and place in its Glock box.
2. Drive it to HK dealer
3. Trade in on VP9
4. Stop at In N Out on way home to celebrate your genius.

If they made a vp9 with a thumb safety I would probably have one.

[A-Train]

Easy fix.

1. Unload pistol and place in its Glock box.
2. Drive it to HK dealer
3. Trade in on VP9
4. Stop at In N Out on way home to celebrate your genius.

Hilarious! Well put sir! :-)

[EM_]

Easy fix.

1. Unload pistol and place in its Glock box.
2. Drive it to HK dealer
3. Trade in on VP9
4. Stop at In N Out on way home to celebrate your genius.

This is soooooo what I want to do, but as I alluded to in a PM to you I'm so damn invested in Glock for so long I'm having a damn hard time making the jump to HK.

The HK has called to me for so long but was never authorized. Now it will be an option. Curses!!!!

[Dagga Boy]

Lmfao! Glad you chimed in. I find the VP9 to have a weak reset. Was it my experience of 1? Fill me in.

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I don't. It is not as short as a Glock, but it is super predictable for me. I honestly think folks put way to much emphasis on this. If it is a HUGE issue....Rick at Lazy Wolf can make it better. The VP9 I shoot the most is in the same configuration as Wayne's....we blacked out the rear sights with sharpies and seem to have no issues at all with the guns in dead stock condition.

[UNK]

If I had hands that small every time I took a piss I'd be grinning ear to ear. :p Did I just say that out loud? You know that thing you have that makes you stop and say naaa I shouldn't say that? Ya... I don't have one of those ;)


Thanks. It might be just that.

As far as the Gen 4, it's a tougher fit for me out of the box. The mag release and slide lock are shaped differently, so much so that the Gen 3 is easier even though there's no grip modification. I'll double check my range and see if the one they showed me has any straps on it.

Video is self explanatory.

https://vimeo.com/163189581

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[M2CattleCo]

I can't reach the mag release without shifting the gun on any handgun I've ever held.

As far as reset? Who cares? Slap the trigger from all the way out and you'll never feel it.

[SLG]

Any normal, duty type weapon from the major players can shoot very fast FAST times. It's not the gun. Nor is it whether you can reach the controls or not from a firing grip. You need some good coaching.

The P30 is a great gun, the gen 3 Glock is ok too. I think the P30 is safer and would be my small handed choice for sure.

The P30 is also better than the VP9, so don't go getting one of those instead. Instead, go get some good coaching.

[HCM]

I drop the slide with the regular factory slide stop I have medium sized hands.

Per the factory armorer class they designed and intend it only as a catch / stop with the intention you would be sling shotting the slide.

I drop the slide with the standard release too but Glock did not design it for that, it's just something us crazy Americans do.

[HopetonBrown]

Not trying to sound rude or dismissive, but why does that matter?


Per the factory armorer class they designed and intend it only as a catch / stop with the intention you would be sling shotting the slide.

[HCM]

Not trying to sound rude or dismissive, but why does that matter?

Because it could and would be designed better if it is your intention is to use it as a slide release - such as when the FBI said they wanted an a part designed to be used with the thumb as a slide release, and Glock supplied one.

It's also why Glock slide stops tend to wear prematurely when used as a release.

[BaiHu]

Any normal, duty type weapon from the major players can shoot very fast FAST times. It's not the gun. Nor is it whether you can reach the controls or not from a firing grip. You need some good coaching.

The P30 is a great gun, the gen 3 Glock is ok too. I think the P30 is safer and would be my small handed choice for sure.

The P30 is also better than the VP9, so don't go getting one of those instead. Instead, go get some good coaching.
I respect your opinion and have not neglected coaching, rather I'm at a time in my life with some "hinks".

1. Just started a new business, so money and travel is on short supply.
2. My father is fronting the ammo bill lately, as I have the pleasure of shooting with him weekly. ~150 rounds each outing.
3. The training I received in the past: multiple NRA classes, other local classes, private lessons (NRA guy), Todd @ AFHF all happened when money and time were not a problem and I was not as "seasoned" a shooter.

Now that I at least have regular training time again, I don't have the money for lessons. I'm pretty decent self diagnosing, but no one is as good as a good teacher watching you.

That being said, if this arrow breaks this Indian out of his current plateau, then I'm all for it. If it leaves me as a Glock user, so be it. If it has me yelping back to the P30, then so be it.

I've ignored that G19 for over 3 years, it's not like I'm incapable of doing it again.

In the end, what has me changing is the grip angle, sights and trigger balance. Something I originally abhorred about the Glock. Curiosity has got this cat.

Thanks for the thoughts and advice. Please keep it coming.

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[OnionsAndDragons]

Is there value to a Gen4 in swapping the mag catch to the strong side?

I only have Gen3s, but not little hands.
I mainly shoot p2000 and p30 both in TLG LEM. My alternate, need something different to shoot, is usually a G19. I shoot a few things legit better with the G19, including where my limits start to fray past 25yds. FAST just a touch better w the Glock. Anything where identification or other thinking is needed in the drill, I'm not really any better w the Glock.

I am having trouble warming to the VP9, myself. For my last 4-5 sessions I've run the VP9 and the P2000. I consistently perform better w the P2000. And the VP just doesn't feel right on to me.


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[Nephrology]

Is there value to a Gen4 in swapping the mag catch to the strong side?

I only have Gen3s, but not little hands.
I mainly shoot p2000 and p30 both in TLG LEM. My alternate, need something different to shoot, is usually a G19. I shoot a few things legit better with the G19, including where my limits start to fray past 25yds. FAST just a touch better w the Glock. Anything where identification or other thinking is needed in the drill, I'm not really any better w the Glock.

I am having trouble warming to the VP9, myself. For my last 4-5 sessions I've run the VP9 and the P2000. I consistently perform better w the P2000. And the VP just doesn't feel right on to me.


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I prefer the "FBI" style Gen 4 Mag release over the stock version. Got mine from midway USA for $4.

[BillSWPA]

I have the Glock "extended" slide stop on both of my Glocks. It is a huge improvement over the standard slide stop. It will fit all of my tightly molded leather and Kydex holsters without modification.

[GJM]

I have the Glock "extended" slide stop on both of my Glocks. It is a huge improvement over the standard slide stop. It will fit all of my tightly molded leather and Kydex holsters without modification.

Deciding whether it is a huge improvement over the standard part seems like a balancing of the benefit of an easier slide lock reload against the greater risk of the slide not locking back when empty. My wife, who is a lefty, runs extended, and reaches under to drop the slide. I run the standard part, as I don't want the greater chance of the slide forward on an empty magazine. If I was trying to make one second slide lock reloads, though, I would go with the extended part.

[1slow]

When I was running Glocks I ran the Vickers slide release for several years.
This was mainly for left hand trigger finger slide release and manually locking back the slide while injured. I had no trouble with the part. It may be an issue with some holsters.

[JonInWA]

I run the Glock extended slide stop/release on all my Glocks-I've never had any unintentional activation/deactivations with it, and I see it as an essential tool in my Glock toolbox-I don't HAVE to use it as the slide release, but if I WANT to, it's there. I've run them for years, and never had any "premature wear" of either the component or the spring.

While Glock's original stance was that it was solely a "slide stop," and the "approved" technique for getting the slide into battery from slidelock was either the overhand or slingshot technique, their stance notably softened when the Tactical/Practical models (G34/G35) came out, and even more so with the GAP models, which needed the extended stop/release due to their broadened slides. I situationally may use any/all techniques, but generally personally prefer using the slide release-it's easier and faster in most circumstances. There have been some notable users, such as the FBI, which mandate the extended slide stop/release as OEM from Glock.

I also use the Glock FBI Gen4 magazine release on my sole Gen4, my G22. I like it-it's slightly longer than the OEM release, but not so much that it'll inadvertently release the magazine if the gun is placed release-side down on a hard surface (like a nightstand) and then pressed down. All my Gen 3 Glocks still have their OEM magazine releases-I'm not in the lease opposed to a sightly longer release, but I've simply never had any significant issues in activating the OEM release. My Gen 3 G34 does have the OEM extended release, but that particular gun is never used as a "nightstand" gun because of it.

I've very recently become a convert to using a backstrap grip cavity plug-I use the Pierce model. It does a good job in sealing the cavity and action from dirt/dust/sand, and also serves a secondary function as a sort of a reloading skid for magazines. They are now allowed by both IDPA and GSSF.

Best, Jon

[JonInWA]

In the G19 vs VP comparison, I'm frankly still ambivalent-I currently own 2 Gen 3 G19s and a HK VP40, son in a cartridge sense its not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison in my case. Still, for what it's worth, here are my thoughts:

-The HK is more tailor-able, given its 3 backstraps and 6 side panels-but my Gen 3 G19s fit me and index with me very well indeed. So for me, it's a bit of a wash. On my Gen4 G22, I origianly thought therre would be some benefits to be derived from the medium full beavertail backstrap, but empirically I discovered that I shoot better WITHOUT and additional backstraps...again, that's with me, and on a sampe size of precisely 1 gun.

-I have the LE version of the VP40, which comes with a set of very good Meprolight tritium sights-they provide a very good day sight picture, with decent light bars when front and rear sights are aligned, and a good night sight picture. One of my G19s came with similarly excellent Trijcon night sights, and the other I have a set of Glock steel sights. While the Glock polymer sights are roundly disparaged, in my opinion the disparagement is justified only regarding their soft polymer composition-sight picture-wise, they're actually acceptably decent, especially for close-to-medium ranges; at longer ranges, the broadness of the front sight becomes a bit of a disadvantage it obtaining a precise sight picture.

-While I theoretically like the idea of a short, discernible reset, empirical reality for me is that unless I'm shooting statically (as in a GSSF competition), I more often than not will simply let the trigger go fully forward on either my Glocks or HK, and then pull fully back for subsequent shots. I tend to "tune" my Glocks with Glock connectors, coil trigger springs, NY1 springs, and Glock triggerbars of varying generations. All are tuned to be acceptable for both carry, home defense, and competitions (i.e.,all have at least a 5 lb triggerpull). While I've never physically measured any of my Glock/HK triggerpull weights, I believe the OEM HK VP40's triggerpull is the lightest, seemingly around 4.5 to 5 lbs. It has a discernible, but fairly "soft" reset-comparable to a Glock with a coil trigger spring's reset. While all are eminently usable, I feel a tad bit more comfortable with the slightly harder reset characteristics of my Glocks. All of my Glocks have the smooth-faced trigger-my OEM G19 grooved trigger triggerbars have been replaced with the smooth trigger faced G17 triggebars for greater comfort.

-Accuracy on all my Glocks and HK is more than acceptable-they simply wouldn't be around if it wasn't. That said, the HK VP40 is probably slightly more accurate than most of my Glocks, save my Gen 3 G21, at which it's at an intrinsic parity with (but the HK VP40 is easier to shoot quickly and accurately than the G21-at least for me);

-I like the HK paddle magazine release-but I've never had problems with the Glock push-button release, so operationally the 2 systems are a wash.

-The HK VP's slide stop/release is slightly more protrusive than the OEM Glock flat slide stop/release, but not as protrusive as the Glock extended stop/release. While I haven't had any issues in ease of activation of the HK lever, I still wish they had made it with a slightly more protrusive shelf. YMMV.

-Both Glock and HK are exceptionally easy to field-strip, clean and lubricate-and both platforms use minimal amounts of lubrication. The Glocks are in another universe entirely when it comes to ease of detailed disassemby and reassembly, however. Detail-disassembling the HK VP requires a distinctly mechanical bent, a VERY specific and detailed guide, and/or armorer training-beyond field-stripping and perhaps disassembling the slide sufficient to remove, clean and lubricate the striker is not for the untutored or faint of heart. I suspect that its relative intricacy will be a major dis-incentive for organizational sales, if armor times required for detailed component inspection is factored in as a cost resource...Of course, HK's stance is probably along the lines of "our component are sufficient engineered, manufactured, and comprised of high-quality materials to preclude deterioration and breakage in the weapon's forecasted lifespan." While I personally tend to generally prefer the Glock's simplicity, I also admire HKs-to the point that it was undeniably a favorable factor in my VP40 purchase decision. So I really have no clear-cut answer for you, in this arena-you just have to fall on which side of the platform fence that best fits your needs and skill-set is my best advice.

-The Glock is easier to re-holster (or, perhaps more accurately, easier to re-holster in a greater variety of holsters). The HK VPs (unlike other contemporary HK platforms) have an aggressively protrusive portion of the front Picatinney rail, which can induce reholstering stumbling with some holsters. While not a game-changer per se, it is something to potentially consider. For example, it's significantly easier and smoother for me to re-holster the VP with my Olen OWB holster than my Blade-Tech Nano IWB (it seems not to be and OWB vs IWB thing, but more due to the slight flare of the Olen's holster mouth sides, which nicely channels the gun without catching during re-holstering).

-The Glock G19 is dimensionally smaller than the VP; my thought is that the VP was designed more as a "duty" sidearm than for concealed carry. Nevertheless, with a good holster/belt combination and judicious clothing choices, I find the VP40 to be easily and acceptably carry-able concealed-and both platforms are very comfortable to carry and expeditiously draw. Interestingly, by a hundredth of and inch or so, the VPs are within the barrel length and dimensional requirements for the IDPA Concealed Carry Pistol division...

Just a couple of my empirically-derived comparison thoughts on the two platforms to date. The good news is, both platforms are excellent-there really isn't a "bad" decision to be made in choosing between the two.

Best, Jon

[JDB]

Any normal, duty type weapon from the major players can shoot very fast FAST times. It's not the gun. Nor is it whether you can reach the controls or not from a firing grip. You need some good coaching.

The P30 is a great gun, the gen 3 Glock is ok too. I think the P30 is safer and would be my small handed choice for sure.

The P30 is also better than the VP9, so don't go getting one of those instead. Instead, go get some good coaching.

Can you elaborate on this? mechanical reliability? durability?

I've been using a P30 the last few years, really happy with it for appendix carry and see no reason to change (unless to a shorter grip like P2000). Just curious on your thoughts towards the VP9.

Thanks

[Nephrology]

Deciding whether it is a huge improvement over the standard part seems like a balancing of the benefit of an easier slide lock reload against the greater risk of the slide not locking back when empty. My wife, who is a lefty, runs extended, and reaches under to drop the slide. I run the standard part, as I don't want the greater chance of the slide forward on an empty magazine. If I was trying to make one second slide lock reloads, though, I would go with the extended part.

I hate the OEM extended slide stop, and have no issues actuating the stock version with my strong side thumb.

[Irelander]

I have smallish hands and I prefer the Vickers extended mag release. Put it on all my Glocks which unfortunately is only one lonely Gen3 G19.

I am trying not to move over to a P2000 LEM but I really want to.

[psalms144.1]

My thoughts on the matter, for what they're worth:

1. The G19 is smaller and lighter than the P30 or VP9, with the same capacity. That's sort of a no brainer "win" for the Glock
2. The Glock has cheaper, more readily available magazines - another "win" for the Glock. Likewise, parts, holsters, NS, etc for the Glock are infinitely more available. Lastly, the Glock can be detail maintained by a well-trained chimpanzee. The HK's, not so much.
3. There's no honest way to compare the Glock/P30 triggers from a PERFORMANCE perspective - of course a shorter, lighter trigger with a shorter, crisper reset is going to allow a shooter to "run" the pistol faster. By the same token, the LEM trigger offers a ton more "safety" from inadvertent wooby-checks, and makes reholstering AIWB safer (barring the eventual advent of the Gadget, of course).
4. When I rage quit Glocks in 2012 after five bad G19s in a row, I devoted myself to HKs - first the P30, then the P2000 - both with TLG LEM. I was CONSISTENTLY more accurate with the HKs in any traditional "accuracy" drills (the humbler, 3x5 walk backs, whatever). When I decided to give GLOCK another try, I was IMMEDIATELY and measurably better on any timed drill. In my hands, the HKs are just a lot "flippier" than the GLOCK.
5. If someone I loved wanted a 9mm pistol that would be 100% reliable out of the box, I'd point them towards an HK over the Glock, based on recent history with BTF, RSAs, etc.

That's why there's still a G19 on my hip, despite the fact that I HATE GLOCK. Full disclosure, I haven't fired a VP9.

[GJM]

In the G19 vs VP comparison, I'm frankly still ambivalent-I currently own 2 Gen 3 G19s and a HK VP40, son in a cartridge sense its not exactly an apples-to-apples comparison in my case. Still, for what it's worth, here are my thoughts:

-The HK is more tailor-able, given its 3 backstraps and 6 side panels-but my Gen 3 G19s fit me and index with me very well indeed. So for me, it's a bit of a wash. On my Gen4 G22, I origianly thought therre would be some benefits to be derived from the medium full beavertail backstrap, but empirically I discovered that I shoot better WITHOUT and additional backstraps...again, that's with me, and on a sampe size of precisely 1 gun.

-I have the LE version of the VP40, which comes with a set of very good Meprolight tritium sights-they provide a very good day sight picture, with decent light bars when front and rear sights are aligned, and a good night sight picture. One of my G19s came with similarly excellent Trijcon night sights, and the other I have a set of Glock steel sights. While the Glock polymer sights are roundly disparaged, in my opinion the disparagement is justified only regarding their soft polymer composition-sight picture-wise, they're actually acceptably decent, especially for close-to-medium ranges; at longer ranges, the broadness of the front sight becomes a bit of a disadvantage it obtaining a precise sight picture.

-While I theoretically like the idea of a short, discernible reset, empirical reality for me is that unless I'm shooting statically (as in a GSSF competition), I more often than not will simply let the trigger go fully forward on either my Glocks or HK, and then pull fully back for subsequent shots. I tend to "tune" my Glocks with Glock connectors, coil trigger springs, NY1 springs, and Glock triggerbars of varying generations. All are tuned to be acceptable for both carry, home defense, and competitions (i.e.,all have at least a 5 lb triggerpull). While I've never physically measured any of my Glock/HK triggerpull weights, I believe the OEM HK VP40's triggerpull is the lightest, seemingly around 4.5 to 5 lbs. It has a discernible, but fairly "soft" reset-comparable to a Glock with a coil trigger spring's reset. While all are eminently usable, I feel a tad bit more comfortable with the slightly harder reset characteristics of my Glocks. All of my Glocks have the smooth-faced trigger-my OEM G19 grooved trigger triggerbars have been replaced with the smooth trigger faced G17 triggebars for greater comfort.

-Accuracy on all my Glocks and HK is more than acceptable-they simply wouldn't be around if it wasn't. That said, the HK VP40 is probably slightly more accurate than most of my Glocks, save my Gen 3 G21, at which it's at an intrinsic parity with (but the HK VP40 is easier to shoot quickly and accurately than the G21-at least for me);

-I like the HK paddle magazine release-but I've never had problems with the Glock push-button release, so operationally the 2 systems are a wash.

-The HK VP's slide stop/release is slightly more protrusive than the OEM Glock flat slide stop/release, but not as protrusive as the Glock extended stop/release. While I haven't had any issues in ease of activation of the HK lever, I still wish they had made it with a slightly more protrusive shelf. YMMV.

-Both Glock and HK are exceptionally easy to field-strip, clean and lubricate-and both platforms use minimal amounts of lubrication. The Glocks are in another universe entirely when it comes to ease of detailed disassemby and reassembly, however. Detail-disassembling the HK VP requires a distinctly mechanical bent, a VERY specific and detailed guide, and/or armorer training-beyond field-stripping and perhaps disassembling the slide sufficient to remove, clean and lubricate the striker is not for the untutored or faint of heart. I suspect that its relative intricacy will be a major dis-incentive for organizational sales, if armor times required for detailed component inspection is factored in as a cost resource...Of course, HK's stance is probably along the lines of "our component are sufficient engineered, manufactured, and comprised of high-quality materials to preclude deterioration and breakage in the weapon's forecasted lifespan." While I personally tend to generally prefer the Glock's simplicity, I also admire HKs-to the point that it was undeniably a favorable factor in my VP40 purchase decision. So I really have no clear-cut answer for you, in this arena-you just have to fall on which side of the platform fence that best fits your needs and skill-set is my best advice.

-The Glock is easier to re-holster (or, perhaps more accurately, easier to re-holster in a greater variety of holsters). The HK VPs (unlike other contemporary HK platforms) have an aggressively protrusive portion of the front Picatinney rail, which can induce reholstering stumbling with some holsters. While not a game-changer per se, it is something to potentially consider. For example, it's significantly easier and smoother for me to re-holster the VP with my Olen OWB holster than my Blade-Tech Nano IWB (it seems not to be and OWB vs IWB thing, but more due to the slight flare of the Olen's holster mouth sides, which nicely channels the gun without catching during re-holstering).

-The Glock G19 is dimensionally smaller than the VP; my thought is that the VP was designed more as a "duty" sidearm than for concealed carry. Nevertheless, with a good holster/belt combination and judicious clothing choices, I find the VP40 to be easily and acceptably carry-able concealed-and both platforms are very comfortable to carry and expeditiously draw. Interestingly, by a hundredth of and inch or so, the VPs are within the barrel length and dimensional requirements for the IDPA Concealed Carry Pistol division...

Just a couple of my empirically-derived comparison thoughts on the two platforms to date. The good news is, both platforms are excellent-there really isn't a "bad" decision to be made in choosing between the two.

Best, Jon

Lotta empirical thinking in this post.

[JonInWA]

Hopefully GJM, you mean "Lotta GOOD empirical thinking"...but thanks regardless. Hope it stimulates some good thought/discussion amongst the cognoscenti here...

Best, Jon

[SLG]

Can you elaborate on this? mechanical reliability? durability?

I've been using a P30 the last few years, really happy with it for appendix carry and see no reason to change (unless to a shorter grip like P2000). Just curious on your thoughts towards the VP9.

Thanks

I am an unabashed fan of hammer fired guns. Even if the P30 is not a true hammer fired gun, it is a great gun. Extremely accurate, reliable, ergonomic, whats not to like. I think it is the best gun HK has ever done. At HK, it is an under appreciated gun. Same everywhere else, as everyone has to have a striker fired gun. Hammer fired guns are safer. Hammer fired guns are cooler too.:-)

[BCL]

I am an unabashed fan of hammer fired guns. Even if the P30 is not a true hammer fired gun, it is a great gun.

What do you mean about the P30 not being a true hammer-fired gun? Are you referencing the LEM version?

Just curious.

[GJM]

What do you mean about the P30 not being a true hammer-fired gun? Are you referencing the LEM version?

Just curious.

I was wonderingly the same thing, as my P30 looks a lot like a smaller version of my USP 45.

[SLG]

What do you mean about the P30 not being a true hammer-fired gun? Are you referencing the LEM version?

Just curious.

The p30 has an "Exposed two-part hammer with spur. Hammer actually consists of an internal cocking piece which is connected to the main spring, and the hammer itself. After each shot, the cocking piece stays cocked, and the hammer remains lowered, providing maximum safety and a low CDA-type trigger pull. The cocking piece can be decocked by pressing of the decocker button, located at the rear of the slide, next to the hammer."

I suppose it depends how you look at it, but HK always told me it was not a true hammer fired gun. TLG believed that to be true as well, and I think discussed it during the test.

[GJM]

The p30 has an "Exposed two-part hammer with spur. Hammer actually consists of an internal cocking piece which is connected to the main spring, and the hammer itself. After each shot, the cocking piece stays cocked, and the hammer remains lowered, providing maximum safety and a low CDA-type trigger pull. The cocking piece can be decocked by pressing of the decocker button, located at the rear of the slide, next to the hammer."

I suppose it depends how you look at it, but HK always told me it was not a true hammer fired gun. TLG believed that to be true as well, and I think discussed it during the test.

You mean LEM, as opposed to the DA/SA models?

[BCL]

The p30 has an "Exposed two-part hammer with spur. Hammer actually consists of an internal cocking piece which is connected to the main spring, and the hammer itself. After each shot, the cocking piece stays cocked, and the hammer remains lowered, providing maximum safety and a low CDA-type trigger pull. The cocking piece can be decocked by pressing of the decocker button, located at the rear of the slide, next to the hammer."

I suppose it depends how you look at it, but HK always told me it was not a true hammer fired gun. TLG believed that to be true as well, and I think discussed it during the test.

I wonder if HK was referring to one of the LEM models, as the V3 (DA/SA) has a one-piece hammer that doesn't remain lowered and operates like a traditional hammer fired DA/SA. Thanks for the info though, that is interesting.

[SLG]

You mean LEM, as opposed to the DA/SA models?

No, standard da sa

[11B10]

Given that LL's thread has been 'fixing the Gen 4' (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19739-LL-s-quot-Almost-Guaranteed-to-Work-fixes-for-Gen4-Glock-9mm-issues-quot), I might need one from the respected PF crew on the Gen 3.

That being said, let me spin my yarn.

I've shot a P30 for almost 6 years now. Started with a V3 and then moved to a V2. Quick breakdown as to why:

1) P30 b/c I can reach all of the controls with both hands.
2) V3, b/c I learned that way so stayed that way. Best FAST around 6.7X at AFHF in 2012
3) V2, b/c I figured I'd try a new trigger to see if it helped push my limits. Best FAST not too long ago 5.62 (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?32-Fundamentals-Accuracy-amp-Speed-Test-(F-A-S-T-)/page35&highlight=Fundamentals%2C+accuracy%2C).

What got me to go all half-Glocked? I've owned a Gen 3 G19 and I've never really shot it strictly b/c I practice 95% of the time from holster (AIWB) and just don't have one for the G19 and I had some problems with the Glock when I first shot it. They were:

1) Grip angle didn't 'suit me'.
2) The purist in me felt like the SFA gun was a 'cheater' gun.
3) Not being a LEO or MIL, I felt I needed to work on the Indian and not the arrow first and foremost.
4) Can't reach the slide release and mag release with either hand easily.

With all those negatives, why now?

1) I ordered a Gadget. As much for supporting Todd/Tom/PT&F as to finally try a Glock from Appendix.
2) Once I ordered the Gadget, a realization occurred: if I'm okay with a Glock at AIWB, w/ or w/o the Gadget, I must be feeling comfortable.
3) I grabbed an older JMCK AIWB and started dry drawing and reloading. I felt smitten immediately.

So, how'd I shoot it? Not badly. Not badly at all. Of course there's the 'new gun' concentration, but it was more the two things I hated about the Glock (grip angle and trigger) that I instantly loved after spending the last 6 years in trigger travel.

I compared my Glock and P30 alongside a friend's VP9. I didn't run any of them timed, I just went for sight tracking and accuracy.

Shooting 2" circles at 5 yds with one initial sight picture and then tracking the remaining 5:

Glock: 7 for 10 most of the group was wrapped around the center.
P30: 7 for 10 with most of the group hanging bottom right.
VP9: 7 for 10 with most hanging top right with only one in the bull. At this distance, I realized the VP9 shoots a bit high. Maybe this gun, but it was consistent throughout the day.

Shooting 1" square at 5 yds with same thought process as above:

Glock: 4 for 5. My first shot was squeezed off early and 2" high--Yikes!!
P30: 0 for 5. All grouped a bit high right with one flier from the group.
VP9: 3 for 5. All grouped in the top right inside the square with the 2 rounds hitting just about .25" high right.

Just to satisfy my father, I shot the same squares again with only my dominant eye. He keeps teasing me that I'm in my 40's now and maybe it's time to close and eye.

Glock: 4 for 5. I cut the middle of the square in half with one flier high right about .5" off the square.
P30: 2 for 5. All a bit low.
VP9: 1 for 5. All grouped a bit high right just an 1/8th of the square.

So the VP9 was pretty good, but not as good as the Glock and more importantly, I hated the reset on the VP9 and it was more 'flippy' like the PPQ as compared to the Glock. I really started to fall in love with the Glock design.

So I ran a few FASTs with the G19 even though I can barely reach the mag release or slide release. I have to break my grip badly. But look what I dropped for my first set of FASTs:

1) 10.32 total: 8.32 -1H 1.99/.51 4.81/38/32/31
2) 7.20 C 1.94/45 3.78/36/36/31
3) 7.06 C 2.03/54 3.53/32/33/31
I got hungry for breaking 7, so I went for it one more time....drum roll....
4) 7.86 C 1.79/53 4.68/32/28/26 GAHHHHH!!!!

If I can just get the right parts to help me fix the reload and get it anywhere near my P30 reloads, which are in the 2.2X-2.6X range, I'd be closing in on a personal best with this new arrow.

Why a new arrow and why not just keep trying to crush it on the P30?

I feel like I've done all I can to wring out the P30 right now for me, and I'd be willing to hear from the PF intelligentsia either way. Obviously more testing needs to be done, but without some work on the G19, I can't even produce a fair test yet. However unfair the tests have been against the Glock, it seems to be shining.

I'll remain standing during the firing squad :cool:

Please include the best extended mag release and slide release for super small, carney-handed, cabbage-smelling people like me. My glove size is a size 8. if that helps. I'll post pictures of me reaching for slide/mag release later if that helps.

TIA


I had posted this earlier, but am too fumblenutsed (or lazy) to find it now. I had the same "reach" issues with the mag release on my G30S - tried all the suggestions here - finally sold the gun. Then, a friend told me to pick up a Gen 4 G19 - tada!!! Like it was made for me!

[GJM]

No, standard da sa

Now I am confused. Here is a link to the P30 user's manual:


http://hkusa.s3.amazonaws.com/20140509153029/P-Series-Operators-Manual-05302013.pdf





Sent from my iPad

[GJM]

No, standard da sa

Now I am confused. Here is a link to the P30 user's manual:


http://hkusa.s3.amazonaws.com/20140509153029/P-Series-Operators-Manual-05302013.pdf





Sent from my iPad

[SLG]

I wonder if HK was referring to one of the LEM models, as the V3 (DA/SA) has a one-piece hammer that doesn't remain lowered and operates like a traditional hammer fired DA/SA. Thanks for the info though, that is interesting.

That quote came from wikipedia, for convenience. It may be wrong, but that is how it was explained to me by HK. Maybe one of us did confuse the dasa with the lem.

[JAD]

I also wear size 8 gloves. I have tried the G19, G19C, G22, G27, and gen 4 G17 and G19. I have also tried the P30. I have sold all the Glocks. I still have the P30.

I can shoot any of them relatively well if I grip the shit out of them. The Gen 4s, particularly the G17, were a big improvement for me in trigger address.

To shoot them well without the grip crutch -- for example SHO -- I will need more coaching. I happen to live near a pretty good P30 coach and will get around to it.

In the meantime, I shoot 1911s, which I can shoot well SHO and WHO, and which run OK for me. I would like the increased capacity of the double stacks, and will get around to it.

[Dagga Boy]

My thoughts on the matter, for what they're worth:

1. The G19 is smaller and lighter than the P30 or VP9, with the same capacity. That's sort of a no brainer "win" for the Glock
2. The Glock has cheaper, more readily available magazines - another "win" for the Glock. Likewise, parts, holsters, NS, etc for the Glock are infinitely more available. Lastly, the Glock can be detail maintained by a well-trained chimpanzee. The HK's, not so much.
3. There's no honest way to compare the Glock/P30 triggers from a PERFORMANCE perspective - of course a shorter, lighter trigger with a shorter, crisper reset is going to allow a shooter to "run" the pistol faster. By the same token, the LEM trigger offers a ton more "safety" from inadvertent wooby-checks, and makes reholstering AIWB safer (barring the eventual advent of the Gadget, of course).
4. When I rage quit Glocks in 2012 after five bad G19s in a row, I devoted myself to HKs - first the P30, then the P2000 - both with TLG LEM. I was CONSISTENTLY more accurate with the HKs in any traditional "accuracy" drills (the humbler, 3x5 walk backs, whatever). When I decided to give GLOCK another try, I was IMMEDIATELY and measurably better on any timed drill. In my hands, the HKs are just a lot "flippier" than the GLOCK.
5. If someone I loved wanted a 9mm pistol that would be 100% reliable out of the box, I'd point them towards an HK over the Glock, based on recent history with BTF, RSAs, etc.

That's why there's still a G19 on my hip, despite the fact that I HATE GLOCK. Full disclosure, I haven't fired a VP9.

Just a point on points 1 & 2. The HK's are not much bigger and similar or smaller in various areas. As far as bang for the buck in capacity, and price of magazines....give and take. I have a ton (and I mean stupid numbers) of P30/VP9 magazines. I have never had to deadline a single magazine. I have no "bad" magazines. I have found them to be the single most reliable semi auto magazine I have ever used (which covers a lot of magazines over the years, including thousands of agency issued magazines). That is worth something to me when it comes to pistol reliability as a whole. Then you have capacity. I have no doubt HK can get more rounds in the magazines. I believe that not trying to get a couple more rounds in is part of the key to their reliability. Many very prominent instructors (and non-prominent like yours truely) recommend down loading Glock mags by 1 round. Now we are really getting close to a total non-issue. Then you have M&P mags. We have seen numerous M&P mags totally jacked up when dropped partially loaded. Don't get me started on 1911 mags with their individual personalities.


The p30 has an "Exposed two-part hammer with spur. Hammer actually consists of an internal cocking piece which is connected to the main spring, and the hammer itself. After each shot, the cocking piece stays cocked, and the hammer remains lowered, providing maximum safety and a low CDA-type trigger pull. The cocking piece can be decocked by pressing of the decocker button, located at the rear of the slide, next to the hammer."

I suppose it depends how you look at it, but HK always told me it was not a true hammer fired gun. TLG believed that to be true as well, and I think discussed it during the test.

Trust me, that hammer hitting the firing pin is what is firing the gun. Not Wikipedia, but I passed the USP Armorers school...;)

[GJM]

At a match a month or so ago, a fellow shooter was having ongoing problems with his M&P9 FS and stoppages. At one point, I picked up his magazines after he shot the stage, walked over with a handful of his mags, and said "do you reuse M&P magazines, or should I just toss them in the trash can?"

[SLG]

Trust me, that hammer hitting the firing pin is what is firing the gun. Not Wikipedia, but I passed the USP Armorers school...;)

Like I said, HK explained it to me differently. As did TLG.

There are men who look like you, but are extremely tiny, who live in my guns and make them run. I think I've seen some of them with battle axes, but I'm not sure. I'm the last person who is going to argue about how a gun works. Just relating what I was told at SHOT, by HK. Gun companies have been wrong before, as have I.

[Jackdog]

There are men who look like you, but are extremely tiny, who live in my guns and make them run. I think I've seen some of them with battle axes, but I'm not sure. I'm the last person who is going to argue about how a gun works. Just relating what I was told at SHOT, by HK. Gun companies have been wrong before, as have I.

I believe those little men are wearing ONLY a highly polished chrome spartan and armed with a spear.

[GJM]

Like I said, HK explained it to me differently. As did TLG.

There are men who look like you, but are extremely tiny, who live in my guns and make them run. I think I've seen some of them with battle axes, but I'm not sure. I'm the last person who is going to argue about how a gun works. Just relating what I was told at SHOT, by HK. Gun companies have been wrong before, as have I.

SLG, would this HK person, by chance, be the same knowledgeable man responsible for photographing their magazines?

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpssamekg7s.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpssamekg7s.jpeg.html)

[Dagga Boy]

I believe those little men are wearing ONLY a highly polished chrome spartan and armed with a spear.

With real HK's, they are Viking Helmets. The Greek contract guns have the little Spartan helmets. I went to armorers school......I have seen them. You do not want to know what is inside the 3 round burst mechanism on an MP5.

[psalms144.1]

Just a point on points 1 & 2. The HK's are not much bigger and similar or smaller in various areas. As far as bang for the buck in capacity, and price of magazines....give and take. I have a ton (and I mean stupid numbers) of P30/VP9 magazines. I have never had to deadline a single magazine. I have no "bad" magazines. I have found them to be the single most reliable semi auto magazine I have ever used (which covers a lot of magazines over the years, including thousands of agency issued magazines). That is worth something to me when it comes to pistol reliability as a whole. Then you have capacity. I have no doubt HK can get more rounds in the magazines. I believe that not trying to get a couple more rounds in is part of the key to their reliability. Many very prominent instructors (and non-prominent like yours truely) recommend down loading Glock mags by 1 round. Now we are really getting close to a total non-issue. Nyeti - I respect you and your opinion, I really do. You're the reason why, when I rage quit Glocks in 2012, I ended up with HKs. You are THE expert on HKs, IMHO.

Having said that, FOR ME, the G19 is as big a pistol as I can carry without having to change how I carry and what I wear. The P2000 fits in that niche, but, regardless of how well designed the magazine is, it holds less rounds than the G19 mags. Wish it weren't so, but it is. WRT magazine reliability, I think the HK mags (like all things HK) are things of beauty. BUT, I've never had a G19 magazine "failure" in the 20ish years I've been shooting that platform. Part of that is probably due to the fact that GLOCK mags are SO cheap, especially for LE, that I just buy 3-5 new ones every 12-18 months, and toss the "old" ones into my range box as "range only" magazines. New mags, once they've reliably fed 15-17 rounds (depending on if they have the +2s or not) get loaded with duty ammo, and only get used for duty/sd/hd. Range mags get treated like red headed step children, and STILL haven't malfunctioned, or broken. And, in 20+ years or shooting Glocks, I've never downloaded a magazine, never had a failure related to reloading a full mag while slide forward, etc. One man's opinion, and all that.

And, again, I HATE GLOCKs. I REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted the P2000 to take the place of the G19, but it didn't/couldn't. The P30 was way far back behind that.

AND, I'll be the VERY first guy (after you!) to own a VP9k - if it's GENERALLY G19 sized, even if it held 13 rounds in the magazine.

PS - I will now never get the picture of a tiny you with a helmet and warhammer running around the guts of my HKs out of my head.

[SLG]

I believe those little men are wearing ONLY a highly polished chrome spartan and armed with a spear.

Mine are more appropriately dressed for battle, and as Nyeti mentioned, they are more Norwegian than Greek. As long as I feed them well, they are happy and make things run smoothly.


GJM,

Like I said, gun companies make mistakes too. Either that, or not only will some HK's work without the extractor, they will feed bullets from any direction as well. One of these days I'll ask for clarification on the hammer.

[LSP972]

As far as bang for the buck in capacity... I have found them (HK metal magazines) to be the single most reliable semi auto magazine I have ever used (which covers a lot of magazines over the years, including thousands of agency issued magazines).

Ditto. They are truly bulletproof, and easy to load, AND easy to disassemble. Usually you get one or two (easy disassembly, easy loading, solid reliability) but rarely get all three. HK gives you all three.

.

[Dagga Boy]

Nyeti - I respect you and your opinion, I really do. You're the reason why, when I rage quit Glocks in 2012, I ended up with HKs. You are THE expert on HKs, IMHO.

Having said that, FOR ME, the G19 is as big a pistol as I can carry without having to change how I carry and what I wear. The P2000 fits in that niche, but, regardless of how well designed the magazine is, it holds less rounds than the G19 mags. Wish it weren't so, but it is. WRT magazine reliability, I think the HK mags (like all things HK) are things of beauty. BUT, I've never had a G19 magazine "failure" in the 20ish years I've been shooting that platform. Part of that is probably due to the fact that GLOCK mags are SO cheap, especially for LE, that I just buy 3-5 new ones every 12-18 months, and toss the "old" ones into my range box as "range only" magazines. New mags, once they've reliably fed 15-17 rounds (depending on if they have the +2s or not) get loaded with duty ammo, and only get used for duty/sd/hd. Range mags get treated like red headed step children, and STILL haven't malfunctioned, or broken. And, in 20+ years or shooting Glocks, I've never downloaded a magazine, never had a failure related to reloading a full mag while slide forward, etc. One man's opinion, and all that.

And, again, I HATE GLOCKs. I REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted the P2000 to take the place of the G19, but it didn't/couldn't. The P30 was way far back behind that.

AND, I'll be the VERY first guy (after you!) to own a VP9k - if it's GENERALLY G19 sized, even if it held 13 rounds in the magazine.

PS - I will now never get the picture of a tiny you with a helmet and warhammer running around the guts of my HKs out of my head.
I get the Glock thing...I did not think ANYTHING could get me out of the Glock 9mm platform (or the HK .45Acp guns). Glock got me out. The VP9 has kept me out. The P2000 magazines are not quite as good as the newer mags. I base this a lot on floorplates of the newer HK's.
I have seen lots of bad Glock mags. This is simple for me. Due to price, Glock mags are really disposable. I use the heck out of them...and sell them and buy new ones. The HK mags tend to stay around. I used to go through .45 USP mags pretty often,mans with those,most was an issue. With the VP 9/P30 and newer .45 mags, they are really superior mags in my opinion to everything
else.....and I accept the cost of that and buy on sale.
Also....remember the little Vikings you are seeing....they are only wearing helmets with war axes:cool: Naked hairy large mammals scares the masses.


Ditto. They are truly bulletproof, and easy to load, AND easy to disassemble. Usually you get one or two (easy disassembly, easy loading, solid reliability) but rarely get all three. HK gives you all three.

.
Yep, add in that Hk's don't need the magazine to extract and eject properly is also a bonus. Imagine, great magazines that have all the characteristics you noted, AND the gun actually works without the magazines through the entire cycle of operation.

[psalms144.1]

Also....remember the little Vikings you are seeing....they are only wearing helmets with war axes:cool: Naked hairy large mammals scares the masses.Things that make you say "Ewwww..."

[Dagga Boy]

Things that make you say "Ewwww..."

Exactly....visual flashbang.

[BaiHu]

Impressions now that I have an extended slide stop and mag release on it.

1) Vastly easier for me to reload. I'd say my dry fire reloads went from the mid 3s to the low 2s around 2.3X or 2.4x
2) Glock is infinitely easy to play around with. I really do enjoy the ability to just say eff it, let's just fix it this way for very little $$.
3) I never had to do any of the above with my HKs -- LOL!!

I'm still looking to see what my next live fire session looks like.

[Notso]

3) I never had to do any of the above with my HKs -- LOL!!

This. My buddy just went through the process of picking his first gun for him and his wife (he did a quick NRA class and is going to get better training soon) but he picked a P30 v1. He's getting the LE version with 3 mags and mepros and right out of the box he doesn't have to do a thing to that gun. It's kind of nice.

[BaiHu]

Forgive me if you'd heard this all before. I'm sure many of you have, but this has now become my more open journal of my G19 chronicles.

Although I lost my shot timer due to a lack of batteries today, I did some decent shooting.

Some observations:

1) Extended slide release was immediately removed after my support hand thumb engaged it too many times. 2 minutes later the stock part was back on.
2) I had some grip tape here/there: where slide serrations would be, web of dominant hand, support thumb on frame. I removed it all except for the strong side slide so I have a bit more texture to grip under the frame for a press check.
3) My reloads felt very smoothe and it was unfortunate I couldn't run the clock.
4) My trigger press and sight tracking seemed very smoothe too.


Tests I ran

1) I ran the Test from concealment and that was the only time the timer was running right. The friend/RSO that was there said it looked like I was heading for 10 when it conked out. Had them all in the black. This is typically very difficult for me to pull off on the P30. I'm usually 13.XX from concealment if I want to keep them in the black. I didn't think to take pictures and I already crumpled it up and threw it out in order to isolate the below target.

2) I ran a 5 shot group at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15 and 25 yards with one sight picture and 4 follow ups while trying to maintain a good sight picture/alignment/tracking. I had to play with the POA at 15 and 25 yds, so I shot them a 2nd time and they're assigned a '2' over the slash mark. I believe these are 3" circles and you'll have to look carefully, b/c each circle is numbered out of order and the yardage is placed next to it. NOTE: my 10 yd group was better than my 10...concentration BaiHu-san...

7507

3) I ran a randomized reload drill at 3 yds using the same circles as above. Forgot a picture. It was mainly a mark the misses event, so you wouldn't see much other than an 'oh, he managed to keep them in the circle' kind of visual. I did this b/c it's my biggest failing on the Dot Torture. I found I was able to track my sights better and keep a consistent shot on my draw. My shot/s after reload are typically better than my first shot out of the draw. For some reason, even if I'm in the circle, I'm not as consistent from the draw. Something I need to work on.

4) I ran a FAST as fast as I could w/o a timer. Still good practice. I used a USPSA cardboard and just aimed for the -0 area of the head for a smaller point of reference.

7508

All in all, I'm enjoying the journey and I haven't even gotten a decent set of sights on them yet...

[BaiHu]

Oh, I forgot, in case no one has reviewed the PMAGS for G19 (https://www.midwayusa.com/product/123705/magpul-pmag-15-gl9-magazine-glock-19-9mm-luger-15-round-polymer-black).

Pros: They feel good, drop fine and have a better mag spring, IMO, than the OEMs. What does that translate to? I find that you can push the follower down with a vertically fed round easier in the OEM mags whereas the follower/spring on the PMAGS has a more even resistance and that it seems impossible to duplicate.

Cons: They have a double plate looking base, so they stick out a bit more and that might mean printing for some. For the record, I did not have this problem. There is no round indicator on the magazine.

[BaiHu]

In about 2 weeks and half a dozen FASTs, I'm already close to my P30 record. I ran some other tests today, but I'll post them later.

https://vimeo.com/164505903

Below are the stills of my 3rd FAST.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/99de6b6bef5dacf9a8fefb23b8d6b62b.jpg
The non-markered shots are the last run. The other 2 were 6.45C and 6.44 -1H. I'll post splits later.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/5607a0110c9db1254bdada876fb04ec3.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/5e6fc2027ca0e7905fe4708897661e1c.jpg

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[chl442]

As a guy that carried a Glock 17 or 19 daily since 1996
and went through a number of formal courses with those guns
I'll share some of my thoughts. I switched to appendix carry 7 years ago after a right shoulder injury kept me from accessing my gun from the milt sparks summer special I had always used. I happily carried a Glock 19 appendix until August of 2015. This was about the same time I started working in a large trauma hospital and got to see firsthand a decent amount of serious and sometimes fatal lower extremity vascular injuries. I saw enough that for me personally I wanted out of striker fired guns altogether.
I switched to the P2000 TLG LEM and after 8 months of really working with the system I've found it to be
a better solution for me. Once Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs got me dialed into working the LEM trigger I'm not
finding myself held back in my shooting at all. Does the P2000 in 9mm have less capacity than my Glock 19s ? Yep . Are the magazines more expensive ? Absolutely. But being able to have a gun I can thumb trap the hammer on a reholster was worth it to me. My only gripe about the P2000 is lack of sight options . But I can live with the standard trijicon 3 dot sights with the rear blacked out with a sharpie.
Just my thoughts.

Chris

[LSP972]

My only gripe about the P2000 is lack of sight options .

Trijicon HDs, bud. Greatest thing since sliced bread.

.

[chl442]

Trijicon HDs, bud. Greatest thing since sliced bread.

.

Hey LSP972
I've yet to try the HD's as I've wondered how well they would work for distance shooting .
I was very much used to the U notch type rear as I've always ran 10-8's with the .125" front post with a tritium dot as my go to sight on all my glocks. As many here have talked about the P2000 is the red headed stepchild for sights options. I have a 3rd P2000 sitting in the vault that's got less than 500 rounds thru it that may get a set of the HD's to try them out and measure my performance.

Thanks
Chris

[BaiHu]

As a guy that carried a Glock 17 or 19 daily since 1996
and went through a number of formal courses with those guns
I'll share some of my thoughts. I switched to appendix carry 7 years ago after a right shoulder injury kept me from accessing my gun from the milt sparks summer special I had always used. I happily carried a Glock 19 appendix until August of 2015. This was about the same time I started working in a large trauma hospital and got to see firsthand a decent amount of serious and sometimes fatal lower extremity vascular injuries. I saw enough that for me personally I wanted out of striker fired guns altogether.
I switched to the P2000 TLG LEM and after 8 months of really working with the system I've found it to be
a better solution for me. Once Nyeti and Wayne Dobbs got me dialed into working the LEM trigger I'm not
finding myself held back in my shooting at all. Does the P2000 in 9mm have less capacity than my Glock 19s ? Yep . Are the magazines more expensive ? Absolutely. But being able to have a gun I can thumb trap the hammer on a reholster was worth it to me. My only gripe about the P2000 is lack of sight options . But I can live with the standard trijicon 3 dot sights with the rear blacked out with a sharpie.
Just my thoughts.

Chris
If I whisper it, maybe it will still come out soon, but hopefully a whisper/ gadget/whisper will be here soon.

I feel you regarding the hammer and I spent 6 years running the P30, with most of that time in appendix. I'm just taking the journey and sharing my current vista.

Trijicon HDs, bud. Greatest thing since sliced bread.

.
Indeed!

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[BaiHu]

The Test from concealment. If anyone has the dimensions of the rings, I'll tally up the score. I'm not sure if this was a proper B8, but it looked close. Worst case, I'll run it again next week with a proper B8. Below looks to be a 5" across 'in the black' for a B8.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/c6d5af4e711b663a8f4cf41e74ec39ee.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/7493513c20c94bec89079f786fc5e03f.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/a77bcd9840dca3fa71ebdb653fed5eb0.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/a5cbf483fbb1467f8c1630581fa0365a.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/9fa864459216d5c2471bb414ffda9263.jpg

1st 5x5 from concealment

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/14c81f947a320612afa41cbc70f32180.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/8be9aa8efe67f407b9e86e3a77bac303.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/af33bc60264b070d5722db76f03212dc.jpg

2nd 5x5
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/756c9c6e77b6e8371d6cb8d6d7909e5f.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/ed78af716dd8a0aee8f06d72a848fafd.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/91589acb785b301ad0ce3bda50c7a741.jpg

Lastly, I did a really shitty job on a Dot Torture. I just run them too fast usually and given my success above, I think I just ran downhill...It was a 36/50 at 5 yds. I really dropped hard (9 pts) on the 1 & 1 and 2 & 2. I need to slow down my Dot Torture practice.

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[BaiHu]

The other 2 FASTs
1st one was clean.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/718c2f1bc46e6b4497759649b95ad2ce.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/8ee25b5af1006488fa88d1c32c4408e4.jpg

-1H
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/25679e1ce8c81ed5feb57edc01254e8a.jpg

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/12a06a1decd651a8079d1f21833e373f.jpg

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[LSP972]

Hey LSP972
I've yet to try the HD's as I've wondered how well they would work for distance shooting .


Well, you get all sorts of recommendations here… usually from younger guys with still-primo vision. HDs aren't exactly their choice for the ultimate/whiz bang/beard-approved sight.

All I can tell you is, for MY tired old astigmatism-ed eyes, HDs have been a Godsend. The huge, bright dot (get the green) surrounding a trit insert really grabs your attention, and it nestles in the U-shaped rear quite comfortably.

And for close-in work, you're ON it instantaneously. I have them on a tired old G19, and two USPc 9mm's; about to put a set on a USPc .357 Sig. Be aware, however, that they are registered for HK's preferred "dead-on hold"… which means you must cover your intended POI with the front dot before pressing the trigger. Some folks don't care for that. I myself was always a "six o'clock hold" guy, but when I got serious about HKs I easily transitioned my POA to dead-on

Both dove-tails on the P2000 are definitely wider than the USPc, so hopefully they make a version for it. Both of our P2000s are now "stash guns" (i.e., they don't get shot anymore), so I haven't done any research on them, sight-wise. The ones I have had all featured the issue low-profile Trijicons, which work well enough; but by the time my eyes got bad enough to be sketchy with them, I had moved on to the HK45C so it didn't matter.

If you can find a set for your P2000, I think you will be extremely pleased with them.

.

[Mr_White]

I've yet to try the HD's as I've wondered how well they would work for distance shooting

Haven't tried the HDs myself, but I am mentally primed for HDs or MRDS or something as my eyes go downhill. Some people do seem to report difficulty with precise/distance shooting with 'wide dimensions' sights like the HDs, but that's by no means universal. A bunch of PF members have done EXCELLENT distance work with HDs. I wouldn't dismiss them out of hand in that regard.

[Mr_White]

The Test from concealment. If anyone has the dimensions of the rings, I'll tally up the score. I'm not sure if this was a proper B8, but it looked close. Worst case, I'll run it again next week with a proper B8. Below looks to be a 5" across 'in the black' for a B8.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160428/c6d5af4e711b663a8f4cf41e74ec39ee.jpg

X-ring is just under 1.75" diameter.

10-ring is 3-1/4" diameter.

9-ring (The Black) is 5-1/4" diameter.

8-ring is 7.75" diameter.

Not sure the rest, but that's what I got on the PF printable B8 here: https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=281&d=1322428748

[Matthew]

If I whisper it, maybe it will still come out soon, but hopefully a whisper/ gadget/whisper will be here soon.

I feel you regarding the hammer and I spent 6 years running the P30, with most of that time in appendix.

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I'm not sure if it is possible, but I was thinking about this the other day when comparing the G17/G19 to P30 LEM. I was considering the two main attractive points for a self-defense handgun carried in AIWB: 1) something to block the firing pin when holstering and 2) a "threat management" type trigger. So, I basically describe a P30 LEM. But, what about the Glocks I already have? The Gadget will take care of issue #1. Is there anything that can help issue #2? The only thing that I can think of is a NY1/"-" connector combo. Obviously nothing will match a LEM trigger, but is it mechanically possible through any factory combination of springs/connector that can increase takeup and offer the ability to get out of a press if need be?

[chl442]

[QUOTE=Matthew;438359]I'm not sure if it is possible, but I was thinking about this the other day when comparing the G17/G19 to P30 LEM. I was considering the two main attractive points for a self-defense handgun carried in AIWB: 1) something to block the firing pin when holstering and 2) a "threat management" type trigger. So, I basically describe a P30 LEM. But, what about the Glocks I already have? The Gadget will take care of issue #1. Is there anything that can help issue #2? The only thing that I can think of is a NY1/"-" connector combo. Obviously nothing will match a LEM trigger, but is it mechanically possible through any factory combination of springs/connector that can increase takeup and offer the ability to get out of

Matthew,

In regards to issue #2 there's been some posts in the past by Nyeti regarding his Glocks set up with "anti skimmer " triggers, that may be worth a look.
When I decided to go to LEM trigger HK's being able to thumb trap the hammer on a
reholster and having that layer of safety was my primary concern. After working exclusively with both my HK P2000 & HK45C LEM setups I've grown to appreciate the level of control I have in being able to get out of the trigger press. So for me it was an additional side benefit I gained making the switch.
I still have all of my Glocks , they just spend a bunch of time in the vault . But at some point they'll all have Gadgets on them as I can't see getting rid of a large quantity of Glocks, magazines, and holsters.

[LSP972]

\ I can't see getting rid of a large quantity of Glocks, magazines, and holsters.

Why not? Then you can secure more HK magazines, holsters, and another P2000 or HK45C.

Trust me, there are enough eager-beaver Glock-O-Philes out there to snarf up your stuff. I began that purge about six weeks ago, limiting it to local folks so as to not have to bother with shipping/FFLs/etc. I'm down to one RDS-equipped G19; two of them, a pair of stock Gen4 G19s, a pair of stock G43s with some Taran +2 mags, tons of magazines, etc, moved in less than a month. I kept the two G17s (one for grandson #1 for a house/truck gun, and one for me for a house gun), and my original G19 purchased in 1992; with sufficient magazines & holsters for all three. My safe thanks me, I thank myself for increasing my HK stash of parts/goodies/one additional pistol, and have plenty of bucks left over for other projects.

At one time, I thought that doing so would be retarded; why sell off a bunch of perfectly serviceable (if not terribly accurate) Euro Pellet launchers and their accessories, all of which would be excellent barter material in bad times, etc? But what if The Hildebeast gets elected, and declares all of that contraband?

Anyway, that's beyond the scope of this thread. I simply had too many pistols that haven't seen the light of day in a long time; years, for some of them. I decided to turn them liquid assets while I still could. I've been told it was a dumb move; perhaps. But it sure did feel good, if that doesn't sound too bizarre…;)

.

[LOKNLOD]

But what if The Hildebeast gets elected, and declares all of that contraband?
.

Then they'll be worth even more.

[EVP]

I know you are comparing your p30 to g19 but it is interesting to see how different shooters run one platform better then another.

Some run a vp9 better then glocks and it seems you ran the glock better then the vp9s

[BaiHu]

New day. New records broken. All tests below done from JMCK AIWB.

The Test
1) 88 1x 5.98 seconds: 1.95/48/48/45/47/44/42/41/40/48
2) 90 0X 5.68 seconds: 1.76/46/46/46/43/43/42/46/42/41

5x5
1) -1.5 (split the line)? A bit crappy: 2.91: 1.70/35/31/29/26
2) 2.56 C: 1.52/32/26/24/22
1st
7571
2nd
7572

[GJM]

Now you are showing off -- all those years with a LEM trigger are paying off now that you are shooting a pistol with a target management trigger.

[Mr_White]

New day. New records broken.

The Test
1) 88 1x 5.98 seconds: 1.95/48/48/45/47/44/42/41/40/48
2) 90 0X 5.68 seconds: 1.76/46/46/46/43/43/42/46/42/41

Congratulations! That is excellent. Don't forget to list that those The Tests were from the concealed holster too...

[BaiHu]

Now you are showing off -- all those years with a LEM trigger are paying off now that you are shooting a pistol with a target management trigger.

Ya know, it's funny you say that. I was just chatting with Mr_White and although I'd like to run some side by sides this coming week with the P30, I think this has a lot less to do with the trigger and a lot more to do with the grip angle. I just feel like I can bear down easier on the Glock so that I have a lot less issues tracking the sights.

When I ran that 1st and 2nd Test, I couldn't believe that I put those times down. I honestly thought the timer was malfunctioning until I clicked through the results. As I said to Mr_White, "I was just tracking the sights and pulling the trigger--time was not on my mind." This is something that's been elusive to me with the P30 for the last 6 years. I'd like to give the P30 another fair shake soon, but the confidence I've gained after switching to the Glock is unmistakable.

I'll post the picture of the Test later as I need to color code it all due to me shooting a 3rd one that I aborted due to a guy running an AR and I knew it was going to screw the timer up, b/c I wasn't running sub 20 splits at 10 yards-LOL!

[chl442]

Why not? Then you can secure more HK magazines, holsters, and another P2000 or HK45C.

Trust me, there are enough eager-beaver Glock-O-Philes out there to snarf up your stuff. I began that purge about six weeks ago, limiting it to local folks so as to not have to bother with shipping/FFLs/etc. I'm down to one RDS-equipped G19; two of them, a pair of stock Gen4 G19s, a pair of stock G43s with some Taran +2 mags, tons of magazines, etc, moved in less than a month. I kept the two G17s (one for grandson #1 for a house/truck gun, and one for me for a house gun), and my original G19 purchased in 1992; with sufficient magazines & holsters for all three. My safe thanks me, I thank myself for increasing my HK stash of parts/goodies/one additional pistol, and have plenty of bucks left over for other projects.

At one time, I thought that doing so would be retarded; why sell off a bunch of perfectly serviceable (if not terribly accurate) Euro Pellet launchers and their accessories, all of which would be excellent barter material in bad times, etc? But what if The Hildebeast gets elected, and declares all of that contraband?

Anyway, that's beyond the scope of this thread. I simply had too many pistols that haven't seen the light of day in a long time; years, for some of them. I decided to turn them liquid assets while I still could. I've been told it was a dumb move; perhaps. But it sure did feel good, if that doesn't sound too bizarre…;)

.

LSP972
While it is a bit outside the scope of the thread , I'm very much heading down path of acquiring more HK45C's with plenty of 8 and 10 round mags along with a few s&w snubs for the very reasons you mention. I intend to really start putting in the work with my HK45C's after the September class with Ernest Langdon.

[BaiHu]

Here's the 88 on The Test. There was only grease on that 8/9 edge near 630 so I made it an 8.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/db689e195c8f2ef01dff12cbf106d6b3.jpg

Here's the 90 in repro on a fresh B8. There was grease and cut into the 1145 area 9/8, so I gave myself that one.
http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/6da9375b5db91d562d83185f0e45160e.jpg


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[Leroy]

BaiHU, if you shoot the Glock better than the P30/VP9 pistols and want to still run an HK try the USP. I found that the USP shoots very well for me but I cannot shoot a P30 to say my life. I have never had success with pistols with real curvy grips. The USP has flat sides like a Glock although the grip angle is on the opposite side of the spectrum. The USP also has a better trigger than the P30 that breaks further out.

[CCT125US]

The USP also has a better trigger than the P30 that breaks further out.
I will have to check into the break point, been a long time since I handled / owned a USP. I will have to look into comparisons of the P2000 vs. USP.

[GJM]

BaiHU, if you shoot the Glock better than the P30/VP9 pistols and want to still run an HK try the USP. I found that the USP shoots very well for me but I cannot shoot a P30 to say my life. I have never had success with pistols with real curvy grips. The USP has flat sides like a Glock although the grip angle is on the opposite side of the spectrum. The USP also has a better trigger than the P30 that breaks further out.


I will have to check into the break point, been a long time since I handled / owned a USP. I will have to look into comparisons of the P2000 vs. USP.

I just grabbed my USP 45 and P30L. I see the shorter reset on the USP, but both triggers seem to break in the same place?

[breakingtime91]

Cool thread. I have been debating trying a glock again, especially because my LEM guns are squared away and I have a gadget coming.. Who knows, I also want a lot of things.

[LSP972]

Then they'll be worth even more.

And illegal to possess.

.

[Leroy]

I just grabbed my USP 45 and P30L. I see the shorter reset on the USP, but both triggers seem to break in the same place?

When i compared them it was from the beavertail to the trigger. I am also talking about DA/SA if that matters.

[BCL]

I just grabbed my USP 45 and P30L. I see the shorter reset on the USP, but both triggers seem to break in the same place?

They break in the same place, but since the USP has a longer (front-strap to back-strap) grip, it would feel as if the trigger breaks further out. I think (I could be wrong) that this is what Leroy was referring to.

[Leroy]

They break in the same place, but since the USP has a longer (front-strap to back-strap) grip, it would feel as if the trigger breaks further out. I think (I could be wrong) that this is what Leroy was referring to.

This