Trial of local deputy charged with second degree manslaughter

[Crusader8207]

A local Reserve Deputy while attempting to use his taser inadvertently pulled his firearm and shoots and kills the offender. He was charged with Second Degree Manslaughter. The trial begins on Monday.

His attorney went to a local gunsmith to replicate the firearm he used in the incident (Smith & Wesson 340 with a lightened trigger) who questioned the request to do the work. Will be interesting to follow. As a result to this incident one year ago, the Sheriff resigned and there was a large exodus of high ranking officers. It will be interesting to follow the case.

Judge denies motion to turn over Bates' gun for trigger testing
http://ktul.com/news/local/judge-denies-motion-to-turn-over-bates-gun-for-trigger-testing

[HCM]

A local Reserve Deputy while attempting to use his taser inadvertently pulled his firearm and shoots and kills the offender. He was charged with Second Degree Manslaughter. The trial begins on Monday.

His attorney went to a local gunsmith to replicate the firearm he used in the incident (Smith & Wesson 340 with a lightened trigger) who questioned the request to do the work. Will be interesting to follow. As a result to this incident one year ago, the Sheriff resigned and there was a large exodus of high ranking officers. It will be interesting to follow the case.

Judge denies motion to turn over Bates' gun for trigger testing
http://ktul.com/news/local/judge-denies-motion-to-turn-over-bates-gun-for-trigger-testing

There is a lot more to this case. The "Deputy" is a wealthy cop buff and financial supporter of the Sheriff's re-election campaign. Apparently there are also questions whether he actually attended or completed some of the training which was required for his reserve commission. There was a thread on this here sometime back.

[Crusader8207]

There is a lot more to this case. The "Deputy" is a wealthy cop buff and financial supporter of the Sheriff's re-election campaign. Apparently there are also questions whether he actually attended or completed some of the training which was required for his reserve commission. There was a thread on this here sometime back.

Yes there certainly is a lot more to the case. He was the Sheriff's insurance agent who apparently bought his way into the job.

I vaguely recall the older thread.

[Tamara]

Yes there certainly is a lot more to the case. He was the Sheriff's insurance agent who apparently bought his way into the job.

I vaguely recall the older thread.

Here (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15774-Bates-the-gun-and-training-Tulsa&highlight=bates+taser).

[Nephrology]

I don't understand why an older gentleman with an otherwise successful career would want to actually act in his capacity as a reserve deputy. I can totally see myself wanting a reserve commission for LEOSA, otherwise my job is already enough work as it is.

Do reserve deputies have some minimum # of annual service hours? If so is there any reason you couldn't just fulfill these by working parades and directing traffic outside of elementary schools?

[Tamara]

I don't understand why an older gentleman with an otherwise successful career would want to actually act in his capacity as a reserve deputy.

The ways of the hardcore holster sniffer are strange and hard to parse.

Like the guy at the gun shop I used to work at. Buddies w/the owner, he was a successful, middle-age dude. When not driving his Lexus RC, he drove a new Camaro with the blue line front license plate and the full panoply of Barney lights on the dash and in the rear window. I'd just assumed he had a reservist badge with some local department, but when I asked, I was told it was because he was the "head of his church's security team".

[Wayne Dobbs]

The ways of the hardcore holster sniffer are strange and hard to parse.

Tamara nails it (as she often does). Cop buffs are simply odd in some dimension and that dimension is often hard to discern.

[11B10]

Tamara nails it (as she often does). Cop buffs are simply odd in some dimension and that dimension is often hard to discern.



And this ^^^^ is what makes it so hard for we NON-LEO'S to convince people we're sincere. Who can blame a cop for being skeptical these days? The very LAST thing I ever want to do is have LE think I'm an oddball. It reminds me of when I tried to explain to the Mrs. why I began carrying. While she is extremely supportive (and for that I'm very grateful), I still had to tell her: "I am not - and don't want to be a cop. That's not what this is about." Now, if I weren't so freakin old, I'd be of a different mind. She gets it now.

[Trooper224]

I don't understand why an older gentleman with an otherwise successful career would want to actually act in his capacity as a reserve deputy. I can totally see myself wanting a reserve commission for LEOSA, otherwise my job is already enough work as it is.

Do reserve deputies have some minimum # of annual service hours? If so is there any reason you couldn't just fulfill these by working parades and directing traffic outside of elementary schools?

I fail to understand why anyone would want to do the job for free, I certainly would not. Reserve officer/deputy standards vary so widely across the country that it's impossible to claim any kind of standard. This cooter was somewhere he shouldn't have been, doing things he had no right doing and I hope he burns for it. Wannabe's like this guy give the profession a bad name and we don't need any help in that arena. Personally, I look askance at anyone working in law enforcement in a reserve capacity and have no use for them, except perhaps making coffee at headquarters. Do some of them have good intentions? Of course, but I have no desire to spend any of my limited time separating the wheat from the chaff.

[DocGKR]

Like with anything, there are good and bad Reserve LE officers.

In CA, Reserve LE officers had to graduate from the Academy, go through the same hiring testing, and meet the same annual training standards as full time LE. In the late 80's/early 90's up to 1/3 of officers on a shift around here were Reserves. Many of those Reserves were very fine officers.

[Lon]

Our agency's reserve program is currently limited to officers who have recently retired from the agency. They have to fulfill the state required training hours.

Other reserve officers at other agencies have to be state certified (go through the same academy as full time officers) but their quality varies. I know some reserve officers who I would trust with anything, others I would trust for a traffic control post and that's about it.

[TGS]

Not sure if part time cops count as "reserves," but in NJ many cops on duty are Class 2. Class 1 being unarmed seasonal beach cops and meter maids, class 2 being part time guys who are graduates of the same academy, same standards, but can only work so many hours and their arrest authority is only when on duty.

[LtDave]

I don't understand why an older gentleman with an otherwise successful career would want to actually act in his capacity as a reserve deputy. I can totally see myself wanting a reserve commission for LEOSA, otherwise my job is already enough work as it is.

Do reserve deputies have some minimum # of annual service hours? If so is there any reason you couldn't just fulfill these by working parades and directing traffic outside of elementary schools?

Reserve law enforcement varies so much across the country that it is hard to answer. Here in AZ, my county has reserve deputies and a sheriff's posse as well. Some posse members are armed, some not depending on training. Posse folks do the parades and traffic direction. In my county they also transport prisoners to the county seat which is over a hour and a half away from the city where I live. Here in AZ, a reserve officer or deputy has the exact same 24/7 law enforcement powers and CCW authorization as a full time commissioned officer. AZ DPS also has reserve troopers, who usually, but not always, are retired DPS folks. They have to graduate from an academy and maintain training standards the same as the regular troopers. I was a reserve officer in CA before entering LE full time and now work as a civilian reserve for DPS after retiring from CA law enforcement. All reserve programs I've been involved with have had a minimum number of hours required per month, usually about 20. In some agencies, reserves are paid an hourly wage when they work.

[Stephanie B]

My dad was a reserve Middlesex Cty. deputy, several decades ago. Back then, the sheriff handed those badges out to friends and supporters with the understanding that if the reservists used the badges for anything other than getting out of a ticket, they'd have to have the badges removed surgically (not the exact phrase my dad used).

[Hambo]

We had a program and they were academy trained, shot quals, etc. They worked patrol, often solo, usually nights, and got paid about half the hourly rate of a full time officer. From the city's viewpoint wage slaves were great, but I never understood what the reserves got out of the deal.

[TAZ]

In some cases being a Reservist gives you dibs on FT jobs openings. Had a coworker do the reservist thing until a FT slot opened up at the Sheriffs office. Not all reservist are holster sniffers.

[HCM]

In some cases being a Reservist gives you dibs on FT jobs openings. Had a coworker do the reservist thing until a FT slot opened up at the Sheriffs office. Not all reservist are holster sniffers.

My cousin, recently retired as a Sgt, from a California SO. He started there as a reserve. When the time came and they were looking to hire, he was already POST certified, had a work / FTO work history there etc.

It really varies state to state and dept to dept.

[VolGrad]

Not all reservist are holster sniffers.
This.

As with most things here on PF many like to make everything black & white without exception. This sentiment is largely why I took a long absence from the site.

[Hambo]

I don't think ours were holster sniffers, whatever that might be. They took the same risks, albeit for less pay. I never saw anyone jump the bridge from reserve to FT. In fact, there was no one young enough to do it. After I typed my first reply, I remembered a conversation about a retiree who went into the program to keep credentials, maybe because he was teaching. Also, ours might have contributed to a pension fund, so there's that.

[Trooper224]

This.

As with most things here on PF many like to make everything black & white without exception. This sentiment is largely why I took a long absence from the site.

That's life brother. You gonna take an absence from that?

[LittleLebowski]

In CA, Reserve LE officers had to graduate from the Academy, go through the same hiring testing, and meet the same annual training standards as full time LE.

I'm not a cop but I think that all reserve LEOs should meet these standards.

[Tamara]

Not all reservist are holster sniffers.

I sure don't think they are, and I hope I didn't give that impression.

[Nephrology]

I sure don't think they are, and I hope I didn't give that impression.

Nope, me neither. but this particular person already seems to have enjoyed a very long career in a field very unrelated to law enforcement; he was not a 35 y/o EMT or firefighter or something. It seems like he was sort of past the point in his life in which seeking physical confrontation was a good idea, if I may be so presumptuous...

[VolGrad]

Nope, me neither. but this particular person already seems to have enjoyed a very long career in a field very unrelated to law enforcement; he was not a 35 y/o EMT or firefighter or something. It seems like he was sort of past the point in his life in which seeking physical confrontation was a good idea, if I may be so presumptuous...

I certainly am not trying to be argumentative and am in NO way defending the guy on trial. However, I'm not sure either of the points in your post are valid. How long someone worked in another career other than LEO doesn't seem really valid. If a reserve officer meets the quals (which I too agree the same standards as a full time LEO should be met to work as a reserve) then who cares how long he worked in what field. People switch to LE later in life all the time.

The second point regarding being past the point he should seek physical confrontation .... well, let's just say we see LEOs all the time that don't appear to be the fittest fiddles.

I really am not trying to be argumentative. I do understand why some full time LEOs would have their doubts about a reserve officer. I am simply saying things aren't always as black & white as some present it. I believe Hackathorn is a reserve LEO (or was). I believe Ayoob is (or was). I think Vogel is now. I am sure no one here would criticize these guys. I am simply point out the broad paint brush isn't always the best to paint with.

[VolGrad]

That's life brother. You gonna take an absence from that?

Nope. But the Internet ... I can choose to avoid it for a while when I want to. It's my right. I'm not saying I'm going to take my ball and go home and pout ... just saying I can walk away for a while if I choose. Not a big deal.

[nycnoob]

I'm not a cop but I think that all reserve LEOs should meet these standards.

I think it really depends what it is the reserve officers do. I once knew someone who claimed that he was a Reserve LEO because it helped him with some CCW issues and all he had to do was help out at the parades a few weekends in the summer.

[Trooper224]

Nope. But the Internet ... I can choose to avoid it for a while when I want to. It's my right. I'm not saying I'm going to take my ball and go home and pout ... just saying I can walk away for a while if I choose. Not a big deal.

I agree with your perspective.

[TAZ]

I sure don't think they are, and I hope I didn't give that impression.

I dont think you came off that way, but we as a whole were digressing onto a tangent of how little training and WTF would anyone do it. Just wanted to offer perspective on the concept. I know a number of good folks who served as reservist for small local department and the SO. Some did it in the hopes of getting on with the department full time, others did it cause they thought it was a decent way to give back to their community and free up a FT officer from some BS task allowing them to do police work. I dont have any experience with the untrained hand out a badge types. All people Ive interacted with have been adacemy grads who were squared away types. Guess in that, I have been lucky.

WRT the case in question they guy appears to have screwed up and should pay the price like anyone else. He should not get bonus points for being friends with the Sheriff. If the Sheriff did in fact hand out badges or ignore missed training hours, he too needs to be held accountable for his actions. His negligence caused someone to get dead who may not have needed killing.

[HCM]

Nope, me neither. but this particular person already seems to have enjoyed a very long career in a field very unrelated to law enforcement; he was not a 35 y/o EMT or firefighter or something. It seems like he was sort of past the point in his life in which seeking physical confrontation was a good idea, if I may be so presumptuous...

I have no problem with reserves as long as they maintain the same training and standards as full time officers.

I don't think it really applies in this case, as I don't consider Bates a real reserve officer, rather he's an example of some of the downsides to Sheriff's being elected officials.

I've worked with a couple officers in their 60's who were still in great physical condition. They were that rare combination of lifelong athletes with great genetics. One in particular was 63 / 64 years old when I worked with him on a Task force and I am sure he could have kicked my ass (or yours ;-)) even though I was half his age. He was a cop before I was born and refused to carry a Taser because "they're for pussies".

All the reserves I've encountered here in Texas have been retired LEO's.