SPR CQB questions

[Josh Runkle]

School me on the best way to use a special purpose rifle for CQB. My thinking is that transitioning to offset irons or an offset red dot would be too slow and they would also add weight to a gun that is not designed with the idea of CQB.

The lowest power I have available is 2.5x, which is fine for anything past 10-12 yards at high speed, meaning, I can stay on the optic and move and shoot with both eyes open perfectly fine at that distance...

But...what about distances closer than that if you can't transition to a pistol?

Laser? Point shooting? A bright light with a very tightly focused beam? Aiming at the pelvis and placing a scope turret just under the muzzle to form a new sight picture? There's got to be some wisdom out there from someone who's worked this through before. Hopefully someone knowledgeable can answer.

*Calling on guys like Sean or Jack* (or anyone else with experience in this arena)

[Default.mp3]

SLG had one of the LaRue T-1 Ring Mounts (http://www.larue.com/aimpoint-micro-t-1-ring-mount) on his rifle during the OK Run 'n' Gun. KAC also has [url=https://www.knightarmco.com/portfolio/34mm-30mm-scope-ring/?cate_cm=military&term=optic-mounts-military&features=34mm-30mm-scope-ring]a similar mount[/quote]. While it would be extra weight, the cant is much less than a standard 45° offset mount, and I don't think it would not be all that slow at all, at least for orthodox shooting positions.

[El Cid]

Are we talking about a .mil SPR? Do you have a choice in optics? I built an SPR-ish rifle and went with a 1-6. At 1x it has a larger FOV than any Aimooint or EOTech.

ETA: if Jack runs his heavy carbine course I can't recommend it strongly enough! It's where I learned to dislike offset irons/mrds. It was contact to 600 and very eye opening.

I have an AAR here that gives more of the take-aways.
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?153328-AAR-Failure-2-Stop-Consulting-Dual-Role-Carbine-May-31-June-1-2014

[Odin Bravo One]

I have consolidated to three rifles: 14.5" Recce with a 1-6 dot/Xmas Tree, .308 w/ 3.5-21 + T1, and .300 Mag w/ 5.5-22 + T1.

T1 is less than ideal on either long gun. The 1x on the 1-6x is acceptable but still not perfect. However it holds MOA (by my definition) at CQC ranges. My "go to" ideal CQC set up is a 12" .300 BLK and a T-1/T-2, but ammo isn't everywhere and practical necessity keeps my guns into two cases with a dead hooker bag and a backpack as th max I can haul by myself from point A to point B.

[Josh Runkle]

I have consolidated to three rifles: 14.5" Recce with a 1-6 dot/Xmas Tree, .308 w/ 3.5-21 + T1, and .300 Mag w/ 5.5-22 + T1.

T1 is less than ideal on either long gun. The 1x on the 1-6x is acceptable but still not perfect. However it holds MOA (by my definition) at CQC ranges. My "go to" ideal CQC set up is a 12" .300 BLK and a T-1/T-2, but ammo isn't everywhere and practical necessity keeps my guns into two cases with a dead hooker bag and a backpack as th max I can haul by myself from point A to point B.

So, summarizing:

We both agree that an SPR is not ideal for CQB. I typically run 10.5-11.5" ARs with a T1 for 90% of my shooting...I keep it regular and boring.

But...it sounds like for a higher variable optic (I'm running 2.5-10x in this case), you still run a T1 at the same time. Do you recommend a 1 o'clock offset? I really just hate adding weight to anything, and was wondering if there was a trick to getting around that. Also, if you do shoot it at 1 o'clock, how can you hold the gun up with one hand if you need to move a person or handle or something with your offhand? Do you trap the gun under your armpit?

[TAZ]

My experiences are purely SQUARE range so take these comments/opinions with a truck load of salt.

I have an 18" SPR clone that generally sits in a safe now days unless I know I'm going to be using it in a supported position. Aka I like to plink and make little holes with it. It has a 2.5-10 FFP scope on it. For a while I have a LaRue offset ring set for an RMR. Not the unit that mounts to the scope tube but one that replaces the right half of the ring and has a platform for the RMR. Not sure what angle, but it did keep he RMR above bore centerline which I though was an added bonus. It works and required little canting of the gun to get on the dot. However, as with everything practice the crap out of it continuously cause if you don't you'll be hunting for that dot looking pretty retarded and burning time while you're at it. Maybe I'm just not that coordinated or something.

I found myself ignoring the dot and for really close stuff (inside 10) I'd do the best and center the blob in the optic and pull the trigger. Not precision by any stretch, but it was A-B zone capable. Either way I figured that a real person would not be all that happy taking incoming in the areas my rounds were impacting. Generally I'd keep the optic on low power with the illumination turned up bright and ONLY dial up the power when needing to make long shots. This is kind of where the FFP sucked as the reticle thinned out a LOT. The illumination helped. I generally found that it wasn't a 2.5-10 scope, but rather a 2.5 or 10 scope for me. Again square range, stationary targets... The biggest drawback to the SPR IMO was the weight. I'm not muscle man by any stretch, but I don't think I'm a noodle arms kind of guy either. Swinging that HEAVY muzzle around in rooms and such sux.

No NFA yet, so I've gone 16" lightweight with red dot. HUGE difference with handling and for my needs it does the job at every range I will hopefully never need to shoot at. A good 1-n would do the job for even longer ranges.

[Odin Bravo One]

So, summarizing:



But...it sounds like for a higher variable optic (I'm running 2.5-10x in this case), you still run a T1 at the same time. Do you recommend a 1 o'clock offset? I really just hate adding weight to anything, and was wondering if there was a trick to getting around that. Also, if you do shoot it at 1 o'clock, how can you hold the gun up with one hand if you need to move a person or handle or something with your offhand? Do you trap the gun under your armpit?

If I had extra delta points or RMRs I'd use those mounted at 12 on the rear scope ring as I really only use them as an immediate backup sight, and they still beat irons. But I tend to have extra T-1s laying around so that is what ended up on my two long range rifles. I don't use the mini RDS on my Recce gun. As for holding it with one hand? (Smart ass comment coming)........ I go to the gym.

[Josh Runkle]

As for holding it with one hand? (Smart ass comment coming)........ I go to the gym.

Haha. I should've expected that! I can hold and shoot the gun one handed, I just have trouble shooting it when it is rotated to 1 o'clock with one hand, but you don't sound like you prefer that mounting preference.

Ok, so, now you have like an 80 MOA difference between the red dot and the barrel, which is an even bigger cluster than the KRISS (who knew that was possible?). What zero do you use for the red dot? 50m? 25m? 10m?

[LOKNLOD]

Ok, so, now you have like an 80 MOA difference between the red dot and the barrel, which is an even bigger cluster than the KRISS (who knew that was possible?). What zero do you use for the red dot? 50m? 25m? 10m?

With that much vertical offset, I'd say zero it so it's flat out past where you'd start using the main optic, so the offset is consistent, and learn to shoot with the offset.

[SLG]

I do it slightly differently. For a number of years, I did all my CQB with a 14.5" M4. I never found it to be too long, and am very comfortable with that length. No question, shorter is easier, and for the last 5 years or so, I have used an 11.5" gun. On one deployment, I had a 2X ACOG on the gun, and though I don't prefer that, it worked just fine. Aimpoint all the rest of the time, with an S&B 1.5-6 as an option for overwatch.

For personal use, my go to gun currently has an 18" barrel and is set up like an SPR or a recce gun. I have a 2.5-10 NF as the main optic, and a T-2 offset from the tube of the scope. I use the NF for really all of my shots, and the T2 is a backup. If I want to burn down a range drill, like the VTAC 1-5, I will occasionally choose to use the T2 from the start. Is a 2.5X as fast as an aimpoint? No, but the difference isn't worth worrying about for me. As for one handed stuff, good luck using most scopes that way. The eye relief can sometimes cause too much of an issue, but that depends on your build and your strength. If I have to shoot one handed, it's going to have to be relatively close regardless of gun or optic. If I really need to do stuff/control people, I have switched to the handgun a few times, and will do so again.

Don't know if that helps or not, but for me, a gun setup that way is the best compromise between speed and accuracy and range. That is, a GP gun for times when I don't know what I'll need to do.

[ST911]

I have an LT Stealth set up as an SPR, 3-9 variable VX-R. For my purposes, closing the objective cover and running the scope as an OEG works inside ~25yds after learning the holds.

[Default.mp3]

Ok, so, now you have like an 80 MOA difference between the red dot and the barrel, which is an even bigger cluster than the KRISS (who knew that was possible?).That's nothing, check this out:
http://i.imgbox.com/7EWCWIkt.png


For personal use, my go to gun currently has an 18" barrel and is set up like an SPR or a recce gun. I have a 2.5-10 NF as the main optic, and a T-2 offset from the tube of the scope. I use the NF for really all of my shots, and the T2 is a backup. If I want to burn down a range drill, like the VTAC 1-5, I will occasionally choose to use the T2 from the start. Is a 2.5X as fast as an aimpoint? No, but the difference isn't worth worrying about for me.What zero do you have on the T-2, and does it differ from what you'd zero a red dot only rifle?

[SLG]

What zero do you have on the T-2, and does it differ from what you'd zero a red dot only rifle?

50 yard zero. Very slightly different than normal, which would be a true 200 yard zero.

[Odin Bravo One]

Haha. I should've expected that! I can hold and shoot the gun one handed, I just have trouble shooting it when it is rotated to 1 o'clock with one hand, but you don't sound like you prefer that mounting preference.

Ok, so, now you have like an 80 MOA difference between the red dot and the barrel, which is an even bigger cluster than the KRISS (who knew that was possible?). What zero do you use for the red dot? 50m? 25m? 10m?

In all seriousness, the only two rifles that have an offset MRDS are my LaRue .308, which can easily be worked one handed at 1 O'Clock if needed in a pinch, but is set up as a DMR type rifle. The other is my .300 Win Mag which very few people are even holding it one-handed, and I don't know any who are shooting it accurately enough to call it "shooting".

My main Recce rifle is simply 1-6 making it a moot point. When that optic has served its purpose here, it will go on my 12" .300 BLK which will become my "Go-to GP" rifle. I have a 16" 556 rifle set up the exact same way in th event I want to shoot cheaper, or .300 is not the appropriate choice for the task at hand.

Running an MRDS offset as a primary is fairly easy to learn, as is one handed shooting. I don't have a 2.5-10 because I haven't found one priced right at the quality I want, which would be used on an identical set up as SLG's. And I will have to practice those skills to become "good enough".

[RichY]

I do it slightly differently. For a number of years, I did all my CQB with a 14.5" M4. I never found it to be too long, and am very comfortable with that length. No question, shorter is easier, and for the last 5 years or so, I have used an 11.5" gun. On one deployment, I had a 2X ACOG on the gun, and though I don't prefer that, it worked just fine. Aimpoint all the rest of the time, with an S&B 1.5-6 as an option for overwatch.

For personal use, my go to gun currently has an 18" barrel and is set up like an SPR or a recce gun. I have a 2.5-10 NF as the main optic, and a T-2 offset from the tube of the scope. I use the NF for really all of my shots, and the T2 is a backup. If I want to burn down a range drill, like the VTAC 1-5, I will occasionally choose to use the T2 from the start. Is a 2.5X as fast as an aimpoint? No, but the difference isn't worth worrying about for me. As for one handed stuff, good luck using most scopes that way. The eye relief can sometimes cause too much of an issue, but that depends on your build and your strength. If I have to shoot one handed, it's going to have to be relatively close regardless of gun or optic. If I really need to do stuff/control people, I have switched to the handgun a few times, and will do so again.

Don't know if that helps or not, but for me, a gun setup that way is the best compromise between speed and accuracy and range. That is, a GP gun for times when I don't know what I'll need to do.

What reticle do you recommend on the 2.5-10 NF?

[SLG]

What reticle do you recommend on the 2.5-10 NF?

I love NF scopes. For precision stuff, nothing is better for me. For GP carbine use, I don't love the reticle options. I would say pick whatever floats your boat, 'cause they are all compromises in this case.

I'm currently using a Mil-R. I have used a Mil-dot in the past, and will likely go back to that. They have some exciting stuff happening in the next little bit here, and I hope to see a reticle that really does it for my GP use.

[RichY]

I love NF scopes. For precision stuff, nothing is better for me. For GP carbine use, I don't love the reticle options. I would say pick whatever floats your boat, 'cause they are all compromises in this case.

I'm currently using a Mil-R. I have used a Mil-dot in the past, and will likely go back to that. They have some exciting stuff happening in the next little bit here, and I hope to see a reticle that really does it for my GP use.

Thanks for the info. I have a NF on backorder from Larue, but based on your reply, I will cancel it and just sit back and wait awhile for the new stuff to arrive.

[SLG]

Thanks for the info. I have a NF on backorder from Larue, but based on your reply, I will cancel it and just sit back and wait awhile for the new stuff to arrive.

I don't think it is a good idea to wait for the "better" stuff. You'll always be chasing the tech as it advances. Scopes are advancing quickly, but a high quality scope is still a thing of lasting value. If you really want to change it down the road, you can always sell the old one. They hold their value reasonably well.

[StraitR]

Perfect timing on this thread. After months of looking for a used KAC LPR upper (always a day late it seems), I gave up and ordered a Mk12 Mod 1 upper from Kevin at HCS today. I'm not looking to clone a Mk12 Mod 1, so I opted for no AE collar/break and a URX 3.1 instead of the FF RAS (I guess I cloned the LPR though). I have a Leupold VX-R 3-9 that will go on it for now, to be updated later, as there are other priorities ahead of it (a case of Mk262 for starters). Anyway, I have a spare RMR and T-2 so I've been trying to decide whether or not I should use one on the SPR and where to mount it if I did. This will be my new coyote gun, so I'm not sure it's really necessary.

Seeing that we actually have a few SPR users, I hope we can keep up a good conversation going on their use. I look forward to getting mine and hitting some of the quarterly SPR matches held locally. And hopefully a class with Jack.

[BES]

If this isn't for gaming then you might consider looking at a light/visible laser combo. There are some really high quality but affordable products coming out now not limiting you to Surefire. I've had the opportunity to do some designated marksman training with an M16A4 (20in barrel) with leupold glass, and PEQ-15s (IR and visible laser). Basically an SPR setup and experimented with this very dilemma . For short range stuff like you're talking about, like in some type of structure, the laser works really well. However if you anticipate that type of shooting outside in bright sunlight, laser is not a good choice, specifically red. Green would be the way to go, MUCH more visible and brighter in daylight. Some people really hate lasers but that's just my 2cents and it has worked well for me given the stuff I've used it for. Also, for the range you're describing 10m and in, you can point shoot that all day long, especially with SPR length rifle.

[Default.mp3]

There are some really high quality but affordable products coming out now not limiting you to Surefire.Such as? The only light/laser combos that I'd even consider trusting besides Surefire would probably be Streamlight and Steiner, and the latter is pricier than Surefire. I know some people have been happy with Viridian, but I've heard too much negative feedback on them for me to personally trust, while Crimson Trace simply isn't read for carbine use, given their use of plastic mounts.

Beyond that, pretty much Steiner is the only option for green lasers in modules actually designed to go on rifles, rather than being pistol-oriented designs that can be shoehorned into rifle use simply because they latch onto 1913 rails, and have little provision for the rough and tumble life of being mounted on a long gun.

[BES]

There's a small company like Elzetta making very high quality light/laser combos at an affordable price. But the name completely slips me at the moment, I have it written down somewhere at home. I'll edit it in later tonight. I don't want to hijack the thread with lights and lasers because OP may not even be interested in what I'm talking about, but another example of an affordable package is HOLOSUN IR/VIS. It might be overkill though and not necessary if you don't have NV capability. It's essentially a class 1 military grade PEQ-15. http://slrrifleworks.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=102&product_id=723 That's 500 dollars for all that compared to 1,300 plus dollars you would spend on the same thing from TNVC or someone else. Just an example of some new affordable stuff. Smaller companies are now figuring out how to produce the tech to the same standards and charging half the price of the brand name stuff.

** Light bulb, Kinetic Concealment is the company. http://www.kineticconcealment.com/product-p/lc-01.htm . They have more stuff on the way too.

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/01/05/kinetic-concealment-kc-mini-green-dot-sight/ .....Is it Steiner, Surefire, Streamlight ? No.. Does it get the job done and not break like other cheap optics and lasers. Yes. Been following Holosun and Kinetic for a good bit because what their offering for the money is great. Have yet to hear a bad thing, or break one of my Holosun T1 clones.....My EXPS-3 EoTECH on the otherhand though doesn't turn on...hmmmm ;)

I always remember this though that my Grandfather used to tell me, "Everything mechanical can and WILL fail"

[BES]

In all seriousness, the only two rifles that have an offset MRDS are my LaRue .308, which can easily be worked one handed at 1 O'Clock if needed in a pinch, but is set up as a DMR type rifle. The other is my .300 Win Mag which very few people are even holding it one-handed, and I don't know any who are shooting it accurately enough to call it "shooting".

My main Recce rifle is simply 1-6 making it a moot point. When that optic has served its purpose here, it will go on my 12" .300 BLK which will become my "Go-to GP" rifle. I have a 16" 556 rifle set up the exact same way in th event I want to shoot cheaper, or .300 is not the appropriate choice for the task at hand.

Running an MRDS offset as a primary is fairly easy to learn, as is one handed shooting. I don't have a 2.5-10 because I haven't found one priced right at the quality I want, which would be used on an identical set up as SLG's. And I will have to practice those skills to become "good enough".

What 1-6 are you using ?

[Odin Bravo One]

I use the Leupold Mk VI.