Running shoe recommendations

[TCinVA]

Those of you who actually know something about running:

I'm looking to buy a good "minimalist" running shoe for work on the treadmill and maybe running outdoors on occasion. I'm rather confused by the number of of options out there and about how one goes about selecting a proper size. I asked someone at a local shoe store, but as is the case with modern retail sales, the person knew precisely beans about shoes...including how to tie his own, apparently...so that was no help.

I've been most seriously considering a pair of NB "Minimus" trail shoes as I've always had good experience with NB shoes and they seem to be fairly popular...but Taurus handguns and Lady Ga-Ga are both popular, so that doesn't necessarily mean they are good. I was looking specifically at the 20 series as they seem to be the most minimalist.

I'm open to looking at other shoes too...I've looked at Merrel's trail shoes and the Vivo Neo-Trails, but I don't really know what I'm looking at.

[mnealtx]

I don't run, but I do like lightweight shoes when possible.

The Vibram Fivefinger line seem pretty well liked by runners - I have a pair of the Treks (eeeeevil kanga leather FTW) and they are, once you get used to the feeling of something being between your toes, VERY comfortable.

The guy at toesalad.com has reviews of several minimalist shoes - I've been considering a pair of the Merrell Trail Gloves based on his review.

[MD7305]

I've been running in and casually wearing the NB Minimus 10 Trail shoes since July. Prior to those I ran Nike Air Pegasus or Zoom Structure shoes. I normally use a lightweight trail shoe because they seem to suit my running style and hold up over a variety of terrain. The Minimus reminds me of racing flats. They're very light and thin. In a Nike shoe I wear a 9.5 and in the NB Minimus I wear a 9. This allows some room in the toe box but tight enough to wear with or without socks. I wore them casually for about a month and then rotated them in my running. I wore them for short runs initially and then worked up to longer runs (for me, 6 to 8 miles). I love them. I was afraid they would be painful due to being used to a thicker soled shoes but I think wearing them for some time allowed my body to adapt.

I had wanted to try Vibram 5 Fingers but my akwardly long toes made them a no-go. The NB Minimus is where it's at for me. I currently have three pairs in rotation and couldn't be happier. I wore them through AFHF in Sept. and my feet never hurt. I also have found that my lower back no longer aches after longer runs as it has in the past. I feel like I get sore less often since I began using the Minimus but that's purely a "feel" thing, I have no data or reason other than I feel better running in them, if that makes sense.

My advice would be to try a pair out but wear them in a bit and start with shorter runs. If you're used to a cushy shoe, too much mileage in a minimalist shoe may result in some discomfort. Goodluck!

[orionz06]

I have these (http://www.tacticaldistributors.com/catalog/product/view/id/4842/s/minimus-trail-10-running-shoe/category/176/) and these (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/Five-Fingers-KSO-Mens.htm). My preference is towards the KSO's for indoor work as I have the most time with them. The NB's are a great shoe to wear around and run outdoors but there is something about the VFF's I really like. You need to try them on to find out for yourself.

For what you describe the Komodo Sport (http://www.vibramfivefingers.com/products/Five-Fingers-Komodo-Sport-Mens.htm) might be the way to go in a VFF. They are the most all around VFF that can handle some outdoor stuff. If you willing to get 2 pairs I would suggest a KSO and the Komodo Sports. The KSO is a very nice shoe to walk around in. If you wanted a shoe, the Merrell Trail Glove seems to be a little better at the moment, but the NB Minimus Trails are very nice too, I use them outdoors. NB is coming out with a zero drop (and improved) line early 2012, the Merrells are zero drop now. Some people have issues with the fit between the two. The other Minimus shoes other than the trails are not worth a damn, skip them.

One thing to note, and it is VERY important, almost as important as the finger on the trigger rule... EASE INTO THEM. A little bit at a time with these or you may injure yourself. It might happen right away or it could happen over time, but when you consider what the difference in drop between the heel and toe is you can see why there are injuries.

I think the biggest take away from these types of shoes (minimalist and minimal drop) is the ability to use a better foot strike. I am not built like a runner but I now can do so, perhaps not the fastest but I can do it. Focus on technique and take it slow (sounds familiar, right?).

ETA: I am not a runner, never will be a runner, and it has been months since staying at a Holiday Inn, if you count the HI Express. These are just solutions that worked for myself based on what I read others did and it took me from having knee pains to running 3-4 miles pretty quickly.

[joshs]

I run in either Vibram KSOs or Merrell Trail Gloves. I have the NB Minimus as well, but no longer run in them due to the smaller toe box and annoying heel lift. I use the KSOs for road running and the Trail Gloves for off road. VFFs don't work as well for trail shoes for me, as foot placement becomes very important to avoid smashing toes. But, I can run faster, longer in VFFs than I can in any other shoe I've tried. Like others have said, ease into it. Changing to a forefoot strike is like going from Weaver to ModIso. You may have to go backwards a little, but the returns are there on the backend.

[JConn]

I have the merrell trail gloves. I enjoy them for running and just wearing every day.
I'm sure you know this but as with everything form is vitally important. Don't start too fast and make sure you spend time working on your form and building strength in your feet before attempting long runs. I didn't do this and hopped in on 2 mile runs, bad results. I had to go back to regular shoes for a while and now I am back to the Merrells but I am starting slow.

In answer to your question, I recommend the trail gloves because they accommodate a wider variety of foot sizes and shapes. I initially wanted the five toe shoes but my toes are too long for them. They also look like shoes, so people aren't constantly asking about your weird shoes. This makes them better for every day wear.

[NickA]

TC- Can't help with the shoes as I've just started looking into them as well, but I can recommend looking at the videos here:
http://www.merrell.com/US/en/BarefootConnection

As noted by the others a change in form may be in order to comfortably run in minimalist shoes /barefoot.
For an entertaining and informative read on the subject try Born to Run by Christopher McDougall. It's mostly about the Tarahumara down in Mexico but gets into some interesting theories about how humans evolved, persistence hunting, and the evils of Nike:eek:

[Odin Bravo One]

TC,

the only thing I have found for a fact when it comes to running shoes is that you need to put them on and try them. Each style and brand will fit a little differently, and shoes properly fit to your feet are essential to prevent foot, joint, back problems that are often associated with poorly fitted shoes. I know you didn't get much help at the shoe store, but perhaps try a running specific store. There are a couple in my area, and they are pretty small compared to shoe stores. But they tend to have employees that are actually knowledgeable and actually get out and run. Most of them actually run for fun, if you can believe that..........

[guymontag]

I think the biggest take away from these types of shoes (minimalist and minimal drop) is the ability to use a better foot strike. I am not built like a runner but I now can do so, perhaps not the fastest but I can do it. Focus on technique and take it slow (sounds familiar, right?).


Don't start too fast and make sure you spend time working on your form and building strength in your feet before attempting long runs. I didn't do this and hopped in on 2 mile runs, bad results. I had to go back to regular shoes for a while and now I am back to the Merrells but I am starting slow.


TC,
the only thing I have found for a fact when it comes to running shoes is that you need to put them on and try them. Each style and brand will fit a little differently, and shoes properly fit to your feet are essential to prevent foot, joint, back problems that are often associated with poorly fitted shoes. I know you didn't get much help at the shoe store, but perhaps try a running specific store.

I cannot condense all the information I've perused on the subject of 'minimalist' running, but the quotes above reflect the most important aspects of it. I run in ASICS Onitsuka Tiger 66's; roads, trails, and tracks. I weightlift in them as well.

Merrell, VFF, NB Minimus, Nike Free, etc. are all commonly named and commonly used. Experiment with them. I hesitate to recommend a particular one for shoes are personal items. My anecdotal data - I own Nike Free's and VFF's, and they reside in my closet as costly but necessary mistakes. I can run in them, but I prefer not.

I know an ultramarathoner, and I always mention his advice, which is especially pertinent for injury prevention: "Listen to your body."

[theblacknight]

Defoor mentioned shoes recently.

Really if your gonna be on a treadmill, go barefoot.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[TCinVA]

I appreciate all the advice. I summoned the power of google and found a running-oriented shoe store in my area staffed by people who actually know something about shoes, feet, and running. I had no idea that my left foot is about 3/4 of a size larger than my right foot until today, for example. The guy who owned the place was a minimalist/barefoot runner himself and was a wealth of information. Looked at several pair including the VFF's. I tried on a pair of Merrell Trail Gloves and did a little bit of time on the in-store treadmill. (Shoe store that actually encourages you to run in running shoes barefoot before purchase...probably an indicator I found the right place to shop.) They felt exceptionally odd but in about 3 seconds I was using a mid-foot stride without conscious effort because that's just how my feet want to land in these things. No rubbing, no pinching, or any other comfort issues I could identify while going 6 mph.

With all the positive reviews I've seen of them and with some time in them on a treadmill I figured they were worth a shot. If I don't like them the store will even take them back as long as I don't go clam digging or anything in them.

My intention is to spend time walking around in them before I do any actual running, then limit the running to bursts of a couple of minutes and seeing how my feet/legs feel. I've been forcing a mid-foot strike in my old shoes by clever use of the incline feature (and concentration) on the gym's treadmills...so the legs and feet are somewhat used to going that way already.

[F-Trooper05]

Definitely take advantage of running barefoot whenever you're on the treadmill. Also, have you read Born to Run by Christopher McDougall? If not, pick up a copy ASAP. It's the minimalist runners' Bible and will motivate the shit out of you.

[Frank B]

TC,

the only thing I have found for a fact when it comes to running shoes is that you need to put them on and try them. Each style and brand will fit a little differently, and shoes properly fit to your feet are essential to prevent foot, joint, back problems that are often associated with poorly fitted shoes. I know you didn't get much help at the shoe store, but perhaps try a running specific store. There are a couple in my area, and they are pretty small compared to shoe stores. But they tend to have employees that are actually knowledgeable and actually get out and run. Most of them actually run for fun, if you can believe that..........

Thats absolutely the best advice on this topic!

[theblacknight]

Go trail running too. It's just fun, and mentally takes you away from the whole"why am I running" loop that plays thru your head. Plus you having hippy shoes on mean you have to pick your line and stay away from rock and roots.Now your not thinking about how much runnng suck,becuse a stubbed toes sucks more .I took my guys to the MTB trail the other day for PT and afterwords they thanked me for it. If you use a good toe first foot strike and breath quietly, you can sneak up on bedding deer pretty easy.

[John Ralston]

Ever since the author of "Running" actually died of a heart attack while running, I swore that the only rubber hitting the road would have Firestone on the side...just sayin :cool:

[JDM]

Ever since the author of "Running" actually died of a heart attack while running, I swore that the only rubber hitting the road would have Firestone on the side...just sayin :cool:

/thread.

Awesome.

[BWT]

Hate to say it but I'm going to have to agree with Sean M.

It's almost like the guy's a SME.

:D

Lame as that was, it's true. I've got wide flat feet. Honestly there are shoes that help my feet not pronate, which they naturally do, there are shoes that work well in the center of my feet for that, they also need to be a bit wider, etc. I also learned that you might want to get shoes a little bit big because when you run your feet fill with blood and swell.

I'd give a strong look at Brooks running shoes, but your feet are your feet, you need to get out there and try some shoes out, there's no G17, M&P9 or P30 of foot wear, it depends largely on how your body is.

I wish there was a text book answer, but, that'd be disingenuous.

I'd say try a couple of different things and go a couple of different places, there was a pretty good exercise/personal fitness group over on M4Carbine.net, they might be able to help you as well.

I'd say gather information at this point, get out and talk to runners.

[seabiscuit]

I had a pair of Merrell Trail Gloves, but I wore holes through them in a couple weeks. The last isn't wife enough for my feet.

You did right by going to an actual running store.

As you get more into it and if you want to go more minimal I'd recommend some RunAmocs from Soft Star Shoes. They're the most comfortable things I've ever worn.

Huaraches are a good bet for summer and for trails. Plus, they're only $25 from Invisibleshoe.com.

[theblacknight]

/thread.

Awesome.

Hope you guys are joking

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

[dookie1481]

Still trying to transition from my foam bricks to Merrell Trail Gloves...I plan on taking a while. Just glance through the Barefoot forums at Runners World and you will see the effects of trying to transition too quickly.

A friend that runs entirely in VFFs vouched for this site: http://barefootrunninguniversity.com/barefoot-running/

[Bratch]

I have a pair of NB Minimus, Merrell Trail Gloves, and Merrell Tough Gloves.

I bought the NB first and kind of on a whim as running shoes. After some more research I found they were not true barefoot shoes (4mm rise) but close. I liked them enough to buy a pair of Tough Gloves to wear at work. I loved the Tough Gloves and bought the Trail Gloves for casual every day shoes.

The Merrells work much better for me, I have a wide foot and even though I was able to get the NB in a wide they are still too small through the toe box, the Merrells have a ton of room. The downside I have found on the Merrells is they are slippery on wet and smooth surfaces. We were at a FB game after a big rainstorm Saturday night and transversing the aluminum bleachers was a bit of a challenge.

My wife bought a pair of Merrells Gloves the day before vacation this year and we probably put close to 40 miles walking over the week on them and she had no problems. She is really liking them too.

[orionz06]

I bought the NB first and kind of on a whim as running shoes. After some more research I found they were not true barefoot shoes (4mm rise) but close. I liked them enough to buy a pair of Tough Gloves to wear at work. I loved the Tough Gloves and bought the Trail Gloves for casual every day shoes.


New Balance is coming out with a true zero drop Minimus line in 2012.

[Simms65]

Depending on whether you want to take the drive, Two Rivers Treads in Sheperdstown WV is an amazing resource. That's the store I thought of when you described your experience.

I run in a pair of VIVOBAREFOOT NEOs. I agree with what others have said that trying on the shoes is imperative, and I'm glad you found a store that helped you out with that.

[johncorey]

Just a quick line or two. I have found after much testing and serious use here on Bragg, that after using the 5Fingers extensively, my toe box has widened considerably. And since the SMA has now banned them, I switched to a company by the name of Altra. So far, so good. Excellent feel, zero drop, and huge toe box without having to get a "width" shoe which would not fit my foot. Worth checking out for sure.

http://www.altrazerodrop.com/

Hope this helps.

[LittleLebowski]

Just a quick line or two. I have found after much testing and serious use here on Bragg, that after using the 5Fingers extensively, my toe box has widened considerably. And since the SMA has now banned them, I switched to a company by the name of Altra. So far, so good. Excellent feel, zero drop, and huge toe box without having to get a "width" shoe which would not fit my foot. Worth checking out for sure.

http://www.altrazerodrop.com/

Hope this helps.

Why were they banned?

[johncorey]

QUOTE=LittleLebowski:Why were they banned?

That is an excellent question. I'm sure the all-knowing Sergeant Major of the Army Raymond F. Chandler III has your answer.....Ive never heard of a down side to the Vibrams when the transition period from regular running shoes is followed properly. They have helped me improve strength and overall flexibility as well as function and control in my ankles, feet and toes. I suppose I should clarify the term "banned": According to the Army, they are not authorized for use during organized PT. Please do not think that some MPs will roll up and arrest some dudes in the gym for sporting them, ha! So now troopers are resigned to wearing them outside of PT uniform events. Maybe one day they'll get it right. Maybe.

[joshs]

I just got a pair of VivoBarefoot Aqua Lites. This is the first "shoe" I've tried that has as good or better ground feel as the thinner soled VFFs. And, I actually feel that I get better toe splay using the Aqua Lites compared to VFFs. I think that the individual toe compartments on VFFs are more restrictive than a shoe with a wide toe box. The Aqua Lites have almost no tread, so if your runs include any off road component, they probably won't work well.

[seabiscuit]

Saw an article that the Army banned them because they don't look professional.

[fuse]

In the navy, though they were never actually banned, we now have an official notice from leadership stating they are legal for official organized command PT.

As always, navy > army

[orionz06]

Saw an article that the Army banned them because they don't look professional.

Lots of people were buying them and not allowing their bodies to get used to them and getting injured. This was per Soldier Systems I believe.

[TCinVA]

They definitely take some getting used to. I did my first session with the trail gloves about a week ago. My feet were OK for the most part...but I wore multiple holes in the skin that are still healing. Not altogether unexpected, but it's limited my treadmill time which annoys me.

[orionz06]

Calves or shins very tight yet? I had a few nights where I kept waking up because I was so cramped.

[TCinVA]

Calves or shins very tight yet? I had a few nights where I kept waking up because I was so cramped.

A little tightness in my left ACL...but nothing too bad.

[orionz06]

How are you liking them now being a little smaller?

[TCinVA]

How are you liking them now being a little smaller?

I gave up on them entirely quite some time ago. I just couldn't run in them for any length of time without popping my ACL and then limping for two weeks.

I changed up to Merrell Mix-Master 2's (not barefoot, but minimalist and they work splendidly with a mid-foot strike for me) combined with some of their running socks and I've been happily pounding out the miles since...when I'm not being too lazy to exercise. I've been pretty damn lazy lately and my pants are fitting tighter again. It's time to get serious about the de-chub again.

[SamMan23]

Out of curiousity are you preparing for an event? or just adding running to your lifestyle?

[saltydog452]

Slight thread drift, but related to the spirit of the original post.

I have two shoe boxes of of orthotics of one type or another. Most came from display racks at the local box mart. A couple are high dollar 'custom' inserts. To varying degrees, they all helped short term.

There have been recommendations from foot/ankle orthopedic surgeons for, and against, a surgical attempt to correct the CAUSE of the discomfort.

This has progressed from being a nusiance to affecting family lifestyle. Taking the grand-kids to the Zoo, or Six Flags isn't an option. Neither is cutting the grass. After about 5-6 years now, I'm about to run out of choices.

There has gotta be something that will let the inflamation heal. NSAID dulls the aggrivation but is not a long term solution.

Suggestions appreciated.

salty

[Drang]

On the subject of running shoes, there are too many differences between individual human bodies to be able to say "Everyone should wear this model of running shoe." At 6'2", two hundred and mumble pounds, and arthritic in various joints, I need a shoe that provides serious support. I also over-pronate badly; during my daily PT days, I was wearing New Balance 998s, which may as well have been designed with my body in mind.

Slight thread drift, but related to the spirit of the original post.

I have two shoe boxes of of orthotics of one type or another. Most came from display racks at the local box mart. A couple are high dollar 'custom' inserts. To varying degrees, they all helped short term.

There have been recommendations from foot/ankle orthopedic surgeons for, and against, a surgical attempt to correct the CAUSE of the discomfort.

This has progressed from being a nusiance to affecting family lifestyle. Taking the grand-kids to the Zoo, or Six Flags isn't an option. Neither is cutting the grass. After about 5-6 years now, I'm about to run out of choices.

There has gotta be something that will let the inflamation heal. NSAID dulls the aggrivation but is not a long term solution.

Suggestions appreciated.

salty

Afraid I have no recommendations, but...
In addition to over-pronating, I have serious flat feet, in fact, apparently there was some surprise in the family when I was allowed to enlist. I guess some folks were stuck in the WWII era. (I also suspect a lot of guys were rejected for other things, but said "flat feet" because at least it was socially acceptable.)

Anyway, my first set of orthotics were Army-issue, built up from leather. They lasted about 6 months, if that, but did obviously help with my knee pain some. When they finally fell apart I discovered the Spenco brand, which also helped some. (Army wouldn't replace the ones they issued, and Spenco weren't too expensive, and may have been better anyway.)

Shortly before we left Colorado Springs, me to Korea and Mrs. Drang back home to Seattle, Mrs. Drang fell and broke her ankle. During the physical therapy sessions her doctor suggested she look into orthotics. She found a booth at the Western Washington Fair, bought a set, and they made a world of difference for her, actually helping to correct some problems she had had for years. She now rarely wears them, just doesn't need them that much.

I came home, bought a set from the same folks, and... They help. Some. Still have knee pain, hip pain, back pain -- despite the lying POS at the VA saying there's nothing wrong with me -- but they do help provide more support than standard insoles or arch supports. People who sold them provide free adjustments to them for 12 years.

Some things, orthotics will work to correct, like hammer toes. Other things, orthotics will probably just mitigate or ameliorate the effects. Only your orthopedist knows for sure, and he may know less than he lets on.

Do let us know if you find a solution besides surgery or drugs, because I'm sure I'm not the only one interested.

[orionz06]

The number of people I know who previously wore orthotics of some sort that have since switched to minimalist shoes continues to grow. I'd seriously find a way to talk to the doctors who support this idea and get their medical advice.

[TCinVA]

Out of curiousity are you preparing for an event? or just adding running to your lifestyle?

Purely for conditioning and burning calories. I loathe running...but when I can do it with an iPad it's tolerable.

[SGT_Calle]

Purely for conditioning and burning calories. I loathe running...but when I can do it with an iPad it's tolerable.

This is exactly how I feel about running.