Reducing Targets to Practice on Shorter Ranges

[Bronco1983]

I shoot a course where some of our shots are from 15 and 25 yards. However, the range that I can practice at only goes to 15 yards. So I want to take the target and shrink it so that I can shoot it from 15 yards away to simulate a 25 yard shot. Has anyone done this before? I'm thinking that I would measure the height and width of the target and multiply it by .60 (15/25=.60). Any thoughts?

I also want to reduce the target so I can practice dry fire in my garage at 5 yards, so I need to reduce the 15 and 25 yard target to sizes that will look the same from five yards. any suggestions are appreciated.

thanks

[nycnoob]

Great timing. I just "figured it out" after seeing a post on Bullseye shooting by Tom Givens (on FaceBook).
By any chance are you going to the "WestSide Range" in NYC?

First thing to notice is that according to this paper.
A comparison of NRA target dimensions (http://www.indecorous.com/bullseye/rings.html)
the B8 target is not really a 25 yard target but is actually a 30 yard target
(well they do not come to that conclusion but do the math and you will see it)

now you can also see that all the target rings have the same MOA they are just scaled versions of each other.
So really what you want is a B3 target which is good for 50ft and will instead simulate the B8.

Oh and one more thing for reference, the B6 is just a B8 with a larger "aiming black".

I just bought a bunch of "repair centers" from here pistoleer.com (http://www.pistoleer.com/shooting-targets/handgun/)

and here is my personally formatted version of the "RangeMaster (Tom Givens) Bullseye Course"
I formatted it so it has no long lines and will print nice so I can take it to the range with me.
the dimensions for the B3 targets are in parenthesis. If I made a mistake in the arithmetic please let me know.




(Tom Givens) RangeMaster Bullseye Course.
(From FaceBook)

Use this as your base-line skill check,
and work toward that elusive 300X300, cold.

FBI-IP1 bullseye, or NRA B-8 (B-3) center. If using the B-8,
hits outside the 7 ring are misses, zero points.



1. 25 (16.7) yards 5 rounds 1 minute


2. 15 (10) yards 5 rounds 15 seconds


3. 15 (10) yards 5 rounds 10 seconds


4. 7 (4.6) yards Start with 5 rounds only in gun.
Fire 5 rounds, conduct an empty gun reload,
and fire 5 more rounds, all in 15 seconds


5. 5 (3.3) yards 5 rounds 5 seconds

[nycnoob]

Other resources you may find interesting:

Ben Stoeger has some nice scaled targets for various sports (not bullseye):
Ben Stoeger Pro Shop: dry-fire-targets (http://benstoegerproshop.com/accessories/targets/dry-fire-targets/)


And so does this guy:
http://insta-target.com/

[Josh Runkle]

It's one thing to practice at a reduced range to cover about 90% of the skills. But, eventually you still have to practice it at the extended range as well. Even if the ratio of target size appears correct against your front sight, your eyes ability to view that target are clearer at the reduced range. Also, when you miss by a slight variation at a reduced range, you might pat yourself on the back for being close, but remember that the distance that you miss by would also be extended when shot at the correct distance. On top of that, the zero of your front sight will change between these distances.

So...your premise of shooting reduced targets will translate to about 90% of the work, but you still absolutely need to go shoot at the actual ranges involved.

Additionally, if you're shooting for a qual or something, and your max range is 25 yards, you really do need to still have a small amount of time pushing very extended ranges. With a pistol, you should probably shoot something like 100 yards 0.5% of the time, 50 yards 1.5% of the time, 25 yards 8% of the time, 15 yards 20% of the time, 10 yards 25% of the time, 7 yards and under 30% of the time, and contact distance to arms length the remaining time. This is just a completely rough guess. My point is that you should shoot the majority of likely scenarios the majority of the time, but that skill sets rarely used should be shot less. Skill sets never used still have occasion to be shot, and should be included in the rotation, but very little time should be included on them (like a 100 yard pistol shot). You need that data about your gun and your skill set and your abilities, but you shouldn't waste time chasing their improvement.

To sum: your plan is ok, but you still need to get out and shoot at distance.

[nycnoob]

Just to amplify what Josh said, you also need to know where your ammo will shoot relative to your point of aim.


Tom Givens has a story about some highspeed FBI class which had an
entrance requirement of some score on a bullseye test. Tom said that
witnessed several shooters being sent home the first day of class
because they did not make the minimum score. Their groups were
tight enough but they were not centered on the black!

These shooters missed out on the class because they did not know
where to hold there sights on a qualification course which was known to
them before they traveled.

[okie john]

These shooters missed out on the class because they did not know where to hold there sights on a qualification course which was known to them before they traveled.

Maybe they didn't understand--or care--about how to zero their pistols, in which case it's an attitude check.


Okie Johm

[Bronco1983]

Great timing. I just "figured it out" after seeing a post on Bullseye shooting by Tom Givens (on FaceBook).
By any chance are you going to the "WestSide Range" in NYC?

First thing to notice is that according to this paper.
A comparison of NRA target dimensions (http://www.indecorous.com/bullseye/rings.html)
the B8 target is not really a 25 yard target but is actually a 30 yard target
(well they do not come to that conclusion but do the math and you will see it)

now you can also see that all the target rings have the same MOA they are just scaled versions of each other.
So really what you want is a B3 target which is good for 50ft and will instead simulate the B8.

Oh and one more thing for reference, the B6 is just a B8 with a larger "aiming black".

I just bought a bunch of "repair centers" from here pistoleer.com (http://www.pistoleer.com/shooting-targets/handgun/)

and here is my personally formatted version of the "RangeMaster (Tom Givens) Bullseye Course"
I formatted it so it has no long lines and will print nice so I can take it to the range with me.
the dimensions for the B3 targets are in parenthesis. If I made a mistake in the arithmetic please let me know.

Can you post a link to the Tom Givens Facebook post?

I don't want to purchase targets, I have a full size target and I want to figure out the math and then reduce it either in my office or at kinkos. I will still practice on a full size range some but this will allow me to practice draws and reloads and sight picture as well.

[nycnoob]

Can you post a link to the Tom Givens Facebook post?



Tom did not discuss scaling the targets in his post. It was about the Bullseye course
I do not know how to link to single posts, but this is the info:

https://www.facebook.com/tom.givens.37?fref=nf

March 29 at 10:35am

This may be a direct link (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10207949048396545&set=a.1613986682034.2080287.1607329273&type=3&theater)



The link I posted about NRA Targets MOA (http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?90809-Minute-of-Angle-Definition-and-Why-Understanding-MOA-is-Important) (Minutes of Angle) will tell you all you need to know about scaling targets.

nssf.org video on MOA (http://nssf.org/video/facts/MOA.cfm)

This is very nearly (inches of target / 100yards of range).
Its a range invarient metric of size.


Video: MOA or Minute Of Angle
by Steve Fischer


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbhD2sU4L10

[Gray222]

Too much math.


Get those shoot and see repair circles, the ones that are like an inch or so wide.

Put them up at 7 or 10 yards and shoot them for accuracy.

[nycnoob]

Too much math.


This is just "ratios", if you want half the distance, use a half size target. . . .

[hiro]

Modern Service Weapons has this target for dry fire (http://modernserviceweapons.com/?attachment_id=579).

It's scaled for use at 4 yards, their description:

"A scaled dry practice target to simulate an 8-inch circle at various common distances for handgun drills. Developed specifically for use with the SIRT training pistol from Next Level Training, but can be used for any type of dry practice."

(Hope I'm ok posting a link to another website/blog).

[Bronco1983]

Awesome, thanks guys!

[HopetonBrown]

The Balloon Goes Up blog has downloadable reduced size IDPA targets.