Winchester Model 12

[nycnoob]

Any one have any direct experience with these shotguns? They look really cool.
Since they breakdown they could be a convenient low profile shotgun. I do
not know anything about them but have got a bug about them.

I would put a limbsaver pad on one and use it with slugs/buckshot for
home defense. Would this be an appropriate gun?

First question, do they all hold the same number of rounds? Some ads say 5rnds
and others 6rnds. I can not own a 6rnd rifle in my current location.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tgd9JDFoYJA


7146

[41magfan]

The first LE agency I worked for actually had one in inventory. It was a left-over from the 50's I was told, in 16 gauge no less. They're sweet shooting shotguns and represent the quality in manufacturing that was prevalent in that era. Like several earlier manual repeaters, the Model 12 lacked a trigger disconnect so you crank them out pretty quickly.

I've seen some presentation grade guns that were absolutely stunning and Herb Parsons did some pretty amazing trick shooting with his Model 12.

[Malamute]

We discussed them a couple years ago. I had a shortened one in a takedown case for travel. Barrel chopped to 20", sling, and rifle sights (Williams shorty shotgun ramp front and bead or sourdough blade front, Rem 700 rifle rear milled for shotgun barrel diameter and sweated on). I think it was Serious Student that found a beater model 12 and basically duplicated mine. Not sure where pics are of mine, I'm a couple computers past when I posted before.

[pablo]

I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a 12 as a tactical shotgun. The lifter is also a shell latch and loading takes more coordination to load than modern pump guns. The half circle cut out on the front of the lifter is the perfect size to snag a thumbnail. It's not the most user friendly design for loading under pressure.

The Stevens 520 and 620 would be another takedown option. They're not nearly the same quality as a 12 and the used prices reflect that.

[Malamute]

I wouldn't go out of my way to buy a 12 as a tactical shotgun. The lifter is also a shell latch and loading takes more coordination to load than modern pump guns. The half circle cut out on the front of the lifter is the perfect size to snag a thumbnail. It's not the most user friendly design for loading under pressure.

The Stevens 520 and 620 would be another takedown option. They're not nearly the same quality as a 12 and the used prices reflect that.

I agree that the model 12 has some quirks, the main reason to get one is the easy takedown. You just learn to live with the quirks. When loading, the thumb is sort of wiped across the base of the shell as its pushed into the mag tube rather than poked in with the finger tip. It bites the finger sometimes trying to poke them in, or not getting the shell in far enough can let the shell and others stream back out. Once getting the loading figured out, they are OK.

They do unload fairly easily by pushing the lifter up to release the shell from the magazine (and more shells all at once if not paying attention) instead of running them through the action.

Just realized another truth of Pablos post. No, I wouldn't get a model 12 as a tactical shotgun. I realized none of my guns are tactical. As a short, reliable, unique in its ability to takedown 12 ga, sure.

[FNFAN]

My first trap gun was a Y-series (reintroduction) and I still have a nickel steel vent-rib field gun. They're from the prime era of quality hand fit guns. Every time I rack the slide it brings a smile.

[Bigghoss]

All I know is that I want one.

[chances R]

I think they are dandy as a field gun, but there are plenty of other good choices that have many accessories readily avaiable.

[secondstoryguy]

I've wanted one since I first watched Bullitt with Steve Mcqueen...

[Al T.]

I've wanted one since I first watched Bullitt with Steve McQueen...

Ditto.

Think that was a Model 12 used in the bar fight scene from Second Hand Lion as well......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkccqolaVGg

[FNFAN]

I've wanted one since I first watched Bullitt with Steve Mcqueen...

Wasn't that an old Winnie '97 thumbuster? Pshaw! Now I gotta watch Bullitt again!:rolleyes:

[Bigghoss]

Ditto.

Think that was a Model 12 used in the bar fight scene from Second Hand Lion as well......


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkccqolaVGg

I love that movie so much.




Wasn't that an old Winnie '97 thumbuster? Pshaw! Now I gotta watch Bullitt again!:rolleyes:

According to IMFDB.org Bullitt had an 1897, and Secondhand Lions had a model 12.

[SeriousStudent]

We discussed them a couple years ago. I had a shortened one in a takedown case for travel. Barrel chopped to 20", sling, and rifle sights (Williams shorty shotgun ramp front and bead or sourdough blade front, Rem 700 rifle rear milled for shotgun barrel diameter and sweated on). I think it was Serious Student that found a beater model 12 and basically duplicated mine. Not sure where pics are of mine, I'm a couple computers past when I posted before.

Guilty as charged, your honor.

It's funny, I was in a HiTS pistol class today, and brought that exact shotgun to show to several other attendees. I call it my Ronco Pocket Shotgun. (Some of you might remember the old TV commercial for the Ronco Pocket Fisherman).

I'll take some pics and post them, if you wish.

I had the stock cut down to a 12.5" LOP, the barrel trimmed to 18.5", and a X/S tritium Big Dot front sight mounted. I tracked down an old Eagle shotgun shell carrier that mounts on the stock with Velcro straps, and is easy to remove.

Mine holds six 2-3/4" shells. According to the serial number it was made in 1928. It disassembles and fits in a small Jansport sling bag. I like to put one of my granddaughter's plastic sippy cups in the elastic side pocket. When you wander into a hotel carrying a sleepy granddaughter, it just looks like a run of the mill diaper bag. The sling bag also carries a spare flashlight and batteries, plastic doorstop to secure a hotel room, Sabre Red, multitool and three speedloaders. Plus a Maxpedition pouch with six more buckshot and six more slug rounds.

Assembled, it looks like Grandpa's old shotgun. Which it is. :cool:

[Drang]

If one were to peruse, say, Gun Broker for 12 gauge Model 12s, how would one tell that the example one is looking at is a take down model, other than it says so in the listing?

[okie john]

If one were to peruse, say, Gun Broker for 12 gauge Model 12s, how would one tell that the example one is looking at is a take down model, other than it says so in the listing?

All Model 12's are take-down. The non-takedown version is called the Model 25.

Speaking of which, DJ's Sport Shop in Bothell had a Model 12 with a ~20" barrel and rifle sights for about $400 on Friday...


Okie John

[Drang]

Didn't think any of the Model 12s we had in the arms room in Korea were take down, but they didn't let me play with them at all except for that one inventory where I gave the armorer a heart attack when I removed the barrel on the grease gun...

[HCM]

I have a short barrel Model 12, because / The Wild Bunch


http://youtu.be/Vmc-AUQ3f9k

[HCM]

And:


http://youtu.be/gOJJm_cSRds

[Malamute]

If one were to peruse, say, Gun Broker for 12 gauge Model 12s, how would one tell that the example one is looking at is a take down model, other than it says so in the listing?

Okie may in fact be correct, though I seem to recall hearing of solid frame model 12's.

If you understand how they take down, you should be able to spot the parts used in a takedown gun, or their absence in a solid frame gun. The video wasn't as clear as it could have been, but there are other references online. One I just saw in a search had pictures. Its for a model 97, but the takedown is identical.

http://www.milesfortis.com/church/akc12.htm

Besides the cross pin in the end of the mag tube, theres extra metal in the front of the receiver that is part of the barrel/mag assembly. You can see the joint in pics, and recognize it if seeing one that doesn't have it.

If you find one that's sloppy loose, don't panic, they had an adjustment to take up wear. I bought one that was so loosey goosey it looked unsafe to shoot to most. I looked at it and realized there was a lot of adjustment left, and bought it fairly cheap. I think it took 2 or 3 notches of adjustment to snug up, and should be good for another 70 years or so of use, maybe more if kept snug instead of letting it get loose and shooting it. Its a 5 minute job with a swiss army knife or plain screwdriver to tighten one up.

The sliding plate with small teeth on the end is the adjuster. The screw is loosened, the lock plate is pulled back, the barrel collar turned slightly to the next tooth, plate pushed back in, and check it. I haven't seen any so far that were anywhere near the end of their adjustment.

http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p206/nody_sgw/M12/IMG_1570_zpsc1d4db1c.jpg (http://s129.photobucket.com/user/nody_sgw/media/M12/IMG_1570_zpsc1d4db1c.jpg.html)

[secondstoryguy]

Reference Bullitt I know the one used during the chase scene is a 1897 but I think the one in the hotel is a model 12. I haven't seen the movie in a year or two but I remember liking how the hit man puts it together.

Talking about takedown shotguns got me thinking about a gun Kevin Mcclung of Mad Dog knives built in the 90s. It was a takedown 870 "briefcase shotgun". He did this by cutting a hole in the wooden stock and modifying the screw that holds on the stock. Using this screw you could take the stock off the receiver and pull the barrel off in a minute or so. IIRC it would just barely fit in a briefcase.

[LSP972]

Guilty as charged, your honor.

It's funny, I was in a HiTS pistol class today, and brought that exact shotgun to show to several other attendees. I call it my Ronco Pocket Shotgun. (Some of you might remember the old TV commercial for the Ronco Pocket Fisherman).

I'll take some pics and post them, if you wish.

I had the stock cut down to a 12.5" LOP, the barrel trimmed to 18.5", and a X/S tritium Big Dot front sight mounted. I tracked down an old Eagle shotgun shell carrier that mounts on the stock with Velcro straps, and is easy to remove.

Mine holds six 2-3/4" shells. According to the serial number it was made in 1928. It disassembles and fits in a small Jansport sling bag. I like to put one of my granddaughter's plastic sippy cups in the elastic side pocket. When you wander into a hotel carrying a sleepy granddaughter, it just looks like a run of the mill diaper bag. The sling bag also carries a spare flashlight and batteries, plastic doorstop to secure a hotel room, Sabre Red, multitool and three speedloaders. Plus a Maxpedition pouch with six more buckshot and six more slug rounds.

Assembled, it looks like Grandpa's old shotgun. Which it is. :cool:

Sounds right and proper to me. With the looming possibility of EBRs (which includes my FDE Katana) becoming contraband, I have been thinking a LOT about "old-fashioned iron" lately. The fact that such iron was standard issue when I was a pup means no gut-wrenching transition away from Tactical Timmy goodies.

.

[LSP972]

Of course, what I'd REALLY like to have is one of these bad boys:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/burgess-folding-shotgun/

I'd have to load special low-pressure shells (to replicate the black powder shells it was stressed for), but for indoor distances… yeah, it would do nicely.

.

[Bigghoss]

Of course, what I'd REALLY like to have is one of these bad boys:

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/burgess-folding-shotgun/

I'd have to load special low-pressure shells (to replicate the black powder shells it was stressed for), but for indoor distances… yeah, it would do nicely.

.

That thing is wicked cool. Wonder why he didn't include the video he did on it. Watch how fast he whips the thing out and can get it into action.


https://youtu.be/HXvmGtLYwKA

[SeriousStudent]

Sounds right and proper to me. With the looming possibility of EBRs (which includes my FDE Katana) becoming contraband, I have been thinking a LOT about "old-fashioned iron" lately. The fact that such iron was standard issue when I was a pup means no gut-wrenching transition away from Tactical Timmy goodies.

.

Yup, one of my main reasons for buying it. My boss is in San Francisco, and I'll have to visit there 3-6 times a year. So I'm brushing up on the incognito weaponry. I'm doing a ton of revolver and shotgun shooting this year, with multiple instructors.

[Drang]

All Model 12's are take-down....
You'd be amazed at how many of the articles on the Model 12 I had to read before I found one that actually said that.

[Crawls]

Just brought this one home from my FFL today. It's from early 1916 and has been in the family since new.
The original owner, my great great uncle, is believed to have been a exhibition shooter for Winchester. The original stock cracked at the wrist long ago and my uncle re-stocked it with the fancy pistol grip stock. I'd like to find a fancy beavertail fore end to match.

[Poconnor]

I bought a beater model 12 last fall with the intent of turning it into my traveling shotgun. I need to get hot on that project

[blake_g]

I had one years ago, cut to 18.5" with a pedestal and ivory bead on the front end and threaded for Tru-Chokes. The wood was oil finished and all the metal was parkerized dark grey. In a fit of youthful stupidity I traded it off for something shiny and have kicked myself ever since. I just acquired a beater Model 12 that will eventually undergo the same treatment and get stashed in my truck in a Skinner take-down case (and since I've reached what I now refer to as "the age of sound(er) decisions" it is far less likely to be sold off or traded)...

[Gadfly]

I have a model 12 that once belonged to my step mom's father... I never met the gentleman, so not much sentimental attachment. I have yet to fire the gun. It had the long 28" full choke barrel. You guys now have me itching to break out the saw... and nothing good can come of that.

24826

[jeep45238]

I’ll be inheriting one soon - it was my grandfather’s dove gun, and he fed the family with it frequently (grandma hated picking the shot out).

I don’t know how loose it is, but I’d gander not much. Any link or description of how to tighten one up?

This one has a long barrel with a flash-can looking item at the end of the barrel that accepts chokes and has a bead on the top. I’m sorely tempted to make the whole package more handy, but I really don’t want to mess with history either. Is this setup a rare breed, or a common-aftermarket to take different chokes?

[willie]

If you buy one, make certain that it functions properly and is not likely to require repair. Parts must be fitted; few today are qualified to work on one; and repairs will be expensive. For me the Model 12 is too expensive for an out of state travel gun. Another reason not to travel with one is that its attractiveness might tempt others to confiscate it for personal use. Yes, this practice still exists, although not to the extent that it once did.

[Toonces]

This one has a long barrel with a flash-can looking item at the end of the barrel that accepts chokes and has a bead on the top. I’m sorely tempted to make the whole package more handy, but I really don’t want to mess with history either. Is this setup a rare breed, or a common-aftermarket to take different chokes?

Does it look something like this?
24853
Google "Cutts Compensator". They don't all look exactly alike, and the tighter chokes are longer. Could also be a "Poly-Choke". I have no idea if it's factory, but I'm sure Google can tell you that as well.

I have also wrestled with the messing with history dilemma. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. If the gun is not historically significant, and you're not going to use it as-is, does anybody but you care? For example...I have my Grandfather's Remington 722 in 222 Rem. It was the rifle my Grandfather/Dad/Uncles shot 2200 rounds through in one summer, as calculated by the empty powder can generated during that time. My Dad figures it has 15,000 rounds through it. A borescope reveals the throat is ok and doesn't look to have 15,000 rounds, but the 4" closest to the muzzle are trashed. The current accuracy is not up to par with what it used to do, so it just sits in the cabinet. If I don't shoot it, my daughters won't give a rat's ass about another rifle in the cabinet, they never knew my Grandfather. I'm debating spending way too much money to have the barrel rebored and bolt converted to a short action hunting round so my daughters can use it, and will therefore treasure it. The problem is that the money to modify the old 722 would buy each of them a Tika/Howa/Savage in 6.5 Creedmore. Since I'm a sentimental fool, it is still sitting in the cabinet, same as it ever was for the past 18 years I've had it.

[Drang]

For Ss and Gs I checked Numrich, and a replacement 12 gauge barrel for a Model 12 starts at something like $145...

[jeep45238]

Does it look something like this?
24853
Google "Cutts Compensator". They don't all look exactly alike, and the tighter chokes are longer. Could also be a "Poly-Choke". I have no idea if it's factory, but I'm sure Google can tell you that as well.

I have also wrestled with the messing with history dilemma. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. If the gun is not historically significant, and you're not going to use it as-is, does anybody but you care? For example...I have my Grandfather's Remington 722 in 222 Rem. It was the rifle my Grandfather/Dad/Uncles shot 2200 rounds through in one summer, as calculated by the empty powder can generated during that time. My Dad figures it has 15,000 rounds through it. A borescope reveals the throat is ok and doesn't look to have 15,000 rounds, but the 4" closest to the muzzle are trashed. The current accuracy is not up to par with what it used to do, so it just sits in the cabinet. If I don't shoot it, my daughters won't give a rat's ass about another rifle in the cabinet, they never knew my Grandfather. I'm debating spending way too much money to have the barrel rebored and bolt converted to a short action hunting round so my daughters can use it, and will therefore treasure it. The problem is that the money to modify the old 722 would buy each of them a Tika/Howa/Savage in 6.5 Creedmore. Since I'm a sentimental fool, it is still sitting in the cabinet, same as it ever was for the past 18 years I've had it.

Very similar - chevron shaped slots on the side if my memory serves me right. Thanks for the info, I wasn't sure where to start on that one. Might also be a reason to leave as is and start shooting trap weekly with it.

[perlslacker]

If you find one that's sloppy loose, don't panic, they had an adjustment to take up wear. I bought one that was so loosey goosey it looked unsafe to shoot to most. I looked at it and realized there was a lot of adjustment left, and bought it fairly cheap. I think it took 2 or 3 notches of adjustment to snug up, and should be good for another 70 years or so of use, maybe more if kept snug instead of letting it get loose and shooting it. Its a 5 minute job with a swiss army knife or plain screwdriver to tighten one up.

The sliding plate with small teeth on the end is the adjuster. The screw is loosened, the lock plate is pulled back, the barrel collar turned slightly to the next tooth, plate pushed back in, and check it. I haven't seen any so far that were anywhere near the end of their adjustment.


Just keep in mind that if it runs out of adjustment, you need to replace the barrel. I don't know what's involved there but I know it isn't a drop-in job. Not to mention the fact that the Model 12 went out of production in '64 so finding replacement parts is trickier than for a modern gun.

Almost all of the wear on that joint comes from taking the gun down, not shooting it. I grew up shooting trap, and a BUNCH of the guys were Model 12 fans; they would almost never take their guns down because they didn't want to wear out the barrel.

[Malamute]

This makes me curious, if the "old wisdom" was based in fact or legend and assumption. Mine was a 1920s gun. I got it in the early or mid 90s, I adjusted it then, and not since. Its easily been taken down far more times than rounds fired since I got it, and hasnt loosened up any. I suspect the hardest thing on them is shooting them once they get loose at all, but most dont know to adjust them and keep them tight, which I believe accelerates the beating and loosening. I seriously doubt taking it apart puts much serious wear on it, especially if it has any lubrication. I just cant see how it stresses it much. Other moving parts in guns dont wear much from repeated movement, even acton parts.

[SeriousStudent]

Agreed. My Model 12 was made in 1928, and gets taken down a lot. It's why I bought it. It's not uncommon on a single road trip for it to be disassembled and reassembled a dozen times.

It seems to be working just fine.

[farscott]

If you really want a spare Model 12 barrel, try Corson's Barrels at https://www.corsonsbarrels.com/winchesterbarrels.htm A 21-inch barrel choked Cylinder is $250. Not inexpensive, but it allows you to not cut on the original barrel.

I bought my first Model 12 in 1989, and it is a pre-WWII gun with an aftermarket Simmons rib and a Cutts Compensator. It was a state-of-the-art skeet gun when the rib was added, probably in the 1950s. Barrel is still not worn out and has plenty of adjustment. It is mostly retired as I shoot my 870 when I shoot skeet with a pump.

One thing for the Model 12 is no steel and no tungsten shot.

[perlslacker]

This makes me curious, if the "old wisdom" was based in fact or legend and assumption. Mine was a 1920s gun. I got it in the early or mid 90s, I adjusted it then, and not since. Its easily been taken down far more times than rounds fired since I got it, and hasnt loosened up any. I suspect the hardest thing on them is shooting them once they get loose at all, but most dont know to adjust them and keep them tight, which I believe accelerates the beating and loosening. I seriously doubt taking it apart puts much serious wear on it, especially if it has any lubrication. I just cant see how it stresses it much. Other moving parts in guns dont wear much from repeated movement, even acton parts.

fair enough. I admit, I haven't really taken mine down for fear of wearing it out.

[Malamute]

I suspect, from the ones Ive seen, that theres more than 1 lifetime of shooting in the adjustment range. Mine was less than halfway through the range when I snugged it up. It looks like its had a long and hard life, but still chugging along.

I do think it could be a thing with the Winchester takedown rifles, as the adjustments arent as mechanically solid as the model 12s, and a shotgun isnt dealing with the same level of accuracy issue a rifle could be if the barrel to receiver junction wasnt firm enough. Could have been where the reluctance to take them down came from?