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Clobbersaurus
04-10-2016, 10:12 AM
I did a search for this but came up with nothin' useful.

I compete in IPSC production division and I'm wondering if reduced power recoil springs and reduced power reloads are a huge competitive advantage in competition?

I have to say that I've never tried a pure competition production gun with all the bells and whistles, but dudes in my squads are always yakin' about recoil spring weights and their favourite reloads. I shoot factory springs and factory ammo through my Beretta.

I don't want to compromise reliability or beat up my guns but if it's a huge competitive advantage, I may consider it.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated!

#USPSA (https://pistol-forum.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=USPSA)

Luke
04-10-2016, 10:21 AM
My 320 has a 14lbs recoil spring and a springer oversized guide rod. I enjoy it and have had ZERO issues.

I think light springs (not too light) and soft ammo is an advantage, and just from my observations it's more effective of heavy framed guns like CZ, tanfo, witness..

I say give it a shot!

Magsz
04-10-2016, 01:55 PM
Is it an advantage? Yes.

Is it required? No.

Unless you're chasing the top ten, reloads mean nothing.

Even factory ammo can benefit from a reduced power recoil spring simply because of how it will effect how the gun tracks. Sight tracking is an individual skill and there is no perfect formula for every shooter.

Leroy
04-10-2016, 02:16 PM
I think lighter ammo has more effect on performance than recoil springs. Recoil springs have only really changed my timing for post ignition push rather than making a gun feel softer or flatter, the overall design of the gun itself is the real determining factor for the feel. With lighter pf ammo it usually has to be a drastic change to be real noticeable. Like 145pf to 135pf. Going from 135 to 130 not as noticeable. With lower pf ammo I feel that I don't necessarily shooter faster or more accurately all the time but over a lot of rounds have more consistency cause I am less likely to flinch or anticipate a shot. I also find a difference in feel with different bullet weights at the same PF. I prefer a slower perceived recoil cycle so I like heavier bullets in general. I think it makes it a little easier to see the front sight move at the point the shot breaks and feel the gun tracks more consistently. Most of this is shooter/gun specific, lots of variables.

Clobbersaurus
04-10-2016, 09:16 PM
Thanks for the responses guys.

What I'm taking from the responses is that it's kinda-sorta better but it depends on the shooter?;)

I'm chasing top-three at my club match and I'm shooting against guys with full on race kit, if that matters at all in this discussion.

taadski
04-10-2016, 10:50 PM
My recommendation, if you have the capability, would be to explore finding a minor PF load, spend the $20 for a recoil spring kit from Wolf and see what there is to see. Literally and figuratively. :). And as Leroy mentioned, bullet weight can play a big role in the feel of the recoil impulse, even at the same PF.

I think you'll find that as your skills grow, you'll be more adept at detecting the subtleties involved. And probably as a result, more interested in tinkering to bias things toward your preferences.


t

45dotACP
04-11-2016, 02:30 AM
I run the 14lb recoil springs in my Beretta...the recoil on a 92FS is pretty tame though honestly. Tinkering is all well and good, but at least for a full size 92FS, it seems like a fairly high hanging fruit to pluck if you're using factory ammo.

BigT
04-11-2016, 04:49 AM
I find that a properly matched load and recoil spring make a noticeable difference in my ability to track the gun.

I normally aim for a 135 pf with loads, no worries about shooting not for score (except that one time:) ) and no real difference in shot to shot speed ocer a 15pf load

For what its worth when I shot the Shadow the differnce between a 10lb and a 15lb spring was substantially greater than betwen a 150pf and a 125pf load , for me.

PPGMD
04-11-2016, 08:30 AM
I avoided all the spring tuning for a quite a while. But once I got to doing it, I did find that my gun tracked much straighter. And I've left it like that, only replacing the springs over few thousand rounds.

So yes, do respring your gun, but find something that works reliably. And then stop FUCKING with it. The guns that seem to stop working in the middle of the match typically are owned by people that constantly mess with them.

Luke
04-11-2016, 09:04 AM
On guns where you would use a 1911 spring that is not going in a 1911, how do you determine how many coils to cut? One at a time until it will go all the way back?

PPGMD
04-11-2016, 09:28 AM
On guns where you would use a 1911 spring that is not going in a 1911, how do you determine how many coils to cut? One at a time until it will go all the way back?

For my setup, which is based on what Yong does, I cut enough coils until I could lock the slide back. I started with one coil, and cut a half a coil at a time until I achieved my goal.

Sal Picante
04-11-2016, 12:08 PM
What I'm taking from the responses is that it's kinda-sorta better but it depends on the shooter?;)

Light Recoil spring def. helps the gun track better when splitting fast/etc - keeps the muzzle from dipping when it closes shut.
I run a 9Lbs spring and it is noticeable difference when really hammering faster splits and things. The sights jump, but return quickly.

That said, I don't have trouble running my stock-sprung carry gun if necessary...

The beretta is a unique design, running a light spring doesn't beat it up much if you're running white box, atlanta arms ammo, or minor PF stuff.

Running good quality minor PF ammunition helps a bit too - just feels softer to shoot. Less blasty. Having this helps a bit too.

Overall, I'd say it accounts for ~2% of performance?



I'm chasing top-three at my club match and I'm shooting against guys with full on race kit, if that matters at all in this discussion.

Why not try it out?

Sal Picante
04-11-2016, 12:10 PM
https://www.gunsprings.com/BERETTA/92,%2096,%20AND%20CENTURION/cID1/mID2/dID36

9#'s...

(Just change 'em every ~2 months if you use the gun a lot)

Slavex
04-11-2016, 07:58 PM
I run an 11lb recoil in my CZ with a 13 or even the 12 I find the muzzle dips when it goes back into battery. With the 11 it drops right back on target.

Clobbersaurus
04-11-2016, 09:20 PM
Light Recoil spring def. helps the gun track better when splitting fast/etc - keeps the muzzle from dipping when it closes shut.
I run a 9Lbs spring and it is noticeable difference when really hammering faster splits and things. The sights jump, but return quickly.

That said, I don't have trouble running my stock-sprung carry gun if necessary...

The beretta is a unique design, running a light spring doesn't beat it up much if you're running white box, atlanta arms ammo, or minor PF stuff.

Running good quality minor PF ammunition helps a bit too - just feels softer to shoot. Less blasty. Having this helps a bit too.

Overall, I'd say it accounts for ~2% of performance?




Why not try it out?

Thanks Les, I was hoping you would chime in. I'll order up some 9lb springs and give it a try.

I primarily shoot 124g AE, as I don't reload (yet)....

Sal Picante
04-12-2016, 08:33 AM
Thanks Les, I was hoping you would chime in. I'll order up some 9lb springs and give it a try.

I primarily shoot 124g AE, as I don't reload (yet)....

Should be soft enough - You'll notice most of the difference if you're capping at speed...

raks
04-14-2016, 05:43 PM
Does Beretta offer a 9# spring? Strictly speaking IPSC production only allows for OEM factory parts although I know most people will scoff at this, the CRO in me had to speak up. :p

Personally I don't think that changing springs will make that much of a difference in Production, people like to jaw about all their personal/custom mods but it still comes down to the fundamentals. Does 147gr home rolled 'feel' softer? Yes but I've shot my best scores with 124gr factory. YMMV.

Talionis
04-14-2016, 06:58 PM
Late to this, but changing out recoil springs can definitely be useful. I wouldn't advise getting into the weeds with it, but testing a couple different spring weights with your chosen load(s) to find out how the gun cycles and tracks, then choosing the one that is the gives the best tracking while keeping (or enhancing) reliability with that load is a good thing. I got a little fed up with the lack of options to do exactly that for my VP9, so I'm making my own to play with. My feeling is that the VP9 is over-sprung from the factory for non-duty ammo.

Sal Picante
04-14-2016, 07:51 PM
Does Beretta offer a 9# spring? Strictly speaking IPSC production only allows for OEM factory parts although I know most people will scoff at this, the CRO in me had to speak up. :p

I think that is correct. USPSA, on the other hand... you're good to go. (Internal modification)

The kicker is, I don't even know what the factory Beretta 92 spring weight is...

Matt O
04-14-2016, 08:39 PM
I think that is correct. USPSA, on the other hand... you're good to go. (Internal modification)

The kicker is, I don't even know what the factory Beretta 92 spring weight is...

I believe 13# for 9mm and 14# for .40.

Sal Picante
04-14-2016, 10:02 PM
I believe 13# for 9mm and 14# for .40.

Old, worn out springs also track good sometimes... ;)

Slavex
04-15-2016, 03:10 AM
in my CZ I think I have only ever changed a recoil spring once due to it wearing out, and that was on the gun with 160,000+ rounds on it. It eventually got sluggish and I put a new 11lb in. I'd have to dig out the data book to figure out when I did it. I am pretty sure that's the only time I've done it.

Clobbersaurus
04-15-2016, 09:32 AM
Does Beretta offer a 9# spring? Strictly speaking IPSC production only allows for OEM factory parts although I know most people will scoff at this, the CRO in me had to speak up. :p


That's actually a good point. So far I have not been able to find factory 9lb recoil springs.



Old, worn out springs also track good sometimes... ;)

And that is a good point too.....:cool:

wtturn
04-15-2016, 11:26 AM
There is a big difference in factory 140 pf ammo and tailored 132 pf loads.

Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

Sal Picante
04-15-2016, 12:42 PM
That's actually a good point. So far I have not been able to find factory 9lb recoil springs.

And that is a good point too.....:cool:


It only really matters if you're shooting IPSC (USPSA allows you to swap...)

GJM
04-15-2016, 01:17 PM
This thread sucks -- just spent $200 with Jäger Products getting guide rods and springs for my G19 MOS carry optics pistols.

taadski
04-15-2016, 01:28 PM
This thread sucks -- just spent $200 with Jäger Products getting guide rods and springs for my G19 MOS carry optics pistols.

I know you're somewhat conditioned due to your experience with the CZs, but you really don't need 5 19s and the associated widgets.

Sal Picante
04-15-2016, 01:39 PM
This thread sucks -- just spent $200 with Jäger Products getting guide rods and springs for my G19 MOS carry optics pistols.

#cantbuyskillbutyoucanbuyhookers

GJM
04-15-2016, 01:39 PM
I had to get one for the 17 and 34, too.

Don't you remember when you lost your fancy, expensive, new 226 guide rod in the snow, and had to get a metal detector to find it?

jthhapkido
04-15-2016, 03:11 PM
I had to get one for the 17 and 34, too.


My experience only:

Changing out the stock RSA (recoil spring assembly) on my G34 and my G17 to a Jager stainless rod and a 13# spring both increased reliability and made for much faster followup shots. I tried 15#, 13#, 11# springs; shot factory loads, reloads (my competition reloads consistently run 133-134 PF), and defensive ammo; shot with the best grip I could manage and also the worst grip I could come up with using SHO and WHO and still retain the gun after the shot...

...for me, the 13# ISMI spring made everything (feed, lockback, etc) work no matter how much I tried to make it NOT work with poor/awkward grips, and had the best response in terms of the slide coming forward not making the muzzle dip, or the muzzle end high. YMMV.

I REALLY do not like the stock RSA for Gen 4 Glocks.

(For reference, I shoot my G34 in IDPA and USPSA.)


I haven't messed with my recoil spring on my G19, but it is an older Gen 3, back before they screwed up the recoil spring assembly.

Clobbersaurus
04-15-2016, 03:40 PM
It only really matters if you're shooting IPSC (USPSA allows you to swap...)

I'm a Canuck so I have to shoot IPSC...and follow all the production rules that go with it.

Though I suspect that aftermarket recoil springs, trigger springs, the odd trigger polish here and there are rampant in the division...but that is just baseless conjecture on my part....what do I know?

Talionis
04-15-2016, 06:44 PM
My experience only:

Changing out the stock RSA (recoil spring assembly) on my G34 and my G17 to a Jager stainless rod and a 13# spring both increased reliability and made for much faster followup shots. I tried 15#, 13#, 11# springs; shot factory loads, reloads (my competition reloads consistently run 133-134 PF), and defensive ammo; shot with the best grip I could manage and also the worst grip I could come up with using SHO and WHO and still retain the gun after the shot...

...for me, the 13# ISMI spring made everything (feed, lockback, etc) work no matter how much I tried to make it NOT work with poor/awkward grips, and had the best response in terms of the slide coming forward not making the muzzle dip, or the muzzle end high. YMMV.

I REALLY do not like the stock RSA for Gen 4 Glocks.

(For reference, I shoot my G34 in IDPA and USPSA.)


I haven't messed with my recoil spring on my G19, but it is an older Gen 3, back before they screwed up the recoil spring assembly.

Yep, when I was shooting a G34 the Jager rod with a 13lb ISMI spring was in the money both for tracking and reliability with any ammo I ran through it.

YVK
04-15-2016, 10:38 PM
I know you're somewhat conditioned due to your experience with the CZs, but you really don't need 5 19s and the associated widgets.

You can get the guy away from CZs but you can't get CZs out the guy.



On the subject, I think that the recoil spring swap is of a lost value until you get to some serious level of skill, like say good A level. I've shot my Beretta with every recoil spring possible and I doubt I would've passed a blinded test. Right now I have a Tanfo that I forgot what spring I put in and tomorrow's session will be partly dedicated to see if I could figure it out by feel. My suspicion is that I won't be able to.

Clobbersaurus
04-16-2016, 09:13 AM
On the subject, I think that the recoil spring swap is of a lost value until you get to some serious level of skill, like say good A level.

I've only shot 4 matches (one IPSC qualifier and 3 club matches). I don't have enough qualifiers to be ranked yet. The average of the matches I have shot is 69.76%. (46.69%, 73.02%, 89.96%, 69.37%) so yeah you are probably right...but challenge accepted! :cool:

Jim Watson
04-16-2016, 01:00 PM
IPSC Production is much more restricted than USPSA Production or IDPA Stock Service Pistol.

As said the only legitimate route to a weaker spring is a well worn spring. So practice a lot and maybe leave the slide locked open when idle.

If you don't handload, about all you can do is shop around for the mildest factory load. It has been a while since I chronographed any but Sellier & Belot was not very stout.

GJM
04-22-2016, 10:02 PM
Tested a Jäger Gen 4 guide rod and ISMI 13 pound recoil spring this afternoon in my Carry Optics Glock 19 MOS. Functioned perfectly, and I have yet to have a stoppage with this pistol, as I approach 5,000 rounds since new. This is subjective stuff, but I definitely felt like the 13 pound ISMI recoil spring made for a better tracking pistol than the OEM RSA, which I believe is 18 pounds. Will elaborate in my G19 MOS thread.

GJM
04-22-2016, 10:03 PM
Here:


https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?20147-USPSA-Carry-Optics-red-dot-update/page5

BES
04-23-2016, 01:01 AM
Okay so I have a question. I've really never played around with different springs. Currently I'm a low A class/ High B USPSA shooter. I use my G19 carry pistol shooting production (yes I know....). I don't reload, I just buy cheap 115gr ammo for matches and training. I have put a 13lb spring in a 17 I had last year but the recoil impulse seemed sharper and more harsh than with the stock RSA. Is that because the spring is really geared towards lower PF ammo? If I can put a different spring weight in that is just as reliable as stock but let's me track the sights faster, I'd be game. I just don't know enough about it to mess with it, and everyone I've seen run different springs is shooting soft shooting reloads.

GJM
04-23-2016, 07:13 AM
Okay so I have a question. I've really never played around with different springs. Currently I'm a low A class/ High B USPSA shooter. I use my G19 carry pistol shooting production (yes I know....). I don't reload, I just buy cheap 115gr ammo for matches and training. I have put a 13lb spring in a 17 I had last year but the recoil impulse seemed sharper and more harsh than with the stock RSA. Is that because the spring is really geared towards lower PF ammo? If I can put a different spring weight in that is just as reliable as stock but let's me track the sights faster, I'd be game. I just don't know enough about it to mess with it, and everyone I've seen run different springs is shooting soft shooting reloads.

Harsh is not the determinant, it is how fast you can shoot good shots. With the stock RSA, it is common for the muzzle to dip at the end. Do you have an iPhone with slow motion mode, so you could have a buddy slow mo video you from the side, and compare the stock vs a 13 or 15 RSA?

BCL
04-23-2016, 07:42 AM
Harsh is not the determinant, it is how fast you can shoot good shots. With the stock RSA, it is common for the muzzle to dip at the end. Do you have an iPhone with slow motion mode, so you could have a buddy slow mo video you from the side, and compare the stock vs a 13 or 15 RSA?

This. I've done comparative slow-motion video and can definitely see the lack of dip with a 13lb RSA as well as how much dip the stock RSA has.

The best way I've heard the harshness of lighter recoil springs explained is that the heavier springs spread out the recoil impulse over a longer period of time, causing it subjectively feel like less recoil. I don't know if this is the physics reason or not, but it does match up with personal experience. I much prefer the lighter RSAs for tracking purposes.

GJM
04-23-2016, 08:23 AM
BES, on your 19 for Production, I don't think it is a bad choice, with a caveat. Pure cycling, at most classifier distances, I think the 19 is better than a 17 or 34. The issue is where sight radius comes into play. If you have young stud eyes, the sight radius might not be an issue for you. What I am digging about the 19/optic, is I get all the advantages of the 19 like size and cycling, but have the optic to take care of sight radius. This is the first time that the "yet to be introduced gun" I want the most isn't a gun at all, but a pistol optic from Aimpoint. If and when that happens, I think the red dot will then become the school solution for timmies and gamers.

BES
04-23-2016, 03:17 PM
BES, on your 19 for Production, I don't think it is a bad choice, with a caveat. Pure cycling, at most classifier distances, I think the 19 is better than a 17 or 34. The issue is where sight radius comes into play. If you have young stud eyes, the sight radius might not be an issue for you. What I am digging about the 19/optic, is I get all the advantages of the 19 like size and cycling, but have the optic to take care of sight radius. This is the first time that the "yet to be introduced gun" I want the most isn't a gun at all, but a pistol optic from Aimpoint. If and when that happens, I think the red dot will then become the school solution for timmies and gamers.

Hmm, I guess I'll be ordering a guide rod and spring to check it out. My eyes are still 20/20 so I have no issues with vision right now. I also run the Proctor sights too so it's a little bit tighter sight picture. I've noticed they help immensely with the 19 for the longer shots. I agree that the RDS is the way of the future. Once I make master with the 19 I may put a RDS on it and see how that shakes out.

HopetonBrown
04-23-2016, 05:04 PM
I spoke with Taran Butler on the phone once. He recommended no lower than 15 lbs for a 19. Don't recall the reasoning. He was the first GM with a Glock.

dungdn93
08-17-2016, 04:27 AM
About guns, which you'll use a spring 1911 without going in 1911, how do you determine how many coils to cut? One at a time until it will go all the way back?

Luke
08-17-2016, 04:36 AM
I only cut springs unless they bind when the slide is pulled to the rest.

John_bud
11-09-2016, 10:36 AM
I did a search for this but came up with nothin' useful.

I compete in IPSC production division and I'm wondering if reduced power recoil springs and reduced power reloads are a huge competitive advantage in competition?

I have to say that I've never tried a pure competition production gun with all the bells and whistles, but dudes in my squads are always yakin' about recoil spring weights and their favourite reloads. I shoot factory springs and factory ammo through my Beretta.

I don't want to compromise reliability or beat up my guns but if it's a huge competitive advantage, I may consider it.

Your thoughts and comments are appreciated!

The "huge" advantage is there. But, it takes an iron grip to keep the gun aimed level and no blink reflex. The lesser report and softer recoil helps the shooter do that. The softer recoil reduces the flip UP and the softer springs keep the gun from dipping down. those things help the shooter get an acceptable sight picture sooner. May be 0.02 - 0.05s. The amount reducing with increasing shooter skill. A noob like me is helped much more than a skilled A class shooter. A pro, probably so little gain as to be immeasurable.

But, shooting a friends 124 gr 140pf then my 135gr 132pf there is about 2x the recoil with the 124. yet, he (a GM) with the 124's shoots waaaay faster than I do. But, I shoot my ammo faster than his.

But again, the pros shoot Steel Challenge with drastically reduced recoil (sub minor) loads. So even they have gains with a big enough change.

One "test" is to film (or use a chamber laser) and with different springs and the slide locked back take aim and hold firm like shooting and have someone hit the slide release. Then compare how much the muzzle dips.

rd62
11-14-2016, 10:11 PM
Has anyone tried the polymer Jager guide rods?