Arizona sheriff hopes Russian-designed rubber-bullet handgun will save lives

[Wendell]

On Tuesday, the Pinal County Sheriff’s Office said it would become the nation’s first police agency at any level to use the Osa handgun, a Russian-designed four-chamber break-action pistol that uses a laser target pointer and shoots rubber bullets. With a less lethal option, Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu said, the number of deaths will fall. The rounds have blunt edges and are not designed to pierce. In addition to Russia, the weapon is also used in Israel and Brazil. The weapon can also fire flares, pepper-gel bullets and flash-bang rounds, which do not discharge a shot but produce a deafening noise and blinding light. Despite the weapon’s intimidating look and violent purpose, Babeu said he expects it to save lives. “This is a national conversation that's going on,” Babeu said, “and it's not going well for law enforcement.”
http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ff-nonlethal-force-20151124-story.html (http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-ff-nonlethal-force-20151124-story.html)

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Guns that fire rubber bullets attained brief notoriety in Russia after an argument about the merits of philosopher Immanuel Kant in a southern Russian bar devolved into violence in October 2013. One man fired several rubber bullets at his philosophical opponent, who was injured but not killed.That's fucking gangsta as fuck.

I wonder how these stack up against bean bag rounds. I have heard that the 12 gauge bean bag rounds have been something of a resounding failure, while the 40mm ones generally work pretty well. I can't imagine this particular contraption working too well against a motivated opponent, which I suppose was never their raison d'être, but then that brings up how an officer is suppose to be able to reliably categorize the level of opposition they will receive.

[Totem Polar]

"The rubber bullets from the Osa, named for the Russian word for “wasp,” strike targets with the force of a person swinging a baseball bat or a punch from a professional boxer..."

I dunno... sounds like one could make a reverse argument that criminal use of an Osa would justify lethal force in response. The irony...


At some point, we as a society are going to have to come to grips with the choices: either more crime, more people getting shot, or more broken bones (eg, reissue saps and truncheons). Pick one of the three.

[P30]

either more crime, more people getting shot, or more broken bones (eg, reissue saps and truncheons). Pick one of the three.
I pick #4: More social justice.

[Totem Polar]

I pick #4: More social justice.

Can you define that for me?

[voodoo_man]

For the love of anything American, please do not use anything Russian as force against the citizenry.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

When I googled the gun - there was a case of a person getting hit in the temple close up and ending in vegetative state. That would make a criminal use one that could justify lethal force as a response.

[shane45]

I get that in the scenario of a bad shoot, the shootee surviving is a good thing due to the bullet being rubber, but I cant help but feel that the bad guy/shootee returning fire with real rounds shooting the officer is going to be the more frequent outcome. If there is time to decide which tool to use, it would seem the taser and the shotgun loaded with less than lethals are already appropriate options?

[BehindBlueI's]

Russian-designed

Other than vodka and...well..uh, other vodkas, I don't know I'd use "Russian designed" as a selling point for anything. Oh, those little nesting doll things. Maybe bears on unicycles. Maybe. Mostly just vodka and the nesting dolls.

What we talking about? Oh, right, rubber bullets. So, more dangerous than a Taser or existing pepperball gun, but less dangerous than a firearm. Seems to occupy a very very limited niche, even if it works as advertised.

[Chuck Haggard]

Firing something smaller and lighter than a 12 gauge bean-bag round I'll assume that this thing will be less effective.

[TiroFijo]

The 12 gauge bean bag fires a 40 gram proyectile @ 300 ft/s (older versions 400 ft/s, which proved a bit too much), and spreads to about 1 sq inch on the target.

The OSA bullet fires a 11.6 gram proyectile (phenolic rubber bullet with a metal core) @ 400 ft/s, with a 0.6" mm diameter, probably spreads on impact close to 1 sq inch. It has less power tan the beanbag, but apparently can be lethal at very close range if it impacts the head.

Another tool in the toolbox. With impact weapons there is never a magic formula for stopping people, specially if they are motivated.

I wonder if it will complicate things more for the trooper instead of magically bringing peace with no major injuries.

[El Cid]

Firing something smaller and lighter than a 12 gauge bean-bag round I'll assume that this thing will be less effective.

Indeed. Even the russkies can't get around simple physics.

[Tamara]

...an argument about the merits of philosopher Immanuel Kant in a southern Russian bar devolved into violence...

That's about the most Russian thing I've ever heard of.

[Coyotesfan97]

Just another heavy POS to carry on your belt. No thanks.

[pablo]

We had 12 gauge bean bags and found that they didn't work on people that were serious about fighting. For a while we had 37mm sponge rounds and those could actually thump someone. One of the Swat special children shot someone with a 40mm OC canister and claimed that he got his 40mm gas gun and 37mm LTL gun mixed up, S&W 276 vs LMT. All the LTL rounds went away after that. Anything less than 37mm, no thanks.

What does this do that a Taser wouldn't? With a Taser you have the potential for NMI, if you don't you get pain compliance just like the wonder gun. Anything that'll cause a clothing disconnect will likely take a lot of the steam out of a rubber projectile.

[Wendell]

What does this do that a Taser wouldn't?

Range. The Sheriff said they had a lot of cases where people were throwing rocks, and stuff like that (from a longer range).

[pablo]

Range. The Sheriff said they had a lot of cases where people were throwing rocks, and stuff like that (from a longer range).

That's make no sense. If range is a concern a pistol with 4 barrels, no rifling and one set of sights is probably a step in the wrong direction. When we first got 12 gauge bean bags the minimum recommended deployment distance was 21 feet. We were mostly shooting people in arrest situations at less than 15 feet. We eventually switched to a lower velocity power bean bag rounds, after we had an abdominal penetration, but past 30 feet or so they were ineffective. There's no free lunch, pushing small diameter LTL projectile at velocities that make ideal for long distances makes them really dangerous at distances that they will most likely be used at.

[TAZ]

One more thing to carry, train and mess up under stress. So we have gun+mags, cuffs, OC, baton, tazer, radio and now we add one more thing.

Jesus we are getting stupider by the second. This is a recipe for disaster. False sense of security on too many fronts. Cops think it's less than lethal, when in fact it can go lethal jiffy quick. Bad shot to head, cheap Chinese rubber that hardens over time... Blah blah blah. Cops think it actually stops people and let the situation devolve because they feel safer.

Hell they probably be better off going to Walmart and buying some slingshots to deal with idiot rock throwers.

I vote give them better impact weapons and get back to the ole hickory shampoo for the deserving misunderstood youts who think throwing rocks at cops is a good idea.

[45dotACP]

I'm nearly certain that some higher up going to decide to standardize on a boxing glove arrow? But no lie...boxing glove arrows would be totally awesome. A 16oz boxing glove at 250 FPS would be just the ticket to those rock throwers...a 40 yard punch in the face.

Well okay or maybe just some leather slappers....

[TGS]

I'm nearly certain that some higher up going to decide to standardize on a boxing glove arrow? But no lie...boxing glove arrows would be totally awesome. A 16oz boxing glove at 250 FPS would be just the ticket to those rock throwers...a 40 yard punch in the face.

Well okay or maybe just some leather slappers....

Fill it with lead and launch it with an air cannon and now we're talking.

[BehindBlueI's]

I'm nearly certain that some higher up going to decide to standardize on a boxing glove arrow? But no lie...boxing glove arrows would be totally awesome. A 16oz boxing glove at 250 FPS would be just the ticket to those rock throwers...a 40 yard punch in the face.


...I'd kind of like to see that.