Thoughts on violencedynamics.com class

[HopetonBrown]

This appeared in my Facebook feed today. I only recognize Kathy Jackson's name. I'm gonna assume it's a lot of stuff like ECQC/EWO/MUC? Wondering if anyone had any experience with these instructors. They have a week long block of instruction near me in the next few weeks.

http://violencedynamics.com/

[DocGKR]

The intructor bio's were...uh, interesting.


violence vi·o·lence ˈvī(ə)ləns/ noun: behavior involving physical force intended to hurt, damage, or kill someone or something. (Merriam-Webster)

Violence dynamics: the logistics of the use of force – how, where and when it happens, and its greater relevance on the spectrum of human communication and conflict behavior.

In April, 2016, we invite you to join us for six days of training. Here we explore the logic and legality of use of force, conflict communication and the mechanics of violence and defense with Rory Miller, Marc MacYoung, Kathy Jackson, Terry Trahan, and Kasey Keckeisen.

We’re excited. These are five (world-class) instructors, all with long histories facing and using force. All with years of experience transmitting that information to other people.

Tuesday, April 12 – Sunday, April 17, 2016 in Oakland, CA, USA

In one six-day intensive course, we are creating the opportunity to explore the same concepts many force operators spend years of their lives and thousands of force encounters to buy.

Don’t miss this chance.

[Mr_White]

Isn't Marc MacYoung the guy that brags about almost getting into a fight with his reflection in a window or do I have my badasses confused?

No, you are correct, I read that book of his.

[Sal Picante]

Isn't Marc MacYoung the guy that brags about almost getting into a fight with his reflection in a window or do I have my badasses confused?

Wait... what?

[Cecil Burch]

This appeared in my Facebook feed today. I only recognize Kathy Jackson's name. I'm gonna assume it's a lot of stuff like ECQC/EWO/MUC? Wondering if anyone had any experience with these instructors. They have a week long block of instruction near me in the next few weeks.

http://violencedynamics.com/


No, it won't be anything like ECQC/EWO/MUC.

[Mr_White]

Wait... what?

Not sure if you still count as a gamer since you took a Super Dave class, but let me explain in a way I KNOW a USPSA shooter will understand. You know how, when you are at a USPSA match, and hell, sometimes even when you are not at a USPSA match, and you hear a beep that sounds like a timer, even if it's the microwave, you draw and begin to engage without any conscious decision? Because conditioning, you're a dirty gamer, and bad habits get you killed in the streets and shit. You know how it is.

So, as a Timmy, same type of thing happens when you are super, mega, situationally aware (that's a term you would learn in Timmy school): you are walking down the street, hand on your bowie knife or bandanna filled with caltrops or eggshell full of iron filings or what have you, and you are paying close attention to skels and bad dudes that might be creeping around, but without looking like you are paying attention, and you see a little movement out of the corner of your eye, you just about throw down right then and there...but as you are a tiny sliver from delivering death blow after death blow, you realize it was just your reflection in a window as you pass by...that's the life of SWITCHED THE FUCK ON Timmy. Small price to pay, I am telling you.

[StrikerFire]

Rory Miller will be there. He is the real deal and well worth the time.

http://www.amazon.com/Rory-Miller/e/B002M54CNW

[Trooper224]

Those bios strike me as people who might be trying just a bit too hard to sell themselves as a cadre of bad asses.

[Ed L]

Isn't Marc MacYoung the guy that brags about almost getting into a fight with his reflection in a window or do I have my badasses confused?

Marc MacYoung also wrote in a book that he felt that a sword was a better home defense weapon than a gun for a woman. He also stated that he was in a bullwhip fight.

He was teaching a knife defense at a seminar where the motion was similar to bringing your hand to the side of the head the way you would answer a phone. This served to protect your throat from getting slashed by a knife. He was demonstrating it on stage at someone not going full speed and wound up not doing it in time the rubber knife delivered a simulated slash to his throat.

He turned to the audience as if it were part of the demonstration and asked, "What just happened?"

The response was, "Umm, you got your throat cut."

To which he responded, "Yes, but how deep?"

Basically, it was not a very good defense against a very, very difficult situation, and the instructor who advocated it could not make it work against someone not even going full speed.

I mean WTF? You can't make this stuff up.

[PNWTO]

Looks like some Rex Kwon Do shizzle, my $.02.

Is that Cornered Cat gal the one who threw some sort of shitfit online with West Coast Armory... or was that a Gabby. I think Caleb would know who I'm talking about.

[SLG]

The Animal once wrote in a magazine interview that he has two identical knives (he was selling them at the time), so that he can use one on someone, then leave it there at the scene. When questioned by police, he can whip out his spare and say "nope, mine's right here."

Where does the line start to train with these masters of the universe?

[PNWTO]

Marc MacYoung also wrote in a book that he felt that a sword was a better home defense weapon than a gun for a woman. He also stated that he was in a bullwhip fight.

He was teaching a knife defense at a seminar where the motion was similar to bringing your hand to the side of the head the way you would answer a phone. This served to protect your throat from getting slashed by a knife. He was demonstrating it on stage at someone not going full speed and wound up not doing it in time the rubber knife delivered a simulated slash to his throat.

He turned to the audience as if it were part of the demonstration and asked, "What just happened?"

The response was, "Umm, you got your throat cut."

To which he responded, "Yes, but how deep?"

Basically, it was not a very good defense against a very, very difficult situation, and the instructor who advocated it could not make it work against someone not even going full speed.

I mean WTF? You can't make this stuff up.

Wow... and he still gets paid... I'm in the wrong line of work. /s

[HopetonBrown]

Yikes.

[Lomshek]

Isn't Marc MacYoung the guy that brags about almost getting into a fight with his reflection in a window or do I have my badasses confused?

https://media.giphy.com/media/b0iAHwL6GHja0/giphy.gif

[Sal Picante]

So... where does the "drop wallet" figure into all of this?

[MPG]

Given where the classes are being held, with the exception of Chabot, you will need the skills being taught to potentially survive being in the area.

One of the group sponsors is a local MC known for hosting monthly fight club style entertainment it seems. The Yelp reviews of them are pretty humorous.

[Mr_White]

I'm sure for a small fee he'll transcribe the relevant section from the book.

I'm not even sure which book it's in or if I still have it. OMG how far we have come since the 1989 Paladin Press catalog. I spent about five minutes flipping through Cheap Shots, Ambushes, and Other Lessons, looking for the relevant passage but didn't find it. That five minutes was free. During that five minutes, I thought about how long it would take to reread all that...writing...and decided that someone would have to literally pay me about $250 to take the time to reread that thing. If someone can tell me which book it's in and the page number, or at least the chapter, I'll transcribe it for nothing if I have it. But I'm not sitting down to reread the whole book without some serious motivation.

---

FWIW, I think Kathy Jackson has a lot of good things to say. Terry Trahan is someone I vaguely know of from TPI but I don't know him well at all. Rory Miller is well regarded by a lot of people but I don't have any knowledge of him myself. I have not heard of Kasey Keckeisen.

[Peally]

So what I got from all this is this is some sort of mall ninja retard in a world full of them puking out classes to the uninformed.

Got it :D

[Peally]

Wow... and he still gets paid... I'm in the wrong line of work. /s

I keep thinking that about these stories; there's a new one every week. You can be the drop dead most unqualified dipshit and still make money doing "tactical" classes :cool:

[Totem Polar]

I have to jump in here for a sec to say that I've hosted Rory Miller for MA training a couple of times, and each time it was filled with valuable stuff. As well, his book "Meditations on Violence" is reasonably well known, and the follow up "Facing Violence" is even better, IMHO.

I've never met any of the other instructors, but Kathy is a member here, yes?


At any rate, I like Rory.

[Sal Picante]

...and decided that someone would have to literally pay me about $250 to take the time to reread that thing. If someone can tell me which book it's in and the page number, or at least the chapter, I'll transcribe it for nothing if I have it. But I'm not sitting down to reread the whole book without some serious motivation.

If I were a dick, I'd ask you to find it, but you know, man... I think I'm good... go do some dryfire or something... or finish putting together that curriculum that I'd pay $10's of dollars to take.

;)

[Hambo]

Not sure if you still count as a gamer since you took a Super Dave class, but let me explain in a way I KNOW a USPSA shooter will understand. You know how, when you are at a USPSA match, and hell, sometimes even when you are not at a USPSA match, and you hear a beep that sounds like a timer, even if it's the microwave, you draw and begin to engage without any conscious decision? Because conditioning, you're a dirty gamer, and bad habits get you killed in the streets and shit. You know how it is.



Thank you so much. I've never understood why I've shot so many microwaves.

[Al T.]

or at least the chapter,

Think it's chapter 9..........

:cool:

[Mr_White]

Think it's chapter 9..........

:cool:

Ok, that I will look at.

[Mr_White]

Thank you so much. I've never understood why I've shot so many microwaves.

Well now you know, and you know what GI Joe says about knowing. At least during the cartoon during the 80s. I don't know what GI Joe said the rest of the time.

[Peally]

Well now you know, and you know what GI Joe says about knowing. At least during the cartoon during the 80s. I don't know what GI Joe said the rest of the time.

"Holy fuck they brought guns this time!"

[Lomshek]

Think it's chapter 9..........

:cool:


Ok, that I will look at.

No no. It was Chapter 7. ;)

[LOKNLOD]

Well now you know, and you know what GI Joe says about knowing. At least during the cartoon during the 80s. I don't know what GI Joe said the rest of the time.


7110

[BehindBlueI's]

I have to jump in here for a sec to say that I've hosted Rory Miller for MA training a couple of times, and each time it was filled with valuable stuff. As well, his book "Meditations on Violence" is reasonably well known...

That reminds me, someone lent me that book and it's still on the auxiliary bookcase in the garage. After I finish what I'm reading now I ought to read that and get it back to him.

I do have a Marc the Animal book as well. I bought it in 2005, per Amazon. "A Professional's Guide to Ending Violence Quickly: How Bouncers, Bodyguards, and Other Security Professionals Handle Ugly Situations" I don't know a lot about hand to hand stuff, and knew even less back then...but it struck me as being a bit WTF.

[That Guy]

Isn't Marc MacYoung the guy that brags about almost getting into a fight with his reflection in a window or do I have my badasses confused?

Hey now - from what I've read Marky-Marc is a real character, but I can not seriously be the only one who has almost barked orders at his own reflection in the mirror? :p (And also, that one other time, that stupid mannequin the client used for marketing...)

I mean, no shit, there I was, a full time engineering student working this part time security guard night shift gig, and with all the sleep deprivation and situational awareness a guy like that is likely to muster. So I'm moseying down the Mean Hallways of Marketing Department (or some such), at oh-dark-thirty, with most of the lights off, waving the beam of my flashlight around and making what I hoped was a credible imitation of lowest bidder security services. The place is silent, nothing looks disturbed, same-same as always before. So I round a corner and suddenly there's this ugly looking guy, in this dorky overall out of all things, looking exactly like he has no business whatsoever inside an office building in the middle of the night! And as I inhale and am a split second away from barking "STOP RIGHT THERE!" to this guy, I realise that his face looks somehow... familiar.

...Oh. right...

Stupid dorky uniforms... Why'd they have to give us overalls out of all possible things...

[Wondering Beard]

Hey now - from what I've read Marky-Marc is a real character, but I can not seriously be the only one who has almost barked orders at his own reflection in the mirror? :p

I nearly attacked a portable home radiator when woken up from a nightmare and I do know one real deal instructor (an early teacher to our own late TLG) who attacked his own laundry.

[BaiHu]

.... who attacked his own laundry.

Sadly, I'm one of the few that knows how and where my "missing" socks have disappeared to and I'm not proud of it. That and Sears has blacklisted me.


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Tamara]

Kathy's one of the smartest people I know, and has her head on straight. I'd take another class from her any time.

I've read a number of Rory Miller's books and don't know enough about kung fu fightin' one way or another to provide any kind of endorsement, but I've met he and his wife, slept in their guest bedroom, and took Kathy's inaugural instructor development class with him. I'd do that again.

The other people, I don't know.

Like others in this thread, a much younger me once bought some Marc MacYoung books. I still have them, but mostly because I'm loathe to release them back into the wild.

[pax]

Hi all,

On the subject of drawing down on reflections or whatnot, I was reminded of Lawdog's story from some years back: http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/02/tragic-death-of-santa-claus.html

Honestly, if you read nothing else today, go read that link. It's worth it.

Tamara, thanks for the kind words.

PNWTO, no -- that wasn't me. I haven't had anything to do with West Coast Armory. Nothing against 'em either, just not my stomping grounds. I'm in rural Lewis County & rarely get into that part of the state.

For those who wonder, I haven't seen any elephants (or even drawn down on Santa Claus). Brief story is, I've been shooting since 1999, took my first formal training class in 2000. Followed by a bunch of others. Began working as an apprentice instructor at FAS in 2003, became a staff instructor there in 2005. Wrote a website, www.corneredcat.com . Wrote a book in 2008 and another in 2010. Worked as editor of a nationally known firearms pub from 2008-2012. Have been teaching under my own banner since 2011 or thereabouts, still on staff at FAS, have taken upwards of 1000+ hrs of ongoing professional training. Slightly longer version of the story here. (http://www.corneredcat.com/sweet-potatoes/)

To answer the original question, no -- it won't be much like ECQC. Different program, different people, different emphasis. Can't speak to what other instructors will be teaching. I do a handgun retention program that's designed for non-tough guys, non-martial artists, and clumsy ordinary people. It's pretty much what every kindergartener already knows and most adults have forgotten.

pax,

Kathy Jackson

[DocGKR]

Great post--Thank you very much for the info!

[Chance]

...I can not seriously be the only one who has almost barked orders at his own reflection in the mirror?

Definitely not. Awoke to stumbled over cats to the restroom one evening, and I almost ended up in mortal combat with clothes hanging on the back of a door. And I know of one specific example where someone had a dramatic gunfight with his own reflection.

It's a wonderful example of how one part of your brain springs into action before the other part of your brain can figure out what's going on.

[Duelist]

Hi all,

On the subject of drawing down on reflections or whatnot, I was reminded of Lawdog's story from some years back: http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/02/tragic-death-of-santa-claus.html

Honestly, if you read nothing else today, go read that link. It's worth it.

*snip*

For those who wonder, I haven't seen any elephants (or even drawn down on Santa Claus)...

*snip*


The students in the computer lab are staring at me. They are wondering why the counselor who's subbing for their regular teacher can't breathe, and is wiping his eyes.

[Tamara]

The students in the computer lab are staring at me. They are wondering why the counselor who's subbing for their regular teacher can't breathe, and is wiping his eyes.

My friend 'Dog is a master of the art of the cop story. I highly recommend his archives. Look for the one about the armadillo...

[SLG]

Hi all,

On the subject of drawing down on reflections or whatnot, I was reminded of Lawdog's story from some years back: http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2006/02/tragic-death-of-santa-claus.html

Honestly, if you read nothing else today, go read that link. It's worth it.

Tamara, thanks for the kind words.

PNWTO, no -- that wasn't me. I haven't had anything to do with West Coast Armory. Nothing against 'em either, just not my stomping grounds. I'm in rural Lewis County & rarely get into that part of the state.

For those who wonder, I haven't seen any elephants (or even drawn down on Santa Claus). Brief story is, I've been shooting since 1999, took my first formal training class in 2000. Followed by a bunch of others. Began working as an apprentice instructor at FAS in 2003, became a staff instructor there in 2005. Wrote a website, www.corneredcat.com . Wrote a book in 2008 and another in 2010. Worked as editor of a nationally known firearms pub from 2008-2012. Have been teaching under my own banner since 2011 or thereabouts, still on staff at FAS, have taken upwards of 1000+ hrs of ongoing professional training. Slightly longer version of the story here. (http://www.corneredcat.com/sweet-potatoes/)

To answer the original question, no -- it won't be much like ECQC. Different program, different people, different emphasis. Can't speak to what other instructors will be teaching. I do a handgun retention program that's designed for non-tough guys, non-martial artists, and clumsy ordinary people. It's pretty much what every kindergartener already knows and most adults have forgotten.

pax,

Kathy Jackson

PAX,

I've been in a bad mood for a bit (nothing to do with you), but I'm not actually looking for a fight, especially with people so well versed in using force. P-F is not my forum, and I have no stake in it whatsoever. However, my best friend created this place, along with other friends, and I do view it as a "virtual clubhouse" where I get to hang out with people I don't get to see very often. Along those lines, many of us are pretty big on performance, especially performance based on real world needs. In that vein, I do have some thoughts and questions.

The website talks about "world class" instructors who all have years of experience "...facing and using force." This does not seem to be the case.

What are your qualifications to teach weapons retention?

I've heard of 3 of the other instructors, but really only know anything about The Animal. Everything I know about him is based on things he said or wrote, nothing more. He does not inspire confidence in me in anyway at all, and frankly, I think prospective students would have to be a bit mad to turn to him for training.

As an instructor, you are who you associate with. Just like non-instructors.:-)

Along those lines, I don't think that FAS instructor creds will get you very far here. Mr. Hayes came on here a while ago, and didn't quite receive the welcome he might have liked. Something to do with his lack of legal understanding, iirc.

As someone who has been to a lot of classes, and paid for a fair number of them myself, I always want to make sure I'm getting my time and money's worth. With the glut of instructors out there now, it gets harder and harder to know what you are getting.

[Tamara]

Along those lines, I don't think that FAS instructor creds will get you very far here. Mr. Hayes came on here a while ago, and didn't quite receive the welcome he might have liked. Something to do with his lack of legal understanding, iirc.

He was a member since '11 but hasn't been back since he got roughly handled in that AIWB thread last summer.

Of course, the firearms training industry is full of people who react poorly to criticism. :(

[SLG]

He was a member since '11 but hasn't been back since he got roughly handled in that AIWB thread last summer.

Of course, the firearms training industry is full of people who react poorly to criticism. :(

I think most of us react poorly to criticism. Sometimes I handle it well, other times not so much. Human, and all.

I do like to see people in this industry teach from a base of experience though. It's what separates us from the academic world.

[Odin Bravo One]

I think most of us react poorly to criticism. Sometimes I handle it well, other times not so much. Human, and all.

I do like to see people in this industry teach from a base of experience though. It's what separates us from the academic world.

This is precisely why I stopped doing open enrollment training: people can't handle critiques, let alone criticism. And the lack of experience from many instructors lead to classes full of students doing just plain dumb shit, a lot of times tactics read out of a magazine or developed from a video game.

And it really upsets me when someone doesn't like me. As most of my shooting buddies know.

[SLG]

This is precisely why I stopped doing open enrollment training: people can't handle critiques, let alone criticism. And the lack of experience from many instructors lead to classes full of students doing just plain dumb shit, a lot of times tactics read out of a magazine or developed from a video game.

And it really upsets me when someone doesn't like me. As most of my shooting buddies know.

This is one of the reasons why Todd and I got along so well. He was very good at taking criticism, and he was critical as well. Hard to improve yourself when you don't have critical people around you.

[GRV]

This is one of the reasons why Todd and I got along so well. He was very good at taking criticism, and he was critical as well. Hard to improve yourself when you don't have critical people around you.

Worth repeating.

A golden trait. Makes me that much more upset I never met him.

[Tamara]

This is one of the reasons why Todd and I got along so well. He was very good at taking criticism, and he was critical as well. Hard to improve yourself when you don't have critical people around you.

I liked this and unliked it so I could like it again. Which I think is a first for me on this forum. ;)

[pax]

SLG,

Thanks for the heads up about the bad mood. Grief will do that to a person, and I'll keep it in mind.


The website talks about "world class" instructors who all have years of experience "...facing and using force." This does not seem to be the case.

Yeah, I'm definitely the red-headed stepchild there. You got me. :)

For the other instructors, you can find Rory Miller's bio here (www.chirontraining.com/Site/Bio.html). His law enforcement (corrections) background gave him upwards of 200+ documented uses of force -- not a particularly high or unusual number for an officer who worked bookings in a busy system, but nothing to sneeze at either.

Kasey Keckeisen is a seasoned LEO who works actively in an unnamed department in the upper midwest. He's a SWAT team leader and SWAT training coordinator. I cannot speak to his uses of force, though I understand he has more than a few documented, and am looking forward to meeting him for the first time this week.

Terry Trahan grew up as a street kid. Lots of uses of force in that environment, lots more experience learning how not to get into trouble in the first place.

Marc's bio is well known. Same basic background as Terry: street rat makes good. He brings with him all the stupid liabilities that any macho idiot child from that background would bring. (And I'm damned glad that I didn't start writing or putting my stuff out in public when I was in my 20s, and I had a plain vanilla suburban upbringing without the testosterone poisoning these guys had to deal with. There's enough embarrassing crap I wrote ten or twelve years ago floating around, without adding 'macho 20 yr old' writing into that mix!)

And yes, I understand what you're saying about the company one keeps. Nevertheless, here we are.


What are your qualifications to teach weapons retention?

Here's the link again: here (http://www.corneredcat.com/sweet-potatoes/). You will find my HR creds about halfway down that page.


Along those lines, I don't think that FAS instructor creds will get you very far here. Mr. Hayes came on here a while ago, and didn't quite receive the welcome he might have liked. Something to do with his lack of legal understanding, iirc.

Yeah, I understand that people we're close to and respect in person sometimes get crosswise with other people we generally like and respect online. That says nothing about anyone's teaching or shooting credentials in real life -- as I think the founding of this forum would attest. Marty does have a legal degree, which puts his legal knowledge significantly above many other online arguers, but by no means does that make him infallible. Nor does it mean he necessarily agrees with all other people who have legal degrees (I guess if all the lawyers agreed on everything, the rest of us would really be screwed!). He and Massad Ayoob work together quite a bit and are simpatico, which I understand automatically puts him crosswise with some folks just because Ayoob. Known by the company one keeps, I guess. Btw, I also hold instr creds from MAG, and have an instr dev paper from Rangemaster, and a couple from the Farnams, and a few other things here & there.

Regardless of who hates who in this biz, or who has offended whom online, I explained my background for those who might not know it and that was all.


As someone who has been to a lot of classes, and paid for a fair number of them myself, I always want to make sure I'm getting my time and money's worth. With the glut of instructors out there now, it gets harder and harder to know what you are getting.

Sure -- though I don't expect to see you at any of the VioDy classes this week, so the extra grilling puzzles me. Still, if you honestly want to know about other people's bios, feel free to reach out to them and ask.

pax,

Kathy

[SLG]

PAX,

Fair enough, thanks for the replies.

My final comment was more a general one, and I'm sure there are people who are looking at that class and might like to know some of this stuff. It's stuff I want to know when I'm looking at a class or instructor, and that's all I meant by that.

I've trained with Ayoob, though it was a long time ago. I correspond with John Farnam every few months. I don't do most of the stuff they teach, but I don't think less of them for it, and I don't worry too much about who is crosswise of who when it comes to that kind of stuff. Neither of them have come on here and said silly things. My only interaction with Mr. Hayes was here, and so you can imagine how that might color my thoughts about him. Nonetheless, I don't hate people I disagree with, and if I met Mr. Hayes in person, I might find points of common ground.

You didn't ask about any of that, but I thought it worth clarifying.

[redbone]

Im a little late, but these instructors are a bit out there. Besides 'animal', Terry Trahan also has a strange history. Prolific Internet forum poster/blogger, active in martial arts/knives. He had/has cancer and last year tried to kill himself with an overdose. It didn't work, but the rumor spread that he was dead (corroborated by his family). He let the Internet think he was dead for about 8 or 9 months before surfacing.

Do a search on 'Terry Trahan Dead' and you'll see threads on a lot of forums mourning his loss.

(I take it he was going through some rough things, but wow.)

It's been said before, but the knife community attracts misfits and weirdos. (Probably because there's little pressure testing to see if the techniques really work.).

[LittleLebowski]

It's been said before, but the knife community attracts misfits and weirdos. (Probably because there's little pressure testing to see if the techniques really work.).

Fortunately we have SouthNarc.

[11B10]

SLG,

Thanks for the heads up about the bad mood. Grief will do that to a person, and I'll keep it in mind.



Yeah, I'm definitely the red-headed stepchild there. You got me. :)

For the other instructors, you can find Rory Miller's bio here (www.chirontraining.com/Site/Bio.html). His law enforcement (corrections) background gave him upwards of 200+ documented uses of force -- not a particularly high or unusual number for an officer who worked bookings in a busy system, but nothing to sneeze at either.

Kasey Keckeisen is a seasoned LEO who works actively in an unnamed department in the upper midwest. He's a SWAT team leader and SWAT training coordinator. I cannot speak to his uses of force, though I understand he has more than a few documented, and am looking forward to meeting him for the first time this week.

Terry Trahan grew up as a street kid. Lots of uses of force in that environment, lots more experience learning how not to get into trouble in the first place.

Marc's bio is well known. Same basic background as Terry: street rat makes good. He brings with him all the stupid liabilities that any macho idiot child from that background would bring. (And I'm damned glad that I didn't start writing or putting my stuff out in public when I was in my 20s, and I had a plain vanilla suburban upbringing without the testosterone poisoning these guys had to deal with. There's enough embarrassing crap I wrote ten or twelve years ago floating around, without adding 'macho 20 yr old' writing into that mix!)

And yes, I understand what you're saying about the company one keeps. Nevertheless, here we are.



Here's the link again: here (http://www.corneredcat.com/sweet-potatoes/). You will find my HR creds about halfway down that page.



Yeah, I understand that people we're close to and respect in person sometimes get crosswise with other people we generally like and respect online. That says nothing about anyone's teaching or shooting credentials in real life -- as I think the founding of this forum would attest. Marty does have a legal degree, which puts his legal knowledge significantly above many other online arguers, but by no means does that make him infallible. Nor does it mean he necessarily agrees with all other people who have legal degrees (I guess if all the lawyers agreed on everything, the rest of us would really be screwed!). He and Massad Ayoob work together quite a bit and are simpatico, which I understand automatically puts him crosswise with some folks just because Ayoob. Known by the company one keeps, I guess. Btw, I also hold instr creds from MAG, and have an instr dev paper from Rangemaster, and a couple from the Farnams, and a few other things here & there.

Regardless of who hates who in this biz, or who has offended whom online, I explained my background for those who might not know it and that was all.



Sure -- though I don't expect to see you at any of the VioDy classes this week, so the extra grilling puzzles me. Still, if you honestly want to know about other people's bios, feel free to reach out to them and ask.

pax,

Kathy

OK, I'm gonna stick my neck out here. First, everyone - PLEASE know that since I began reading p-f, I've learned much on many subjects, from many bona fide SME's and literal icons of self-defense and firearms. I cannot believe how the people here, especially considering who they are and what they've accomplished, are so utterly selfLESS, patient and sharing. It is THE best resource for anyone desiring to improve any aspect of their equipment, mindset, skillset. I am totally sincere when I say I am very grateful to all here. Now, every now and then, I catch a bit of a dig at Massad Ayoob - the latest one I've seen here ^^^. Always very subtle - but there, nonetheless. Everything I read elsewhere is 100% positive. What am I missing?

[Odin Bravo One]

200+ documented uses of force for a guy is a shitty and slow week in our office.....

Just to keep things in perspective on what constitutes experience, and what is being added to credentials.

Cool thing is, I was an asshole long before anyone paid me. PF.com doesn't pay me to be one either. I just like it.

And have the 16,000 + documented uses of force to laugh at those with 200 (+). Rookie.

Some mine have even made it to the big screen.

[Tamara]

Now, every now and then, I catch a bit of a dig at Massad Ayoob - the latest one I've seen here ^^^.

I'm not clear. You think Kathy was making a dig at Mas?

BTW, Mas is a member here. Posts every now and again. Sometimes people agree with him and other times heads butt. Nature of things, I guess.

[rob_s]

every now and then, I catch a bit of a dig at Massad Ayoob - the latest one I've seen here ^^^. Always very subtle - but there, nonetheless. Everything I read elsewhere is 100% positive. What am I missing?

You're missing history and context. The training industry wasn't always what it is today. There was a time when there wasn't a war on, and if you wanted to know how to shoot people you went to cops to learn. This led to more than a few instructors who wanted to gain some cred who became reserve cops, or part-time cops, or became cops in towns with populations (and crime rates) smaller than most state colleges, etc. As cheesy as some of that may sound now, it actually wasn't that odd at the time. Not a lot of people that are around today are old enough, or well-read enough, or have the proper version of history to understand most of that, so you're certainly not in the minority.

So, in modern times, Ayoob gets a lot of grief from some folks because he lacks any documented uses of force in a world where some folks can measure theirs in hundreds or thousands.

Whether those numbers matter to you, or whether the context of those numbers matter to you, when selecting an instructor or mentor is a personal decision.

The other, far less common today, dig at Ayoob was that back in the day you were either a Weaver guy or an Isosceles guy: neither of which back then looked like what they look like today. Cooper, Gunsite, etc. were the Weaver camp, and Ayoob and some other roaming gnomes were in the other camp. 1911 vs. Glock, Ford vs. Chevy, 9mm vs. 45, AR vs. AK, Nikon vs. Cannon, etc. Again, not many people old enough to remember that, but it's probably where some of the anti-Ayoob sentiment began as he was the upstart against the established Weaver/Gunsite/Cooper school of thought.

[11B10]

I'm not clear. You think Kathy was making a dig at Mas?

BTW, Mas is a member here. Posts every now and again. Sometimes people agree with him and other times heads butt. Nature of things, I guess.

Tam - I know Mas is a member here - I've read his posts. I said this stuff was subtle - and it is. If you reread Kathy's post - the part about "getting crosswise with some folks because Ayoob," perhaps you see what I mean? Further, rob_s' post above ("the anti-Ayoob sentiment," etc.) helps me - you?

[11B10]

You're missing history and context. The training industry wasn't always what it is today. There was a time when there wasn't a war on, and if you wanted to know how to shoot people you went to cops to learn. This led to more than a few instructors who wanted to gain some cred who became reserve cops, or part-time cops, or became cops in towns with populations (and crime rates) smaller than most state colleges, etc. As cheesy as some of that may sound now, it actually wasn't that odd at the time. Not a lot of people that are around today are old enough, or well-read enough, or have the proper version of history to understand most of that, so you're certainly not in the minority.

So, in modern times, Ayoob gets a lot of grief from some folks because he lacks any documented uses of force in a world where some folks can measure theirs in hundreds or thousands.

Whether those numbers matter to you, or whether the context of those numbers matter to you, when selecting an instructor or mentor is a personal decision.

The other, far less common today, dig at Ayoob was that back in the day you were either a Weaver guy or an Isosceles guy: neither of which back then looked like what they look like today. Cooper, Gunsite, etc. were the Weaver camp, and Ayoob and some other roaming gnomes were in the other camp. 1911 vs. Glock, Ford vs. Chevy, 9mm vs. 45, AR vs. AK, Nikon vs. Cannon, etc. Again, not many people old enough to remember that, but it's probably where some of the anti-Ayoob sentiment began as he was the upstart against the established Weaver/Gunsite/Cooper school of thought.


rob - thanks so much for filling in the gaps for me. I knew I wasn't imagining this.

[Odin Bravo One]

This is also why the most qualified to teach shit rarely do.

Those who think they are qualified to teach, rarely are. Those who seek it out are usually even less so.

And it takes an educated and experienced person to realize that you have a good source of information.

Sadly it takes even more than that to realize you don't. And there is more crap out there getting spewed that makes doing any training for anyone make me want to lose my lunch. Probably why I don't train people anymore. Also. Because I'm an asshole. And I don't have to.

[Lomshek]

This is also why the most qualified to teach shit rarely do.

Those who think they are qualified to teach, rarely are. Those who seek it out are usually even less so.

And it takes an educated and experienced person to realize that you have a good source of information.

Sadly it takes even more than that to realize you don't. And there is more crap out there getting spewed that makes doing any training for anyone make me want to lose my lunch. Probably why I don't train people anymore. Also. Because I'm an asshole. And I don't have to.

Man is that ever true!

Except the last part. I'm sure you're a swell fellow!

[David S.]

As an instructor, you are who you associate with. Just like non-instructors.:-)

FWIW, I associate Kathy Jackson with John Murphy (http://www.fpftraining.com/), who I'm guessing you know. I don't know if it gives her any more cred, but I seem to recall she has been a fairly regular guest instructor of his for the last few years.

[11B10]

FWIW, I associate Kathy Jackson with John Murphy (http://www.fpftraining.com/), who I'm guessing you know. I don't know if it gives her any more cred, but I seem to recall she has been a fairly regular guest instructor of his for the last few years.


I like the post - LOVE the avatar!

[David S.]

I like the post - LOVE the avatar!

Unfortunately, it's all too appropriate. ;)

[cheshire_cat]

I'm an asshole.
But are you an SME at being an asshole? If so, do you have open enrollment courses we can sign up for?

[Odin Bravo One]

Yes.

No.

Go fuck yourself.

[JR1572]

You're missing history and context. The training industry wasn't always what it is today. There was a time when there wasn't a war on, and if you wanted to know how to shoot people you went to cops to learn. This led to more than a few instructors who wanted to gain some cred who became reserve cops, or part-time cops, or became cops in towns with populations (and crime rates) smaller than most state colleges, etc. As cheesy as some of that may sound now, it actually wasn't that odd at the time. Not a lot of people that are around today are old enough, or well-read enough, or have the proper version of history to understand most of that, so you're certainly not in the minority.

So, in modern times, Ayoob gets a lot of grief from some folks because he lacks any documented uses of force in a world where some folks can measure theirs in hundreds or thousands.

Whether those numbers matter to you, or whether the context of those numbers matter to you, when selecting an instructor or mentor is a personal decision.

The other, far less common today, dig at Ayoob was that back in the day you were either a Weaver guy or an Isosceles guy: neither of which back then looked like what they look like today. Cooper, Gunsite, etc. were the Weaver camp, and Ayoob and some other roaming gnomes were in the other camp. 1911 vs. Glock, Ford vs. Chevy, 9mm vs. 45, AR vs. AK, Nikon vs. Cannon, etc. Again, not many people old enough to remember that, but it's probably where some of the anti-Ayoob sentiment began as he was the upstart against the established Weaver/Gunsite/Cooper school of thought.

They're still career reserve cops that omit the fact that they're reserve cops and are full time firearm trainers on forums and social media.

In south Louisiana we have quite a few of them.

JR1572

[SLG]

They're still career reserve cops that omit the fact that they're reserve cops and are full time firearm trainers on forums and social media.

In south Louisiana we have quite a few of them.

JR1572

I'm a full time LEO and a part time trainer. Does that qualify as good, bad or ugly?

The training industry has no standards. I like to take classes from people who have experience doing, professionally if possible, what they are teaching. Ultimately everyone will draw that line in a different place. There are some really good instructors out there with little to no experience. If they are teaching good stuff, that is a better combination than lots of experience but a poor teacher. I teach everything from basic firearms to CQB at work, and everything in between. I have experience with all of it, but I would say that my experience is modest compared to the people I look to. When I teach privately, I stick to the gun stuff, since I think though there are very few good CQB instructors out there, the few that I think are good are better than I am.

I heard something really funny the other day. It was along the lines of "If you haven't shot someone with a carbine, you shouldn't be teaching carbine." I got this line third hand, so I won't attribute it in case it is wrong. The funny thing is, the guy who said this was taught how to shoot by guys who had never heard a shot fired in anger, let alone shot someone with a carbine.

Like I said, everyone draws their personal line somewhere.

[Tamara]

I heard something really funny the other day. It was along the lines of "If you haven't shot someone with a carbine, you shouldn't be teaching carbine." I got this line third hand, so I won't attribute it in case it is wrong. The funny thing is, the guy who said this was taught how to shoot by guys who had never heard a shot fired in anger, let alone shot someone with a carbine.

Given the venue, I'll point out that I learned more about shooting a pistol from a nerdy Jewish law school grad who'd never heard a shot fired in anger than I have from any other single person. :)

I miss him. :(

[JR1572]

I'm a full time LEO and a part time trainer. Does that qualify as good, bad or ugly?

The training industry has no standards. I like to take classes from people who have experience doing, professionally if possible, what they are teaching. Ultimately everyone will draw that line in a different place. There are some really good instructors out there with little to no experience. If they are teaching good stuff, that is a better combination than lots of experience but a poor teacher. I teach everything from basic firearms to CQB at work, and everything in between. I have experience with all of it, but I would say that my experience is modest compared to the people I look to. When I teach privately, I stick to the gun stuff, since I think though there are very few good CQB instructors out there, the few that I think are good are better than I am.

I heard something really funny the other day. It was along the lines of "If you haven't shot someone with a carbine, you shouldn't be teaching carbine." I got this line third hand, so I won't attribute it in case it is wrong. The funny thing is, the guy who said this was taught how to shoot by guys who had never heard a shot fired in anger, let alone shot someone with a carbine.

Like I said, everyone draws their personal line somewhere.

I have a problem with someone pretending to be the police just to be better able to market themselves as a firearm trainer on the weekend.

I don't know how it is at whatever agency you work at or worked at, but reserves only have to work 40 hours a month. When I see a known reserve talk about having 15 years of LE experience and I know said reserve has never been a full time cop, I have an issue with it.

Since there is no standardization in the industry, it is a breeding ground for frauds and liars. The most common way this is done is by omission.

No, I'm not a knuckle dragger that believes the person teaching class has to have "kills", but I also don't want to take a class about fighting with a gun around a vehicle from a guy that works at a bank 3 days a week, pretends to be the police 2 days a week, and then plays a trainer 1 day a week.

JR1572

[SLG]

I have a problem with someone pretending to be the police just to be better able to market themselves as a firearm trainer on the weekend.

I don't know how it is at whatever agency you work at or worked at, but reserves only have to work 40 hours a month. When I see a known reserve talk about having 15 years of LE experience and I know said reserve has never been a full time cop, I have an issue with it.

Since there is no standardization in the industry, it is a breeding ground for frauds and liars. The most common way this is done is by omission.

No, I'm not a knuckle dragger that believes the person teaching class has to have "kills", but I also don't want to take a class about fighting with a gun around a vehicle from a guy that works at a bank 3 days a week, pretends to be the police 2 days a week, and then plays a trainer 1 day a week.

JR1572

Totally agree with you, and wasn't trying to be argumentative at all, sorry if it came off that way.

We don't have reserves, fwiw.

[JR1572]

Totally agree with you, and wasn't trying to be argumentative at all, sorry if it came off that way.

We don't have reserves, fwiw.

It's all good. I'm glad we're on the same page.

JR1572

[LSP972]

No, I'm not a knuckle dragger that believes the person teaching class has to have "kills", but I also don't want to take a class about fighting with a gun around a vehicle from a guy that works at a bank 3 days a week, pretends to be the police 2 days a week, and then plays a trainer 1 day a week.

JR1572

You knuckle-dragger, you...:cool:

Let's see… how many names can we name????;)

.

[JR1572]

You knuckle-dragger, you...:cool:

Let's see… how many names can we name????;)

.

There are quite a few. We both know who they are.

How's everything going at the lab?

JR1572

[Maple Syrup Actual]

I'm not sure if this counts but I bet that most knife forums include guys who probably could show hundreds if not thousands of videotaped attempts to use the force.

Not sure what that leaves them qualified for but I bet it's true, regardless.

[TGS]

I'm a full time LEO and a part time trainer. Does that qualify as good, bad or ugly?

The training industry has no standards. I like to take classes from people who have experience doing, professionally if possible, what they are teaching. Ultimately everyone will draw that line in a different place. There are some really good instructors out there with little to no experience. If they are teaching good stuff, that is a better combination than lots of experience but a poor teacher. I teach everything from basic firearms to CQB at work, and everything in between. I have experience with all of it, but I would say that my experience is modest compared to the people I look to. When I teach privately, I stick to the gun stuff, since I think though there are very few good CQB instructors out there, the few that I think are good are better than I am.

I heard something really funny the other day. It was along the lines of "If you haven't shot someone with a carbine, you shouldn't be teaching carbine." I got this line third hand, so I won't attribute it in case it is wrong. The funny thing is, the guy who said this was taught how to shoot by guys who had never heard a shot fired in anger, let alone shot someone with a carbine.

Like I said, everyone draws their personal line somewhere.

I think it also deserves consideration as to the level that the student is aspiring to.

If we're talking Suzy McSoccormom and Joe Accountant looking to learn the basics on CCW, then I don't see a problem with the material being taught by someone with no experience in high speed gunfights, use of force, or threat management, provided the instructor is able to competently deliver the basics.

A dude responsible for personnel recovery of US citizens in a foreign country with a failed government and unknown militia checkpoint interdictions is obviously going to require a much, much more experienced person teaching them how to not get ass-raped in a third world prison if they happen to defend themselves with tenuous legal standing to have guns in the first place.

Somewhere in the middle is where most CCW, self-defense, or shooting enthusiasts will fall. My general outlook is to mix and match experiences depending on what your specific training goal is. So, you might not be the ideal person to teach CQB to a person of your level.......but I bet you're acceptable to teach CQB to a lot of cops and citizens.

[Odin Bravo One]

A lot of cops and citizens have no business in CQB, regardless who trained them over the weekend.

[Totem Polar]

^^^on the other hand, it's always conceivable that a cop or citizen could end up with CQB thrust upon them in a situation not of their own volition, so *somebody* should be training them over *some* weekend, or they'll be flying blind. JMO.

I don't necessarily need the tip of the spear instructing me, I just need "good."

[TGS]

^^^on the other hand, it's always conceivable that a cop or citizen could end up with CQB thrust upon them in a situation not of their own volition, so *somebody* should be training them over *some* weekend, or they'll be flying blind. JMO.

I don't necessarily need the tip of the spear instructing me, I just need "good."

Agreed 100%. Concise and well put.

[Odin Bravo One]

You don't end up "Thrust" into CQB. It is a deliberate, direct action TTP used to rid the inside of defended structures of enemy combantants.

A civilian searching a home or building with a firearm is not CQB, it is searching a structure. A cop responding to an active shooter is not CQB, it is an active shooter situation.

Some techniques used in CQB may be useful in other situations, but that does not make the situation turn into CQB.

And if you are doing CQB, you want the tip of the spear instructing you if you want to live.

Words have meanings, and one thing doesn't become another because you want it to be.

[SLG]

You don't end up "Thrust" into CQB. It is a deliberate, direct action TTP used to rid the inside of defended structures of enemy combantants.

A civilian searching a home or building with a firearm is not CQB, it is searching a structure. A cop responding to an active shooter is not CQB, it is an active shooter situation.

Some techniques used in CQB may be useful in other situations, but that does not make the situation turn into CQB.

And if you are doing CQB, you want the tip of the spear instructing you if you want to live.

Words have meanings, and one thing doesn't become another because you want it to be.

These are points I have a hard time getting some professionals to understand. The only times I have done CQB, I had between 4 and 30 of my buddies with me. Not a casual Sat. afternoon at the mall... And ALL of my instructors in this area were current and former tip of the spear.

Now individual tactics for searching structures...I've probably done way more of that then my CQB instructors have, and I really enjoy teaching that. Insights used to do a good job of teaching it, and from talking to Southnarc, I'm sure he does too. I hope to go through his AMIS in the not too distant future.

[Odin Bravo One]

While I would do some swaylay shit if moving inside by myself.

[Totem Polar]

You don't end up "Thrust" into CQB. It is a deliberate, direct action TTP used to rid the inside of defended structures of enemy combantants.

Words have meanings, and one thing doesn't become another because you want it to be.

So we are talking about completely separate situations and goals. Noted. And I don't want anything. Besides maybe some knowledge that I can apply in the future.

[Odin Bravo One]

Correct. CQB/CQC are drastically misused terms.

I just want what you want.

[Totem Polar]

Heard and understood.

[Tamara]

DSATJIMLR...

"Do Something About This Jackass In My Living Room" makes such an awkward acronym, though. :eek:

[LSP972]

There are quite a few. We both know who they are.

How's everything going at the lab?

JR1572

Just peachy.

.

[Drang]

Correct. CQB/CQC are drastically misused terms.

I just want what you want.

I'd bitch about semantic arguments, but people tend to take them the wrong way...
...do we need to wait for Pfestivus before looking into that P-FGlossary/P-FWiki thing again?

[Totem Polar]

DSATJIMLR...

"Do Something About This Jackass In My Living Room" makes such an awkward acronym, though. :eek:

SYAOOMC

"Shag your ass out of my crib."
-Jeff Rice to Rick Masters in To Live and Die in LA, 1985

An entertaining film.