Are Shotguns Really Old and Busted?

[TheRoland]

So, I've been following the NY Long Gun Thread, (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19699-NY-Long-gun-choice) and it took several pages for someone to mention a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500/590 as an option for OP. Even once mentioned, things like bolt-action rifles, lever guns, exotic AR pump-actions rifles all came up a lot more. GJM did mention Benelli M1/M2s pretty quickly, to be fair, but not much came of that mention.

Shotguns seems like they're going out of style for LEO applications, but for homeowners, especially in the coastal blue states, are they really so far down this list? Why? Is a lever gun really more practical or effective than a pump-action shotgun? If they're still relevant at all, what's the state-of-the-art for shotguns? Are pumps totally old news?

[Sherman A. House DDS]

I don't think they are. I used one for work, and still use one today. I think the push for civvies to run M4 style carbines, is the thinking that, "If the local PD and the USA are using them, then I need one too!" Which isn't necessarily untrue, but it also shouldn't supplant the shotgun for the civilian self defense mission. I wrote an article about this, just a week ago.

http://revolverscience.com/2016/03/16/here-comes-the-boom/


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[spinmove_]

Honestly, the shotgun simply isn't what the cool kids are toting these days. The cool kids all have M4gerys with M-Lok fore ends and red dots or decked out AKs. Even cooler kids have Tavors.

A simple Mossberg 500 with a sling and a light is quite a lot of kick ass for not a lot of dough. I'd say for a home defense setup that you don't want to spend a ton of money on that's easy and cost effective to replace its really hard to beat. Feed it the right ammo and its kinda scary how precise you can be with one.

[BehindBlueI's]

Probably. Cost efficient and effective is no match for glossy color magazine covers and tacticoolness. Of course, I still think revolvers work just fine, so what the hell do I know?

[Dagga Boy]

I am penning a couple of shotgun articles right now. In California, the 870 was my primary long gun.

[Peally]

Simply a niche weapon (I think of them more like grenade launchers than AR-15 wannabes; lots of flavors of ammo to choose from).

[BillSWPA]

Tom Givens made the point elsewhere that he had no instances in his database about a shotgun ever having to be reloaded in a self-defense situation due to its stopping power advantage. That piece of information, combined with the testing done by another individual I respect showing how much faster a semiauto shotgun is than a pump shotgun, plus the Beretta 1301 thread here, have me potentially adding a 1301 Tactical to my wish list.

Many years ago I had the chance to pick up a police trade-in 870 at a gun show for about $150. One of those is one of the few guns I regret passing on. That would have been a very inexpensive, easily upgradable entry into defensive shotguns. Check out the functions, replace the stocks with something synthetic, extend the magazine tube, and add high visibility sights and a light, and cost still wouldn't be too bad.

Having said that, having seen video of what M855 (SS109) ball 5.56 ammo does to a gelatin block convinces me that even this choice in ammo out of an AR platform would ruin someone's day. Particularly with better ammo, decent stopping power with excellent accuracy and low recoil and a large magazine capacity is quite appealing. Adding minimized penetration of interior walls as compared to almost any other defensive choice, and it looks line a winning choice.

Part of what might make me choose a rifle over a shotgun - or vice versa - is where it will be used and under what circumstances. Inside a house, where it can be kept loaded and locked up, where distances will be short, and where anything that needs to be stopped needs to be stopped with particular decisiveness, a shotgun seems ideal. If the gun is kept in a vehicle, the fact that a rifle can be kept unloaded with a readily available box magazine (in a sufficiently separate location so that the gun is considered legally unloaded), and then loaded quickly when needed, might make even a bolt action rifle attractive over a shotgun.

[45dotACP]

I'd pick a pump gun before a lever action or bolt action any day of the week...5 rounds of a manually operated .223 vs 5 rounds of a manually operated 12 gauge is a no contest in my mind.

If I only needed two guns ever they'd be a 12 gauge shotgun and a .44 revolver simply because the enormity of roles you can fill with both firearms. Everything from defensive arm, to sporting arm to hunting arm.

Fortunately, I don't have to limit myself to two guns ever. That'd be just torture... :D

[SeriousStudent]

Simply a niche weapon (I think of them more like grenade launchers than AR-15 wannabes; lots of flavors of ammo to choose from).

Very much this, in my humble opinion. I've always treated them like mortars.

Heavy, requiring manual operation with a single round, but devastating if employed correctly.

And I would appreciate it if I could find a couple of young Lance Coolie's to hump the ammo for me.

[HCM]

For LEO's one of the big draws for the M4 is the cycle of operation is similar to the semi auto pistol they are most familiar with. We have more 14" 870's than M4's but maybe 1/3 of our officers can run them worth a damn.

IME Shotguns also tend to favor "full size operators" as Nyeti says. Not that smaller shooters cant run them but physics is physics and mass are an advantage with full power loads.

One reason I don't shoot shotgun more is outside of work, several of the local ranges prohibit shooting slugs or buck shot because they tear up the range and/or backers.

[Lester Polfus]

I am penning a couple of shotgun articles right now. In California, the 870 was my primary long gun.

Would I have to buy a gun magazine to read those. I don't usually do that but I could make an exception.

[Lester Polfus]

The only long gun I own that is dedicated solely to defensive use is a shotgun.

To make things worse I practice reloads from a butt cuff using my strong side hand.

If y'all want to kick me out I will leave quietly.

[rob_s]

No matter how much people, try to pretend that their purchases are 100% about doing ninja shit, in the back of their mind, deep down, real life wants and needs take over.

Ignoring areas where there are legal restrictions beyond the federal level, the AR is sexier, more fun to shoot for most people, offers more opportunities to shoot, and offers far more options for fiddle-fart.

Even in restricted states, depending on the restrictions, things like pistol-caliber carbines, or neutered ARs are still a better overall choice for most people.

Get too restricted, into areas where semi-auto is totally out of the question, and things start to even out. But even still the shotgun is intimidating for most new(er) shooters, and not fun to shoot even for many experienced people.

If the idea is STRICTLY people shooting inside the home, no a out of "fun" shooting at all, and a semi-auto, high capacity, pistol is not an option, and/or there are serious actual budget restraints combined with a serious actual heightened risk or threat, I'd buy an 870.

[BigT]

I appreciate the reasons for LE moving to the patrol rifle because of the variety of circumstances they could conceivably face.

That said for my own use defending my own home I would select a good Semi auto or pump shotgun before an AR never mind a lever gun. I think for the likely scenario in a home invasion scenario the strengths a shotgun brings outweigh the versatility of the carbine. At the distances in my house I can make hits faster with a shotgun than a carbine and those hits are a lot more effective.

But then I am also a weirdo who has moved away from the flight control stuff for use in my house.

[peterb]

Shotguns ARE fun to shoot if you access to the clay target sports --- either a commercial range or a back-pasture portable trap. Mild target loads in a properly fitting gun are comfortable for most folks, and seeing targets break is a huge motivator. Shooting doubles is a great way to learn to run a pump.

I agree that full power buck can be no fun, but there's no need to beat yourself up that way if you just want a basic home defense tool. Shoot enough low-recoil buck to know how it patterns, and use inexpensive target loads for most of your practice/fun shooting.

Those of you doing serious work with shotguns are in a different league.

[Unobtanium]

So, I've been following the NY Long Gun Thread, (https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?19699-NY-Long-gun-choice) and it took several pages for someone to mention a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500/590 as an option for OP. Even once mentioned, things like bolt-action rifles, lever guns, exotic AR pump-actions rifles all came up a lot more. GJM did mention Benelli M1/M2s pretty quickly, to be fair, but not much came of that mention.

Shotguns seems like they're going out of style for LEO applications, but for homeowners, especially in the coastal blue states, are they really so far down this list? Why? Is a lever gun really more practical or effective than a pump-action shotgun? If they're still relevant at all, what's the state-of-the-art for shotguns? Are pumps totally old news?

In my opinion, they are not "busted ", but they are out of date. Even assuming a 10 round maximum capacity.

-my 18.5"m1014 was longer than my 16.1 " suppressed ddm4 with surefire fullsize can in place.
-the 12ga offers two realistic choices for self defense. A slug that will penetrate a bit much...and multiple large pellets that have semi random flight paths. Neither is what I'd want to be responsible for legally or morally.
-pump guns are more prone to user error than any other platform I've used.
-typically, shotguns are difficult to control for rapid transitions given equal training of the individual.
-in areas where detachable magazines are allowed, only the Russian shotguns can come close to competing for user friendliness on a reload.
-shotguns are very ungainly to suppress, if that is legal in your area.


On the positive side:

Shotguns cause a lot of tissue disruption.
Shotguns are light and a good one allows very rapid first shot, due to good balance and being a firearm made for quickly engaging close and fast moving things, and evolved on those lines.

[farscott]

While the M4/AR is "more cooler", the pump shotgun has an enormous cost advantage for those people who are looking for a HD weapon on a budget. My personal preference is the 870. For many years, I bought every 870 Wingmaster or 870P I ran across that was in better than decent shape and cost less than $300. I finally had to stop as I had a safe full of shotguns, including two of the original Parkerized 870SP guns with the oiled walnut furniture. The 870 is very easy to service at home, with very few tools needed. About the only one I decided was a must is a forearm wrench. Parts are readily available, especially since whole shotguns cost less than a decent AR upper.

Ammo is available everywhere and was plentiful even during the aftermath of Sandy Hook. The 870 also does not look like an "evil, tacticool" weapon except for those people who festoon the poor gun with all kinds of AR-inspired "accessories", which may be a plus if ever used in a real situation where litigation is a certainty. The pump action also tends to reduce the tendency of people to launch more rounds than needed, as a separate and deliberate action is needed to fire another round.

As noted, there are some negatives. Recoil and stock fit are the two big ones, especially as perceived recoil is worsened by poor stock fit. Most 870 factory stocks are too long for most people. I personally like the Speedfeed IV-S stock as I have short arms. Learning to run the pump gun is another negative as many do not put in the time and rounds, and the 870 action release is in a strange area for newbies. Patterning the gun with your desired HD load is a must, one that most people skip. Rather than change choke tubes, I change shot hardness as the more expensive shells usually have more antimony and pattern tighter.

But if one puts in the time and shells, it is hard to beat the 870 for HD work.

[SpyderMan2k4]

I am penning a couple of shotgun articles right now. In California, the 870 was my primary long gun.
I am REALLY looking forward to reading those.

[Aray]

My wife is from NY and I have been hunting there for 20 years. One thing that folks from Free America sometimes tend to overlook is the intangible aspect of what the gun looks like in the previously mentioned blue states. What I mean is this, if a homeowner uses a Remington 870 or a Marlin 336 to stop a bad guy in their house, even in NY, it is a familiar and common gun. It's not nearly so scary to a potential jury pool as a tacticool item.

I know this has been debated often, with valid points on both sides, but I personally believe it has merit in places where rails, red dots and lights make something a "Machine Gun" or "Assault Weapon" and pants wet with urine. It brings the Gary Fadden incident to mind.

[Hawk87]

I am an avid waterfowl hunter, and so I spend more time behind a shotgun then anything else. I have an AR, but it's a distant third behind how much I shoot my shotgun and pistol. So for me, a shotgun provides both power and familiarity, which makes it the logical choice.

I certainly don't think it's broken or outdated, just not as cool or sexy as a tricked out AR. It also isn't the answer for everyone. Recoil and fit are real considerations.

[SpyderMan2k4]

Since the AWB sunset in '04, it's pretty much been all ARs all the time. I think there's a combination of reasons for this- People could once again own them along with all of the features, more exposure with the wars in the middle east (via first hand or media), and honestly the increased use of the internet. Take a look at the countless photo threads on almost any forum and it becomes incredibly obvious that ARs are the cool, sexy solution. It doesn't take long for a lot of people to begin justifying purchases and therefore uses. Before long, some of these people start envisioning tactical band camp scenarios that they "require" such a loadout. We've all seen pictures of the 400lb guys open carrying their ARs. This guy isn't busting down doors, he's playing Call of Duty.

Point being, people start loosing sight of what THEIR mission TRULY is. The saying is the mission drives the gear. The saying should be YOUR mission should drive YOUR gear, because people start basing their gear off of other people's mission, or what they wish their mission was. People are certainly free to do with their money as they please, and there's nothing wrong with good, expensive, cool guy gear. However, it's easy to start down that rabbit hole and begin overlooking many other viable options- i.e. the shotgun.

Once you begin looking at realistic, in the home, across the room scenarios, the game changes completely and this is what the bulk of every day people need to be concerned with when it comes to long gun selection. Most people in the know with a lot of shotgun experience (Tom Givens, Darryl Bolke, Steve Fisher, Chuck Haggard, etc) all agree that shotguns excel at close distances when you need to stop someone RIGHT NOW. Tom Givens' explanation of serving size per bad guy in regards to ammo capacity is fantastic. Basically, a typical response with an AR is 5-7 rounds, so you probably only have 4-6 servings in an AR mag. The typical requirement for a shotgun is 1-2 rounds, so most defensive shotguns will have 4-6 servings (often more, because there are not many cases of shogun uses requiring more than 1 round with a good hit.) Not only does this negate the need for "high capacity", but factoring in the split times, you're going to spend more time shooting a the AR than you will the shotgun (based on those stats).

With Flight Control, there is a far less likely chance of stray pellets. You can put the round where you want it. I've seen some people say that shotguns take more training. Not really, it just takes very specific, good training. Pump guns are great for the budget. Stepping up to something like the 1301, it's an incredible home defense option. It's lighter than an 870, split times are lighting fast, recoil is very mild, and it's insanely reliable. Especially in a place with restrictions that seems like an incredible option. I have no restrictions where I live, I have a couple ARs and an AK, and the 12g (1301 specifically) is currently the long gun of choice inside the home.

[pablo]

Shotguns are like bumble bees, the math doesn't add up on paper but the real world results are much better.

Shotguns don't have the cool guy factor. A lot rifle training classes rarely have any shooting outside of distances and situations where shotguns excel. There's no need for a rifle for COM and face shooting at 7 yards. Learning to run a rifle outside of pistol distance is a lot to ask of some people, let alone learning a platform that takes a little bit of practice. The training market it awash in prior service types that have a lot of time behind rifles, but really don't have any business teaching. Give them a shotgun and they really start to show their asses as firearm instructors. Instead of taking the time to learn how to run a shotgun, they just declare shotguns suck. There's a reason why the shotgun separates the serious shooters from the dabblers in three gun competition. Running a shotgun isn't rocket science, but it definitely is going to take some time to learn and maintain skills, most people are better off with an AR pattern rifle. It's like the car driving analogy, it's easier to learn to drive a car with an automatic and just worry about driving, than it is to have to learn a clutch, shifting, gear selection and driving at one time.

Foster slugs don't penetrate nearly as well as some people think. Stray buckshot is always a concern, but flat out missing is a bigger issue IMO, and buckshot and slugs don't have the near the down range potential that errant rifle rounds have. Pick your poison.

[Mitchell, Esq.]

This one time at band camp...

No, wait, it was a rifle day...nevermind...I decided for S&G (last word is "Giggles") use a Mossberg 500 with a side saddle instead of an AR-15 for all the drills.

I was pleasantly surprised at how well I kept up and how I rather quickly got used to reloading the tube and dropping rounds into the breach when the tube ran dry even when moving.

Is an AR faster? More capacity? Lower recoil? Yes.
Would I rather have an AR than a shotgun if I didn't know what was going to happen but I knew "Stuff, Undetermined, Sub-Category: Bad" were likely going to occur in the immediate future? Yes.

But I wouldn't feel terribly disadvantaged for any situation I am likely to encounter either.

I'd like to run a rifle drills day with a stock SKS and see how that stacks up as well against an AR.
I have a feeling it wouldn't be terrible. Not great, but workable.

[Chuck Haggard]

In some circumstances the gauge makes more sense than the AR, and I'll say that I am a huge advocate for the AR in police work.

People who live in places where really big animals also live, and those animals sometimes pick a fight, will find slugs more gooder than .223 rounds.

Guys who bird hunt or shoot clays of some sort tend to be far better off with a shotgun.

People with a dual purpose need. I've helped several people in my area, outside of the city limits, get set up with a shotgun that is for both varmints and bad guys as the need arises. A load of high brass #4s, or a turkey loading, will also wreck a coyote trying to get your barn cat/chickens/ducks/weiner dog/etc.

People who don't have $1000 or so for a decent AR but want a good home defense long gun.


As Tom notes in his observation of student shootings, the average police shotgun engagement is a one round event. Shotguns at close range remove meat from bone. I've seen some traumatic near amputations of people's arms from close range 12 gauge hits, even with birdshot.

[secondstoryguy]

Shotguns are awesome for field euthanasia and breaching using a high brass load with small shot...other than that gimme an AR. Buckshot sucks against cars or any kinda cover(no surprise, it's soft lead with a low B/C) and the range limitations even with flight control wads kill it's versatility. That being said, at room distances on unarmored flesh they are devastating(as Chuck said above...like arms and legs hanging off devastating). GJMs posts have made me yearn for a Benelli shorty SBR for duty use but I'd have to put so much precious training time into it I've shelved the idea.

[warpedcamshaft]

That Federal Flight Control stuff seems like magic to me. I really would not have believed it if I hadn't seen it.

Its like a 9 shot burst from a V61 Scorpion with every trigger pull. (9 x 32 cal)

7 Yards, All 9 pellets in the Head-Box.

25 yards, all 9 pellets in an A-Zone.

40 yards, 4 A-zone, 5 C-zone.

From a cylinder bore....


I personally think shotguns are greatly overlooked in the civilian sector right now. Probably because of "Ninja from the Ceiling" wargaming rather than realistic assessment of needs. (Things like: Yeah, but what if 10 angry communist invaders open up with a belt-fed from the water tower... what are you going to do then? -VS- How can I keep a potential exchange of gunfire with 1-3 adversaries, most likely inside of 25 yards, as short as possible to reduce my likelihood of injury. )

[Dagga Boy]

Shotguns are awesome for field euthanasia and breaching using a high brass load with small shot...other than that gimme an AR. Buckshot sucks against cars or any kinda cover(no surprise, it's soft lead with a low B/C) and the range limitations even with flight control wads kill it's versatility. That being said, at room distances on unarmored flesh they are devastating(as Chuck said above...like arms and legs hanging off devastating). GJMs posts have made me yearn for a Benelli shorty SBR for duty use but I'd have to put so much precious training time into it I've shelved the idea.

By the same token....5.56 also sucks on cars. I was big on the shotgun for counter vehicle stuff and simply went to slug and had my guns set up for an easy slug transition. Slugs work very well against bad guys in cars.

[HCM]

By the same token....5.56 also sucks on cars. I was big on the shotgun for counter vehicle stuff and simply went to slug and had my guns set up for an easy slug transition. Slugs work very well against bad guys in cars.

Full power slugs work well against bad guys in cars. Low recoil slugs, not as much. #noshotgunnerleftbehind.

[TheRoland]

I've long wondered if a comped 16" AR was more or less likely to do serious hearing damage than a 18.5" 12 gauge; it's always seems like shotguns weren't as terrible indoors, but data from googling makes me think they might be about the same.

[Randy Harris]

All things in the proper context. The shotgun is excellent (and always has been) at repelling borders at close range.

What exactly are we doing with a home defense long gun? Repelling borders....at close range.

If we are honest about the problem and look for solutions that fit THAT problem then (while not as sexy as an M4 or an AK or whatever) the shotgun still has a lot going for it IF the operator is trained to use it. Is it the best choice for DEVGRU, CAG or FBI HRT? No. Different missions. But is it the long standing undisputed champ at making people lay down and stop fighting (with very few rounds expended) at pistol range? Probably. Even an "obsolete" Winchester 97 will ruin a home invaders day in short order. Remember the Germans were none too happy to face them in the trenches. And what is a trench?...... A hallway. The pump shotgun worked well in France 100 years ago and they'll still stop people today in hallways (or across a bedroom) in American homes today.

Assuming we feel like a pump is too "old school" and we want to opt for a Semi auto shotgun, the Remington 1187 and Benelli M1 and M4 semi autos work well. Some will argue that semis are more susceptible to dirty conditions....maybe so, but just exactly how dirty is your house? If we are talking a HD gun then it is not likely to get dragged through mud. It is more likely to get covered in a thin layer of dust from lack of handling it. Keep it relatively clean and they work just fine.

Now we can't carry as much ammo for the shotgun as efficiently as we can carry ammo for a carbine, but for an HD gun how much ammo do you REALLY envision needing? Between the 4 - 8 in the gun and the 6 extra in a butt cuff or a sidesaddle that is more than any one individual fired at the OK Corral gunfight...... and on that subject, the guy shot with the shotgun in Tombstone that day was not able to return fire...he simply staggered and crumpled to the ground.

Where the shotgun starts to become problematic is when we are facing large numbers of armored opponents at range.....and if that sounds like the likely scenario in your hood then by all means get a rifle. But if you find yourself repelling unarmored home invaders who are inside the house and getting closer then the shotgun still works just as well now as it did 200 years ago.

[Robinson]

I've long wondered if a comped 16" AR was more or less likely to do serious hearing damage than a 18.5" 12 gauge; it's always seems like shotguns weren't as terrible indoors, but data from googling makes me think they might be about the same.

Either one will be loud, but I'd bet the AR will be more damaging.

[Dagga Boy]

Great post Randy. For me, my shotgun is the solution for most home defense problems. My old agency's SWAT Team would use full length Benelli's for the trailer with a primary mission of hall security. They are very good in their realm. It is a limited realm, but that realm is also where we often see a long gun that can dominate a pistol problem. My adage for most folks is the shotgun (with training) is an excellent home defense tool while waiting for authorities to arrive. If you dial 911 and nobody is coming, the magazine fed carbine becomes the choice for that problem.

[rob_s]

I've long wondered if a comped 16" AR was more or less likely to do serious hearing damage than a 18.5" 12 gauge; it's always seems like shotguns weren't as terrible indoors, but data from googling makes me think they might be about the same.

Which, I think, goes back to why people actually buy one over the other. Whether it's needed or not, whether they'll every do it or not, whether it's the panacea people think it is or not, there's at least *potential* to SBR a 5.56 AR and still get the terminal performance you need at short range AND add a suppressor to cut down on the hearing damage. Switch that up to a 9mm AR or a 300blk with subsonic rounds (whether the 9mm with rounds designed to perform at those velocities or a 300 which is a .30 pill) and there's even greater perceived benefit to the AR.

Which, again, isn't to say any of those things are, or are based in, reality but perception pretty much is reality in these things and that tips the scales ever more in favor of the centerfire shoulder-fired semi-auto. Eventually, it's difficult to find someone that actually knows how to run the shotgun, let alone enough people to fill the class he'd want to teach.

ultimately it doesn't matter what is best for one unique task. The AR is the better buy for most people because it scratches more itches and has a broader spectrum of potential uses.

[BillSWPA]

My wife is from NY and I have been hunting there for 20 years. One thing that folks from Free America sometimes tend to overlook is the intangible aspect of what the gun looks like in the previously mentioned blue states. What I mean is this, if a homeowner uses a Remington 870 or a Marlin 336 to stop a bad guy in their house, even in NY, it is a familiar and common gun. It's not nearly so scary to a potential jury pool as a tacticool item.

I know this has been debated often, with valid points on both sides, but I personally believe it has merit in places where rails, red dots and lights make something a "Machine Gun" or "Assault Weapon" and pants wet with urine. It brings the Gary Fadden incident to mind.

I have taught the legal portion of two local shooting classes, and Gary Fadden is one of two things I mention when talking about gun selection. The incident is a very good example of why not to use something covered by the National Firearms Act for self-defense if you have another alternative. For those not familiar with the incident, Mr. Fadden was a salesman for HK who happened to have a Ruger select fire rifle in his truck when he and his girlfriend were pursued quite some distance by a couple of lowlifes who thought they had somehow been wronged in traffic. AFter the unsuccessful attempt to flee, the Ruger rifle was utilized in a very clear cut case of self-defense. Unfortunately his choice of rifle led to $90,000 in legal fees proving his innocence. The incident was described in American Handgunner magazine by Massad Ayoob.

The other item I mention is a 2009 study by Glenn Meyer in which prospective jurors were presented with questionable shootings involving both handguns and AR style rifles. The study found that differences in conviction rates based on weapon choice were insignificant, but use of an AR was likely to result in a longer sentence if convicted. The shooting hypotheticals were sufficiently questionable that hopefully a well-trained defender would avoid them. While the study does provide evidence that the choice of an AR might not help a jury's perception, AR's are becoming significantly more common. For example, in 2009, they accounted for 1 in 4 rifles purchased. Given the increasing prevalence of these rifles as well as the questionable nature of the shootings used in the study, I would not be particularly worried about using and AR and would worry far more about not being involved in a questionable shooting.

What is invariably important is making reasonable choices, being able to explain and demonstrate why those choices were reasonable, and being ready to counter whatever false accusations those choices might draw. The "demonstrate" part is important, because that is what will bring a jury to your way of thinking. For example, I am not going to worry about an Aimpoint or weapon mounted light on my gun contributing to a bad image in front of the jury. Using equipment that allows easy, accurate shooting under a wide variety of light conditions makes any third parties who might happen to be near the line of fire that much safer. That is easy to make a jury understand.

If you are using, for example, a 10" AR (NFA weapon), one could explain that decreasing the velocity of the already low-penetrating 5.56 ammo makes people on the other side of walls that much safer. One could also explain that a sound suppressor protects everyone from hearing damage, an argument that would likely work better if you were quick to call the police after the incident, but I can see how the resulting image might not be helpful in the legal aftermath.

I would absolutely avoid vulgar or other questionable verbage or graphics on the gun, as one recent case illustrated.

In short, gun choice does matter, but it is a small factor in the big picture.

[Randy Harris]

Great post Randy. For me, my shotgun is the solution for most home defense problems. My old agency's SWAT Team would use full length Benelli's for the trailer with a primary mission of hall security. They are very good in their realm. It is a limited realm, but that realm is also where we often see a long gun that can dominate a pistol problem. My adage for most folks is the shotgun (with training) is an excellent home defense tool while waiting for authorities to arrive. If you dial 911 and nobody is coming, the magazine fed carbine becomes the choice for that problem.

True enough. And if someone can ONLY have 1 OR the other then they need to weigh the "extreme danger / low frequency vs low danger/high frequency " metrics and determine which is a better solution to their likely problems. But I prefer having both available too.

For me (and I am not forcing my gun religion on anyone else) the shotgun is the gun for when society is still functional and I am inside my house and not having to go mobile. But if society has collapsed, or maybe you live in a rural area where response time is extreme and everyone knows you have valuable stuff and it might be worth the risk to try to take your "compound" or you are on the road travelling and then can't get home due to socio/political/environmental issues then the magazine fed carbine is the better choice. Only reason I wouldn't go with both is that you can't really efficiently carry both.

A rifle and 4 or 5 mags solves a wider range of potential issues and allows the carrying of between 100 and 200 rounds more efficiently than the shotgun. The shotgun while not as versatile solves (arguably better than anything else) a very narrow window of the most LIKELY issues assuming the world still works the way it did yesterday and society has not collapsed.

Most folks who inhabit this forum are going to be thinking ahead enough to consider "worst case scenarios" and that often drives the carbine decision....but how often does worst case really rear its ugly head? When we look at how many people ever actually encounter the "End of the world as we know it scenario " where they get into an extended long gun gunfight, the shotgun to repel home invaders is probably still far and away the statistical winner for most people. And as such if we are choosing tools to fix likely problems the ol' shotgun still has a lot of life left in it.

[Jeep]

For me, the choice is easy. I'm a civilian who lives in a suburb. It is very unlikely that I will ever be lawfully shooting at someone more than 25 meters away, and I don't want any projectile go be able to travel too far. A shotgun fills that ticket very well. I thus rely on a pistol (handiest indoors and a very short ranges) and a shotgun.

If I lived in a rural area, I'd have a rifle along with that shotgun, but it might be a 336 with a scope rather than an AR.

If our government stays on full retard and the worst happens and we get terrorist attacks or riots etc etc. then I'd promote an AR to defensive standby. But even with the government on full retard I don't think that is likely to happen.

[TR675]

Y'all keep talking sense like this and you're going to send me straight back to M4C for some confirmation bias re: why shorty AR's are rad and the best for fending off imaginary home invaders.

Seriously, I saw a thread once where someone asked if they were "screwed" in a home defense situation after they sold all their AR's and only had a Mossberg 12 gauge left...yes, you will now be screwed when the shotgun-proof ninja battalion dynamically assaults your home.

[nalesq]

If you dial 911 and nobody is coming, the magazine fed carbine becomes the choice for that problem.

I have a shotgun set up for theoretical home defense use in the back of the walk in closet of my master bedroom. But given that the handgun that I actually carry on a regular basis is almost always going to be much more readily accessible, either because it is on my person or in a small safe next to my bed (I have small children), I know I will always default to the handgun if a threat is suddenly perceived.

So I think the only situation I will ever actually select any shoulder fired weapon over a handgun for defensive use is if indeed, the only police cars nearby are those that have been flipped over and burning merrily midst an interregnum. And in such circumstances I know I will probably skip the gauge and dig the mag fed carbines out of the safe.

[xmanhockey7]

Here's the thing a lot of LEO use and homeowner use for a long gun is different. Mission drives the gear. If I'm a cop that may have to deal with an active shooter in a Walmart where I may be engaging past 25 yards and am accountable for my rounds an AR with a variable optic or red dot makes a ton of sense. For the homeowner that needs to prepare for a home invasion they're likely not shooting past 10 yards in a lot of homes. Yeah I know some people have longer shots. Having a gun like a shotgun loaded up with some 00, #1, even possibly up to #4 buck is going to be a great solution.

I hear from plenty of guys who are considered squared away about how much better an AR is and the shotgun is pointless. Their arguments are often skewed and based on stuff they really don't know what they're talking about. If someone wants to use an AR as their bedside gun I say go for it. Excellent choice. But don't knock the shotgun. Again, mission drives the gear. For a lot of homeowners a shotgun makes a lot of sense. Just like any gun you may be using get training!

[Hawk87]

In one of Randy's posts he mentioned that some people are worried about the reliability of semi auto shot guns. I wanted to point out that I have dropped my semi auto shotgun (which is even a gas gun) into the swamp muck (twice one trip) while hunting and still run a box of shells through it. That's happened on multiple trips. After the amount of abuse I have seen hunting shotguns take and still run, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to run one for home defense.

[1slow]

When I lived in town it was Scattergun Technologies 870 12 Ga. I agree with overwhelming power and damage at close range. I also can see Brenneke slugs for bear etc.

Now that I live in 200 acres it is military rifle AR 15, AK47, FAL. Part of that is I have 20 times the practice with AKs, FALs that I do with shotguns. Part of it is being better able to do a shot near a family member. So for me it is more reflexive. YMMV.

When people start about shooting vehicles I am not thinking 12 Ga slugs. I am thinking AK 7.62x39 or better still FAL 7.62x51. You can ruin a car with these.

If they get the 1301 Comp sorted out I would like that for a house gun. It can be run so fast under control.

[pablo]

The Pennsylvania Amish school and Virginia Tech shootings make a pretty good argument for having a shotguns available for active shooter response. A couple bucks worth of chains and locks, or lumber can really throw a wrench in the works. It's always a balancing act.

[BillSWPA]

When I lived in town it was Scattergun Technologies 870 12 Ga. I agree with overwhelming power and damage at close range. I also can see Brenneke slugs for bear etc.

Now that I live in 200 acres it is military rifle AR 15, AK47, FAL. Part of that is I have 20 times the practice with AKs, FALs that I do with shotguns. Part of it is being better able to do a shot near a family member. So for me it is more reflexive. YMMV.

When people start about shooting vehicles I am not thinking 12 Ga slugs. I am thinking AK 7.62x39 or better still FAL 7.62x51. You can ruin a car with these.

If they get the 1301 Comp sorted out I would like that for a house gun. It can be run so fast under control.

Having to shoot near or past a family member is an excellent point, and is a possibility regardless of where one lives.

[Randy Harris]

In one of Randy's posts he mentioned that some people are worried about the reliability of semi auto shot guns. I wanted to point out that I have dropped my semi auto shotgun (which is even a gas gun) into the swamp muck (twice one trip) while hunting and still run a box of shells through it. That's happened on multiple trips. After the amount of abuse I have seen hunting shotguns take and still run, I wouldn't hesitate for a second to run one for home defense.

EXCELLENT point. Think about how dirty a gun might get if dropped while getting in and out of a duck blind...yet they still work. I have a feeling nobody's SD shotgun is going to get THAT dirty sitting in the closet or the safe.

[Randy Harris]

For me, the choice is easy. I'm a civilian who lives in a suburb. It is very unlikely that I will ever be lawfully shooting at someone more than 25 meters away, and I don't want any projectile go be able to travel too far. A shotgun fills that ticket very well. I thus rely on a pistol (handiest indoors and a very short ranges) and a shotgun.

If we realistically look at what the longest shot we would even be able to take inside our houses the odds are pretty high that the pattern will probably still be "fist sized" at worst. Using Federal LE13300 (Flight control 8 pellet) it might be smaller.

My house is just over 2000 sq ft but due to architecture the longest shot I'd even be able to take is straight down a hall way right at 10 yards (barring some bizarre situation where I was sitting at the farthest end of the dining room table with shotgun in hand and shooting someone in the front doorway which would be about 13 yards). So barring some Thanksgiving Apocalypse event, 10 yards is the farthest and 5 to 7 yards is the most likely distances I'd even be able to be shooting inside my house.

I think if people actually pace it off and get a real idea of the angles and geometry of their houses they'll see that even 15 yards is a long way in a house and due to architecture is rare unless you have a truly large house. Most likely places you'd be shooting from would probably make the distances even shorter. If I'm bunkered up in the bedroom waiting for them to kick the door open, that shot is only about 5 yards....

[Malamute]

Are there suggested 20 ga loads?

Any idea where to find a beater barrel for a Remington model 11 20 ga that could be cut down?

And maybe a buttstock that could be cut down for a super soft pad for a gimpy shoulder?

[ASH556]

I like the shotgun. 3gunning has improved my skill on the platform and also proven to me the reliability of Benelli Inertia guns. I have a great AR too and at the risk of being a little arrogant, is probably set up as the ultimate CQB weapon according to multiple military SME's and special unit guys.

That said, for the house I keep a 12ga Benelli. The single round devastating calabilites are amazing. I keep mine loaded with 7 rounds of #1 Flitecontrol. It's like dumping an entire Glock 19 magazine of .30 caliber with every trigger pull. I also have 4 Federal Truball Deep Penetrator slugs on a Mesa stock saddle.

If for whatever reason the bad guys decide trying to drive away with a loved one is a good idea, a slug in the engine box will have a lot better chance of stopping them than the 55gr Gold Dots I keep in the rifle.

http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/D46F1088-7B0F-44E9-8DF9-0FB16F21ED03.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/D46F1088-7B0F-44E9-8DF9-0FB16F21ED03.jpg.html)
http://i854.photobucket.com/albums/ab104/ASH556/IMG_8107_1.jpg (http://s854.photobucket.com/user/ASH556/media/IMG_8107_1.jpg.html)

[scott]

If there's an equivalent of the flitecontrol loads in 20ga, I don't know it. If I recall though, any buckshot #3 and up will make FBI penetration guidelines.
Just buy a few kinds and pattern them.

[warpedcamshaft]

Federal makes a 20 gauge Premium Flight Control round in a 4 buck - 24 pellet configuration. I have no idea how 4 buck performs, and only ever really bothered trying/researching 1 buck and 00 buck in the 12 gauge flavors.

[Malamute]

Federal makes a 20 gauge Premium Flight Control round in a 4 buck - 24 pellet configuration. I have no idea how 4 buck performs, and only ever really bothered trying/researching 1 buck and 00 buck in the 12 gauge flavors.

Im guessing it will at least be a step up from birdshot.

ETA: Looks like No 3 buck is the common load for buck.

Do the 20 ga foster type deer slugs (non-Brenneke) work about like the 12 ga foster slugs? Meaning not overpenetrating if one happened to be in civilized areas.

[Gadfly]

Tom Givens made the point elsewhere that he had no instances in his database about a shotgun ever having to be reloaded in a self-defense situation due to its stopping power advantage.

Off the top of my head, two come to mind. Newhall, and the Miami Platt/Mattix shootout. Not saying the shotgun is a bad choice. But its not magical, and people can and often do miss with buckshot. The two incidents listed below are anomalies. But they show shotguns can run dry with no effect, and they were not reloaded although they needed to. Both instances the officer transitioned to a handgun. Most likely they had no rounds available to reload.

Given a choice (and our agency has that choice) of one long gun per agent (14" 870, 11.5" or 14.5" M4s, very limited number of MP5A3s) I have the M4... Shit gets knocked, bumped, smacked etc, and I trust the M4 safety far more than the shotgun's. I also get more rounds, lower recoil, easier reloads, etc... BUT, when the only option we had was 870s, I never felt unsafe or outgunned. I have seen several people killed with shotguns (crime scenes). They were pretty chewed up.

-------------------------
NEWHALL: Meanwhile, Officer Alleyn emptied his Remington Model 870 shotgun at the Pontiac, firing the gun so fast he accidentally ejected a live round in the process. A single pellet from the shotgun struck Twinning in the forehead, but it did not penetrate his skull and only inflicted a minor superficial wound. After expending all his shotgun rounds, Officer Alleyn opened fire on Davis with his .357 Magnum revolver, but did not make any hits. Davis returned fire with his sawed-off shotgun, striking Alleyn with several rounds of 00 buckshot and inflicting fatal injuries.[4][7]

PLATT/MATIX: Agent Mireles fired four more rounds from his Remington 870 at Platt and Matix, but hit neither.[18]

[pablo]

Do the 20 ga foster type deer slugs (non-Brenneke) work about like the 12 ga foster slugs? Meaning not overpenetrating if one happened to be in civilized areas.

High velocity swaged foster slugs are an excellent choice if "over penetration" is a concern, their weak construction plus high velocity usually causes them to break apart into pieces or donut. Most won't meet FBI specs for penetration into bare gelatin. In most cases reduced recoil foster slugs will penetrate significantly further than their high velocity counterparts. A persistent myth is that shotgun slugs as a group are capable of extreme penetration.

[Dagga Boy]

Yes, you actually have to hit something for the 12ga. To work, just like anything else. On the contrary to the above from Gadfly, a recent shooting with a group well know for their skill got two felons with a single shot through the rear of a car (rear passenger and driver) and the primary suspect in the vehicle was also hit with a single round through both carotid arteries in the neck through the back window and out the front. All with slug from Benelli's. Definitely NOT like 5.56 and vehicles.

[Gadfly]

Not saying the shotgun is a bad choice. But its not magical, and people can and often do miss with buckshot. The two incidents listed below are anomalies.

Nyeti, like I said, shotguns do work when they hit. I have seen several bodies torn apart by them. But too many folks I have met assume they are magical and that you can't miss with buckshot. You can miss. As I noted it's an anomaly to miss, not the rule... But you still have to aim.

I don't know the scope of the study that was being quoted. But those two famous incidents just came to my mind. It was not a slam on Tom Givens or his study. If I came off that way, it was not intended.

Again, I don't feel under gunned at all with an 870. I just prefer the AR....

[okie john]

Yes, you actually have to hit something for the 12ga. To work, just like anything else. On the contrary to the above from Gadfly, a recent shooting with a group well know for their skill got two felons with a single shot through the rear of a car (rear passenger and driver) and the primary suspect in the vehicle was also hit with a single round through both carotid arteries in the neck through the back window and out the front. All with slug from Benelli's. Definitely NOT like 5.56 and vehicles.

Any idea what kind of sights were used?


Okie John

[LSP972]

I don't know the scope of the study that was being quoted. But those two famous incidents just came to my mind. It was not a slam on Tom Givens or his study. If I came off that way, it was not intended.

Again, I don't feel under gunned at all with an 870. I just prefer the AR....

Keep in mind that, by that point, Mireles' left hand and arm were useless; he fired those last four rounds both aiming and working the action each time with his right arm only.

I have stood over bodies hit both with birdshot, buckshot, and .223 out of ARs. Unless I could guarantee a CNS hit with the rifle, at indoor ranges I'll take the gauge ANY day. Big, messy hole; rapid exsanguination; etc. Which is why the gauge is my usual HD stand-by. For hurricanes or other long-duration events, yeah, the carbine comes out of the safe and becomes primary... But the gauge is close to hand.

.

[BillSWPA]

But too many folks I have met assume they are magical and that you can't miss with buckshot. You can miss. As I noted it's an anomaly to miss, not the rule... But you still have to aim.

I have heard the same thing about not having to aim with a shotgun, as well as other nonsense, said by people who should have known better. Shotguns are definitely misunderstood by many.

[Lester Polfus]

I don't know the scope of the study that was being quoted. But those two famous incidents just came to my mind. It was not a slam on Tom Givens or his study. If I came off that way, it was not intended.
.

I am fairly certain that the scope of Mr. Givens study was limited to homeowner/ordinary citizen vs. felon shootings, and didn't include law enforcement.

[Dagga Boy]

I just finished on article on shotgun myth's.....number one addressed was "you don't need to aim".

[Lon]

I just finished on article on shotgun myth's.....number one addressed was "you don't need to aim".

Wait, what? That can't be. I hear it all the time in gun stores so it must be factual. The best reason for using a shotgun - point the "fiery death end" (thanks, Tom!) in the general direction and let 'er fly.

[Mitch]

What's the current 12 gauge pump recommendation? I see a lot of people mentioning 870s, but the express I have develops surface rust pretty quick and occasionally locks up when trying to extract cheap ammo. I'm not sure how much I'd trust a new 870P out of Freedom Group, where does that leave me? Mossberg? Or is the 870 still the way to go, warts and all?

[Xrslug]

What's the current 12 gauge pump recommendation? I see a lot of people mentioning 870s, but the express I have develops surface rust pretty quick and occasionally locks up when trying to extract cheap ammo. I'm not sure how much I'd trust a new 870P out of Freedom Group, where does that leave me? Mossberg? Or is the 870 still the way to go, warts and all?

I forget how many tens of millions of 870's have been made at this point, but in any event there are plenty of really clean, basically like new Wingmasters from the '70s and '80s out there for less than a new 870 Police. Keep in mind you'll probably want to update the bolt/lifter assembly but otherwise they should be good to go. One of the reasons I like 870's is the vast amount of aftermarket support. Another possible option -- Benelli Supernova. I have never used one so I don't know if it's duty ready, and I prefer wood and steel guns for totally subjective reasons, but the Supernova is the gamer's pump gun of choice these days and Benelli generally puts out very high quality products.

[HCM]

I forget how many tens of millions of 870's have been made at this point, but in any event there are plenty of really clean, basically like new Wingmasters from the '70s and '80s out there for less than a new 870 Police. Keep in mind you'll probably want to update the bolt/lifter assembly but otherwise they should be good to go. One of the reasons I like 870's is the vast amount of aftermarket support. Another possible option -- Benelli Supernova. I have never used one so I don't know if it's duty ready, and I prefer wood and steel guns for totally subjective reasons, but the Supernova is the gamer's pump gun of choice these days and Benelli generally puts out very high quality products.

The Supernova is, or at least was, the issue gun for the Georgia State Patrol.

[HCM]

What's the current 12 gauge pump recommendation? I see a lot of people mentioning 870s, but the express I have develops surface rust pretty quick and occasionally locks up when trying to extract cheap ammo. I'm not sure how much I'd trust a new 870P out of Freedom Group, where does that leave me? Mossberg? Or is the 870 still the way to go, warts and all?

Find a used 870P like the ones at Summit Gun Broker or find a used older wingmaster and send it to Wilson for the 870 Steal re-build.

http://wilsoncombat.com/new/shotgun-remington-steal.asp#.Vv3vltJrjmg

The Mossberg is a good but the quality varies with 590's and older 500's being better than the newer 500's. The position of the safety is great but pretty much limits you to a conventional style stock.

[Bigghoss]

What's the current 12 gauge pump recommendation? I see a lot of people mentioning 870s, but the express I have develops surface rust pretty quick and occasionally locks up when trying to extract cheap ammo. I'm not sure how much I'd trust a new 870P out of Freedom Group, where does that leave me? Mossberg? Or is the 870 still the way to go, warts and all?

I really like the layout of the Mossbergs. 590 is my first choice for a pump. I've seen favorable reports for the Supernova. Been hearing bad things about Remington in general and the companies they've aquired for a few years now.

[SLG]

I have lots of 870's and they are very nice. I have 1 Supernova and it is also very nice.

Long guns are not for searching your house, imo, especially when you have kids or other family around. Given that, the length of your room is meaningless.

A Benelli M2 would be my first, do all choice, followed by the Benelli M4. Then either the 870 or the Supernova.

[LockedBreech]

So while we're on the shotgun topic.

I have an 870 express tactical that was my home defense option way before I educated myself to realizing that an 870 Police would've been a much better choice re: finish quality, and before I moved on to an AR, but to the gun's credit it never messed up on me and I liked shooting it.

Anyway the ammo I have for it still is that Winchester PDX1 with a 1oz slug and 3 00 buck pellets. Is that stuff total gimmick or decent?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jared]

What's the current 12 gauge pump recommendation? I see a lot of people mentioning 870s, but the express I have develops surface rust pretty quick and occasionally locks up when trying to extract cheap ammo. I'm not sure how much I'd trust a new 870P out of Freedom Group, where does that leave me? Mossberg? Or is the 870 still the way to go, warts and all?

Like was mentioned, there are loads of older 870's out there that are "used" and can be had for cheap. One local shop close to me has a big long rack of shotguns that has at least 3 good older 870's on it any day of the year.

[rob_s]

Depending on where you live, you may have a local shop with a whole rack of police trade-in 870s from various department contracts. The POs for new guns usually include a requirement that the shop buy the old guns, which they in turn sell off to the public. I've gotten two 870Ps that way, almost bought a third, and have been in at least a half-dozen shops that had a similar selection. The first time I bought the gun, had the shop re-park it, and kept it until it got stolen. The second one I almost bought the shop was willing to let me come in and play legos with the parts to make the gun I wanted. The last one I bought, that I still have, the shop let me put the barrel from one on the receiver of another to make what I wanted.

IME, the factory parkerizing, when lightly oiled at the beginning, is the best rust-proof coating there is.

[peterb]

Wilson Combat has a "Remington Steal" package for rebuilding older 870s:
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/shotgun-remington-steal.asp#.Vv5tMWH3bv4

Older Wingmasters are fairly common on Gunbroker.

[rob_s]

Wilson Combat has a "Remington Steal" package for rebuilding older 870s:
http://wilsoncombat.com/new/shotgun-remington-steal.asp#.Vv5tMWH3bv4

Older Wingmasters are fairly common on Gunbroker.

That's a great deal. Generally I'd prefer to keep my wood furniture, but that's a great deal.

[LHS]

For my needs, an 870 works just fine. I'm not going to make a 100y+ shot in a defensive scenario outside of a complete and total collapse of society, so being able to launch the equivalent of half a mag of subgun ammo with every press of the trigger at targets inside 50 yards is plenty good.

That said, the 870 (or any shotgun, really) is a unique manual of arms, and is very different from the ARs that most people today have time behind. For me, I grew up with an 870 in my hands, and have far more time with one than I do either ARs or AKs. I'm very comfortable with the platform, and confident in my ability to run it well under stress. That means a lot. If I'd spent time in the .mil running around with an M16 or M4, I might feel differently. But I spent a considerable amount of time running around in the woods blasting squirrels and sitch with an 870 growing up, plus the whole genetics thing.

In the end, I fall back on the wisdom of Super Dave: "The twelve-gauge combat shotgun is the Hammer of God. Its only limitations are range and carrying enough ammo to keep it in the fight."

[Randy Harris]

What's the current 12 gauge pump recommendation? I see a lot of people mentioning 870s, but the express I have develops surface rust pretty quick and occasionally locks up when trying to extract cheap ammo. I'm not sure how much I'd trust a new 870P out of Freedom Group, where does that leave me? Mossberg? Or is the 870 still the way to go, warts and all?

The Express guns will occasionally have issues with the super cheap "Aluminum rim " brass that federal and some others offer in bulk packs sold at Walmart.

I have an Express 870 worked over by Scattergun Technologies into their "Border Patrol " model back when Roger Small owned 'em and the shop was in Nashville circa 1998. It had been fine with any ammo I had run through it..... but I made the mistake of buying that aluminum rimmed ammo (it was cheap) to run in Givens' 2 day shotgun class a few years ago. It worked, mostly , but I still had to occasionally sweep an empty out of the port that did not get ejected completely. On the other hand all the actual brass rimmed cases I ran through the gun that weekend cycled without a hitch and I won the class "shoot off" at the end. I just know now that for that gun I don't need to try to feed it aluminum rimmed cheapo ammo. Which really is not a big issue since there is so much brass rimmed cheap ammo available to use for practice.

So if you foresee having to shoot aluminum rimmed shells in your gun then the express 870 may not be the way to go, but I have never had any issues with actual brass rims. And as others mention, a Wingmaster or older Police Magnum can be found at a good price and can be upgraded if you prefer.

[pablo]

The only thing wrong with the new 870P's is the price. I'm sure a lemon gets out every now and then, but they're a whole different beast from the express guns.

A little polishing with a brake cylinder hone will take care of most of the sticky shell problems in an 870.

[RichY]

I have lots of 870's and they are very nice. I have 1 Supernova and it is also very nice.

Long guns are not for searching your house, imo, especially when you have kids or other family around. Given that, the length of your room is meaningless.

A Benelli M2 would be my first, do all choice, followed by the Benelli M4. Then either the 870 or the Supernova.

Does the M2 feed low recoil FliteControl ammunition reliably? I have a quite a bit of Federal #1 and 00 ammunition, but all of it is the low recoil variety. Also, how is your M2 set up? I have a Hans Vang 870 now, but have been toying with going to a semi auto for some time. I just don't want to have a ton of unreliable ammunition on hand and have to start over again.

[TheRoland]

The only problem with the M2 is really that I've not seen a way to reduce length of pull. 14.5" is really, really long indoors. Even the Mossberg 930, which has a recoil system in the butt stock, can be made shorter than that.

[SeriousStudent]

The only problem with the M2 is really that I've not seen a way to reduce length of pull. 14.5" is really, really long indoors. Even the Mossberg 930, which has a recoil system in the butt stock, can be made shorter than that.

Ugh, that is likely a deal breaker. I was seriously thinking about snagging a Benelli M2 Entry Gun, and dropping an Aimpoint Micro on it.

A 12.5" LOP is perfect for me. The additional two inches would make it feel like marching down a hallway with a halberd.

[peterb]

That's a great deal. Generally I'd prefer to keep my wood furniture, but that's a great deal.

I suspect you could just remove the wood before sending the barreled action, and swap it back on when thevgun came back.

[HCM]

Does the M2 feed low recoil FliteControl ammunition reliably? I have a quite a bit of Federal #1 and 00 ammunition, but all of it is the low recoil variety. Also, how is your M2 set up? I have a Hans Vang 870 now, but have been toying with going to a semi auto for some time. I just don't want to have a ton of unreliable ammunition on hand and have to start over again.

My 1980's vintage M1 works fine with it as well as the Winchester low recoil slugs we have at work.

[LSP972]

The Express guns will occasionally have issues with the super cheap "Aluminum rim " brass that federal and some others offer in bulk packs sold at Walmart.



Those Winchesters with steel heads are just as unreliable; and not just in 870 Express models.

I'm looking for another 870, and I damn sure am not buying a recent-production anything. I had a shot , two years ago, at a pristine OLD WingMaster Police (with real steel trigger group) when the Pennsylvania State Police dumped all of theirs and a local dealer grabbed a dozen of them. I'm still kicking myself for passing it by.

When I was at Quantico in 1993, the FTU had an 870 that was sort of their range mascot. It had been acquired in 1960, and had over 100K rounds through it with only an ejector and extractor change. Those older guns were built well. I cannot say the same for the newer ones… and not all of it can be blamed on the Freedom Group, especially the poor finish. We were seeing that well prior to the Freedom Group's take-over.

To tell you the truth, I wouldn't buy ANY new Remington product. The 700 recall was/is bleeding them white, and I'll wager they are cutting corners faster than S&W ever did during the MIM transition.

.

[Lester Polfus]

That's a great deal. Generally I'd prefer to keep my wood furniture, but that's a great deal.

My favorite 870 at the PD had no finish on the barrel and the very distinct impression of two front teeth in the butt stock.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Are there suggested 20 ga loads?

I just got a couple of boxes of this #1 Buck load from SG Ammo to try out in my wife's shotgun. Haven't patterned it yet:

http://sgammo.com/product/20-gauge/25-round-box-20-gauge-number-1-buckshot-ammo-spartan-ammunition

I think Rio also has a similar loading.



Given a choice (and our agency has that choice) of one long gun per agent (14" 870, 11.5" or 14.5" M4s, very limited number of MP5A3s) I have the M4... Shit gets knocked, bumped, smacked etc, and I trust the M4 safety far more than the shotgun's.

I really think that the Mossberg 590DA1 never got it's due. I thought that the DA trigger was just the ticket for the above reason, and I had no problem busting clays with it. I'd love to buy the T&E one that I got for the village I was Chief at.



I really like the layout of the Mossbergs. 590 is my first choice for a pump.

If I were going to acquire a new pump gun, it would be a 590 with Magpul furniture.

[SLG]

Late to reply.

I have never used reduced recoil ammo in the M2, so I can't really comment. As for LOP, as I said, I don't use a long gun for searching, so it is a moot point. Otoh, aside from the Mesa stock that Tom posted, Benelli makes a shorter LOP comfortech stock.

[Chuck Whitlock]

http://www.mossberg.com/product/510-youth-mini-super-bantam-all-purpose-field-50358/

My wife's shotgun is the 510 mini in 20 ga. I don't know about long term durability, but it is super short, light, and handy.

[Le Français]

As for LOP, as I said, I don't use a long gun for searching, so it is a moot point.

I don't know if you're willing to discuss this publicly, but the above comment confused me. Don't your current/former units search with long guns all the time? Or did you mean by yourself in a home defense scenario?

[SLG]

I don't know if you're willing to discuss this publicly, but the above comment confused me. Don't your current/former units search with long guns all the time? Or did you mean by yourself in a home defense scenario?

Yes.:-)

Since i have dependants in my house, I search with a pistol in order to have a free hand. The long gun is more like an AA battery, and only really comes into play if my wife is home, or if someone gets into my bedroom.

Professionally, I use a carbine whenever possible.

Personally, even without dependants, I am more likely to search with a pistol, as I will have more things to do on my own, than if I had a team with me.

Obviously,a correct lop has more benefits than just searching.

[Le Français]

Yes.:-)

Since i have dependants in my house, I search with a pistol in order to have a free hand. The long gun is more like an AA battery, and only really comes into play if my wife is home, or if someone gets into my bedroom.

Professionally, I use a carbine whenever possible.

Personally, even without dependants, I am more likely to search with a pistol, as I will have more things to do on my own, than if I had a team with me.

Obviously,a correct lop has more benefits than just searching.
That makes sense. Thank you.

[Chuck Whitlock]

I had no idea that a DA shotgun was a thing. I have an irrational love of DA triggers (and other triggers that people think suck). I am intrigued.

This was around 2000-2001. I really liked the damn thing. I (the town) purchased the T&E gun, and I had a local place install an XS Big Dot front sight and chop 2" off the synthetic stock. The only thing that would have made it better would have been a 14" tube instead of the 18.5".

If I run across another one, I will snap it up.

[TheRoland]

Thanks for this, guys. I've been thinking about the home defense long gun again after a home invasion in my ban-state town, and this thread has probably made someone, possibly Hans Vang, a shotgun sale.

[farscott]

I would also suggest JD at AI&P Tactical. He builds really nice guns on the 870 and 11-87 platforms. With Flite Control wads, I no longer see the need for the Vang barrel work. The AI&P guns are very solid and much less expensive than a Vang Comp or WC/Scattergun.

http://www.aiptactical.com/

[SLG]

I have a full house WC 870, and have had Vang and others. They are nice, as long as you get what you want and not what they want to sell you. My factory 870's, modestly accessorized to my taste, are every bit as good, so don't feel like you have to get a custom 870. Of all the guns out there, an 870 probably needs the least customization to bring it to its potential.

[RONK]

Shotguns are the working man's(or women's) gun,in recent times they seem like their being supplanted by the AR platform.pistol-forum is doing a great job by informing people that the shotgun has a very viable place for home defense.

[CoGT3]

Last weekend with the "old and busted" shotty. #1 FC with some scattered slugs at 7, 10, 15, and 20 yds (buck finally started to spread at 20). As all have said, get the right tool for the job. I have a pistol, shotgun, and ar locked up under the bed. With a 5 and 3 yo in the house, pistols job is to get me to them, then them and wife in safe location. Then I t's time to switch to shotgun. We have an open floor plan so 20 yd shot is possible. AR is mostly for bumps outside in the unlikely situation I would go outside to engage (100 yds to cover out front 75 yds in the back. Mostly to shine a very bright light in someone's face if they decide to drive a boat on shore on the back yard).

7125

[Unobtanium]

High velocity swaged foster slugs are an excellent choice if "over penetration" is a concern, their weak construction plus high velocity usually causes them to break apart into pieces or donut. Most won't meet FBI specs for penetration into bare gelatin. In most cases reduced recoil foster slugs will penetrate significantly further than their high velocity counterparts. A persistent myth is that shotgun slugs as a group are capable of extreme penetration.

Remington 1oz foster at 1560fps are magical. They aren't going quuuiiiittteeee fast enough to donut or frag typically, but they deform and compress significantly. I also find them to shoot about 3-6moa at 50 yards.

One other thing if note. When the world ends, shotguns can pump mad amounts of lead into an area. I remember dumping a mag of #4 buck downrange once from my m1014. It was dry and dusty, and nothing in thay field would have been safe put to 200 + yards. I'd not want to go up against a madman in a field hundreds of yards off with him having one!