ND/AD Is it bound to happen?

[BJXDS]

I had an interesting conversation recently about law of averages/logic and guns so to speak, that really got me thinking.

The short version was, if you ride a motorcycle long enough you have either had an accident or you will have one. Which is a common notion for motorcyclist's.

So by logic, If you shoot/handle guns long enough you have either Had an AD/ND or WILL have one.

Do you agree or disagree ?

The pure Vulcan side of me agrees with this but, not really sure how I feel, Never say Never

What do you say?

[Luke]

Disagree. I've wrecked some bikes. None were my fault. Shooting isn't a joint exercise so you control everything. Not so much on the road.

[Chance]

I think the, "There are two types of shooters" speech was the most useful thing someone shared with me when I first started out, and I agree 100%. I remind myself every time I put hands on a firearm, and it helps to keep me focused on safety.

[Vinh]

Disagree. The life of a motorcyclist partially depends on the goodwill of other drivers. Short of being killed mid-reset, an unintended discharge is all you.

[BehindBlueI's]

If you count all accidentally fired shots, I say yes. Malfunctioning gun going runaway, learning to shoot big bores and getting avrevolver double, etc. When I first started shooting a 1911 I was used to the CZ and Beretta da/as. I had some accidental double taps instead of single shots when transitioning to the SAO trigger.

[pablo]

No, even though most folks don't start firearm safety as seriously as they should until they have an ND, just like most motorcyclist don't take protective equipment as seriously as they should until they've been in a bad wreck and spend a lot of time in the hospital dealing with avoidable injuries. I shot a TV, I was dry firing, finished, reloaded, got distracted and resumed dry firing. Gun went click really fucking loud and the TV exploded. I take safety a whole lot more seriously now.

Those that have, just have a better sense of the gravity of what they're dealing with.

[ReverendMeat]

Agree.

The more often we handle guns, the more likely we are to make a mistake with one. BUT, the more experience we have, the less likely we are to hurt anyone by doing so.

So far, I've fired off three (ETA: actually four) rounds without intending to do so, but all happened with the gun pointed at a target downrange.

[Drang]

Motorcycles to guns isn't even apples to oranges, it's apples to... I dunno, sea urchins.

I agree that, the more you handle a firearm with live ammo the more likely you re to have an unintentional discharge, but there are too many variables. And, frankly, I think you need to calculate Accidental and Negligent separately.

[OnionsAndDragons]

Motorcycles to guns isn't even apples to oranges, it's apples to... I dunno, sea urchins.

I agree that, the more you handle a firearm with live ammo the more likely you re to have an unintentional discharge, but there are too many variables. And, frankly, I think you need to calculate Accidental and Negligent separately.

I like this take.


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[RevolverRob]

I agree accidental/negligent are two different things.

I've driven nearly 750,000 miles in less than 15-years. The only accident I've ever had was a woman rear-ending me at a stop light. You can't count for everything, that wasn't negligent on my part, but it was an accident.


If you count all accidentally fired shots, I say yes. Malfunctioning gun going runaway, learning to shoot big bores and getting avrevolver double, etc. When I first started shooting a 1911 I was used
to the CZ and Beretta da/as. I had some accidental double taps instead of single shots when transitioning to the SAO trigger.

Totally in agreement here. I've experienced at least two accidental slam-fires with two different firearms during my time shooting. I've also experienced the infamous Remington 700 mechanical "remove the safety and have the gun discharge without being anywhere near the trigger" discharge. Fortunately, in all cases, guns were pointed down-range on live ranges, because I was preparing to shoot all of them and following the rules of gun safety kept everyone safe, but they technically count as unintended discharges.

[Joe in PNG]

If you shoot old guns, you're eventually going to get an AD.

If you shoot other people's guns, you're eventually going to get an AD. Especially if ol Bubba Dremmel "sweetend 'er up"

[ffhounddog]

Almost had a ND last night. My wife's off duty gun a Glock 23 was on the gun mat that she was suppose to clean and when the kids started crying yesterday she left it in the gun room. I was putting up a few items saw no magazine in the Glock 23 and a 40 round on the floor and was at first just going to pull the trigger to the rear because well thats how I store them unloaded. Decided to rack the slide just as an afterthought and a golddot flew back at me. Now being scare was an understatement. Found out later she forgot to take the magazine out first before racking the slide so the chambered round flew out and the next round loaded.

Distractions I believe, cause a lot of these mishaps and causes for NDs even with experienced shooters.

[Lex Luthier]

Distractions I believe, cause a lot of these mishaps and causes for NDs even with experienced shooters.

Indeed. I've seen enough of that sort of thing as a hobbyist and observer to consider "distracted discharge" a valid subset.
I've had two NDs, both old guns, both while observing proper range handling, so they went for the 300 yd steel while I was aiming for the 100yd steel plate. One example of an AD so far- that was an uncle's 1916 Navy Luger that had congealed oil in the toggle which caused it to double twice in one magazine.

[Nephrology]

I had one ND very much like pablo's, but put the round into the corner of the room of a house I was renting at the time. Fortunately it hit a wall stud which stopped the bullet in its tracks. I now chamber check religiously.

[JV_]

I think there's a rate of trigger pulls (or gun handling) to ND/ADs.

While the rate may be 1:1000 for some, and it might be 1:1,000,000 for others, I don't think the rate is 0:X for anyone, except those that will never touch a gun.

Someone who's super safe may have that 1:1,000,000 rate, but if he's handing guns for 8 hours a day and shooting 50K rounds per year, there's a lot of opportunity for that incident to become more likely.

[45dotACP]

Since my sister had a 9mm bullet hit 6 inches in front of her feet...and it was a 9mm snubby....I realize AD/NDs are certainly always possible...

But I fight the notion that they are inevitable...even though I've had a scare before (found a live round in my gun when I was about to dry fire)

All guns are loaded until I've determined they aren't.

Mechanically damaged guns are a different story...friends guns are a different story...but I try to aim those in a safe direction before even loading them at the range. Otherwise, my house operates as a "Cold Range" where guns and ammo are stored in seperate places until I make the conscious decision to load and make ready (before holstering up or before prepping my HD firearm) and then I walk from the safe to the ammo shelf.

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[41magfan]

Semantics can often obscure relevant truths so let me just offer this as fodder for the discussion;

Most “unintended” discharges clearly involve some degree of negligence and they occur because of operator input to the gun’s controls. Occasionally (but rarely) a gun will discharge without any input from the operator and we tend to call those “accidents” without assigning fault.

But the truth is, if you’ve ever had a gun discharge a little “early” (your trigger finger outpaced your muzzle orientation) then you have initiated an “unintended” discharge. The fact that you’re your muzzle may have been pointed safely downrange doesn’t change the fact that the gun fired - due to your input - at an unintended moment. Now, hardly anyone would consider that an AD or an ND so I think it's safe to say that our process of labeling things is too often an exercise in splitting hairs.

I say all that to suggest that one shouldn't be too quick to be overly critical of others just because your “unintended” discharges have never caused injury or damage to property. The degrees of separation between many unintended discharges can be tenuous – even if most of them are preventable.

To paraphrase a statement made by a world renowned herpetologist …. “A handler that’s never been bitten either hasn’t handled many snakes or hasn’t been doing it very long.”

[Cookie Monster]

I had been doing weeks of dry practice with an NY-2 trigger spring while my HD handgun had a minus connector. Everyone was away from the house, so I had been practicing searching the house with a blue gun and working corners and all that. Carry the HD gun to the bedroom and then in absentmindness I am pie-ing a corner and boom, ears ringing, bullet through the wall and splinters the siding on exit into the woods.

Lots of fail on my part, lots of lessons learned, and changes made. I used to think my gun handling for safety was exceptional and I would never ND but that was ego and ego will make you eat it.

[45dotACP]

I guess the notion that I haven't had a negligent discharge because I've "only" been shooting/handling guns since fourth grade and that I will absolutely experience one if I shoot more just doesn't float with me.

I do get that accidents happen...they can happen to anyone...they can happen to me and that they haven't happened to me yet probably has more to do with luck than anything. I repear...I absolutely do not judge anyone who has had an accidental or negligent discharge...statistics simply didn't smile on you that day.

But I also like to think that a very hard application of focus, safety and expectation of others to observe same when it comes to handling guns has given me at least an extra month or two before my obligatory desk pop.

Then again...statistics what they are, there will be AD/NDs...they gotta happen to someone...but I doubt they'll happen to everyone...sure increase the number of rounds fired...but ask the top 20 IDPA or USPSA shooters in the world who expend millions of rounds sum total yearly how many AD/NDs they've and I'd bet they won't have all had one.

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[Wendell]

...unintended discharges...

'Unintended discharge' is my preferred term; in my opinion, it's a much more useful term than ND or AD. Who needs to argue about fault? The ND vs AD label is just semantics that create a stigma and promote denial. The fact is it happened, and it happens, and it might happen, and it was unintended.

[Joe in PNG]

An example- my old High Standard Duramatic .22 has a cross bolt safety under the slide that also acts as slide catch.
It is possible, especially with my monster hands, to nudge it just so during a string of fire. What happens is that the sear releases the striker, but the safety catches it. Take it off safe, and (BANG).

I really need to get a new .22 pistol.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

My answer is a question: When you get older will a fart lead an AD/ND in your pants?

The answer is that it is likely. The same for guns. I've had one ND in my shooting time of a couple of decades. Won't discuss the other.

[olstyn]

I had some accidental double taps instead of single shots when transitioning to the SAO trigger.

I had one of those the first time I, as a novice shooter, shot my Walther P99c. I knew the reset was short, but I was not ready for it, and instead of "bang," the gun went "bangbang." It hasn't happened again in the intervening years and thousands of rounds, but if you search waltherforums.com, you'll find no small number of posts about newbies with both the P99/P99c and the PPQ experiencing similar events. Short reset + light trigger + novice shooter = more loud noises than intended. Was it negligent? I guess that depends on how you define it; I intended to fire the gun once and fired it twice. It was pointed in a safe direction, etc. To my mind, given that it happened in as safe a way as it possibly could have, it was a learning experience more than anything else, but I guess if folks define it as negligent, than I belong in the "had one" column. That doesn't necessarily mean that I believe it's inevitable for everyone, but on the other hand, stuff happens, and there's really no excuse for ignoring the safety rules.

[BJXDS]

Since I started this I think it only fair to reply. I think it will happen. The topic of discussion was dry fire. The other person stated they would NEVER dry fire in the house, because of the possibility of an AD/ND. I think we ALL AGREE, OBEY ALL Rules of gun safety, EVERY-TIME! and when we do damage will be minimized. For me the most important Rule is ALWAYS treat EVERY Gun as if its loaded/ NEVER point it at anything you don't want a hole in! Rally the same thing, I guess.

I will not say it can't happen, but I can say I am ALWAYS aware of where it is pointed.

That's ALL....... Thanks