Guns and Ammo article on The Roland Special Glock 19

[HCM]

Hat tip to Chuck Haggard for the original link to he article.


Members of one of our elite national assets conceptualized the Roland Special as a concealed carry pistol. While their world might not necessarily be everyone’s world, they are required to make pistol shots in excess of 25 yards, shoot their pistols while using night-vision goggles and make low percentage shots while a threat, a no-shoot and themselves are all in a state of motion, i.e., hostage rescue.

6765

http://www.gunsandammo.com/network-topics/the-guns-network/the-roland-special-glock-19/

[mj888844]

Looks cool

[Cheap Shot]

" this Glock 19 equipped with a KKM Precision match barrel, which is capable of 1½-inch groups at 25 yards with full-power duty ammunition found on the commercial market"

1 1/2 inch groups at 25yds?

I've got a KKM on my G34, and I'm a fan. To put in mildly I'm skeptical of the above claim

[TiroFijo]

While a more accurate pistol is always desirable, what is the practical difference between a gun that shoots into 1.5" vs 2.5" when taking "low percentage shots while a threat, a no-shoot and themselves are all in a state of motion"?

[NETim]

No HRED? No APEX extractor?

[JBP55]

While a more accurate pistol is always desirable, what is the practical difference between a gun that shoots into 1.5" vs 2.5" when taking "low percentage shots while a threat, a no-shoot and themselves are all in a state of motion"?

MO Money!

[JBP55]

No HRED? No APEX extractor?


Having worked on several hundred none needed any APEX Parts. YMMV.

[Rosco Benson]

I have a S&W M&P9 that ATEi machined for an RMR, added suppressor sights, and cut front serrations. They did a very nice job. Top-notch work.

Rosco

[voodoo_man]

I'll just go ahead and remind people that while this is a cool pistol and all, remember if you shoot someone in a completely legit shoot, you probably won't see your pistol back from some time. Locally you will have to get a judge to order the gun be returned to you.

[Chuck Haggard]

When we first had a thread on this concept the doodie tards had a bunch to say on their site, so I was told since I refuse to visit such a hive of fuckery, about my comment that the guy who came up with this idea was an actual tier 1 faceshooter. Guys thought the idea to be tacticool and dumb. That a guy the stature of say Pat McNamara is the originator of this concept should make people think about what it's for. Context is important, mission drives the gear train.

[GRV]

Hmm....looks very familiar...
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator
:rolleyes:

[rob_s]

If this gun is by face-shooters, for face-shooters, is there a reason the rest of us should care about it?

[okie john]

" this Glock 19 equipped with a KKM Precision match barrel, which is capable of 1½-inch groups at 25 yards with full-power duty ammunition found on the commercial market"

1 1/2 inch groups at 25yds?

I've got a KKM on my G34, and I'm a fan. To put in mildly I'm skeptical of the above claim


I've got gen4 Glocks that routinely turn in 1.5" groups at 25 yards with selected loads. I have no problem believing that a good match barrel with proper fitting would do better.


Okie John

[okie john]

If this gun is by face-shooters, for face-shooters, is there a reason the rest of us should care about it?

To understand and keep abreast of new ideas about what's possible?


Okie John

[nycnoob]

Why did they not spring for the custom fitted barrels?
I remember reading that custom fitted barrels perform better than drop-in.
Is this not true any more?

[okie john]

Why did they not spring for the custom fitted barrels?
I remember reading that custom fitted barrels perform better than drop-in.
Is this not true any more?

We don't know that. They could have bought oversized barrels and fitted them in-house. Remember that this is a classified unit. There will always be a certain amount of distortion in any public-facing accounts of their activity.


Okie John

[Vinh]

Cool gun. Hostage rescue from concealed carry? Must be some pretty sneaky dudes.

[TheRoland]

Wow, they made a special gun for me, but I'm just hearing about it now? Maybe I missed the PM.

[GJM]

I need to wait long enough, that I will think it was my own idea, before trying this KKM comp thing.

[Cheap Shot]

Misfire

[Cheap Shot]

I've got gen4 Glocks that routinely turn in 1.5" groups at 25 yards with selected loads. I have no problem believing that a good match barrel with proper fitting would do better.


Okie John

Sell me those guns:)

Are they stock barrels or KKM? Are you shooting match grade reloads or just experimenting with commercial until you found the best groups? Is animal sacrifice and a magic spell involved?

WHATS THE SECRET!

[GAP]

Sell me those guns:)

Are they stock barrels or KKM? Are you shooting match grade reloads or just experimenting with commercial until you found the best groups? Is animal sacrifice and a magic spell involved?

WHATS THE SECRET!

Just did this off hand with an OEM barrel and a subcompact from 50... So yeah, it's possible. :o

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18246-Pistol-Accuracy-at-Longer-Ranges/page7

[JAD]

WHATS THE SECRET!

He shoots pretty good.

[YVK]

shoot their pistols while using night-vision goggles

I am curious how RMR works out under the NODs.

[Cheap Shot]

Just did this off hand with an OEM barrel and a subcompact from 50... So yeah, it's possible. :o

https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?18246-Pistol-Accuracy-at-Longer-Ranges/page7

Congrats, respect and WOW. Thats impressive shooting (same goes for okie john)

I noticed both okie john and you were shooting Gen 4's. Up until now I've refused to buy Gen 4's when my gen 3's work fine.

I may reconsider that

[HCM]

Hmm....looks very familiar...
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator
:rolleyes:

It is very familiar and not "new"- but Doc GKR got it from Roland.

Given the article is from Guns & Ammo I would not bet on it being 100% accurate. Regardless, it's an interesting concept - but certainly not the answer for everyone.

You will get the most out of the comp with hotter ammo, NATO, +P, +P+ etc. with 115 FMJ range ammo not so much.

While the Gen4's are generally more accurate than the Gen 3's a fitted KKM barrel won't hurt accuracy.

[Kevin B.]

I am curious how RMR works out under the NODs.

It takes some getting used to, but works fine.

[HCM]

Cool gun. Hostage rescue from concealed carry? Must be some pretty sneaky dudes.

It's a G&A article...

As for uses, if you are working in a low profile environment, where you must carry concealed, may have to take shots beyond 25 yards and couldn't have a rifle, or may not be able to access a rifle quick enough, it makes sense.

[GAP]

Congrats, respect and WOW. Thats impressive shooting (same goes for okie john)

I noticed both okie john and you were shooting Gen 4's. Up until now I've refused to buy Gen 4's when my gen 3's work fine.

I may reconsider that

Thank you, I've never had an issue with any of my Gen 4s. I've only been shooting on a regular basis for three years, so I wouldn't know any differently among the different generations.

Could I duplicate that target at will? No I couldn't, but I like knowing the capability is there and that how I'm training is working.

I could see running a 17 with all of those attachments in a duty role but I like my plain 26s (with night sights) for carry.

[YVK]

It takes some getting used to, but works fine.

Is the dot visible through the NOD?

[okie john]

Sell me those guns:)

Are they stock barrels or KKM? Are you shooting match grade reloads or just experimenting with commercial until you found the best groups? Is animal sacrifice and a magic spell involved?

WHATS THE SECRET!

The guns are a G17, a G19, and a G43. Barrels and other internals are stock, and the two bigger guns have adjustable sights.

I think that Gen4 Glocks have the potential to shoot this well IF you test enough ammo to find the load they shoot best. I stumbled into that load (American Eagle 147-grain FMJ) early in the game with the G17, and got lucky in that it also shoots well in the other two guns. In fact, AE 147 outshoots every other load I’ve tried in these guns out to 50 yards, although all three of them shoot 115- and 124-grain S&B FMJ well out to 25 yards. My biggest beef with 147-grain ammo is that it at 50 yards, the POI is 6-8” below the 25-yard POI. 124-grain ammo shoots a lot flatter, so it’s eaiser to get hits at 100 yards with it.

Other keys to getting these Glocks to shoot well include

Grip the gun like you’re trying to crush the mag well.
Shoot enough slow fire 25 and 50 yards that GJM gives you a hard time about it and designs a drill to show the error of your ways.
Find the sights that you shoot best. For the longest time, I ran three-dot night sights, but the G19 now has a plain black rear with a plain post that has a little dab of orange paint on the tip.


I also have two Gen3 G17’s with fitted Wilson barrels. They shoot 115- and 124-grain loads really well, and one of them will regularly make 5-shot groups in about three inches at 50 yards with the handload it shoots best. Unfortunately, some 147-grain loads will keyhole at 25 yards with both of these guns. I’m not sure of the reason, but I suspect that it has to do with the rate of twist, which is 1:16 for the Wilson barrel and 1:9.84” for the factory barrel. I believe that these guns shoot as well as they do because their barrels were fitted to them. I also have to clean the Wilson barrels every 2-300 rounds for best results.


Okie John

[Kevin B.]

Is the dot visible through the NOD?

Yes. The intensity of the dot needs to be adjusted appropriately.

[NETim]

Does it really need a grip plug?

[okie john]

Does it really need a grip plug?

That's the real secret.


Okie John

[ranger]

I am curious how RMR works out under the NODs.

Cannot speak for the RMR but the EOTECH has a NV setting and worked great

[HopetonBrown]

I wouldn't want to use a Glock without one.

Me too.

[HCM]

Does it really need a grip plug?

For Military or outdoors use - yes. Its a channel for dirt / dust to get into the internals.

[Lomshek]

Was there a reason to go with the add on compensator as opposed to just using an extended barrel with ports on the exposed part? That would reduce the bulk at the muzzle some for a little more comfortable concealed carry and one less bolt on part.

[LittleLebowski]

Having worked on several hundred none needed any APEX Parts. YMMV.

My mileage did indeed vary :D

[HCM]

Was there a reason to go with the add on compensator as opposed to just using an extended barrel with ports on the exposed part? That would reduce the bulk at the muzzle some for a little more comfortable concealed carry and one less bolt on part.

The KKM comp porting is on the sides so the increased flash is not obscuring your sights vs say and extended barrel with magnaporting or the Glock C models.

[HCM]

My mileage did indeed vary : D

Mine too. Only a hand full out of a few hundred but vary it did.

[EVP]

Doc's intitial post on his roland had better detail and more meaningful data then that G&A spread.

Cool idea, besides the relative "concelment" factor. I wonder how the performance differs from a setup like this vs a 6 second mount.

[voodoo_man]

http://w.iwebcenters.com/bbenterprise2/ecommerce/comps-barrels-glock-xdm-s-w-m-p/glock/glock-compensators/gen-3-carver-custom-3-port-comp-9mm-3.cfm


Is this the one guys are getting? I considered getting one to make my g17l even more ridiculously long.

[HCM]

The KKM comp porting is on the sides so the increased flash is not obscuring your sights vs say and extended barrel with magnaporting or the Glock C models.

Never mind - I was wrong.

[HCM]

http://w.iwebcenters.com/bbenterprise2/ecommerce/comps-barrels-glock-xdm-s-w-m-p/glock/glock-compensators/gen-3-carver-custom-3-port-comp-9mm-3.cfm


Is this the one guys are getting? I considered getting one to make my g17l even more ridiculously long.

no, the KKM. It looks like a two port. Similar though.

6793

[Dagga Boy]

All this is meaningless to me as I daily carry a gun that is more mechanically accurate than I can shoot, and as good if not better than the Glock with a match barrel. With that said.....the guy who originated this is a real life super star ninja and it seems to work for him. For those with no use for these things......great. For those who are trying to score better than 630 on the 700 point aggregate course regularly.....sort of makes sense. Mission drives the gear train.

We have gotten to the point where we are making Glocks into custom 1911's and they are no longer service pistols, but enthusiast pistols just like the 1911's. When I hear issues like tolerance stacking, we are back to the same thing on a different platform that simply takes less actual skill to work on. I am still heavily invested in high end 1911's, so again none of this is at all exciting to me. For others, I totally get it and there are people who are capable of running a stock service pistol to its capabilities and this stuff makes sense (like the originator of the Roland). For others, buying hardware to try to cheat software is a folly, but a long established one that will likely always be a normal route many go.

[RevolverRob]

While a more accurate pistol is always desirable, what is the practical difference between a gun that shoots into 1.5" vs 2.5" when taking "low percentage shots while a threat, a no-shoot and themselves are all in a state of motion"?

I'm not sure what you mean by practical difference? The difference is approximately a reduction in 1" average-group-size at 25-yards. That's a pretty significant reduction, period.

But for me the "practical" difference is putting a round from my gun, exactly where I want it, when I want it. My experience with most factory-Glocks is that they can't do that with the degree of repetition I, personally, desire.


Was there a reason to go with the add on compensator as opposed to just using an extended barrel with ports on the exposed part? That would reduce the bulk at the muzzle some for a little more comfortable concealed carry and one less bolt on part.

My understanding is a portion of this concept was designed around keeping a length that was G17-length or shorter (at least that's what DocGKR's group was focused on), to continue use of a variety of other pieces of gear. Because RMR, additional slide length for increased sight radius is wasted. The KKM compensator is almost certainly more effective than an extended and ported barrel at reducing recoil. Although, I think there are still mixed opinions on the efficacy of a compensator on anything besides +P and +P+ in 9mm.

It's a pretty fancy tacticool master-blaster and apparently works well for the dude(s) who use them...but for the price of entry it's a non-starter for me. Plus, I still get itchy at the thought of buying a factory gun, dropping in a KKM match-grade barrel, and still only getting 1.5" accuracy at 25-yards. Yea...that's pretty good accuracy from a bottom-feeder. But for all of this fancy-pants work on that blaster, I want sub-1" groups or better.

That said, the stats, at least that Doc has posted, indicate the platform works very well. Particularly from the standpoint of speed and accuracy.

-Rob

[HopetonBrown]

For Military or outdoors use - yes. Its a channel for dirt / dust to get into the internals.
I use it as a mini mag guide.

[GJM]

All this is meaningless to me as I daily carry a gun that is more mechanically accurate than I can shoot, and as good if not better than the Glock with a match barrel. With that said.....the guy who originated this is a real life super star ninja and it seems to work for him. For those with no use for these things......great. For those who are trying to score better than 630 on the 700 point aggregate course regularly.....sort of makes sense. Mission drives the gear train.

We have gotten to the point where we are making Glocks into custom 1911's and they are no longer service pistols, but enthusiast pistols just like the 1911's. When I hear issues like tolerance stacking, we are back to the same thing on a different platform that simply takes less actual skill to work on. I am still heavily invested in high end 1911's, so again none of this is at all exciting to me. For others, I totally get it and there are people who are capable of running a stock service pistol to its capabilities and this stuff makes sense (like the originator of the Roland). For others, buying hardware to try to cheat software is a folly, but a long established one that will likely always be a normal route many go.

Let me translate what Darryl took two paragraphs to say -- no f'ing way, he is going to get caught carrying a Glock. Doesn't matter whether it is called the Roland, the Rutherford or the Rigby. Now this is something he might carry:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsglsk3ren.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsglsk3ren.jpeg.html)

[rojocorsa]

Interesting concept, to say the least.

Every day I keep seeing more and more gaps between competition firearms and pipe hitter tools being diminished.

The original thread on this gun and the general knowledge on other pistols mentioned here are why I signed up.

[voodoo_man]

no, the KKM. It looks like a two port. Similar though.

6793

any reason why the KKM over the carver?

[Chuck Haggard]

Was there a reason to go with the add on compensator as opposed to just using an extended barrel with ports on the exposed part? That would reduce the bulk at the muzzle some for a little more comfortable concealed carry and one less bolt on part.

The reason for the comp was making the gun shoot so flat you don't lose the dot in recoil, tracks flatter, and faster.

[Chuck Haggard]

any reason why the KKM over the carver?

Because Roland has a lot of experience with KKMs in Glocks over the years.

[voodoo_man]

Because Roland has a lot of experience with KKMs in Glocks over the years.

So...no fancy response on porting type or diagrams on linear compensation as it translate over to accuracy under recoil? Just "he has experience with this..." type of statement?

[TiroFijo]

I'm not sure what you mean by practical difference? The difference is approximately a reduction in 1" average-group-size at 25-yards. That's a pretty significant reduction, period.

But for me the "practical" difference is putting a round from my gun, exactly where I want it, when I want it. My experience with most factory-Glocks is that they can't do that with the degree of repetition I, personally, desire.

-Rob

I would really like to see the difference between a 1.5" vs 2.5" pistol at 25 yds, shooting fast, on the move, under stress. Take your super shooter, give him identical guns (without him knowing which one ¡s the excalibur), and have him run the same courses of fire, several times.

Not only 1" is not much of a difference, but my bet is the shooter errors or lack thereoff are what determine the outcome to any significant degree; the real differece is not 1.5" vs 2.5", but the several runs (with both guns) in which groups get significantly larger due to human error.

[Dagga Boy]

Let me translate what Darryl took two paragraphs to say -- no f'ing way, he is going to get caught carrying a Glock. Doesn't matter whether it is called the Roland, the Rutherford or the Rigby. Now this is something he might carry:

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg251/GJMandes/image_zpsglsk3ren.jpeg (http://s250.photobucket.com/user/GJMandes/media/image_zpsglsk3ren.jpeg.html)

You do know that I was very early on the red dot, Glock thing. I just didn't like the RMR and went with an Aimpoint Micro. Wayne was actually able to hold the black on a B8 off hand with it with a factory G17 threaded barrel.......and, I think I got the extraction issues worked out...

Would I trade it for the HK 45 pictured.....in a hot second. My next red dot pistol won't need a KKM barrel either;)

[Dagga Boy]

I would really like to see the difference between a 1.5" vs 2.5" pistol at 25 yds, shooting fast, on the move, under stress. Take your super shooter, give him identical guns (without him knowing which one ¡s the excalibur), and have him run the same courses of fire, several times.

Not only 1" is not much of a difference, but my bet is the shooter errors or lack thereoff are what determine the outcome to any significant degree; the real differece is not 1.5" vs 2.5", but the several runs (with both guns) in which groups get significantly larger due to human error.

How about we go back to exactly what I discussed earlier. Pull up the 700 point aggregate. Go shoot it at 25 yards with your job on the line. Let me know if 1.5 vs. 2.5 is a big difference.

I think this is going to be one of those threads that is going to have a big disconnect and folks don't get it.

Edited to add....sorry, the picture of the prototype ATOM mount on my Glock should have gone in the previous post.

[TiroFijo]

I fail to see how shooting to a NRA B-8 target, some of it slow fire, at a known distance, without the shooter or target moving, relates to the poinst I made...

[GRV]

I get that The Roland is probably the best answer to the particular problem.

However, when I hear about real life ninjas using this stuff I can't help but wonder: how is the reliability of the gun effected? It's a mix of parts, significantly effecting many major functions (trigger, barrel, slide weight,...) that can't possibly have the sort of large agency testing that a lot of people around here currently or used to promote as the acceptability standard for a real-use handgun. Also, does it affect parts replacement cycles? Sounds like lots of variables and very little data, which strikes me as the antithesis of what a real life ninja would want in a weapon.

It reminds me of the legend about the group who chased after lighter and lighter Glock triggers until they created the "- ." connector which ultimately had to be abandoned for reliable issues...

[Dagga Boy]

I fail to see how shooting to a NRA B-8 target, some of it slow fire, at a known distance, without the shooter or target moving, relates to the poinst I made...

Then you don't understand how many of these folks train to shoot the other stuff fast and surgically. But, I am sure you have enough experience shooting actual Real moving targets, Real HRT, and doing bad things to Real evil people better that a guy with extensive time in several units in the US military that do to comment.

I ll just go back to my little revolver-forum safe space. I may be a little personally vested in this one. What cracks me up is a lot of this gun is really a mesh between the sport shooting world melded to shoot terrorists and other cancers of the world and folks on this forum don't get it.

[LSP972]

I wouldn't want to use a Glock without one.

Why?

.

[ffhounddog]

Pretty good concept to implementation of a concealed carry/Duty pistol and I would love to see if the Glock 19 MOS came with a threaded barrel you could run something similar without the KKM goodness. Granted I think the KKM compensator is a great piece of kit but now with this article there migt be others that start creating their own compensators that "might" be better later.

My question can this pistol be used with a Safariland level 2 holster or are they using a LBT holster if run on a duty rig like the HK45c holster that lbt made for NSW.

[LittleLebowski]

Cool gun. Hostage rescue from concealed carry? Must be some pretty sneaky dudes.

My thoughts, your words.

[LittleLebowski]

What cracks me up is a lot of this gun is really a mesh between the sport shooting world melded to shoot terrorists and other cancers of the world and folks on this forum don't get it.

Shoot, I thought it was blindingly obvious that the two worlds are meeting with the competition world being ahead with regards to new ideas albeit new ideas that needs to to mature in order to be reliable and durable. It's not like this weapon is earthshattering at all.

[LittleLebowski]

Mine too. Only a hand full out of a few hundred but vary it did.

I was good for three out of three :D And when I bought my first Gen4, ToddG warned me straight up that it wouldn't run well with range ammo.

http://rationalgun.blogspot.com/2011/10/glock-were-pretty-good-choice.html

[imp1295]

No base of knowledge,
Price of admission is a bit steep I guess: Here is my hack list of prices...

Blue Label G19 Stock Sights - 398.00
RMR 06 - 557.00
ATEI Milling - 160
Suppressor Sights - 55
Enhanced Slide Serrations front and rear - 135
Slide refinishing - 90
dissassemble slide - 20
Glock Grip Package - 210
X300u - 209
minus connector - 24.95
Gen3 trigger bar - 15.00
HRED - 19.95
APEX fre - 56.95
KKM threaded barrel w/compensator- 285.00 (kkm web site)

Grand total of roughly $2,236.00 sans shipping.

I totally get it though. Price isn't an object and as Marshal Haggard and others have stated repeatedly, Mission drives gear.

Now to figure out where to play with one and then decide whether or not to develop a PSYOP campaign to convince the wife it was her idea...

[JV_]

I find that the semi circular shape at the rear of the magwell tends to mess up my reloads if I'm not careful. The grip plug effectively eliminates that problem.

Same here, it's a magnet for the top round in my mag.

[Default.mp3]

My question can this pistol be used with a Safariland level 2 holster or are they using a LBT holster if run on a duty rig like the HK45c holster that lbt made for NSW.I have been told they are using the Roland Special with the Safariland 6354DO-6832, which was designed for a Glock 34 with a Docter Optic and X300.

I'll play around with the concept once Brontes Firearms releases their compensator for the P30.



Price of admission is a bit steep I guess: Here is my hack list of prices...

Blue Label G19 Stock Sights - 398.00
RMR 06 - 557.00
ATEI Milling - 160
Suppressor Sights - 55
Enhanced Slide Serrations front and rear - 135
Slide refinishing - 90
dissassemble slide - 20
Glock Grip Package - 210
X300u - 209
minus connector - 24.95
Gen3 trigger bar - 15.00
HRED - 19.95
APEX fre - 56.95
KKM threaded barrel w/compensator- 285.00 (kkm web site)

Grand total of roughly $2,236.00 sans shipping.That price list makes me sad, mainly because I'm in far deeper on my P30LSes, and I'm still short on a comp, and would have significantly less holster support.

[Dagga Boy]

I have been told they are using the Roland Special with the Safariland 6354DO-6832, which was designed for a Glock 34 with a Docter Optic and X300.

I'll play around with the concept once Brontes Firearms releases their compensator for the P30.

That price list makes me sad, mainly because I'm in far deeper on my P30LSes, and I'm still short on a comp, and would have significantly less holster support.

Yeah, but you didn't need a match barrel...it came with one, and will actually extracts properly, so there is that.

[Default.mp3]

Yeah, but you didn't need a match barrel...it came with one, and will actually extracts properly, so there is that.True, but I did spring for OEM threaded P30L barrels when I first saw the Roland Special and wanted to emulate it... which each cost me pretty close to a Blue Label Glock (which could have easily been avoided if I hadn't been a special snowflake and just went with a P30S instead of a P30LS). HKParts has a damn good selection, but man, they really do price their stuff high. #hkproblems

[Jeep]

Yeah, but you didn't need a match barrel...it came with one, and will actually extracts properly, so there is that.

This is what you H&K users always say, never once considering the Americans who are kept employed manufacturing the match barrels, machined extractors and HRED's that get added to Glocks. Because a big part of perfection is providing jobs to those who get your pistols running right.

[imp1295]

That price list makes me sad, mainly because I'm in far deeper on my P30LSes, and I'm still short on a comp, and would have significantly less holster support.

Same here. However, I think that if you wanted you could cut some corners here and there. ATEI and L&M prices have a bit of variance. You could go without the ATEI frame work and save some cash there (others have different pricing if you looked around). I also added some of the typical things people go with on new Gen4s (gen 3 trigger bar, FRE, HRED etc..)

At a minimum if I did it I would start out with the Blue Label Glock and go with the L&M RMR package which goes for around 952.00 total. Then add the KKM kit for another 285. That gets you to around 1,635 but without the frame mods and other stuff. Regardless, it is quite a commitment.

ETA: Oh, for that price, the APO VP9 Practical-Tactical package is about 1617. So it is actually a wash between the two except without the comp on the HK...

[Dagga Boy]

Any chance you might be over-extrapolating a bit? It seems to me more people "on this forum" get it than don't. Perhaps I'm just inclined to see it that way.

Should have said "several". My bad. I blame GJM for trolling me into a Glock thread and I know better.

[okie john]

However, when I hear about real life ninjas using this stuff I can't help but wonder: how is the reliability of the gun effected? It's a mix of parts, significantly effecting many major functions (trigger, barrel, slide weight,...) that can't possibly have the sort of large agency testing that a lot of people around here currently or used to promote as the acceptability standard for a real-use handgun. Also, does it affect parts replacement cycles? Sounds like lots of variables and very little data, which strikes me as the antithesis of what a real life ninja would want in a weapon.

Given a Tier I unit and a wartime budget, I don't think you can assume that they skipped this kind of testing. They're not the kind of people who let their peers take half-assed gear into harm's way. That said, they also don't hold press conferences when they change up their game.


Okie John

[GRV]

Given a Tier I unit and a wartime budget, I don't think you can assume that they skipped this kind of testing. They're not the kind of people who let their peers take half-assed gear into harm's way. That said, they also don't hold press conferences when they change up their game.


Okie John

Fair point. I didn't quite read into it as "X unit uses this setup". I was interpreting it as "here is one operator's uber cool personal custom gun".

From my very limited peek into that world, I've gotten the impression that individual customization/selection of gear is pretty normal. But I could be way off there. Also doesn't mean that's what's going on here, but that was my thought process.

ETA: Reading the article itself, it does sound like a unit thing. Reading just the thread threw me off.

[okie john]

I fail to see how shooting to a NRA B-8 target, some of it slow fire, at a known distance, without the shooter or target moving, relates to the poinst I made...

We can question this particular pistol and this particular test all we want. What matters is that people who literally live and die based on their ability to do this stuff have access to information that we do not, and as a result, they feel that the pistol is useful and the test is relevant.


Okie John

[okie john]

Fair point. I didn't quite read into it as "X unit uses this setup". I was interpreting it as "here is one operator's uber cool personal custom gun".

From my very limited peek into that world, I've gotten the impression that individual customization/selection of gear is pretty normal. But I could be way off there. Also doesn't mean that's what's going on here, but that was my thought process.

ETA: Reading the article itself, it does sound like a unit thing. Reading just the thread threw me off.

Agreed that it might not be unit-wide. But again, this is a Guns & Ammo article about a classified unit so I wouldn't get too caught up in things we'll probably never be able to verify.

They could be running cap-and-ball Colts for all we know.


Okie John

[Jeep]

That said, they also don't hold press conferences when they change up their game.

Okie John

Yeah--you various flavors of "quiet professionals" for some reason want to remain . . . well, quiet professionals. Kinda hard to get endorsement and movie deals doing that, though. Think of the endorsement money that could flow from announcements such as "Army Tier One SMU Officially Endorses Glock Perfection!" Or, "Tenth Group Goes All Glock."

Luckily though, our political masters in Washington aren't so laconic and these days almost invariably hold press conferences after SOF successes, such as the one involving ISIS' head of finance last week. In that conference they managed to thoughtfully brag about the guy's electronic gear that they now claim to have. They haven't thought about the product tie in angle, yet, though we probably just need to give them time.

[GJM]

Should have said "several". My bad. I blame GJM for trolling me into a Glock thread and I know better.

Hey, I waited "until page 5," before popping a picture of an HK into the thread. I thought anything goes once a thread reaches five pages. :)

[LSP972]

I find that the semi circular shape at the rear of the magwell tends to mess up my reloads if I'm not careful. The grip plug effectively eliminates that problem.

Interesting. That's the first explanation I've heard that makes sense… for non-military users. A soldier/marine carrying one in a drop-leg rig certainly could get it jammed full of mud/etc. But I carried either a G17 or G35, sans plug, in that sort of arrangement for a long time on SWAT- not to mention a G19 on my belt when not "operating" :cool: -, and I certainly never had any issues with dirt/crud accumulation over those many years.

Of course, I wasn't a member of the "I'll clean my gun once a year, whether it needs it or not!" club, either…

.

[LSP972]

This is what you H&K users always say, never once considering the Americans who are kept employed manufacturing the match barrels, machined extractors and HRED's that get added to Glocks. Because a big part of perfection is providing jobs to those who get your pistols running right.

Careful, there… you're going to get your tongue stuck in your cheek…;)

.

[Chuck Haggard]

Interesting. That's the first explanation I've heard that makes sense… for non-military users. A soldier/marine carrying one in a drop-leg rig certainly could get it jammed full of mud/etc. But I carried either a G17 or G35, sans plug, in that sort of arrangement for a long time on SWAT- not to mention a G19 on my belt when not "operating" :cool: -, and I certainly never had any issues with dirt/crud accumulation over those many years.

Of course, I wasn't a member of the "I'll clean my gun once a year, whether it needs it or not!" club, either…

.

In addition to the "it's like a mag well" thing, I have seen three G17s choked by debris down that space, two were being worn by our fire investigators, one by a troop of mine who attended a class where they did some drawing from the holster on a sandy range from prone, supine,etc.

[Chuck Haggard]

My question can this pistol be used with a Safariland level 2 holster or are they using a LBT holster if run on a duty rig like the HK45c holster that lbt made for NSW.


Check out Doc's post again, look at pictures;
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator


There are enough guns like this in the wild that Safariland built a holster just for it.

[LittleLebowski]

Interesting. That's the first explanation I've heard that makes sense… for non-military users. A soldier/marine carrying one in a drop-leg rig certainly could get it jammed full of mud/etc. But I carried either a G17 or G35, sans plug, in that sort of arrangement for a long time on SWAT- not to mention a G19 on my belt when not "operating" :cool: -, and I certainly never had any issues with dirt/crud accumulation over those many years.
It really does help reloads, i need to find one that works with my Gen4 G17 large backstop.


Of course, I wasn't a member of the "I'll clean my gun once a year, whether it needs it or not!" club, either…


I can sponsor your membership, we have a great chili cook off :D

[Dagga Boy]

Of course, I wasn't a member of the "I'll clean my gun once a year, whether it needs it or not!" club, either…

.

Wait....you're supposed to clean them...:confused:.

[ffhounddog]

Check out Doc's post again, look at pictures;
https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator


There are enough guns like this in the wild that Safariland built a holster just for it.

Thanks Chuck!

[Lester Polfus]

I've been sticking with the same ratty ass pair of Gen 3 G19's with no finish and skateboard tape for years. Every time something new comes along, I've considered changing, but once I really think about it, realize that I probably won't shoot better with something new, and just buy ammo instead.

This, though, might be the next thing for me. Particularly as my eyes age.

[nycnoob]

There are enough guns like this in the wild that Safariland built a holster just for it.


I read his statement that the gun will fit into existing safariland holsters:


The G19 with KKM compensator is the same size as the previously used G34's and fit into standard G34 holsters, including the excellent Safariland ALS 6354DO.

[RevolverRob]

I get that The Roland is probably the best answer to the particular problem.

However, when I hear about real life ninjas using this stuff I can't help but wonder: how is the reliability of the gun effected? It's a mix of parts, significantly effecting many major functions (trigger, barrel, slide weight,...) that can't possibly have the sort of large agency testing that a lot of people around here currently or used to promote as the acceptability standard for a real-use handgun. Also, does it affect parts replacement cycles? Sounds like lots of variables and very little data, which strikes me as the antithesis of what a real life ninja would want in a weapon.

It reminds me of the legend about the group who chased after lighter and lighter Glock triggers until they created the "- ." connector which ultimately had to be abandoned for reliable issues...

Well, there are a couple of things to bear in mind. If you want more performance, you spend more money and do more maintenance. A lot of folks, myself included, recognize the utility of a gun that is serviced at the institutional level, being reliable, accurate enough, and useful enough for the few hundred/thousand hands that might come into contact with it. Glock, M&P, Sig P-series, etc. They all fit that well. And for the vast majority of people and situations those standards are excellent starting standards. In most instances they are pretty good overall. But more performance comes with a trade-off, no matter what you do.

There is only one sure-fire way to build something that performs at a high standard and is reliable...start from scratch. And even then you don't usually get there.

So in this case, you have to assume the responsibility necessary, to maintain a piece of equipment that is riding the line.


What cracks me up is a lot of this gun is really a mesh between the sport shooting world melded to shoot terrorists and other cancers of the world and folks on this forum don't get it.

Like Tom, I'm not sure folks don't get it. But I like it, then again, I always have. If you look at the history of high-grade shooting, a lot of it...like the vast majority of it, done to bad men by good men, was done with a weapon that probably not only was customized, but was used for competition. But that's been the individual case. The exceptions to that is some of the FBI HRT stuff, at least early on, competition level double-stack 1911s and Hi-Powers. But eventually, they went with high-end hand-built 1911s for reliability and accuracy. Over and over again we find the same modifications, just in different platforms, at unit levels.

For instance, on a personal level, I've never quite understood the dislike of adjustable sights on defensive handguns. Sure, they can have sharp edges, dehorn them. But otherwise, why not have a gun that hits exactly where you want with your load of choice, but has adaptability to change if you can't get that load of choice (seems relevant given that the ammunition "rush" has been over for nearly two years and I still can't get .357 Magnum Silvertip). You also often get bigger sights with better choices overall. Sure they can become misaligned. On a personal level, I can check my sights regularly and confirm they haven't become misaligned or otherwise disturbed. At the unit level, I get it. Cops and soldiers aren't exactly known for quality care and treatment of equipment.


This is what you H&K users always say, never once considering the Americans who are kept employed manufacturing the match barrels, machined extractors and HRED's that get added to Glocks. Because a big part of perfection is providing jobs to those who get your pistols running right.

If HK would finish moving here, then this will cease to be a necessary consideration. They can employ Americans to manufacture match barrels, and machined extractors to replace Glocks, by fitting them into HKs.

-Rob

[HCM]

No base of knowledge,
Price of admission is a bit steep I guess: Here is my hack list of prices...

Blue Label G19 Stock Sights - 398.00
RMR 06 - 557.00
ATEI Milling - 160
Suppressor Sights - 55
Enhanced Slide Serrations front and rear - 135
Slide refinishing - 90
dissassemble slide - 20
Glock Grip Package - 210
X300u - 209
minus connector - 24.95
Gen3 trigger bar - 15.00
HRED - 19.95
APEX fre - 56.95
KKM threaded barrel w/compensator- 285.00 (kkm web site)

Grand total of roughly $2,236.00 sans shipping.

I totally get it though. Price isn't an object and as Marshal Haggard and others have stated repeatedly, Mission drives gear.

Now to figure out where to play with one and then decide whether or not to develop a PSYOP campaign to convince the wife it was her idea...

You could shave a bit off that cost or do it in stages - PS member Justintime is building one in stages. Trigger and mag well, then had the grip work done. Just installed the KKM barrel and comp. The RMR will be last.


G&R tactical has LE/ MIL pricing on the RMR 06 - e mail them. You could start with blue label G19 MOS $477 - Dawson makes MOS compatible back up sights.

[HCM]

This, though, might be the next thing for me. Particularly as my eyes age.

This ^^^ Is what had me looking at MOS models and Unity ATOM slides. I like the idea of the red dot but not necessarily being tied to just the RMR.

[Lester Polfus]

This ^^^ Is what had me looking at MOS models and Unity ATOM slides. I like the idea of the red dot but not necessarily being tied to just the RMR.

That was my thought too. I've been watching this whole "optic on the slide of a Glock" thing for years, waiting for the dust to settle. It looks like the RMR is the current winner, but optics advance quicker than guns.

I've always been concerned about reliability but if the group of incredibly physically fit computer programmers from Fort Bragg who shoot pistols as a hobby have deemed the electronic sights good to go, I'm unlikely to do anything in my life that will break them.

[HCM]

They could be running cap-and-ball Colts for all we know.

Okie John

The solid frame Remington cap and ball revolvers are much easier to mount an RMR on. :-)

[OnionsAndDragons]

This ^^^ Is what had me looking at MOS models and Unity ATOM slides. I like the idea of the red dot but not necessarily being tied to just the RMR.

This is exactly my predicament. I don't like the RMR all that much. My eyes like circles.

A Unity slide is on the standing "these are the sweet gifts I would like for special occasions list" that the lady has. One day it's number will come up. Or UT will figure out how to put one on an HK and I'll send three slides to Mark the next day. :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HCM]

I get that The Roland is probably the best answer to the particular problem.

However, when I hear about real life ninjas using this stuff I can't help but wonder: how is the reliability of the gun effected? It's a mix of parts, significantly effecting many major functions (trigger, barrel, slide weight,...) that can't possibly have the sort of large agency testing that a lot of people around here currently or used to promote as the acceptability standard for a real-use handgun. Also, does it affect parts replacement cycles? Sounds like lots of variables and very little data, which strikes me as the antithesis of what a real life ninja would want in a weapon.

It reminds me of the legend about the group who chased after lighter and lighter Glock triggers until they created the "- ." connector which ultimately had to be abandoned for reliable issues...

Okie John addressed this but just to add, these units have groups which do nothing but research and test gear. Those doing so are normally experienced guys on "injured reserve" . They have both the real world experience and the budget and other resources to wring stuff out thoroughly. Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of thumbs down and dead ends.

[okie john]

For instance, on a personal level, I've never quite understood the dislike of adjustable sights on defensive handguns. Sure, they can have sharp edges, dehorn them. But otherwise, why not have a gun that hits exactly where you want with your load of choice, but has adaptability to change if you can't get that load of choice (seems relevant given that the ammunition "rush" has been over for nearly two years and I still can't get .357 Magnum Silvertip). You also often get bigger sights with better choices overall. Sure they can become misaligned. On a personal level, I can check my sights regularly and confirm they haven't become misaligned or otherwise disturbed. At the unit level, I get it. Cops and soldiers aren't exactly known for quality care and treatment of equipment.

Preach, brother.

Once the combination of shooter and pistol become able to place shots in exact spots, you really can't get along without adjustables. And a red-dot sight is truly an adjustable sight, along with its many other advantages.


Okie John

[JohnN]

It really does help reloads, i need to find one that works with my Gen4 G17 large backstop.

You might contact ALG Defense, they make the Supersonic to accommodate different size backstraps.
https://pistol-forum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=6798&stc=1

[Kevin B.]

Preach, brother.

Once the combination of shooter and pistol become able to place shots in exact spots, you really can't get along without adjustables. And a red-dot sight is truly an adjustable sight, along with its many other advantages.


Okie John

Adjustable sights on a service pistol? Crazy...

6799

[Appalachained]

Delete

[Lester Polfus]

A couple of years ago, Glocks with slides cut for optical sights were special guns for special people, now they are coming stock from Glock. I'm wondering as the "Roland Special" makes its way through internet fandom, if they will eventually make a package similar to this from the factory. I'd be happy with a stock barrel extended and threaded for a comp, and the MOS cut. That wouldn't be quite as special as the full boat custom, but it would probably be enough for me.

If this solves the problems caused by prematurely aging eyes, caused by accommodation issues due to a TBI it's worth the money. It gets steep when I start thinking about buying two G19's set up this way, and likely a G20 as well.

I need to get my mitts on one long enough to see how big a difference it makes on the timer and on paper, particularly in reduced light, where I have the most trouble.

[okie john]

Adjustable sights on a service pistol? Crazy...

6799

Heresy...

I just inventoried all of my serious pistols and realized that all but one of them have adjustable sights.


Okie John

[SLG]

there is much I would like to say on this topic but simply will not. I do pretty much agree with what Nyeti wrote though, and will expand on it a bit later. Kind of busy right now.

As far as adjustable sights, they do not appear on serious guns for a variety of reasons, institutional ones have already been mentioned. One of the biggest reasons though is because they don't hold up like fixed sights do. They simply break fairly often when subjected to high round count training. When your gun will go 50-100,000 rds before failure (subjective, no doubt), it gets old replacing sights every 5-10,000 rds. That starts to look like once a month for many people, btw. Not worth it. I have also never really had a problem getting fixed irons to regulate properly, especially when you keep the goal in mind, and not some accuracy fantasy (as I have been guilty of many times).

[okie john]

there is much I would like to say on this topic but simply will not. I do pretty much agree with what Nyeti wrote though, and will expand on it a bit later. Kind of busy right now.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.


Okie John

[nycnoob]

I have also never really had a problem getting fixed irons to regulate properly, especially when you keep the goal in mind, and not some accuracy fantasy (as I have been guilty of many times).


If you could expand on this sentence I would appreciate it. Sounds like you have an interesting real world perspective / useful model for this.

[LSP972]

In addition to the "it's like a mag well" thing, I have seen three G17s choked by debris down that space, two were being worn by our fire investigators, one by a troop of mine who attended a class where they did some drawing from the holster on a sandy range from prone, supine,etc.

Well, all I can say is, over the years I've seen enough Glocks (many hundreds) used by all sorts of po-lice; square range, shoot house, and "tactical" (dirty) stuff; and have never seen any of that. Not doubting you, but I simply don't think it is a compelling issue for non-military people.

OTOH, it does minimize, a bit, one's ability to strip a magazine out if needed. Allegedly, that hole is there for one's thumb, to get some leverage. Recall that the first Glock magazines were designed to hold themselves in place and needed to be manually (and somewhat forcefully) withdrawn when empty. Supposedly this was a design parameter called for by the Austrian army, who issued ONE magazine per pistol, and didn't want their troops littering the landscape with empty mags, so to speak. 'Muricans, of course, called BS on that, and so the metal-lined, drop-free Glock magazine was born. Remember the half-moon cut-out at the bottom of the front strap on Gen 1 and Gen 2 pistols? For the forefinger to grasp the mag. That's the way Manny Kapelsohn (sp?) explained it to me, and at that time (1990) he was one of the top three Glock "experts" in the US.

Anyway, not throwing any rocks here, I just have always found the dirt-in-the-hole-is-evil argument a bit… less than convincing. Again, not doubting what you have seen; I have never thought it couldn't happen.

.

[LSP972]

I can sponsor your membership, we have a great chili cook off :D

Hey, cool! That will put me one step closer to being able to operate operationally, in an operational environment.

Sign me up!

.

[SLG]

A glock without a butt plug will not pass a sand test. Pretty much end of story. All of my duty glocks get plugs because of that. The fact that they help reloads a tiny drop is just a bonus afaic. Seeing as how I've carried Glocks in some of the worst environments on earth, I'm kind of a fan of the idea.

[SLG]

If you could expand on this sentence I would appreciate it. Sounds like you have an interesting real world perspective / useful model for this.

Probably not much to add. I simply make sure that the chosen load hits POA/POI at whatever distance I want, and then I leave it alone. Truthfully, I don't really care if it's dead on at 25, 1" high, 2" high, dead on at 50, whatever. As long as it is close to one of those, I can make it work. You just need to swap front and rear sights as required to get it where you want it. My guns have never needed more than a single replacement, since the manufacturers that I've used provide a guide for how much a given sight will alter POI.

As far as fantasy accuracy, I just need to be able to hit a 4" circle out to 25 yards or so. It's when you start demanding more than that that things can start to get wonky. One reason I love Sigs is that they will do way better than that, and still be super reliable. My duty 1911 is a 2" gun at 50. I'd rather have a Sig.

The other thing is the type of sights people put on their gun. Kind of back to the point Nyeti was making. If you are being paid to shoot a certain score on a 700 point aggregate, you want certain things on your gun to help you do that. For me, that means .110-.115 front sights are preferable. Others will go all black. Still others will put an MRDS on their gun. It all depends what is important to you. My Glocks wear standard issued Trijicon sights. Not ideal, yet I still seem to make them work just fine. It all depends what you want to get out of them.

[okie john]

Thanks.


Okie John

[JSGlock34]

The adjustable sight discussion is interesting to me considering the heritage of the Roland. The Vickers 1911 book shows the evolution of 1911 pistols used by his former unit - interestingly the last iterations before that model was retired from service had adjustable Bomar sights. The sights were mounted somewhat forward and were not flush with the rear of the slide, ostensibly to provide some protection.

[GJM]

The adjustable sight discussion is interesting to me considering the heritage of the Roland. The Vickers 1911 book shows the evolution of 1911 pistols used by his former unit - interestingly the last iterations before that model was retired from service had adjustable Bomar sights. The sights were mounted somewhat forward and were not flush with the rear of the slide, ostensibly to provide some protection.

Think the Tiger Swan Glock used a Wilson barrel and Dawson adjustable rear sight:


http://soldiersystems.net/tag/tigerswan/

Seems like the devil is in the details of adjustable sights. My S&W N frame adjustable rear sights have taken a ton of pounding with heavy loads. Same with my Ruger Blackhawk adjustable rear. Yet, I managed to break off the windage elevation knob installing my wife's Dawson Glock rear with the MGW Pro tool, and unlike the first two, it seems less robust.

[Chuck Haggard]

In personal conversation with the actual Roland he noted that his previous pistols had Dawsons on them, and he recommended them highly.

[Chuck Haggard]

I read his statement that the gun will fit into existing safariland holsters:

The the holster in question will fit either a G34 or 35 with an optic or a G19 with an optic and comp is what it is.

[SLG]

Think the Tiger Swan Glock used a Wilson barrel and Dawson adjustable rear sight:


http://soldiersystems.net/tag/tigerswan/

Seems like the devil is in the details of adjustable sights. My S&W N frame adjustable rear sights have taken a ton of pounding with heavy loads. Same with my Ruger Blackhawk adjustable rear. Yet, I managed to break off the windage elevation knob installing my wife's Dawson Glock rear with the MGW Pro tool, and unlike the first two, it seems less robust.

Auto sights are very different than revolver sights, in the way that forces are applied to them. Apples to Oranges.

[LSP972]

Auto sights are very different than revolver sights, in the way that forces are applied to them. Apples to Oranges.


Yes. WAY back in the day, installing K-frame rear sights on 1911 slides was the shiz-nit; and at first, everybody doing it used the issue tiny front screw to secure the leaf to the slide channel. Of course, the pounding it received due to slide movement sheared them off in fairly short order; I had two replaced on my Eversull Custom before he used one big enough to withstand the recoil.

.

[GRV]

One of the biggest reasons though is because they don't hold up like fixed sights do. They simply break fairly often when subjected to high round count training. When your gun will go 50-100,000 rds before failure (subjective, no doubt), it gets old replacing sights every 5-10,000 rds. That starts to look like once a month for many people, btw. Not worth it.

Are you saying that they break from just repeated high volume recoil? Or are they breaking due to other physical abuse involved in team training?

[Kevin B.]

Are you saying that they break from just repeated high volume recoil? Or are they breaking due to other physical abuse involved in team training?

Not SLG, but the Dawson adjustable sights on my Glock saw 1200-1500 rounds per week on average for several months without any issue. Several other people with Dawson-equipped Glocks shot significantly more than I did and I do not recall them having any issues with the sights.

Likewise, my Dawson sights saw a fair amount of operational use and were no worse for wear. Again, others had substantially more time carrying/using them operationally and I am unaware of any issues with breakage. The holster protects the sight very well.

That is not to say there were not issues but if they had been breaking at the rate suggested, I most certainly would have experienced it or, at the very least, heard about it. Of course my sample size is relatively small and limited to Dawson adjustable sights on Glocks.

[GJM]

I see GoFundMe has raised over $2 billion for personal causes. Nope, I am not going to start a GoFundMe account for others to buy me a KKM barrel/comp, but maybe we need a PF GoFundMe account to buy a Roland top end that we can pass around between members to test the concept.

[Lester Polfus]

Regarding the butt plug, here in the Cascades at higher elevation the substrate is often volcanic ash that is thousands of years old. To call this stuff "dust" would be doing it a disservice. It's so fine you can't really make out individual particles. This stuff is really abrasive, and will eventually shred fabric in packs and such, as it causes little micro abrasions in the fibers.

I carried a Glock for years in suburban, rural, and wilderness environments without anything creeping into the hole in the butt, and thought the various plugs were an affectation. However after a week of hiking on the PCT, I had enough dust in the innards of the gun to make for a grittier, heavier trigger pull, despite having a properly lubricated cruciform. The gun still worked, but I'm guessing after continued exposure it would have tied up. A close inspection with a flashlight showed plenty of material in the back strap channel.

I've also had folks tell me that operating an ATV or motorcycle on dusty roads will get enough dust in there to be an issue, and helos have a great ability to drive sand and grit into all sorts of places too.

I don't think the butt plug is strictly necessary for most environments, but I no longer discount them either.

[SLG]

As Lester noted, there are plenty of non military environments where the plug can matter. Simple insurance. Occasionally they break and fall out. I then put a new one in. Afghanistan is much like the ash described above, it's just that it has a high concentration of fecal matter in it as well.

As for adjustable sights, I have no experience with the Dawson's or many other recent additions. Bomar's were famous for breaking, The Wilson copies were even worse for a long time, though I'm told they have improved them. Don't know for sure. In addition, I've broken or seen broken, MMC, Glock (duh), and one or two others I forget right now. A sample (or 10) may work well on the firing schedule for some people. I've never seen a sight that was tested in quantity, pass. We tried a few times, with no luck, but not any that I know of in the last 5 years, so maybe they are all better now.

In competition, I have seen and been told of many failing during a course of fire. I'm checking now with a couple of champions to hear the latest from them.

All of this has to do with just shooting the gun. When you start dropping it and banging it into things, the situation gets worse. I don't consider fixed sights to be rugged enough, so you can see why I discount adjustables. I've seen blades break and whole sights shear off from drops.

Ultimately, there is no performance benefit to having adjustable sights, only convenience. Not worth anything to me.

[Clobbersaurus]

I don't consider fixed sights to be rugged enough,....

Have you ever seen the front sight break off of a Beretta M9? I've been curious about this for a while and if anyone has witnessed this I'm guessing you have. Sorry in advance for the minor thread drift.

[JonInWA]

I also was originally in the school of thought that considered a Glock butt plug to be an aftermarket affectation of limited real utility. In speaking with some sources in Glock, they felt that the backstrap cavity was deliberately designed to allow snow/ice/condensate a drain point-the Glock, after all, was designed for the Austrian Army, where there's plenty of frozen precipitate and such, and other "early adapters" were similarly the Norwegian and Swedish militarys.

Conversely, I can also easily believe that the cavity was simply a feature to expedite the mold(s) used and/or the injection of the polymer in the production process...

Speed forward to Larry Vickers' infamous sand test, where it was clear that if sand was introduced into the cavity with some force, it would indeed jam up the gun. While LAV's test wasn't exactly a paragon of scientific procedure, and his sidebar comments somewhat obscured the validity of the test (along with the probability that he was using an early G21 when later production G21s available at the time of the test might well have fared a bit better, particularly regarding his sidebar comments, which cast aspersions applicable to earlier guns {specifically on their extractors as I recall, which Glock had in fact by that time modified} rather than the contemporary ones at the time of the test), the man had a point.

Similarly, a field-expedient butt plug related to me by a highly regarded and "positioned to know" Glock executive was to stuff some masking or 100 MPH duct tape in the cavity, and then seal it with the ubiquitous 100 MPH/duct tape-this worked well in SW Asia against fine particulate dust and dirt, particularly if the gun was exposed to it in a high-velocity format (such as rotor wash, or a sandstorm). So there is in fact a real-world need for sealing the cavity, at least in some environments or conditions-as has been related by other knowledgeable participants in this thread. And a specifically purposed manufactured fitting plug is probably a better means of accomplishing this, in my opinion.

My position now is that I have one in my kit. Since I'm in the Pacific NW, I normally don't need it. But if I were to go hiking in a volcanic ash/particulate environment, or I was uncertain as to what environmental conditions I'd be facing, I'll likely have it on hand. Actually, this thread is a great reminder-since I'll likely be taking my G21 on a hunting trip in the fire-ravaged Okanogan this fall, it makes sense for me to install it prior to the trip (especially since the G21 will likely be carried in an external thigh tactical holster, and by definition more exposed to the elements).

While I can see how it might be of some assistance to reloading, I've never experienced any reloading issues with any of my Glocks without one. So personally I don't perceive it being a necessary piece of kit for that purpose alone.

Best, Jon

[Mr_White]

"Full House Custom Race Gun"

Looks like it's just missing the optic and the magwell!

I think the relationship between gear used in competitive shooting and duty/defensive shooting is very interesting, as is where different people draw the line in different places and times.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1467/25845003690_1b2cb0aa3b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FnQpaU)Full House Race Gun (https://flic.kr/p/FnQpaU) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1442/26091967636_801808819a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FKE9WY)Full House Race Gun 2 (https://flic.kr/p/FKE9WY) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

[BillSWPA]

"Full House Custom Race Gun"

Looks like it's just missing the optic and the magwell!

I think the relationship between gear used in competitive shooting and duty/defensive shooting is very interesting, as is where different people draw the line in different places and times.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1467/25845003690_1b2cb0aa3b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FnQpaU)Full House Race Gun (https://flic.kr/p/FnQpaU) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1442/26091967636_801808819a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FKE9WY)Full House Race Gun 2 (https://flic.kr/p/FKE9WY) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

For me, the biggest difference is whether I can put it in an inside the waistband holster and carry it concealed all day. If not, then it doesn't solve at least 85% of my potential problems. Also, competition gear can be selected to work in a narrower variety of circumstances. All black sights would be great for competitions that are likely to take place in daylight, but not su much for defensive uses that are more likely to occur in low light. A holster that sticks out multiple inches from my hip might be great in competition but won't hide well under my sweater vest.

With the difference defined this way, the difference between competition gear and defensive gear does appear to be narrowing. I have never had much desire for an open-class IPSC gun, preferring instead to devote my shooting time to honing my skills drawing an iron-sighted gun from a concealment holster. However, the idea of a Glock 19 equipped as described in this thread, particularly a much simpler, less expensive version starting with a largely unmodified MOS model, KKM barrel and compensator, and Trijicon optic is becoming appealing.

[LSP972]

A glock without a butt plug will not pass a sand test. Pretty much end of story. All of my duty glocks get plugs because of that. The fact that they help reloads a tiny drop is just a bonus afaic. Seeing as how I've carried Glocks in some of the worst environments on earth, I'm kind of a fan of the idea.

I hear you. I've been to a bunch of bad climates OCONUS myself… but Glocks weren't even a gleam in Gaston's eye at the time.

Since we're fresh out of sand and volcanic ash down here in the sub-tropics, I'll stick to my opinion. I appreciate the details, though.

.

[GJM]

Maybe you should check your couch cushions first. There's good chance you already have one.

True story. Some years ago, I did find a lost pistol in the cushions of a sofa. However, I hadn't misplaced it, it was an HK45, and it was Bill Springfield's sofa.

[Hambo]

The solid frame Remington cap and ball revolvers are much easier to mount an RMR on. :-)

Mount an RMR on the flats of a Navy Colt barrel and it never changes zero when you take it apart to clean it.

[BillSWPA]

For those of you who like the plug, how do you keep it from working its way out during shooting? I tried one in my G26, only to have it work its way out in something far less than 100 rounds.

[GJM]

For those of you who like the plug, how do you keep it from working its way out during shooting? I tried one in my G26, only to have it work its way out in something far less than 100 rounds.

The G26 plugs fall out constantly, as they don't latch into the hole that the 17/19 plugs interface with. I just keep pushing the 26 plugs bacon, and occasionally find them on the ground while shooting.

[Mr_White]

The G26 plugs fall out constantly, as they don't latch into the hole that the 17/19 plugs interface with. I just keep pushing the 26 plugs bacon, and occasionally find them on the ground while shooting.

I shove bacon into my Glocks' grip hole all the time too. Once the bacon falls on the ground I don't eat it though.

[Lester Polfus]

I shove bacon into my Glocks' grip hole all the time too.

Have you tried affixing it with Blue Lactate?

[Mr_White]

Have you tried affixing it with Blue Lactate?

I use Red Lactate, much stickier than Blue.

[GJM]

FIFY


I shove my bacon into my Glocks' grip hole all the time too.

[GJM]

The G26 plugs fall out constantly, as they don't latch into the hole that the 17/19 plugs interface with. I just keep pushing the 26 plugs bacon, and occasionally find them on the ground while shooting.

Spell checker is killing me this week. First, YVK, cleans up with the lactate, and now you are bragging about your bacon.

[okie john]

Mount an RMR on the flats of a Navy Colt barrel and it never changes zero when you take it apart to clean it.

I have no doubt that someone will do that.


Okie John

[TCinVA]

"Full House Custom Race Gun"

Looks like it's just missing the optic and the magwell!

I think the relationship between gear used in competitive shooting and duty/defensive shooting is very interesting, as is where different people draw the line in different places and times.

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1467/25845003690_1b2cb0aa3b_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FnQpaU)Full House Race Gun (https://flic.kr/p/FnQpaU) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr
https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1442/26091967636_801808819a_z.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FKE9WY)Full House Race Gun 2 (https://flic.kr/p/FKE9WY) by OrigamiAK (https://www.flickr.com/photos/52790396@N08/), on Flickr

I have an irrational desire for a single stack compensated old-school racegun.

Too many American Handgunner magazines when I was a kid...around about the same time Lenny there was making that video.

[Mr_White]

FIFY

That's sick and I don't have time for this foolishness, I have to go attach an optic to a slide. But I should expect as much from someone using lactate to attach optics. Which color should I use again so it doesn't fall off?

[Mr_White]

I have an irrational desire for a single stack compensated old-school racegun.

Too many American Handgunner magazines when I was a kid...around about the same time Lenny there was making that video.

Oh man my brain is full of 80s after watching that video. Those guys had some tall trucker hats. And a lot of leather basketweave gear.

Anyway, I think it's kind of neat too. It was cool to see the 'full house race gun' of the day, that's so different from today, but still very related. The equipment sensibilities of different times, places, and tasks are very interesting.

[Lester Polfus]

Used to sneak American Handgunner into school and admire Ichiro Nagata's fine photography. If a kid did that now, somebody would probably call the cops.

That magazine was responsible for me owning several two tone 1911's, both with and without comps.

[JAD]

I have a 9mm Springfield RO that could stand a comp.

Ironically I took gunsite 250 in 1997 with a comped Glock 19.

[Dagga Boy]

Used to sneak American Handgunner into school and admire Ichiro Nagata's fine photography. If a kid did that now, somebody would probably call the cops.

That magazine was responsible for me owning several two tone 1911's, both with and without comps.

I hi was my primary photographer for a lot of years. Watching how those covers were actually shot in the pre digital era showcased how good Ichi is. His photos were responsible for a lot of fun and knife lust for many of us.

[LOKNLOD]

The G26 plugs fall out constantly, as they don't latch into the hole that the 17/19 plugs interface with. I just keep pushing the 26 plugs bacon, and occasionally find them on the ground while shooting.

I lost a G26 plug when it bounced out and went down range beyond reach at the busy indoor range the other day. Oops.

[Mr_White]

I lost a G26 plug when it bounced out and went down range beyond reach at the busy indoor range the other day. Oops.

Shove the bacon back in and use enough lactate this time

[LOKNLOD]

Shove the bacon back in and use enough lactate this time

That's sausage advice.

[serialsolver]

But will the Roland fit in a pancake holster?


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[HCM]

But will the Roland fit in a pancake holster?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It depends on the holster. It's G34 length so it depends on whether the optic clears the particular holster.

[JR1572]

I'd really like to get one, but I'm not too interested in dumping $2K plus in a pistol that my employer will not allow me to carry on or off duty.

JR1572

[HCM]

I'd really like to get one, but I'm not too interested in dumping $2K plus in a pistol that my employer will not allow me to carry on or off duty.

JR1572

I could carry it off duty on a LTC but most likely it would be a range toy like a 1911 or non J frame revolver.

However, the optic and to a lesser extent the comp interest me for a retirement gun. Everyone thinks their ass is going to age like fine wine but fading eye sight, grip strength and osteoarthritis may make this a much more attractive package. It'll fit in a fanny pack ......;)

6844

[Lester Polfus]

But will the Roland fit in a pancake holster?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

It will but there is no room for the bacon.

[BJJ]

In personal conversation with the actual Roland he noted that his previous pistols had Dawsons on them, and he recommended them highly.


What did he like for a front sight? Curious if he was using fiber optic or tritium.

[Trajan]

When compared to a long slide pistol such as a Glock 34 or Government Model 1911, compact pistols like the Glock 19 are easier to shoot rapidly with a red dot sight because there is less slide travel, which equates to faster follow-up shots
I can't believe no one commented on this derp.


Seems like the devil is in the details of adjustable sights. My S&W N frame adjustable rear sights have taken a ton of pounding with heavy loads. Same with my Ruger Blackhawk adjustable rear. Yet, I managed to break off the windage elevation knob installing my wife's Dawson Glock rear with the MGW Pro tool, and unlike the first two, it seems less robust.

I've seen one broken off when the installer hit that screw head with a steel punch as well. Dawson has a great video explaining the install. You can't use a pusher with them. Gotta go old school.

Regarding plugs, I've had them trap a broken off rim from a well used Azoom snap cap. For my uses, I can see them being neutral. Keeps things out, keeps things in as well. That channel is for debris to come out. No appreciable difference in the reload. My carry gun doesn't have one, my comp gun does.

Roland set ups solve the downfall of the slide mounted MRDS IMO. I dig em. Not yet ready to ditch the Dawson's yet though.

[Jeep]

I have no doubt that someone will do that.


Okie John

Next someone will figure out how to put a compensator on it and you'll have an "Okie John Special." Used by discerning operators who want to startle the opposition with a huge black powder flash and cloud of smoke everywhere.

[HCM]

Next someone will figure out how to put a compensator on it and you'll have an "Okie John Special." Used by discerning operators who want to startle the opposition with a huge black powder flash and cloud of smoke everywhere.

What could be more Operator than an RDS pistol and Distraction device rolled into one?

[Chuck Haggard]

What did he like for a front sight? Curious if he was using fiber optic or tritium.

Fiber optic.

[Chuck Haggard]

I can't believe no one commented on this derp.



Not sure what you meant by that.

[LOKNLOD]

Not sure what you meant by that.

I think referring to a clear lack of understanding, since the slide of the 19 travels the same distance rearward as a 17 or 34.

[Lon]

I love the concept. I tried a comped gen 2 19 a few years ago with a MRDS milled in. Couldn't get it to run 100% with factory ammo.

Every time I hear people talk about Roland, this comes to mind:


http://youtu.be/TAGAAa1L-tU

[EMC]

I love the concept. I tried a comped gen 2 19 a few years ago with a MRDS milled in. Couldn't get it to run 100% with factory ammo.

Every time I hear people talk about Roland, this comes to mind:


http://youtu.be/TAGAAa1L-tU
Catchy tune!

[JJN]

I love the concept. I tried a comped gen 2 19 a few years ago with a MRDS milled in. Couldn't get it to run 100% with factory ammo.

Every time I hear people talk about Roland, this comes to mind:


http://youtu.be/TAGAAa1L-tU


The late Paul Gomez turned me on to Warren Zevon.

[Chuck Haggard]

I think referring to a clear lack of understanding, since the slide of the 19 travels the same distance rearward as a 17 or 34.

Yeah, pretty sure that was meant to address less mass, but you are correct in your observation.

[Chuck Haggard]

Catchy tune!

That and "Lawyers, Guns and Money" are pretty bad ass.

[Trajan]

I think referring to a clear lack of understanding, since the slide of the 19 travels the same distance rearward as a 17 or 34.

Yep.


I love the concept. I tried a comped gen 2 19 a few years ago with a MRDS milled in. Couldn't get it to run 100% with factory ammo.

I tried a comped G19 with no rmr and it was failing pretty bad with AE 124gr or Magtech 124 (can't remember which one), but that was a lone wolf barrel and comp. I only tried one mag, the FTEs got annoying. Maybe the KKM is special sauce?


Yeah, pretty sure that was meant to address less mass, but you are correct in your observation.

Thing is, I'm not really sure that's even accurate. I just weighed a gen 3 G19 and gen 3 G34 both with plastic sights, field stripped, 34 had the plastic adjustables:

G19 slide: 12.3oz
G34 slide: 12.9 oz

Does .6oz make that big of a difference? I know a G19 feels faster (but no difference on the timer on hoser targets), but my theory for that is just like extended sight radius helps you get more precise shots, it also magnifies any amount of muzzle movement so you think the gun is moving more than it really is.

[Nephrology]

edit: I can't read very well.

[GJM]

Yep.



I tried a comped G19 with no rmr and it was failing pretty bad with AE 124gr or Magtech 124 (can't remember which one), but that was a lone wolf barrel and comp. I only tried one mag, the FTEs got annoying. Maybe the KKM is special sauce?



Thing is, I'm not really sure that's even accurate. I just weighed a gen 3 G19 and gen 3 G34 both with plastic sights, field stripped, 34 had the plastic adjustables:

G19 slide: 12.3oz
G34 slide: 12.9 oz

Does .6oz make that big of a difference? I know a G19 feels faster (but no difference on the timer on hoser targets), but my theory for that is just like extended sight radius helps you get more precise shots, it also magnifies any amount of muzzle movement so you think the gun is moving more than it really is.

Gary Roberts reported multiple shooters reported the dot tracked flatter with a 19 than on longer slides. I haven't tried the 34, but the 19 MOS tracks flatter for me than a MOS 17.

[Luke]

Maybe it's a leverage issue. Same weight, but the weight being farther out front may make it act funn

[SLG]

I am way out of my lane here, so bear that in mind. I believe that even a .6 of ounce difference is meaningful to firearms engineers, in terms of making a gun run properly. Seems minor to me, but I've had people at Sig tell me so. If that .6 is actually meaningful, and not just measuring noise, then I suppose that the G19 slide would return to battery a little faster. Which is waht various people report as an advantage of the shorter guns. Of course, back in the day people felt that though you gave up precision, a 2" revolver returned to target faster than a 4", so maybe it is something similar at work.

For me, I can't tell the difference in shootability between a 19/17/34, with or without an RMR, so I guess my opinion on it is pretty meaningless. They all shoot just as fast and just as accurately for me, irons or optics. I know others feel differently though.

[Trajan]

Gary Roberts reported multiple shooters reported the dot tracked flatter with a 19 than on longer slides. I haven't tried the 34, but the 19 MOS tracks flatter for me than a MOS 17.

I forgot about your thread. Just looked it over again. That's really weird. Now I'm really curious....

For shits and giggles I weighed a new, unfitted Dawson adjustable rear out of the package. It weighs .6 ounces...

[GJM]

With iron sights, you have an advantage with longer sight radius, perhaps working against any advantage with the shorter slide. The RDS removes the advantage of sight radius. The red dot is also very easy to track, perhaps magnifying small differences between different mass slides.

In any event, shooting tasks like Garcia dot drills, the 19 does that much better for me than a 17. I had predetermined in my mind that the 17 would shoot better, and was definitely surprised when the smaller 19 shot a range of tasks better. Even more surprised as I have much more experience shooting a 17 than a 19.

[GJM]

A few more data points. TLG told me that he found the P30 to track better than a P30L. He had a more technical explanation, that I can't fully remember now, but the gist was the shorter slide did better. Last year, I found the 320 Compact to track better for me than the full size 320. My favorite 320 configuration was the full size lower and compact upper. (The 320 had iron sights, not a RDS.)

[98z28]

A few more data points. TLG told me that he found the P30 to track better than a P30L. He had a more technical explanation, that I can't fully remember now, but the gist was the shorter slide did better. Last year, I found the 320 Compact to track better for me than the full size 320. My favorite 320 configuration was the full size lower and compact upper. (The 320 had iron sights, not a RDS.)

I've found that to be true with a few guns now. Sig 226 v 229, Sig 320F v 320C, HK P30L v P30, and Glock 17 v 19. In each case I found it easier to track the front sight on the shorter slide version of the same gun. Shooter sample of one, but it has been a very consistent experience even though I go into each experiment expecting to prefer the longer slide version. There is some point where the benefit of a shorter slide stops though. It seems to be somewhere around a barrel length of 3.8", but I can't say for sure that it is because of slide length/mass, or because shorter barreled guns tend to have smaller grips. I prefer a S&W M&Pf to a M&Pc, and a G19 to a G26, for example.

[davisj]

I've read several posts across various forums that users found the G26 to be as or more accurate than a G19. IF that's true to an extent, I wonder how a G26 with a RDS would shoot in terms of accuracy. Note, I have zero experience with a RDS on a pistol and haven't owned a G26 in 10+ years, simply pontificating.

[GJM]

The 26 is reputed to be the most accurate, Glock 9mm. Short, stiff barrel.

I am running to a match, so this is the short story. I shot otherwise identical 19 and 34 pistols yesterday, and on a number of tests, like the Garcia dot drill, the 19 was faster. The 34 was easier to hit quickly with at distance, because of more sight radius. I think the 19 with an optic is the sweet spot, as the 26 is short enough in the grip it is harder to manipulate at speed.

[Appalachained]

A few years back Glock said the most accurate was the G30. I don't know about now what with all the new long slide models out.

[JBP55]

A few years back Glock said the most accurate was the G30. I don't know about now what with all the new long slide models out.

Yes, according to Glock their most accurate pistol is the G30.

[JCS]

You could shave a bit off that cost or do it in stages - PS member Justintime is building one in stages. Trigger and mag well, then had the grip work done. Just installed the KKM barrel and comp. The RMR will be last.


G&R tactical has LE/ MIL pricing on the RMR 06 - e mail them. You could start with blue label G19 MOS $477 - Dawson makes MOS compatible back up sights.

Do you have a link to a thread for his build. Would love to follow as I am looking at the same process.

[JCS]

Not to create a thread drift, but I do have a question because it seems there are some very knowledgeable posters on here.

What's your thoughts on having window cuts on a Glock? Specifically in the role of a defensive handgun? I see a lot of custom slides have Windows on the sides and tops now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[YVK]

A few more data points. TLG told me that he found the P30 to track better than a P30L. He had a more technical explanation, that I can't fully remember now, but the gist was the shorter slide did better. Last year, I found the 320 Compact to track better for me than the full size 320. My favorite 320 configuration was the full size lower and compact upper. (The 320 had iron sights, not a RDS.)

Todd's explanation was that for the same amount of flip measured in angle/degrees the front sight on a shorter gun will travel less distance and will be easier to to track. This is best appreciated on guns that you mentioned, P30 vs L or 320 with full sized lower and short slide vs full sized 320, because the frames are the same and you don't give anything up in your ability to get a full, strong grip. While it is always hard to say whether angular flip is the same for longer vs shorter slides, I think Todd was right. I found that both subjective tracking and splits up close are slightly better with P30 than L. One of my future projects is to run a P30 in games and see how I did vs 30L, just need appropriate sights.

G19 vs G34, irons or RDS, to me is a harder discussion. First, the frames are different so that may influence the ability to control the flip and track. Second, slides are quite a bit different. I've not shot g34 that much, but to me it always cycled more favorably/flatter than 19 so I am very surprised by your, and others, dot findings. Will be standing by for more reports.

[1slow]

Not to create a thread drift, but I do have a question because it seems there are some very knowledgeable posters on here.

What's your thoughts on having window cuts on a Glock? Specifically in the role of a defensive handgun? I see a lot of custom slides have Windows on the sides and tops now.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know there are serious guys carrying GL34 etc... I was never comfortable with the hole in the top of the slide.

No windows in slide for me. I was in John Farnham's Instructor class in south GA. One student's gun went into the sand and quit working. He took it apart and sand had worked into the recoil spring assembly. He had to put another spring assembly in to get it back working.

[JonInWA]

I know there are serious guys carrying GL34 etc... I was never comfortable with the hole in the top of the slide.

No windows in slide for me. I was in John Farnham's Instructor class in south GA. One student's gun went into the sand and quit working. He took it apart and sand had worked into the recoil spring assembly. He had to put another spring assembly in to get it back working.

Was the problematic gun a Gen4, with its nested springs? I can see how that get bound up by sand-the earlier generation single flat-wire springs, not so much (or much easier to resolve by siply removing spring and knocking out the sand).

Best, Jon

[1slow]

Yes, the Glock had nested springs. I would think that with non nested springs you could shake/flush out the sand etc...

Nested springs might create the same problem in any pistol using them if sand etc... got in them.

I think slide windows make it easier to get debris in the pistol.

[JonInWA]

Yes, the Glock had nested springs. I would think that with non nested springs you could shake/flush out the sand etc...

Nested springs might create the same problem in any pistol using them if sand etc... got in them.

I think slide windows make it easier to get debris in the pistol.

While I don't disagree, I think that the potential of operational issues from debris introduced from the slide cut-out window may be overrated. Conversely, you could always cover the window with a strip of Speedy 100 MPH tape/duct tape/masking tape....

But I think that the possibility of the Gen4 nested springs being bound up by sand/dirt/fine particulate is a significant concern-I wonder what tests the British Army ran before adopting the Gen4 G17 as their issue weapon?

Best, Jon

[Nephrology]

Todd's explanation was that for the same amount of flip measured in angle/degrees the front sight on a shorter gun will travel less distance and will be easier to to track. This is best appreciated on guns that you mentioned, P30 vs L or 320 with full sized lower and short slide vs full sized 320, because the frames are the same and you don't give anything up in your ability to get a full, strong grip. While it is always hard to say whether angular flip is the same for longer vs shorter slides, I think Todd was right. I found that both subjective tracking and splits up close are slightly better with P30 than L. One of my future projects is to run a P30 in games and see how I did vs 30L, just need appropriate sights.

G19 vs G34, irons or RDS, to me is a harder discussion. First, the frames are different so that may influence the ability to control the flip and track. Second, slides are quite a bit different. I've not shot g34 that much, but to me it always cycled more favorably/flatter than 19 so I am very surprised by your, and others, dot findings. Will be standing by for more reports.

I own and shoot 19s, a 17 and a 35 w/9mm barrel; of the 3, I prefer the 17 for pretty much every shooting application except >25 yd shots. Sights are way easier to track than either the 19 or the 35. bear in mind they're all pretty easy to shoot; largely splitting hairs in my distinction here.

[StraitR]

For those here that know him, is this THE faceshooting Roland?

NSFW due to language (Roland).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yfl9DupLLmw

[DocGKR]

Yes it is.

Great American.

When he retires, he will likely become among the best shooting instructors available.

[BJJ]

Yes it is.

Great American.

When he retires, he will likely become among the best shooting instructors available.

That will be awesome. Hopefully he won't teach through Alias.

[GRV]

That painted a very different picture about the whole thing than what I gathered from PF.

[HCM]

That painted a very different picture about the whole thing than what I gathered from PF.

But in the end, it worked. Don't over think it.

[DocGKR]

How so?

Our use of comp'd RDS equipped G19's began in late 2014 and was discussed here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator. And yes, we were influenced by "Roland" experience with the concept. It may have started as a "joke", but it changed rapidly to an effective tool.

We began our RDS pistol trial in early 2010 as noted here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1059-Use-of-RDS-on-service-pistols and https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?1763-RDS-on-a-SemiAuto.

[Robinson]

At the risk of posting derp:

I will speculate that some of the good folks using a setup like this also use earpro during operations, but that the compensated G19 is also finding its way into holsters of people who can't count on having earpro. Isn't the gun going to be just loud as hell and hose your ears even more than usual if you have to resort to firing it? Or is that just not a consideration when the comp provides a flatter shooting pistol?

[HCM]

At the risk of posting derp:

I will speculate that some of the good folks using a setup like this also use earpro during operations, but that the compensated G19 is also finding its way into holsters of people who can't count on having earpro. Isn't the gun going to be just loud as hell and hose your ears even more than usual if you have to resort to firing it? Or is that just not a consideration when the comp provides a flatter shooting pistol?

Comps are normally louder to those in the vicinity of the shooter rather than to the shooter himself. Comps on rifles, in particular, are discouraged in a team environment or a firing line because they re-direct the blast to either side of the shooter. Plus rifles have much more blast than pistols so it is less of an issue on a pistol.

[ranger]

Cannot be any worse than a 5.56 SAW. Military issues earplugs to wear in combat - was part of the personal protective equipment issued along with gloves and eye protection (and body armor).

[noguns]

Why not start with a gen 3 g19c?

[HCM]

Why not start with a gen 3 g19c?

C cuts are not very effective as comps, particularly in 9mm and they require an opening in the top pf the slide, like the G34/35 which, depending on what you are doing this can introduce debris into the gun and cause malfunctions.

[GRV]

But in the end, it worked. Don't over think it.


How so?

[...]

It may have started as a "joke", but it changed rapidly to an effective tool.



sigh... Honestly, I wasn't planning on saying anything to begin with, and tried to minimize my comment, because I felt the likelihood of incensed misinterpretation was just too great. I expected the "How so?" and just got through telling eyemahm I didn't plan on commenting on that either...but it sounds like I've already been misunderstood, so now I sort of already feel the need to clarify.

I could probably talk about this for at least an hour. And I think I talked at eyemahm about it for an hour or so a little while ago... just off my initial, unmatured reactions. So, I really can't summarize my feelings in a post that approaches anything near readable length, nor length that I feel like typing. And that's coming from a kid who probably types longer, rantier posts on average than most anyone else on PF. But, I'll just sample a few scattered thoughts without going into detail on any of them.

In no particular order:

- Roland is likely a tier 1 faceshooter that has put more rounds down range "for real" than I have used squares of toilet paper to wipe my ass in my entire life. (Granted, I've been a folder, not a baller, for many years.) I in no way question or doubt his experience or understanding of his gear needs and constraints. In fact, I think the message that PF represented most genuinely is that dudes like him trying stuff like this is vastly different and less prone to issue than average Joes even mimicking stuff like this, let alone trying to innovate it themselves.

- I really didn't have any issues with Roland's arguments at all. They seemed extremely genuine, self-aware, and respectable.

- Undoubtedly, I have conflated little bits, taken out of context, from various posts across the 2+ relevant threads, to paint a picture that is simply wrong.

- I expect that the perspective of people who develop and test this gear is very different from that of those who request and use this gear, and I think that may be largely responsible for the difference in ambiance I observed.

Disclaimers out of the way:

- I had the distinct impression from PF that the Roland special was born from the following scenario: super faceshooter dude(s) that need to conceal a pistol as a primary duty weapon with the capability of making shots out to 25 yards to execute missions as dynamic as hostage rescue under adverse conditions including low light and that all of these things happened with such frequency that a special pistol was needed to maximize those mission objectives, i.e. that the detailed nature of the Roland special was born out of extremely specific mission requirements. On the other hand, in the video, Roland appears to state, quite frankly and respectably, that the Roland special was born in large part because he felt his gun wasn't cool enough and in part because of the universal Seinfeld motivator ("spite"), among other less controversial reasons. Whatever the motivations were, exceedingly intricate mission requirements were more than just absent from the video, they were probably the furthest thing from any of the motivations provided in the video. The noncontroversial motivations seemed like pretty generic performance concerns that just about anyone on this forum would be qualified to raise.

- Roland talked about outshooting his Glock. As a side note, I pondered that outshooting a gun is very different from being able to shoot some other gun much better. That is, I think even a beginner can probably shoot a 1911 more accurately than a Glock, but it doesn't mean they've outshot the Glock. I have no idea what Roland's shooting abilities are, and if I had to guess, based on verbal clues from the video, I'd guess he really is outshooting his stock Glocks, but I found the point interesting nonetheless and found myself wondering to what extent the difference even matters. Should it matter, from a mission perspective, if you shoot a modded gun better because you're really outshooting the stock version vs. because you haven't mastered the stock version? Anyway, that's a digression.

- I was under the impression that Roland carried a G34 before this and wasn't changing holsters or slide length in making the change. It doesn't sound like that was the case. This was a conflation on my part, I think.

- Roland ended the story at the KKM barrel and comp.... Even just the MRDS had to be goaded into the story. I thought the most interesting part of the Roland special was all of the custom internal modifications being present on a duty gun that had to be seriously used to do really difficult things (c.f. the whole 25 yard 0030 ninja concealment hostage rescue mission bit). None of them were even mentioned. The most that was discussed were other, tangential external modifications.

- No discussion about reliability was brought up. Not about the comp and barrel, not about what ammo it limited the user to, not about the MRDS in adverse duty conditions, and especially not about the internals package. i.e. it didn't paint the carefully-tuned, thoroughly-vetted picture I got from the PF discussion.

- I think if any average PF user expressed interest in the Roland special because it had more soul, was cooler, or because it's just easier to shoot, they'd be crucified. At the very least, they'd be regarded lower. In fact, I'd bet a few cents that that sort of thing happened at least once throughout the various threads, but I could be wrong. Now, I think there is an entirely justifiable double standard here, because clearly a person like Roland is wayyyyy more qualified to make well-informed decisions based on things like that than any of us are. But it seemed to me that PF was desperately clinging to its opposite ideals here by painting a picture that the birth, adoption, and continued use of the Roland special had nothing to do with such frivolities. It feels like there was a simultaneous unwillingness to 1) loosen or back off from the ideals or 2) publicly disown the motivations of a really cool, likable, and thoroughly experienced dude like Roland.


I really don't mean to insult or flame anyone or anything here. I couldn't find a way of articulating my feelings that didn't come off that way, and so, I felt the best summary was the one I gave, that it simply "painted a different picture".

Quite possibly the true story is both the PF one and the Roland one: that it was born from this funky experiment, but ended up being used for extremely specific mission requirements. I already know I'm going to get schooled by such an explanation. I accept that. But somehow I felt remiss in not briefly remarking on what I thought was the (rather obvious) difference between the flavor of the discussion here on PF about the gun vs the flavor of Roland's narrative.

I expect that, even more likely than any of my expressed feelings being misinterpreted, is that I was the one most misinterpreting things in reading the various threads.


And now that I have succeed at, not summarizing my feelings, but rather, firmly shoving my foot in my mouth for the Nth time and hanging myself from the gallows, I'll quietly retreat into my corner to get beaten.


P.S. Doc, I hadn't actually seen all those threads, just a few of them. I'm hoping to go back and read all of them more carefully.

[TiroFijo]

I think that for every Tier 1 shooter that thinks "X is THE answer", you'll fing some other just as experienced and qualified that thinks "Y" is...

[StraitR]

- I had the distinct impression from PF that the Roland special was born from the following scenario: super faceshooter dude(s) that need to conceal a pistol as a primary duty weapon with the capability of making shots out to 25 yards to execute missions as dynamic as hostage rescue under adverse conditions including low light and that all of these things happened with such frequency that a special pistol was needed to maximize those mission objectives, i.e. that the detailed nature of the Roland special was born out of extremely specific mission requirements...

...But it seemed to me that PF was desperately clinging to its opposite ideals here by painting a picture that the birth, adoption, and continued use of the Roland special had nothing to do with such frivolities.....

....Quite possibly the true story is both the PF one and the Roland one: that it was born from this funky experiment, but ended up being used for extremely specific mission requirements....

...I expect that, even more likely than any of my expressed feelings being misinterpreted, is that I was the one most misinterpreting things in reading the various threads.


It took me a half hour to post that video, not because I have difficulties embedding YT videos, but because I kept typing, deleting, typing, deleting comments very similar to many of yours.

If it works, it works, and if it helps him do his job, then I don't really care how it came to be, but I agree it's very different from my preconceived notions. So right or wrong, you're not the only one.

[GJM]

I may have missed it in this or other related threads, but have we been told how many examples of the Roland exist and how many of those are in actual service for face shooting activities?

[martin_j001]

I came across that video/podcast the other day in doing some research on the Roland Special setup...




- I think if any average PF user expressed interest in the Roland special because it had more soul, was cooler, or because it's just easier to shoot, they'd be crucified. At the very least, they'd be regarded lower. In fact, I'd bet a few cents that that sort of thing happened at least once throughout the various threads, but I could be wrong. Now, I think there is an entirely justifiable double standard here, because clearly a person like Roland is wayyyyy more qualified to make well-informed decisions based on things like that than any of us are. But it seemed to me that PF was desperately clinging to its opposite ideals here by painting a picture that the birth, adoption, and continued use of the Roland special had nothing to do with such frivolities. It feels like there was a simultaneous unwillingness to 1) loosen or back off from the ideals or 2) publicly disown the motivations of a really cool, likable, and thoroughly experienced dude like Roland.

...and had a similar thought to this. While on one hand, we have people who run guns for a living say it works and works well for that purpose, on the other hand, I've wondered how one would be received for having their carry firearm setup in this way if they don't carry a gun for a living. Not only here on these forums, but legally too, in the case of a defensive use of the firearm. Unfortunately, as we all know...looks can play a role to a group of our "peers"... (less of a concern, or no concern if there is no ambiguity in the incident).

I have been considering trying out the barrel/comp from KKM, and fit into the category you mentioned in your post earlier, dove, where I have been carrying my G34 more lately.... So I have all the carry equipment necessary to carry an elongated G19. I can conceal the 19 better, and shoot it well (definitely don't outshoot it), but if it is flatter shooting and easier to make follow up shots with than even a G34, that is something that benefits any person behind the gun--whether for competition, or in a defensive situation, right? If I were to undertake this, I'd be looking to do just the barrel/comp to begin with, and may or may not upgrade to a red dot later (the cost of doing so is quite steep, as I'm sure we all know).

[JHC]

I may have missed it in this or other related threads, but have we been told how many examples of the Roland exist and how many of those are in actual service for face shooting activities?

I don't think you missed it. That's tough to say and then OPSEC ;). I the vid is pretty amazing from the standpoint of a current SMU member providing an interview. Not sure I've ever heard of anything comparable. I suspect not so many; unlike the more widely employed RDS concept.

Another shooter at my club caught up with me to day and told of his recent experience with a new KKM comp on his MOS G34. He shot mine in a G19 a few weeks ago and was dumbstruck so he jumped on one for his 34. He uses and RMR and liked his rig but he likes it way more with the comp and his dot just jiggling in his field of view.

OTOH he also decided to go full Zev on his gun's trigger and his favorite handloads don't cycle the gun with the comp. So that's fine, he's a tinkerer and "shoots for fun" so he's now busy working up new loads. Note he said it ran WWB 115 fine.

So with each gun around me (two G19s and his 34) that has gotten aggressive aftermarket trigger set ups - all Zev as it happens - the comp has tightened "the window" of reliable functioning. It hasn't occurred to me to try it with a compromised grip yet. Ought to.

[Luke]

Are people changing the recoil spring weights In The Roland specials?

[JHC]

Are people changing the recoil spring weights In The Roland specials?

That is what two of my Zev trigger friends think they would do IF they went the compensated route. I haven't seen any indication I need to; shooting factory ammo in G19s that are otherwise stock 'cept for an OEM minus connector.

[Luke]

That is what two of my Zev trigger friends think they would do IF they went the compensated route. I haven't seen any indication I need to; shooting factory ammo in G19s that are otherwise stock 'cept for an OEM minus connector.

Are your examples compensated? Forgive me if you've already said so.

[JHC]

Are your examples compensated? Forgive me if you've already said so.

Their two Zev tuned G19s were only compensated while trying out my KKM comp barrel in their guns.

[GRV]

I should add that a very large part of what Roland was talking about as primary motivation, which he said he "struggled with for years", was the idea of having a custom weapon with a specific heritage traceable to a particular set of artisans' handwork. There was copious reference to Japanese sword fighters here. While, on the one hand, I'm not totally convinced that the Roland Special 100% succeeds at filling that niche (which I'm sure Roland fully realizes), that's irrelevant to the point I wanted to make:

This goes back to the justifiable double standard thing. If your average joe wanted a custom gun so he could be like a modern-day samurai we would tear the poor dude apart, and probably rightfully so. The wannabe and derp would be too strong for most of us to hold back.

Roland is a different story though. He's clearly part of a culture and tradition that dates back thousands of years. It's a very different story for him to act on these desires, because he will be one of the "samurai" people read about 100 years from now in history books. I imagine that spending your life "running around the planet, punching dudes in the head" really taxes a person's inner psyche, identity, and humanity, and if such a guy can find joy or comfort in owning a much more soulful tool for that job, then power to them. Like I said, I really have no issues with Roland's presentation. In a sense, this is a very specific mission requirement. Dudes like him need to be able to spend years and years running around killing people, without going insane, and to an extent still enjoying the job, while remaining decent human beings, in order to be the best they can be. So, it seems quite possible that having a gun you enjoy using, that you can feel an emotional and identity attachment to, can actually be a solution to a mission problem.

IME, dudes like Roland tend to have such a broad and deep knowledge of the history and culture of warriors around the world through the years that it'd make a professor's head spin. And, like I said, they're creating that history and culture in real time, every day. The bottom line is, while there may or many not be room to criticize the motivation, almost none of us are qualified to do so because we don't fully understand the perspective that dudes like him have.

Between all that, plus some of the more interesting justifications like keeping the WML lens clean under prolonged low light shooting while maintaining concealability, I think there was/is room for some very positive, interesting PF discussion on the birth motivations. However, that's just not the way the PF presentation felt. The PF presentation seemed like it was telling a story that served more mundane, typical PF rhetoric. Maybe I just misread it, and maybe that story is still even true, but whatever the case is, it led to the video taking me off guard a little.






Also, there's the whole "fuck you, that's why". Some of us occasionally preach it, and we have one dude who is the walking manifestation, the fucking Egyptian god of "fuck you, that's why", but I don't think we fully accept it as a community. If someone is well educated on the matter and understands the drawbacks of a decision when it comes to gear, but makes it anyway, we should probably avoid jumping down their throats about it. I don't think the person needs to be a faceshooter to qualify for that pass. I certainly think it's still useful for the drawbacks to be discussed in such cases, as it helps educate everyone. But as it stands it feels like there's an unspoken class structure that gets determined by the making or not making of these kind of decisions. I think the bottom line is that, unless you're a faceshooter, we tend to assume that people aren't well educated enough to knowingly make flawed choices to satisfy inner desires, and instead that such choices are being backed only by derp. But I digress..... and I really didn't intend for this to become a lecture or critique on PF culture (which I'm certainly not qualified to give) but I realize that's what it reads like now sooo......back to the corner.

[GJM]

Disclosure -- I didn't watch the video yet, as I have been on the run.

Considering my new thread on the RMR vs DP Pro, I am wondering if the KKM comp is primarily addressing an issue with the RMR. That issue being the relatively short window, which makes dot tracking harder. So for example, if the window was taller like a Pro (disregarding the other face shooting deficiencies of the Pro), I wonder if the comp would be unnecessary. This would allow for a shorter physical package, less cost, less noise/flash, and presumably greater reliability.

[JHC]

Disclosure -- I didn't watch the video yet, as I have been on the run.

Considering my new thread on the RMR vs DP Pro, I am wondering if the KKM comp is primarily addressing an issue with the RMR. That issue being the relatively short window, which makes dot tracking harder. So for example, if the window was taller like a Pro (disregarding the other face shooting deficiencies of the Pro), I wonder if the comp would be unnecessary. This would allow for a shorter physical package, less cost, less noise/flash and presumably greater reliability.

I got my first peek through a first gen Leu DP mounted on a G23 yesterday and holy crackers it's window was YUUUGE. And it's dot much cleaner to my vision. So yeah, maybe.

[GRV]

I was hoping to have more discussions like this post: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator&p=436926&viewfull=1#post436926 regarding the setup. Particularly with respect to reliability testing.

Admittedly, it's become hard for me to catch up on what's now in the vicinity of 100 pages cumulatively on the topic, so someone please link to relevant posts if I missed something.

Doc, what sort of data do you have for testing the reliability of the barrel+comp and the internals package, across different factory loads? I ask because, based on your posts and mindset in general, I do fully expect you've extremely thoroughly vetted the platform. However, I'm wondering if it has been vetted for a specific load only (I know you mentioned 147 HST), or if it's been tested across a more broad selection of JHPs and FMJ.

[okie john]

Admittedly, it's become hard for me to catch up on what's now in the vicinity of 100 pages cumulatively on the topic, so someone please link to relevant posts if I missed something.

It's hard for anyone to catch up on a 100-page thread, but it's worth it. Given the quality of people working on that thread, a post that seems irrelevant now can become of paramount importance with one reply.

Seriously, give it a chance.


Okie John

[GRV]

It's hard for anyone to catch up on a 100-page thread, but it's worth it. Given the quality of people working on that thread, a post that seems irrelevant now can become of paramount importance with one reply.

Seriously, give it a chance.


Okie John

Oh, I am. I went through 50+ pages last night :p

[okie john]

Oh, I am. I went through 50+ pages last night :p

I've gone through it a couple of times and I still keep coming up with new ways to look at this entire question.


Okie John

[GRV]

I've gone through it a couple of times and I still keep coming up with new ways to look at this entire question.


Okie John

Agreed. I just went through another 20+ and found posts I had forgotten I had made, and reread awesome posts by other people that were very worthwhile when I read them and even more worthwhile rereading them. And I still feel like I haven't fully squeezed everything latent in those posts out of them.


ETA: It also seems like there are a lot of unspoken feelings on many sides of the issue here, which makes correctly interpreting some of these awesome posts very difficult.

[DocGKR]

Some of you folks don't seem to have a grasp on the dark, dry, sardonic wit exhibited by our Nation's death dealing secret squirrel ninja face shooting warriors at the tip of the bloody spear. You watch but do not see; you listen but do not hear. There is much humor to be had as well as nuggets of knowledge to be mined when listening to experienced guys talk and BS.

The half-dozen 3rd gen G19's with RMR06, KKM barrel and comp we tested are accurate as described in data reported in other threads and have typical Glock reliability (no malfunctions) with common service ammunition, including Fed 147 gr AE9FP FMJ, Fed 147 gr HST, Win 147 gr RA9T, Win 147 gr Bonded RA9B, Speer 147 gr G2, Hornday 135 gr +P CD, Federal 124 gr +P HST, Speer 124 gr +P Gold Dot, and M882. Since these Glocks use all OEM parts except the barrel and comp (note that half the pistols also had VTAC mag wells/half did not), there is no reason why they should not be reliable; the KKM barrels have proven a bit more accurate and consistent than Glock OEM barrels, so there is no reason why the pistols should not prove accurate.

The RMR comp'd G19's shoot faster and more accurately than identical non-compensated G19's. The compensated G19's are as easy to carry as a G34--including AIWB, IWB, OWB, and in a duty holster. I am utterly failing to see any controversy or issue.

[Jay Cunningham]

Since these Glocks use all OEM parts except the barrel and comp (note that half the pistols also had VTAC mag wells/half did not), there is no reason why they should not be reliable; the KKM barrels have proven a bit more accurate and consistent than Glock OEM barrels, so there is no reason why the pistols should not prove accurate.

The original post said Vickers mag release, Vickers slide catch, polished striker safety, Wolff striker safety spring, Wolff plus power trigger spring, light polish/deburr striker tab & contact surfaces on trigger bar and connector.

[DocGKR]

Perhaps on "Roland's" original one, but not on the ones we tested, as described here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator

[Jay Cunningham]

Perhaps on "Roland's" original one, but not on the ones we tested, as described here: https://pistol-forum.com/showthread.php?15857-G19-with-RMR06-and-KKM-compensator

Cool. I have no idea, I'm just reading the words.

:D

[BehindBlueI's]

Between all that, plus some of the more interesting justifications like keeping the WML lens clean under prolonged low light shooting while maintaining concealability, I think there was/is room for some very positive, interesting PF discussion on the birth motivations. However, that's just not the way the PF presentation felt. The PF presentation seemed like it was telling a story that served more mundane, typical PF rhetoric. Maybe I just misread it, and maybe that story is still even true, but whatever the case is, it led to the video taking me off guard a little.

Even hard charger tip of the spear guys are still guys. Guys like cool shit, guys like Excalibur, guys have rituals and superstitions, etc. Just not at the cost of functionality, and that's all the difference. If it both works better AND is cooler? Fucking bonus. The funniest thing to me about the video is when he talked about tools and used "Craftsman" tools as the standard. He'd probably have a better relationship with his socket set if it was Matco...plus his tool chest would cost more than his Glock. :D

[GRV]

Some of you folks don't seem to have a grasp on the dark, dry, sardonic wit exhibited by our Nation's death dealing secret squirrel ninja face shooting warriors at the tip of the bloody spear. You watch but do not see; you listen but do not hear. There is much humor to be had as well as nuggets of knowledge to be mined when listening to experienced guys talk and BS.

I got the joking here and there. But, if what your saying is that the whole 14-minute long "30 second" story was a joke, a troll, and that the actual motivation for this had nothing to do with the reasons that Roland seemed to quite genuinely harp on, then fine, I will do better than to watch another such podcast. Excuse me for assuming I was listening to something less abstruse than Mr. Miyagi's attempt at stand-up comedy and for my being too obtuse to "get it".

I always thought pistol-forum was a place to objectively (as much as possible) debate, discuss, and experiment with hardware and software performance. I don't understand why we need to hide any of that behind gotcha trolling or secret squirrel "cool kids club" exclusivity bullshit. Either the info is classified, or it's not, and if it's not, let's just spell it out or agree not to bother. The faceshooter-posse zen koan crap isn't teaching anyone anything.

Doc, please don't take that as a personal attack. It's just not the first time I've seen the "you're just not wise enough to 'get it'" cop-out thrown around on here. Those of us who are not uber-experienced faceshooters or part of the club are pretty well aware of that fact, and are just interested in learning what we can.




The half-dozen 3rd gen G19's with RMR06, KKM barrel and comp we tested are accurate as described in data reported in other threads and have typical Glock reliability (no malfunctions) with common service ammunition, including Fed 147 gr AE9FP FMJ, Fed 147 gr HST, Win 147 gr RA9T, Win 147 gr Bonded RA9B, Speer 147 gr G2, Hornday 135 gr +P CD, Federal 124 gr +P HST, Speer 124 gr +P Gold Dot, and M882.

Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.




Since these Glocks use all OEM parts except the barrel and comp (note that half the pistols also had VTAC mag wells/half did not), there is no reason why they should not be reliable; the KKM barrels have proven a bit more accurate and consistent than Glock OEM barrels, so there is no reason why the pistols should not prove accurate.

The first page lists 5-6 internal modifications... Hand polishing, minus connector, Wolff parts... Are these part of the setup or not?



ETA: posts happened before I submitted mine

[orionz06]

I didn't watch the video or read the thread, is this gun even being used or it it just a fuck around thing?


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

[DocGKR]

These pistols are being used by quite a few folks in various organizations.


"The first page lists 5-6 internal modifications... Hand polishing, minus connector, Wolff parts... Are these part of the setup or not?"

As I mentioned, what the folks in "Roland" land do with their pistols is up to them--the pistols we tested used all OEM stock parts except as noted in my previous post above.


"I got the joking here and there. But, if what your saying is that the whole 14-minute long "30 second" story was a joke, a troll, and that the actual motivation for this had nothing to do with the reasons that Roland seemed to quite genuinely harp on, then fine, I will do better than to watch another such podcast. Excuse me for assuming I was listening to something less abstruse than Mr. Miyagi's attempt at stand-up comedy and for my being too obtuse to "get it"."

dove--I try to provide as much objective data as possible. There is info that is not classified, but also not in the public domain--sometimes that gets a bit grey. Perhaps it might be easier to just stop posting anything at all, since often times folks seem to get so upset and hostile. To the best of my knowledge, no one here is trying to hide anything or is doing any "trolling" or claiming secret squirrel "cool kids club" status. I personally know "Roland", he has a unique world view, a keen sense of wry humor, and a depth of experience most cannot fathom. I always learn something in conversations with him. The key is to learn to winnow the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Ignoring what he says would be a great loss of potential knowledge, but again, you have to go with the flow. There is also a lot of history with him and Glocks--not knowing that could can cause a loss of situational awareness and context when listening to him....

[HCM]

I didn't watch the video or read the thread, is this gun even being used or it it just a fuck around thing?


Sent from my Nokia 3310 using an owl

It started as a fuckaround thing which worked out really well and was subsequently pressed into actual use.

Like a ballistic version of the discovery of penicillin.

[GRV]

dove--I try to provide as much objective data as possible. There is info that is not classified, but also not in the public domain--sometimes that gets a bit grey. Perhaps it might be easier to just stop posting anything at all, since often times folks seem to get so upset and hostile. To the best of my knowledge, no one here is trying to hide anything or is doing any "trolling" or claiming secret squirrel "cool kids club" status. I personally know "Roland", he has a unique world view, a keen sense of wry humor, and a depth of experience most cannot fathom. I always learn something in conversations with him. The key is to learn to winnow the wheat from the chaff, so to speak. Ignoring what he says would be a great loss of potential knowledge, but again, you have to go with the flow. There is also a lot of history with him and Glocks--not knowing that could can cause a loss of situational awareness and context when listening to him....

Got it. That was very useful, thanks.

You're certainly among the more prolific people I associate with providing detailed objective data, which is why I spend so much time reading and thinking about the topics you have a stake in.


I just got through your epic post on the MRDS options. Is my understanding correct that the RMR06 has replaced the RMR02 as the go-to option?

Also, is the Aimpoint Micro option really too big for ccw and even duty carry, or are there other issues that prevent it from being the go-to?

[HCM]

I got the joking here and there. But, if what your saying is that the whole 14-minute long "30 second" story was a joke, a troll, and that the actual motivation for this had nothing to do with the reasons that Roland seemed to quite genuinely harp on, then fine, I will do better than to watch another such podcast. Excuse me for assuming I was listening to something less abstruse than Mr. Miyagi's attempt at stand-up comedy and for my being too obtuse to "get it".

I always thought pistol-forum was a place to objectively (as much as possible) debate, discuss, and experiment with hardware and software performance. I don't understand why we need to hide any of that behind gotcha trolling or secret squirrel "cool kids club" exclusivity bullshit. Either the info is classified, or it's not, and if it's not, let's just spell it out or agree not to bother. The faceshooter-posse zen koan crap isn't teaching anyone anything.

Doc, please don't take that as a personal attack. It's just not the first time I've seen the "you're just not wise enough to 'get it'" cop-out thrown around on here. Those of us who are not uber-experienced faceshooters or part of the club are pretty well aware of that fact, and are just interested in learning what we can.




Exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.




The first page lists 5-6 internal modifications... Hand polishing, minus connector, Wolff parts... Are these part of the setup or not?



ETA: posts happened before I submitted mine

Here is what I think you don't get. At a certain point analysis equals paralysis and you have to go try things out. Sometimes they work out sometimes they don't.

I get the impression you're somehow a little disappointed that this concept wasn't developed in a lab by DARPA. Like many of us, guys like Roland are both "professional shooters" and "hobby shooter". New things come up, if they seem to have merit they try them. Sometimes they work out sometimes they don't. The ones which work out migrate from the hobby side to the professional use side.

One of the things which sets a guy like Roland apart, is he has the resources and background / depth of knowledge to properly vett new ideas and equipment. He also had the ability to keep his "worlds from colliding" as George Costanza would say. The same reason these guys don't stress about shooting competition getting them "kilt in da streetz".

Sometimes these things don't work out An example would be how this unit came to use Glocks. They were very 1911 / 45 centric and had a bunch of guys who shot USPSA. When their requirements evolved to a higher capacity .40 caliber pistol, they spent a year trying .40 cal 2011s. The 2011s were good in theory but in practice, reliability and ease of maintenance were not where they needed to be so they moved on to Glocks.

[JHC]

I didn't watch the video or read the thread, is this gun even being used or it it just a fuck around thing?


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I've no RDS yet. But for me my KKM barrel with comp is a "fuck around thing" I was keen on since Doc's original thread and when G&A took it viral I jumped lest they become unobtanium.

I've spent more for far less fun. This freakin' comp is the most fun I've ever had shooting a Glock and I dig Glocks. I can't wait for the daughter in laws to get a chance to try it.

From time to time I work at meeting a standard of D2 to a 3x5 at 7 yards in 2.0 sec or better. I've not been close to making that standard except when I catch a flyer and make it once in a while. I'm normally pretty consistent (say 80%) in the 2.4 range.

But last time out with this comp I shot 80% clean but 2.10 was the high and it included 1.75, 1.89, 1.89 clean consecutively. I've not seen anything like that before. I've still more serious time to spend with it as I've been passing it around a lot for others' impressions.

It's freakin a lot of fun.

[GRV]

I'm more guilty of analysis paralysis than most, but I try to try things out as best I can with my resources and defer to the opinions of those who have when I cannot.

I'm not disappointed, it's just not what it was made to sound like here. I probably should have left that one-liner post well enough alone, like I said. It was the best summary of my feelings I could muster. That said.....DARPA-funded pistol lab? Let me know where to sign up :cool: You have me well pegged.

Tracking on the rest.

[DocGKR]

RMR06 is what we standardized on.

Micro-Aimpoint's can work for CCW with the right holster--we have tried them with G19's, G17's, and M&P's. While they work OK for CCW, most folks prefer the RMR--smaller, better dot clarity, more holsters. So far there are no viable duty holsters for the micro-Aimpoint. Micro-Aimpoints tend to work better than open emitter designs (RMR, DP) for carry in hostile environmental conditions.

[StraitR]

I've no RDS yet. But for me my KKM barrel with comp is a "fuck around thing" I was keen on since Doc's original thread and when G&A took it viral I jumped lest they become unobtanium.

I've spent more for far less fun. This freakin' comp is the most fun I've ever had shooting a Glock and I dig Glocks. I can't wait for the daughter in laws to get a chance to try it.

From time to time I work at meeting a standard of D2 to a 3x5 at 7 yards in 2.0 sec or better. I've not been close to making that standard except when I catch a flyer and make it once in a while. I'm normally pretty consistent (say 80%) in the 2.4 range.

But last time out with this comp I shot 80% clean but 2.10 was the high and it included 1.75, 1.89, 1.89 clean consecutively. I've not seen anything like that before. I've still more serious time to spend with it as I've been passing it around a lot for others' impressions.

It's freakin a lot of fun.

And I've pieced together the Roland minus KKM barrel/comp. I'm dying to complete this Han Solo blaster and give it a run because I'm sure it's everything Doc and others have made it out to be. BUT, based on my experience trying to AIWB a Brig Tac with similar overall length, I know that I would never carry it and another fun gun would simply distract me from my current pistol goals.

I wish one of you jokers with the comp lived closer to me.

[ranger]

I am glad that the warriors at the tip of the spear are developing the best "kit" that meets their unique requirements. However, it is interesting in this thread that highlights a compensated and red dot equipped (slide ride at that) Glock then shares that the special units tried S_I type 40S&W pistols and found them wanting.

I shot Open USPSA for several years (long time ago) and saw S_I 2011s dominate Open and Limited while modified Glocks with dots and comps typically are seen as problematic in Open. I assume the difference is that the Roland Specials are running "normal" 9mm and are not being destroyed by a steady diet of "9mm Major".

[DocGKR]

The 2011's that did not work out were .40's.

2011's and associated magazines don't necessarily hold up well to sustained austere field conditions...

[orionz06]

And I've pieced together the Roland minus KKM barrel/comp. I'm dying to complete this Han Solo blaster and give it a run because I'm sure it's everything Doc and others have made it out to be. BUT, based on my experience trying to AIWB a Brig Tac with similar overall length, I know that I would never carry it and another fun gun would simply distract me from my current pistol goals.

I wish one of you jokers with the comp lived closer to me.

I'm a sample of one but having tried a tremendous number of AIWB holsters I do believe slide size and shape plays into it. I wouldn't rule this out on the Brig Tac experiences.

[Luke]

Just try a 34 length AIWBA holster. If it works then the Roland will work.

[DocGKR]

"Just try a 34 length AIWBA holster. If it works then the Roland will work."

Yup...

[StraitR]

I'm a sample of one but having tried a tremendous number of AIWB holsters I do believe slide size and shape plays into it. I wouldn't rule this out on the Brig Tac experiences.


Just try a 34 length AIWBA holster. If it works then the Roland will work.

The problem was specifically the length. For about the last four years I've comfortably carried a 19 in a Keeper made for a 17. The Brig Tac poked me in the leg and stomach when sitting (and I carry centerline at 12:30ish). It was tolerable for brief periods of time, but I've wore the 19 and a 17 for fourteen hours a day, week after week. I have the same issue with 5" 1911's.

[Cool Breeze]

What is the modified grip force adapter beaver tail that the specs say? It looks like a standard glock back strap to me. I ask because I love the feel of the grip force adapter but the damn thing kept popping off and it was a bitch to get back on. Everytime it came off or I had to take it off to take apart the pistol... It took a force of nature to stretch the grip force adapter around so I could fit the pin through it. I tried sanding parts of it too and still no luck.. I just eventually took it off despite that I felt it gave me a more natural point of aim with the pistol.

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[EricM]

It took a force of nature to stretch the grip force adapter around so I could fit the pin through it.

Apologies if you've already tried this approach, but I've had good luck snapping the Grip Force Adapter around over a partially-extended pin, vs. holding it in place and then trying to insert the pin. Here's a video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWPspMU-mFg)

[HCM]

I am glad that the warriors at the tip of the spear are developing the best "kit" that meets their unique requirements. However, it is interesting in this thread that highlights a compensated and red dot equipped (slide ride at that) Glock then shares that the special units tried S_I type 40S&W pistols and found them wanting.

I shot Open USPSA for several years (long time ago) and saw S_I 2011s dominate Open and Limited while modified Glocks with dots and comps typically are seen as problematic in Open. I assume the difference is that the Roland Specials are running "normal" 9mm and are not being destroyed by a steady diet of "9mm Major".

Some more info on the STI 40 cal 2011's. http://weaponsman.com/?p=19436

[HCM]

What is the modified grip force adapter beaver tail that the specs say? It looks like a standard glock back strap to me. I ask because I love the feel of the grip force adapter but the damn thing kept popping off and it was a bitch to get back on. Everytime it came off or I had to take it off to take apart the pistol... It took a force of nature to stretch the grip force adapter around so I could fit the pin through it. I tried sanding parts of it too and still no luck.. I just eventually took it off despite that I felt it gave me a more natural point of aim with the pistol.

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The last GFA I installed I popped it on by making a "tourniquet" with a rag and a screw driver and tightening it down till it popped on.

[Cool Breeze]

Apologies if you've already tried this approach, but I've had good luck snapping the Grip Force Adapter around over a partially-extended pin, vs. holding it in place and then trying to insert the pin. Here's a video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWPspMU-mFg)
No apologies necessary. Yes, thank you I did try that but no luck with both of the ones sent to me... Even after sanding down.

The last GFA I installed I popped it on by making a "tourniquet" with a rag and a screw driver and tightening it down till it popped on.
I'm amazed by the concept of this. I tried everything I could think of but just gave up because I thought I was going to destroy my frame. I might have to dig into my box of gun crap that ended up not working and try this out. Good to know I was not the only one that couldn't get the damn thing on by the instructions. Thanks HCM!

On another note I still don't understand gfa spec on the photo... Looks like a glock back strap to me.

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[HCM]

No apologies necessary. Yes, thank you I did try that but no luck with both of the ones sent to me... Even after sanding down.

I'm amazed by the concept of this. I tried everything I could think of but just gave up because I thought I was going to destroy my frame. I might have to dig into my box of gun crap that ended up not working and try this out. Good to know I was not the only one that couldn't get the damn thing on by the instructions. Thanks HCM!

On another note I still don't understand gfa spec on the photo... Looks like a glock back strap to me.

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I wouldn't go 100% off the G&A photo. I think the original was a Gen 3 which was stippled and had a GFA with a portion of the grip part trimmed and stippled to match like many were doing here on PF a few years ago when GFAs were the hotness.

Speaking of GFAs IME they snap onto Gen 4's easier than Gen 3s but the TQ will get it on there.

[rob_s]

I think that for every Tier 1 shooter that thinks "X is THE answer", you'll fing some other just as experienced and qualified that thinks "Y" is...

Sofuckingmuchthis

What "tier one" guy you like on the internet is largely determined by which one puts forth an opinion that you already agree with.

[Hambo]

Sofuckingmuchthis

What "tier one" guy you like on the internet is largely determined by which one puts forth an opinion that you already agree with.

Same as most things in life.

[orionz06]

I've spent more for far less fun. This freakin' comp is the most fun I've ever had shooting a Glock and I dig Glocks. I can't wait for the daughter in laws to get a chance to try it.


It's freakin a lot of fun.

Shame that no one else actually shoots because it's fun.

[HCM]

in relation to the "Roland Special", about the 12:00 minute mark Roland discusses what lead him to RDS on a pistol.



http://youtu.be/m8-uXFpdAZQ

[GRV]

Stellar stuff.

[Cool Breeze]

I didn't get a chance to read this whole thread, but did read some of it. It is still not clear to me his background and what he does and who he works for. I'm not sure if his identity is suppose to be kept a secret but doing guns and ammo articles and you tube videos makes me think it's not that big of a deal for this info to be released. Can anyone enlighten?

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[SLG]

I didn't get a chance to read this whole thread, but did read some of it. It is still not clear to me his background and what he does and who he works for. I'm not sure if his identity is suppose to be kept a secret but doing guns and ammo articles and you tube videos makes me think it's not that big of a deal for this info to be released. Can anyone enlighten?

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Suffice it to say, he is a real deal guy. The gun however, was not born of any operational requirement, and is not driven by military need.

[Default.mp3]

I didn't get a chance to read this whole thread, but did read some of it. It is still not clear to me his background and what he does and who he works for. I'm not sure if his identity is suppose to be kept a secret but doing guns and ammo articles and you tube videos makes me think it's not that big of a deal for this info to be released. Can anyone enlighten?Member of the US Army SMU, IIRC; he's been in for awhile, I've heard that he's considering separating due to his age. He used to be quite active on Lightfighter, now mostly spends his time with the whole Primary & Secondary group.

[HCM]

Member of the US Army SMU, IIRC; he's been in for awhile, I've heard that he's considering separating due to his age. He used to be quite active on Lightfighter, now mostly spends his time with the whole Primary & Secondary group.

Also looking at getting into the training business when he retires, though I believe more in the MIL/GOV contracting side.

Dove asked about trigger modifications - it's addressed here:


http://youtu.be/JshMcZCAwcA

All or part of a Wolf spring kit, depending on caliber but otherwise stock.

[GRV]

Dove asked about trigger modifications - it's addressed here:

[...]

All or part of a Wolf spring kit, depending on caliber but otherwise stock.

I have to say, I'm really appreciating these videos. The whole thing is a lot clearer.

Stock parts is not the same thing as stock. I'm not totally convinced that there isn't polishing going on, and that feels like a bigger wildcard in a serious use gun than anything else to me....but admittedly I don't have any experience here.

The video claims that, after much experimentation and consultation, it was decided that one must come down on the side of reliability over slim performance gains, and that stock is the way to go......so it's really not clear to me why the Wolff parts were chosen...The story doesn't fully add up.

[HCM]

I have to say, I'm really appreciating these videos. The whole thing is a lot clearer.

Stock parts is not the same thing as stock. I'm not totally convinced that there isn't polishing going on, and that feels like a bigger wildcard in a serious use gun than anything else to me....but admittedly I don't have any experience here.

The video claims that, after much experimentation and consultation, it was decided that one must come down on the side of reliability over slim performance gains, and that stock is the way to go......so it's really not clear to me why the Wolff parts were chosen...The story doesn't fully add up.

If you got free, free range time, and were paid to shoot and dry fire on a regular and frequent basis, those parts would polish themselves via wear fairly quickly. All a proper $.25 trigger job does is replicate a gun with a broken in trigger.

I don't own any aftermarket Glock triggers or trigger parts. However, im intrigued by the idea of coating all of the stock Glock fire control parts with Robar NP3 as mentioned by Chuck Haggard.

If you shoot high-volume you will be replacing springs on a regular basis. Wolf springs are pretty well better in general and Wolf manufactures OEM Springs for many manufacturers. There are also agencies which is wolf replacement springs as spam replacements for their duty weapons. My own agency issued Beretta 90 6D brigadiers years ago. We had constant issues with broken trigger return springs until we transitioned to the Wolf replacement for all 18k guns.

[HCM]

You'll note in the videos, Roland freely admits he's not a "gun guy". He doesn't get too much into the weeds. He Is an end-user, who try stuff or combinations of stuff and adopts what works.

This is not uncommon in LE/MIL. For example Scott Reitz from ITTS will tell you, he knows marksmanship, tactics and weapons employment but he freely admits, he knows more about saltwater fishing gear then about the details of weapon systems otner than the ones he employs.