ND at the range

[hufnagel]

So this is a tough one to write up.

I'd been promising to take my kid (8 year old son) to the range for a couple weeks now, and with having Friday off it seemed like a perfect opportunity. This would be about his 12th trip to the range with me, so he's well versed on the rules and protocols, and has shot both pistol and rifle numerous times. We loaded up and rolled out around 11 and were setting up shop by 11:30. First 20 or so rounds through his Henry Youth lever action are going well and he's shooting straight paper. He decides during a cease fire and target change for the other people there he wants to shoot the "tonsil." It's a polymer reactive target about 2" in diameter that hangs down. You hit it and it swings up and drops back into place.

A note about my range: it's an old club and indoor range, and doesn't have returning targets. We use a common moving firing line so everyone has to agree on the distance. I a while back made up a PVC based target stand so I can shoot shorter distances while everyone else can shoot the full 25 yard of the range. We were using this stand at a distance of 10 meters (it's what's marked on the wall), the same distance the air pistol guys like to use.

He loads up the full 13 compliment into the tube and takes his first couple shots... miss, miss, hit! As he's cycling the action the cardboard backer that's holding it up folds over. No biggie, I'd put the clamps low so as to lessen the chance of him hitting them. The other two people there see it fold, they look at me, and we go range cold for me to trot down, move the clamps so it doesn't fold over again, and come back. 10 seconds max. As i'm starting back I hear a shot fired. I start looking at the other two gentlemen to see who's ass i'm about to rip 2 new assholes into, when I realize it wasn't a 9mm that they'd been shooting but a .22. My son's words were to the effect of "it wasn't on safe, so I wanted to make it safe while you were fixing the target!"

A note about the rifle: Henry's rifles (at least all the ones I have) have a safety position you engage from the hammer. You have pull the hammer back slightly until it clicks. That locks the trigger from working until you either cock the hammer fully or cycle the action.

He had decided while I was down range to try and make the rifle safe. However it was cocked and chambered with a live round. To engage the safety you need to hold the trigger back and SLOWLY lower the hammer, then semi-cock the hammer. That obviously didn't go as planned. After looking at the position of the rifle on the table (he never picked it up to try and safe it) I realized that about 2 seconds before the shot broke I'd been standing where it was pointed. That ended our range outing immediately.

After going over all of this for a couple hours I've come to the following conclusions:
1) People easily forget safety rules you've drilled into them, especially when they get an idea in their heads.
2) The standing club rule of TOUCH NOTHING ON THE BENCHES WHEN PEOPLE ARE DOWNRANGE isn't enough consideration.
3) Clear the breech or empty the firearm completely when going downrange and not taking whomever is with me along, and get chamber flags for .22lr caliber firearms.
4) Getting shot at really pisses me off.

I've gotten complacent about the state of the weapons on the tables. I've justified that "if no one's touching it, it doesn't matter if it's loaded, it won't go off." That stops today.

[Dagga Boy]

Thanks for the debrief....we all learn from failures. We have all gotten lazy about down loading guns before going down range and leaving hot guns on the deck or benched. This should be a no go for many reasons. When you don't have physical of a loaded gun, someone else can mess with it. Best practice, unload and leave in an action open condition. Thanks for the reinforcement.

[nycnoob]

After going over all of this for a couple hours I've come to the following conclusions:
1) People easily forget safety rules you've drilled into them, especially when they get an idea in their heads.



I do not think this is forgetfulness. To me the issue is clear thinking about the implications of the four rules which is much harder to get across. Your son thought he was doing the right thing by putting it on safe, infact he was being "safer than you were" he did not understand the rule about "no touching" overrode the rule about "putting on safe".

I remember when I started the four rules gave me fit. They were simple enough for a beginner to understand but too vague to understand what they meant in various situations I found myself in. I could not figure out the how to logically infer, much of the "range attitude" that I was eager to learn. My background is mathematics and logic and the different interpretations (is nuances the correct issue here?) that instructors gave to those four statements especially issues about rule 1, and how we could ever dry fire was hard to get my head around at first. I do not think most shooter appreciate this.

[Lomshek]

After going over all of this for a couple hours I've come to the following conclusions:
1) People easily forget safety rules you've drilled into them, especially when they get an idea in their heads.
2) The standing club rule of TOUCH NOTHING ON THE BENCHES WHEN PEOPLE ARE DOWNRANGE isn't enough consideration.
3) Clear the breech or empty the firearm completely when going downrange and not taking whomever is with me along, and get chamber flags for .22lr caliber firearms.
4) Getting shot at really pisses me off.

I've gotten complacent about the state of the weapons on the tables. I've justified that "if no one's touching it, it doesn't matter if it's loaded, it won't go off." That stops today.

Everything you say there is 100% correct. Hopefully you weren't too harsh on the kid. As you say it is you who was complacent and your example is all he knows to follow. Like so many others he thought he could take it 1 step further on his own because it's just "one more thing".

Use it as the terrifying lesson it was and have an adult discussion with your son about the changes you are making to your procedures to make sure that can never happen again if you haven't already. As awful as I would feel getting shot accidentally by my kid I would feel worse for setting up the situation where that can happen.

Thanks for posting your experience so we can all learn from it.

I totally agree about chamber flags when going downrange.

[GJM]

Shooting this winter, I have lost track of how many people I have caught handling weapons behind me, when I am down range in our own berm. The normal excuses apply -- it isn't loaded, it is in a holster, the action is locked back....... I have given up being subtle, and just walk up to the person, tell them what they are doing is wrong, and basically tell them to get out of our bay.

[HCM]

Glad you are both unhurt.

Lomshek really hit the nail on the head with "just one more thing". This seems to be the leading cause of ND's I've seen during admin handling and dry practice.

[Clobbersaurus]

Thanks for posting, these threads are a great reminder to all.

[Dagga Boy]

Shooting this winter, I have lost track of how many people I have caught handling weapons behind me, when I am down range in our own berm. The normal excuses apply -- it isn't loaded, it is in a holster, the action is locked back....... I have given up being subtle, and just walk up to the person, tell them what they are doing is wrong, and basically tell them to get out of our bay.

What actually happens is GJM talks to the offender and Charlie stands behind him staring at the offender with her hands dangling and fingers twitching. GJM just holds up the timer and says "Don't make me hit the button"....smart offenders run.:o

[hufnagel]

Empty Chamber Safety Flags Rifle Pistol Range (http://www.ebay.com/itm/182045290861?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

Bought 2 packs, because I frequently take 6+ firearms when I do an intro/demo for newbies. I'll put 6 in the big gun case, at least 2 in my big range bag, and one in my small range bag, an one in each of my rifle cases. NO excuse to not use them then.

[JV_]

Shooting this winter, I have lost track of how many people I have caught handling weapons behind me, when I am down range in our own berm.

At one range I used to frequent, people would go downrange while you're still shooting!! They would just start walking downrange to fix their target. I caught them out of the corner of my eye. They thought that since they were 10 benches over, and no one was in between, it was just fine. We had words over it, 5 minutes later, they did it again. I left shortly after.

[BN]

Empty Chamber Safety Flags Rifle Pistol Range (http://www.ebay.com/itm/182045290861?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT)

Bought 2 packs, because I frequently take 6+ firearms when I do an intro/demo for newbies. I'll put 6 in the big gun case, at least 2 in my big range bag, and one in my small range bag, an one in each of my rifle cases. NO excuse to not use them then.

I hope that your son doesn't want to quit shooting because of this. Try to get him back on the range as soon as possible. Kids can overthink things and think they have done something horribly wrong.

I have some of the chamber flags like posted. They don't fit my rim fire rifles very well. I have been using zip ties as a chamber flag.

Thanks for posting this so we all can be reminded about how easy it is to mess up. :(

[hufnagel]

I don't think getting him back out there will be a problem.
We will, however, be reviewing thing in greater detail from now on. I'm seriously considering writing up a Checklist to keep in the bags.

[Cheap Shot]

I don't think getting him back out there will be a problem.
We will, however, be reviewing thing in greater detail from now on. I'm seriously considering writing up a Checklist to keep in the bags.

My .02

Like your son, I had a ND (trying to slowly lower hammer on a live rd) with a lever action. Gun was pointed in a safe direction, luckily no one hurt, but shook me up and still does.

Many years later I had the opportunity to sell one of my lever actions. A co worker wanted to buy for his son. I would not sell it to him and explained why. This is my personal decision/opinion but I don't feel a lever action is the best gun for teaching or use by anyone other than an adult, and even then not the best option for an me personally.

Glad everyone's safe and thanks for posting Huf. I'll be following this thread to learn how I can improve my safety with a lever action.

[Dave J]

This thread was difficult for me to read.

In 2008, a support unit in my battalion lost a soldier to a very similar ND. A squad was cleaning weapons after returning from checkpoint duty, when a soldier noticed a Mossberg 500 lying on a table was off safe. In attempting to apply the safety, he discharged the weapon into a 34-y/o PFC who happened to be in the wrong place, with devastating results. Like most accidents, there were multiple failures leading up to it, but the final mistake was by a young man who thought he was doing the right thing by applying the safety...yet was insufficiently familiar with shotgun manipulation to apply it without losing track of where his other fingers were going, and he lacked the overall awareness and judgement to recognize that Rules 1, 2, and 3 should have taken priority.

RIP Jennifer Cole.

I now have two young boys who are nearly old enough for their first range trip. This is a good reminder for me to take nothing for granted. They can recite the four rules all day, but aren't experienced enough to always make good decisions in context.

[BN]

While I imagine you'll be having unloaded guns before going down range now, would a lever action with the action open and the lever down be more safe?

[hufnagel]

I want to give all of you my heartfelt thanks. I appreciate the clear, thoughtful discussion and commentary, without judgement. If nothing else it's one of the things I value most about P-F. I've commented about this incident in a couple other places and the responses were less... constructive.

[CrazyHorse5.0]

I want to give all of you my heartfelt thanks. I appreciate the clear, thoughtful discussion and commentary, without judgement. If nothing else it's one of the things I value most about P-F. I've commented about this incident in a couple other places and the responses were less... constructive.

I'm glad you're both ok, thank you for posting. As others have stated, it's a reminder for all of us.

I'm new to P-F....I quickly noticed the responses here are constructive and not just keyboard commandos running off at the mouth, like other forums. Definitely a nice change of pace for me.

[That Guy]

At one range I used to frequent, people would go downrange while you're still shooting!!

On the plus side, other people going downrange before you're done shooting is a lot more pleasant than when people start firing before you make it back to the firing line. :mad:

[DueSpada]

Thanks all who made this thread. These serious events well told can make your stomach hit the ground thinking about them, keeps the complacency at bay.

[JSGlock34]

Shooting this winter, I have lost track of how many people I have caught handling weapons behind me, when I am down range in our own berm. The normal excuses apply -- it isn't loaded, it is in a holster, the action is locked back....... I have given up being subtle, and just walk up to the person, tell them what they are doing is wrong, and basically tell them to get out of our bay.

About three weeks ago I was muzzled in the parking lot when coming out of my local range. I don't know why the pistol was out (I'm thinking one guy may have been selling the handgun to the other, but I honestly don't care) but suddenly I was channeling my old Drill Sergeant.

I've been thinking about changing ranges since this incident, as it really damaged my calm. I go to the range on the weekend to enjoy my hobby, not to get royally pissed off. And I really should no longer be surprised at the reaction of these guys...they just pointed a gun at me in the middle of a public parking lot (and the range isn't the only business there), yet I'm the jerk? I'm getting angry again just writing about it...

And thanks to the OP for starting the thread...I have a boy who I plan to start taking to the range in the next year or so. I used to belong to a range that is not as convenient to my home, but after the recent incident in the parking lot I reflected on the fact that my older range had a stronger safety culture, and I'll feel more comfortable introducing my son to shooting there. When I introduce my son to shooting, safety is my number one consideration, and I appreciate you sharing your experience so we could all learn from it. Thankfully no one was hurt.

[SecondsCount]

Hufnagel- I'm glad nobody was hurt and I'm sure the situation will cause your son to rethink his actions in the future.

At the range that I am a volunteer RO, we have volunteer range officers that upon a cease fire ask everyone to clear their guns, set them on the bench, and stand behind a line that is about 5 feet back from the bench. The RO checks to be certain that the guns are clear before allowing anyone to go down range and touching anything on the bench is frowned upon during that time. Before people are allowed to begin shooting again, multiple ROs confirm that the range is clear of people.

Leaving a hot gun on the bench when going downrange is a recipe for disaster.

[CADFather]

I've had people begin firing before I returned to the line a couple of times, it always pisses me off that I can't stay at the range, nor do I want to with someone there that has that mentality. But in the OP's situation it becomes a learning opportunity for the son as well as Dad.

CAD