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View Full Version : Theft turns to Aggravated Robbery on video



Savage Hands
10-17-2011, 08:09 AM
http://youtu.be/7H6BgWecVWE

Too bad this punk ass didn't run into a SouthNarc student :mad:

mscott327
10-17-2011, 08:39 AM
What did I miss? What did he grab off the table? Is that aggravated Robbery because two people were involved?
Correct me if Im wrong but isnt aggravated robbery "involves the theft of possessions from an individual that includes the use of either force or intimidation".
Again, Correct me if i'm wrong but I didn't see any intimidation, he just grabbed and ran.

Savage Hands
10-17-2011, 08:45 AM
Watch the second guy brandish a firearm in his waist.

ToddG
10-17-2011, 08:48 AM
Which reminds us of Tom Givens's outstanding lesson, The reason armed self defense is uncommon is because not enough people carry guns.

mscott327
10-17-2011, 09:38 AM
Watch the second guy brandish a firearm in his waist.

OH...I missed that the first two times.
I retract my previous post based on stupidity
Thanks!

It's funny that the guy being robbed just sits back down and starts eating again. Wow!

JHC
10-17-2011, 11:49 AM
[sigh] there's just no point in living in cities.

JV_
10-17-2011, 11:50 AM
It's funny that the guy being robbed just sits back down and starts eating again. Wow!I thought the same thing, it seems odd.

Savage Hands
10-17-2011, 11:51 AM
I thought the same thing, it seems odd.


I'm assuming the guy with the gun told him to sit his ass back down.


And the food is really really good? :D

JV_
10-17-2011, 11:54 AM
And the food is really really good? :DI assumed he told him to back down, but reaching for food at the end is what gave me pause. Too bad it doesn't last 10 seconds longer.

Savage Hands
10-17-2011, 11:56 AM
I assumed he told him to back down, but reaching for food at the end is what gave me pause. Too bad it doesn't last 10 seconds longer.



Not that I'm one to talk, but that guy looks like he enjoys every meal.

LOKNLOD
10-17-2011, 12:39 PM
There's a lot of interesting things going on in that video.
- Half the other people didn't even seem to notice, or acknowledge, that something was going on (sitting lady and girl w/ bike seem to at least look over)
- Even if the victim had seen the thief in time to try and block him or turn around and grab him, his enforcer buddy would have been perfectly staged to hit/stab/shoot him in the back.
- The whole place seems pretty accepting of this kind of stuff happening. Including the victim.
- He's so confident that nobody is going to do anything he turns his back to the victim and walks away slowly.

As much as I'd like to it come to blows and those guys go down hard, that would be a bad situation to be in. I'm sure whatever was in the bag wasn't worth risking your life over. Really reinforces the need to do what you can to set yourself up to avoid these kind of situations to begin with.

For those with lots more experience/training in such matters... is there realistically much the guy could have done about it, other than not being in the wrong place at the wrong time with his head in his food?

ToddG
10-17-2011, 04:11 PM
FWIW, when I saw the video the first time I assumed exactly what I think I'd assume if it happened to me: that the snatcher was a distraction and the follow on thug was going to attack. Obviously it's easy to say from the comfort of my couch after seeing through to the end, but I'm pretty sure my reaction would have been to draw and shoot the second guy as soon as he showed me he was armed and before I even took time to process what exactly he might be saying in that threatening tone...

Korenwolf
10-17-2011, 05:14 PM
The second guy was obviously brandishing his 1911 AIWB :D

longball
10-27-2011, 11:58 PM
- He's so confident that nobody is going to do anything he turns his back to the victim and walks away slowly.

... is there realistically much the guy could have done about it, other than not being in the wrong place at the wrong time with his head in his food?

Giving the guy walking away a face full of Sabre Red came to my mind first. Of course you never know what people will do after being sprayed. It could just make the situation worse, however it would do that guy some good. That kind of pain is a great teaching tool!

Tamara
10-28-2011, 06:52 AM
While not as cool as pepper spray or a lightnin' fast AIWB draw, the whole situation could have been avoided by him keeping his satchel on the ground between his foot and the wall, rather than lying there on the table in front of God and everybody, as anyone who carries a purse could tell you. ;)

longball
10-28-2011, 09:51 AM
While not as cool as pepper spray or a lightnin' fast AIWB draw, the whole situation could have been avoided by him keeping his satchel on the ground between his foot and the wall, rather than lying there on the table in front of God and everybody, as anyone who carries a purse could tell you. ;)

True, that would have been highly effective and safer but not near as fun as watching him writhe about in agony on the sidewalk.

MikeyC
10-28-2011, 06:05 PM
In all fairness the guys probably just sat down and went back to eating because he was in shock. His brian went on "auto pilot" if you will, and took on dealing with the task at hand he could handle. I've seen shooting victims just hang out and wait for help because they can't porcess anything else to do. It's not an uncommon response, but it does high light the importance of the mindset portion of training.

41magfan
10-28-2011, 07:49 PM
A couple of personal observations based purely on body language;

First, these guys have done this before. You generally don't see that kind of timing performed without practical experience - not just rehearsal.

Secondly, while we can't get inside the head of the gun-toter, my guess would be that he wouldn't hesitate to escalate if he thought it was necessary. If he was in fact so predisposed - I don't think you could present fast enough to beat him to the first shot, and at that distance he doesn't have to be good - just determined. I would never force the issue at the face-to-face distance in this scenario anyway .... it would have served no purpose. The material goods taken were long gone and escalation would have just as likely favored the bad guy. Forcing the bad guy to engage me in a gunfight is just creating a problem that doesn't exist yet.

Lastly, he felt confident turning his back on the victim for the same reason he initially chose him as a victim and that confidence was reinforced by the way the victim reacted to his brandishing move.

This old saying immediately came to mind; "If you look like food - you will be eaten."

Chuck Haggard
10-28-2011, 08:52 PM
Giving the guy walking away a face full of Sabre Red came to my mind first. Of course you never know what people will do after being sprayed. It could just make the situation worse, however it would do that guy some good. That kind of pain is a great teaching tool!


Spraying a suspect armed with a gun is an incredibly bad idea. I would likely have shot him till slidelock, or till he was down, in the back if need be.

longball
10-28-2011, 10:10 PM
Spraying a suspect armed with a gun is an incredibly bad idea. I would likely have shot him till slidelock, or till he was down, in the back if need be.

Spraying someone who is carrying a gun with OC is a bad idea but shooting them in the back until slidelock as they are walking away is supposedly a good idea? Not even close.

To clarify my position, I would NOT spray this guy with OC because I do not believe that would be safe. What I think I would do were I ever presented with that situation is to follow the guy, from a safe distance, while on the phone with 911. Reason being is that while he is walking away with the gun stuck in his pants he IS NOT a threat and you'd be hard pressed to find a judge or jury in the country that you could persuade otherwise if you "shot him till slidelock... in the back...".

Chuck Haggard
10-29-2011, 01:16 PM
Spraying someone who is carrying a gun with OC is a bad idea but shooting them in the back until slidelock as they are walking away is supposedly a good idea? Not even close.

To clarify my position, I would NOT spray this guy with OC because I do not believe that would be safe. What I think I would do were I ever presented with that situation is to follow the guy, from a safe distance, while on the phone with 911. Reason being is that while he is walking away with the gun stuck in his pants he IS NOT a threat and you'd be hard pressed to find a judge or jury in the country that you could persuade otherwise if you "shot him till slidelock... in the back...".


You might think so, however you would be mistaken.

OCing that guy would just get you shot in retaliation, and maybe everybody else on that sidewalk if the shooter had impaired vision due to the OC working at all the way it was designed and the bad guy decided to do what many armed robbers and gang bangers do, spray-and-pray, when they decide to shoot.

As for shooting that guy, read up on Garner vs Tenn., then do some reading over at the Force Science Research Center ref human reaction time. I could easily articulate a fear for my life, a need to apprehend that suspect before he robs/shoots/kills anyone else (cop think, being a career cop and all), that he was obviously a well practice professional criminal with experience in robbing people who was willing to go to guns over what could have been a simple petty theft. Announcing or otherwise doing the "drop the gun" thing very often gets good guys shot as it gives the bad guy choice of first move.



Although, out of reflex I would have likely jammed his draw and then disarmed him or shot him repeatedly from a high 2 position, so it probably wouldn't have gotten to the point that he was walking away. Since I have actually pull off such disarms on the street during the course of Terry stops, on more than one occasion, I can speak from experience there.

longball
10-29-2011, 01:43 PM
I think you should reread my last post (the one you quoted). We agree on NOT OC-ing the guy. What I wanted to convey In my first post was that it would be some funny shit to watch the guy roll around on the ground in Sabre pain. I clearly stated in my last post that I would NOT OC the guy. That said, being familiar with Tennessee vs Garner myself, I still don't believe in this case that it would be justified to shoot him in the back. Could you, (or myself for that matter) articulate a fear for your life while he was in front of you, showing the gun? Sure we could, but as he was walking away, in the manner that he was in the video...... I wouldn't chance it. To each his own though.

ToddG
10-30-2011, 06:53 AM
Without suggesting I would or wouldn't, it seems like a justifiable act under Garner to stop this armed felon -- with lethal force if necessary -- whether he's actively shooting people or not. He just used the visible threat of lethal force to commit a violent robbery. It's perfectly reasonable to act under the assumption that a non-lethal attempt to apprehend him could result in your death or the death of others.

It's extremely important to understand that Garner applies to police officers and not private citizens. The entire basis of the Court's decision revolves around Fourth Amendment law which plays no part in a private citizen exercising his right to self defense.

MDS
10-30-2011, 10:08 AM
FWIW, when I saw the video the first time I assumed exactly what I think I'd assume if it happened to me: that the snatcher was a distraction and the follow on thug was going to attack. Obviously it's easy to say from the comfort of my couch after seeing through to the end, but I'm pretty sure my reaction would have been to draw and shoot the second guy as soon as he showed me he was armed and before I even took time to process what exactly he might be saying in that threatening tone...

This is exactly how I feel about it... for about a second. Then I start to feel doubts about my ability. In my mind, the only point for a private citizen to train hard and achieve those good FAST scores, is to instill the confidence that makes Todd able to make this decision without thinking twice. I'm in a middle ground right now where a) I might do like Todd; b) I might do like the guy in the video; or c) I might try to do like Todd, fumble the draw, shoot an innocent bystander, and get killed in the process.

Sigh.

I'm going to go dry-fire my draw now... :eek:

F-Trooper05
10-30-2011, 04:17 PM
So at what point is the use of deadly force no longer justified? When the gun-toter turns his back? When he starts walking away? When he covers up the gun with his shirt? When he's no longer in sight?

JodyH
10-30-2011, 08:01 PM
So at what point is the use of deadly force no longer justified? When the gun-toter turns his back? When he starts walking away? When he covers up the gun with his shirt? When he's no longer in sight?
As a civilian... at the point you can no longer articulate why he was an immediate deadly threat to yourself or innocent third parties in the immediate vicinity.
I would have had no problem shooting him in the back as he walked away with his hand at his waistband, then articulating that he was an immediate deadly threat to the women at the next table.
YMMV... and hire a good attorney.

Long tom coffin
10-30-2011, 10:43 PM
As a civilian... at the point you can no longer articulate why he was an immediate deadly threat to yourself or innocent third parties in the immediate vicinity.
I would have had no problem shooting him in the back as he walked away with his hand at his waistband, then articulating that he was an immediate deadly threat to the women at the next table.
YMMV... and hire a good attorney.

Missouri state law specifically states that deadly force is not acceptable unless the victim is in mortal fear of death or injury, or of a third party suffering from the same. I work in a law firm so I already have plenty of attorneys on tap. One of the partners, my boss, represents me in everything and his advice was "Don't say anything other than "I feared for my life" until I get there".

That said, I would have mowed that mofo down as soon as I saw a hint of a gun. If I was unable to do so prior, I would have put several rounds in him the second he turned his back on me. A foolish error on his part (turning his back) DOES NOT automatically negate the threat he presents. At any point during the turning of the back and walking down the street, he could have easily done a 180 and put a round into the fat guy. That would have been my justification.

If I was not the victim but at another table and had clear view of what was going on, I would have drawn too.