Fit vs. feel

[Chuck Whitlock]

I thought it might be interesting to see where this discussion might go.

We have often said that how a gun feels at the gun counter doesn't really have anything to do with how it shoots.
We have also discussed that gun fit can be an important element of performance ability with said firearm.

So, what is the difference? How do differentiate one from the other? How do we explain the difference to those we may be teaching or coaching?

[JV_]

Fit has to do with how well I can reach the trigger, slide stop and other critical pieces.

Feel has to do with the ergonomics/shape/design of those parts, and how it interacts with my hand. Does the grip feel like a 2x4, or a piece that's been molded to the contours of my hands.

Guns with replaceable back-straps are interesting because I've found that what feels best is not necessarily the grip which provides me the most solid grip and fastest splits.

[okie john]

One way to say it is that feel is subjective--it exists only in the hand and mind of the shooter--while fit can be measured with a set of standard drills measured with a timer and scorable targets.


Okie John

[GardoneVT]

If you didn't time it, it doesn't count.

Case in point: A USP45 feels like a cinder block in my hands. But I shoot it like a boss . A 4506 Smith feels boss in my hands,but experience has said I should never fire it in public where there's witnesses. "And then, he decocked it and shot the next lane over" doesn't look good in the After Action Reports.

[45dotACP]

Fit is a bigger deal to me...

I never liked the CZ-75 because I can barely touch the face of the trigger with the very tip of my finger in DA mode and carrying condition one isn't an option because the thumb safety isn't ergonomic for me. Berettas, in spite of being called "thicker" or "bigger" handgun allow me to get a much better contact with the trigger.

Shooting drills with each handgun isn't always an option. But honestly feel isn't such a big thing for me....I believe you can get to shooting any particular brand fairly well. Maybe a replaceable backstrap or grip options might be a nice touch. I like modifying my guns to fit my taste as my skill level changes, but regardless, there are some shooters who have laid down some impressive performances with pistols that aren't exactly mainstream...competitions have been won with Sigs, Springfields, Berettas, EAA, CZ, Glocks, and S&Ws.

[Sigfan26]

You never know until you shoot it. The CZ 75 and Browning Hi Power FEEL perfect and FIT perfect... Yet I shoot faster and more accurate with the Beretta 92, Glock 17, and 1911. When I talk to folks in the Feel/Fit crowd, they say that doesn't make sense to them. It's about you, not the gun.

[11B10]

I heard a gent say feel is overrated, simply because no one walks around with a gun in their hand 100% of the time. What truly matters is how well you can CONSISTENTLY shoot it, assuming you can properly use everything. This fact should be (and certainly is here) first in the minds of most veteran shooters. The fact that I was unable to find a mag release that worked for me on my 30S - caused me to change. Prime example of how NOT to purchase a gun. Then, a Gen 4 G19 found its way into my hands yesterday - just when I was beginning to do more than just tread financial water.

[BehindBlueI's]

The Glock 22 feels fine in my hand. Until I shoot it. Then it feels like it hates me and wants to escape.

[GRV]

What metrics do you use to discern which gun is a better match?

How much of this can really be compared side-by-side simultaneously? Is there not a pretty big "warming up" period with a lot of guns?

[Chuck Whitlock]

Good answers all around.



What truly matters is how well you can CONSISTENTLY shoot it, assuming you can properly use everything. This fact should be (and certainly is here) first in the minds of most veteran shooters.


You never know until you shoot it.



Shooting drills with each handgun isn't always an option.



How much of this can really be compared side-by-side simultaneously? Is there not a pretty big "warming up" period with a lot of guns?

Here is kind of where I'm going with this. While the members of our "tribe" are inclined to work through these issues until we find "The One", what of those who are new to this whole thing? That don't know what they don't know? That come to us for advise and/or guidance?



One way to say it is that feel is subjective--it exists only in the hand and mind of the shooter--while fit can be measured with a set of standard drills measured with a timer and scorable targets.


Okie John

Fit has to do with how well I can reach the trigger, slide stop and other critical pieces.
Feel has to do with the ergonomics/shape/design of those parts, and how it interacts with my hand. Does the grip feel like a 2x4, or a piece that's been molded to the contours of my hands.

These are pretty good explanations.


Looking forward to hearing more.

[ReverendMeat]

Good answers all around.
Here is kind of where I'm going with this. While the members of our "tribe" are inclined to work through these issues until we find "The One", what of those who are new to this whole thing? That don't know what they don't know? That come to us for advise and/or guidance?


For somebody who's that new, if they can reach and manipulate all the controls without having to break their grip too much, can see the sights, can squeeze the trigger without undue effort while maintaining a steady sight picture, then I don't think it really matters what gun they get or how it "feels" unless there's something about it that's noticeably unpleasant. Chances are they'll be able to shoot most pistols equally well (or equally poorly) and there's just no way to tell what actually works best or what doesn't without shooting.

Example: The new "E2" grips on SIG pistols feel great to me. As does the Gen 4 G17. I would say they both really "feel good in the hand." But after a single range session with each, I went out and ordered two piece hogue grips, and installed the medium backstrap, respectively. Configured as such, they both feel too bulky and in the case of the Glock, just kind of weird in general, but when it comes to shooting either at speed I get MUCH more consistent results.

Further, with the Sig P226, only after shooting it did I find that I have the tendency to squeeze the pistol with my support hand during recoil in such a way that I would hit the magazine release. Not good, embarrassing, couldn't fix without significantly altering my support hand grip, gun got sold.

On the other side of the coin, "hand feel" alone is enough to turn me away from some guns. First to mind is the Walther PK380, which is a very silly gun for a couple of reasons, but it has really sharp poky bits on the grip near the mag release that are uncomfortable enough just holding the thing, let alone shooting it.

[SecondsCount]

The Glock 22 feels fine in my hand. Until I shoot it. Then it feels like it hates me and wants to escape.

So true!

[okie john]

While the members of our "tribe" are inclined to work through these issues until we find "The One", what of those who are new to this whole thing? That don't know what they don't know? That come to us for advise and/or guidance?

Glock 19 with factory night sights, 3 cases of ammo, good carry setup, and training. They don't understand the question yet, so they can't understand the answer.


Okie John

[Joe in PNG]

The whole 'get the gun that feels best' irritates the snot out of me. And this is inevitably tied to other bits of guncounter rubbish like "caliber that starts with a .4", or a push to some sort of derp tier, special snowflake hipster gun.

As Okie John said, Glock 19, training, and lots and lots of shooting will get the utter novice to a point where he knows what he wants or needs.

[Wondering Beard]

Glock 19 with factory night sights, 3 cases of ammo, good carry setup, and training. They don't understand the question yet, so they can't understand the answer.


Okie John

So long as they don't have tiny hands and can only handle a single stack gun.

Also, a gun that fits well can encourage those who want to have a gun but are new to actually go shoot it.

None of this is obvious or easy, my outlook is "gun that fits first (i.e. you can shoot it well), gun that feels good later". That's for the folks with little or no experience,

For the rest of us? we can go play and experiment with whatever we want.

P.S. my first gun was gen2 G19 within a year or so of when they came out; that was followed soon thereafter by a John Farnam class and that led to me understanding better what good carry equipment was.

[Chuck Whitlock]

Glock 19 with factory night sights, 3 cases of ammo, good carry setup, and training. They don't understand the question yet, so they can't understand the answer.

I feel that this is the general default answer.........


So long as they don't have tiny hands and can only handle a single stack gun.

.........as long as we don't get dogmatic about it, and realize that exceptions, such as the one above, do exist.

[JTQ]

Fit is a bigger deal to me...

I never liked the CZ-75 because I can barely touch the face of the trigger with the very tip of my finger in DA mode and carrying condition one isn't an option because the thumb safety isn't ergonomic for me. Berettas, in spite of being called "thicker" or "bigger" handgun allow me to get a much better contact with the trigger.

This is me exactly.

The CZ75 has always felt good to me, but your description of the fit for you is exactly what I experience with the CZ75. I can't count the number of posts across any number of forums where folks are looking for a small hand friendly double stack auto and invariably there are bunches of recommendations for the CZ75. Man, that's a head scratcher for me. I don't consider the CZ75 small hand friendly at all.

Feeling good just holding the gun is one thing, but trying to work a trigger that is just barely within your reach in double action mode, or a thumb safety that is like a little half of a jelly bean, at speed, is another thing.

[GardoneVT]

What metrics do you use to discern which gun is a better match?

How much of this can really be compared side-by-side simultaneously? Is there not a pretty big "warming up" period with a lot of guns?

Here's my take.

Be advised, math follows.


Realistically we face a chicken/egg problem here. To make an informed decision about which pistol to buy , based on "feel" or otherwise, you need objective baseline data. This is a problem for the first timer because by definition they won't have any.

I don't live in a place awesome enough to have a business where one can rent a gun for a week , carry it, and shoot before deciding to purchase. I doubt anyone with an Ordinary Joe job reading this does either.

So our newbies gonna hafta put some cash on the table.

Glock 19, retail: $600 including tax.
1,000 round 9mm, South Dakota price: $300
Competent pistol class:$800

Total spent : $1,700.

Not exactly pocket money to be sure. But given the stakes involved, it's a bargain. You can't even get a MacBook laptop new for $1700 - but you can build competent, life saving skill and a baseline for deciding which gun to get next , if necessary.

One thing is certain: that approach is way cheaper then buying guns at the counter hoping they shoot as well as they point. Imagine the justified ridicule a man would get if he said he was buying a new car for his family after merely opening the drivers door once.

[JAD]

any number of forums where folks are looking for a small hand friendly double stack auto and invariably there are bunches of recommendations for the CZ75. .

Not from this small handed dude.

There are a few double stacks that work ok, but I mostly think that it's just the effect of more dogmatic thinking when people feel pressed to use a double column gun. More capacity is nice and good, but if it makes it hard to get hits and hard to get better it's probably not worth the squeeze. I have spent more money and wasted more time trying to find q double stack that I could shoot than lots of guys claim to have spent trying to find a 1911 that works.

[S Jenks]

Further, with the Sig P226, only after shooting it did I find that I have the tendency to squeeze the pistol with my support hand during recoil in such a way that I would hit the magazine release. Not good, embarrassing, couldn't fix without significantly altering my support hand grip, gun got sold.

This is a total aside, but I had the same issue with a P226 SAO and G10 grips. I don't know if I would have had the same issue with the stock grips as I installed them before my first range trip and was new to the P226.

A touch of JB Weld around the mag release, followed by a few minutes with a file and the problem is gone. Fugly but functional.

[Joe in PNG]

Regarding the $800 class, the downright n00b is probably best served by a pure fundamentals, NRA basic type class. One heavy on 4 rules, basic operation, basic marksmanship, ect.
That LAV class probably isn't the best starting position for the person who's never ever shot before.

After they get that down, then they ought to look at the more defense orientated classes.