Obama Poses In Front of Che Guevara Mural

[Chance]

From Time magazine (http://time.com/4266498/obama-che-guevara-cuba/):


President Barack Obama sparked outrage among some social media users on Monday when he was photographed in front of a mural of Marxist revolutionary Che Guevara in Cuba.

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I lack sufficient snark, so I'll just leave this here: :(

[Glenn E. Meyer]

BTW, I also saw a series of pictures of Reagan standing under a statue of Lenin and Bush 1 doing the same thing under a picture of Mao.

Just saying ...

[JV_]

BTW, I also saw a series of pictures of Reagan standing under a statue of Lenin and Bush 1 doing the same thing under a picture of Mao.

Just saying ...

http://cloudfront.mediamatters.org/static/uploader/image/2016/03/21/reagan_vladimirlenin.jpg

[Chance]

BTW, I also saw a series of pictures of Reagan standing under a statue of Lenin and Bush 1 doing the same thing under a picture of Mao.

Just saying ...

I would argue that parallel faux pas do not constitute sufficient excuse. I would make a more nuanced argument, but I'm procrastinating enough as it is.

[Peally]

Why are we trying to become allies with that shithole again? It seems I'm in need of constant explanation.

[Lon]

Why are we trying to become allies with that shithole again? It seems I'm in need of constant explanation.

Because cigars.

[Jeep]

BTW, I also saw a series of pictures of Reagan standing under a statue of Lenin and Bush 1 doing the same thing under a picture of Mao.

Just saying ...

Yep, but Reagan hated communism and worked to make it collapse. Obama? Not so much, I think.

Indeed, given his self-described focus on grievance studies when he was in college--studies that do not seem to have been paralleled by any deep study into communism in practice, my guess is that Obama has no idea that Che was not only a fervent totalitarian communist, but an eager hands-on practitioner of 'revolutionary justice" who enjoyed personally executing the men he condemned.

[Wondering Beard]

Because cigars.

That would be for Bill Clinton.

For Obama? I don't even try anymore.

[NEPAKevin]

There is a gif all over Twitter of Obama and Castro together at a ball Game doing the wave. Guess when you don't have to worry about reelection, you don't have to worry about optics.

https://twitter.com/charliespiering/status/712343955275431936

[Josh Runkle]

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160322/a1a0712e93ac10850e0f13dfa746627b.jpg

Look, sometimes backgrounds don't always get the full "picture" right. Sometimes.

[Glenn E. Meyer]

Policy is different from pictures. That was my point. I'm not getting excited about the picture. Surface crap is flooding politics right now.

I'm wearing a shirt that was made in VietNam and had lunch with a VietNam vet. Geopolitics is complicated. It is reasonable to think that with relations with Cuba we can flood them with monetary investments and made them economically closer and thus more dependent on us. It's an empirical question.

We are buddies with the horror of Saudi Arabia - so what else is new?

[TGS]

I don't see the outrage.

It's a picture of him and his entourage in a ceremony, and the mural is what appears to be hundreds of yards away; he's not posing in a fucking che shirt, for christs sake. Considering it's a former COMBLOC country, there's probably displays like that or of other Communist figures all over the damn place. Inconsequential to me, just as it'd be ridiculous for someone to get pissed off if the foreign minister of antiamericastan was in a picture where an American flag was blowing in the background (we display a crazy amount of flags compared to most countries).

If this picture offends you, get the fuck over yourself.

[Drang]

Reagan would certainly have been aware of the irony of a snapshot of him in front of a bust of Lenin.
Is Obama aware of Che Guevera's attitude towards, say, Africans?

[Chance]

Considering it's a former COMBLOC country, there's probably displays like that or of other Communist figures all over the damn place.

Absolutely. Plastered over every wall. A problem easily avoided by not visiting said country.


If this picture offends you, get the fuck over yourself.

"Offended" is such a strong word. "Disappointingly amused" is not a word. Pardon me, while I consult a thesaurus....

[TGS]

Absolutely. Plastered over every wall. A problem easily avoided by not visiting said country.

Why would we not visit them? Why would we not normalize relations with them?

[Chance]

Why would we not visit them? Why would we not normalize relations with them?

From the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/21/world/americas/cuba-obama-visit-havana-dissidents.html):


But hours before Air Force One landed at José Martí International Airport, the challenges inherent in normalizing relations with a Communist police state were laid bare, as dozens of arrests were made at the weekly march of Ladies in White, a prominent dissident group.

The protest, which takes place most Sundays outside a suburban church here, was widely seen as a test of Cuba’s tolerance for dissent during the presidential trip, and the arrests confirmed that Cuba was maintaining its long history of repressive tactics, if not intensifying their reach.

From an open letter (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/thor-halvorssen/an-open-letter-to-urban-o_b_1895353.html) to Urban Outfitters (who was selling shirts with Che on them) from the founder of Human Rights Foundation:


Guevara undoubtedly played a key role in the overthrow of the dictatorial Batista regime in January of 1959. However, despite promises of a new democratic government, within a few months he and Fidel Castro had designed and installed a full-blown police state that deprived the overwhelming majority of Cuban citizens of democracy and human rights.

From 1959 to 1960, the new government carried out summary executions of at least 1,118 people by firing squad. Guevara himself presided over the notorious La Cabaña prison, where hundreds of the executions took place. For comparison’s sake, the Batista regime was responsible for 747 noncombatant deaths between 1952 and 1959. The Cuban revolution under the direction of Guevara also saw the rise of forced labor camps which gave way a few years later to full-scale concentration camps. These were filled with dissidents, homosexuals, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Afro-Cuban priests, and anyone else who had committed “crimes” against the new moral revolution.

These are not good people. They've done bad things in the past, and are doing bad things right now. Is it too much to ask that the leader of the free world not be photographed in the circle jerk?

I guess I'm just an idealistic dreamer....

[TGS]

None of what you wrote is a reason to have no diplomatic relations with a country, at least in the context of how the US has conducted diplomatic business since its inception.

Quite the contrary, diplomatic relations are how you go about addressing things like fugitives, human rights, ect.

Not attributing to you, but relevant: Being from NJ and having a social circle filled with military and various public service personnel, one of the things that gets under my skin with this whole affair was the outcry against opening diplomatic channels with Cuba due to Cuba housing a fugitive who murdered a NJ State Trooper. If they weren't so fucking stupid they'd realize that diplomatic channels are the only way to even have a remote chance at recovering Chesimard short of extraordinary rendition (which is not a realistic option in itself).

[Joe in PNG]

An influx of American tourist would pretty much kill off Cuban communism.

[Drang]

Arguably, opening diplomatic relations, starting a luxury resort or three, letting cruise ships in, maybe a cigar "tasting" tour (although I understand the crop has declined in the last half century), would bring so much gringo cash that the inevitable collapse of this so-called socialist paradise would accelerate.
Or, maybe it would give the regime the means to prop it up for a few more weekends at Bernies.
So to speak.
(Totally inadvertent pun but I think I'll go with it anyway.)

[Chance]

None of what you wrote is a reason to have no diplomatic relations with a country, at least in the context of how the US has conducted diplomatic business since its inception.

"Not having diplomatic relations" with a country is not the same thing as personally visiting that country, where you know there's little chance you won't be photographed in front of the mural of an oppressive mass murderer.

Since you're sitting on the circle, grab some of this TGS. The silicone-based stuff is sticky, but it'll reduce chafing. :)

6676

ETA: I read your edit, and understand your rationale much better. I'm leaving this here as a testament to the importance of context.

[Joe in PNG]

Arguably, opening diplomatic relations, starting a luxury resort or three, letting cruise ships in, maybe a cigar "tasting" tour (although I understand the crop has declined in the last half century), would bring so much gringo cash that the inevitable collapse of this so-called socialist paradise would accelerate.
Or, maybe it would give the regime the means to prop it up for a few more weekends at Bernies.
So to speak.
(Totally inadvertent pun but I think I'll go with it anyway.)
The communism killer is just having a bunch of rich Yankees wandering around. Kills the government propaganda that they are living in a "Worker's Paradise".

[TGS]

I honestly don't know what "sitting on the circle" means.

As for visiting a country, doing such as well as opening diplomatic channels does not imply we're buddy buddy. Our relations with Cuba are still quite tenuous, as are our relationships with other countries where we've had ongoing diplomatic presence/relations with for decades (or hundreds of years).

I don't understand how opening diplomatic channels with them is an affront to our values, institutions, ect.

[Drang]

...Being from NJ and having a social circle filled with military and various public service personnel, one of the things that gets under my skin with this whole affair was the outcry against opening diplomatic channels with Cuba due to Cuba housing a fugitive who murdered a NJ State Trooper. If they weren't so fucking stupid they'd realize that diplomatic channels are the only way to even have a remote chance at recovering Chesimard short of extraordinary rendition (which is not a realistic option in itself).

I'd watch that movie, though.

[Chance]

The communism killer is just having a bunch of rich Yankees wandering around. Kills the government propaganda that they are living in a "Worker's Paradise".

Is this really true, though? My understanding is that it was a popular vacation spot for the residents of a number of other capitalist countries, is was just the US that was the major hold out. I don't know that as fact, however.

[Drang]

Is this really true, though? My understanding is that it was a popular vacation spot for the residents of a number of other capitalist countries, is was just the US that was the major hold out. I don't know that as fact, however.

I have heard that it is popular with Canadians and Europeans because there are no Americans there.

[Chance]

I honestly don't know what "sitting on the circle" means.

It means you're participating in the circle jerk. If you're unfamiliar with "circle jerk," I encourage you to Google it, but not at work.


As for visiting a country, doing such as well as opening diplomatic channels does not imply we're buddy buddy.

What about sitting next to Raúl Castro at a baseball game?


I don't understand how opening diplomatic channels with them is an affront to our values, institutions, ect.

I've'nt an issue with opening diplomatic channels. That doesn't require the elected leader of the country to visit personally.

[Joe in PNG]

Is this really true, though? My understanding is that it was a popular vacation spot for the residents of a number of other capitalist countries, is was just the US that was the major hold out. I don't know that as fact, however.

Americans are loud and obnoxious. The tend to wander around (outside of the Potemkin Resort), asking stupid questions (of regular people, not the official guides).
They tend to want a bit more in their resorts- things like private bathrooms and air conditioning.
Americans tourist also like to throw money around, in fees and tips and impulse purchases of all sorts of things.

Plus, Cuba is really, really close to a whole lot of Americans.

[Chance]

I have heard that it is popular with Canadians and Europeans because there are no Americans there.

TripAdvisor appears to be quite fond of Cuba. Reviews here (https://www.tripadvisor.com/Hotels-g147270-zff8-Cuba-Hotels.html).

[Jay585]

I don't see the outrage.

It's a picture of him and his entourage in a ceremony, and the mural is what appears to be hundreds of yards away; he's not posing in a fucking che shirt, for christs sake. Considering it's a former COMBLOC country, there's probably displays like that or of other Communist figures all over the damn place. Inconsequential to me, just as it'd be ridiculous for someone to get pissed off if the foreign minister of antiamericastan was in a picture where an American flag was blowing in the background (we display a crazy amount of flags compared to most countries).

If this picture offends you, get the fuck over yourself.

https://media.giphy.com/media/wrzf9P70YWLJK/giphy.gif

[Drang]

Plus, Cuba is really, really close to a whole lot of Americans.

Many of whom have money, and would like to go check on Abuela.

[LOKNLOD]

I have heard that it is popular with Canadians and Europeans because there are no Americans there.

That explains why we haven't been interested until now, sounds like it's contaminated with Europeans and Canadians. "No Americans" would explain why Obama was so eager to get down there, too. :p

[Joe in PNG]

There's also this added benefit- let's let all the young and addled Bernie supporters visit a real, live communist country. A few might come to see the light.

[LOKNLOD]

There's also this added benefit- let's let all the young and addled Bernie supporters visit a real, live communist country. A few might come to see the light.

And if they don't see the light...maybe they'll stay there! Win-Win!

[LittleLebowski]

I don't think he's posing intentionally in front of it.

[Drang]

You and your common sense.

[LostDuke]

I don't see the outrage.

It's a picture of him and his entourage in a ceremony, and the mural is what appears to be hundreds of yards away; he's not posing in a fucking che shirt, for christs sake. Considering it's a former COMBLOC country, there's probably displays like that or of other Communist figures all over the damn place. Inconsequential to me, just as it'd be ridiculous for someone to get pissed off if the foreign minister of antiamericastan was in a picture where an American flag was blowing in the background (we display a crazy amount of flags compared to most countries).

If this picture offends you, get the fuck over yourself.

Well said. Am glad we are going to stop that embargo that supported the isolation and therefore survival of the Castro dictatorship. Democracy needs a middle class, and we can help create a middle class in no time, it's such a small country. The things the Cubans heard today from the President must have created quite a stir already in Havana.

I really want to go visit before hordes of tourists descend on it.

[Joe in PNG]

Well said. Am glad we are going to stop that embargo that supported the isolation and therefore survival of the Castro dictatorship. Democracy needs a middle class, and we can help create a middle class in no time, it's such a small country. The things the Cubans heard today from the President must have created quite a stir already in Havana.

I really want to go visit before hordes of tourists descend on it.

This, so much this. Embargoes just lead to a 'siege' mentality, and people sticking closer to the Leader. The Leader can then blame all his troubles on the embargo.
Open it up, and let it fall.

[HCM]

None of what you wrote is a reason to have no diplomatic relations with a country, at least in the context of how the US has conducted diplomatic business since its inception.

Quite the contrary, diplomatic relations are how you go about addressing things like fugitives, human rights, ect.

Not attributing to you, but relevant: Being from NJ and having a social circle filled with military and various public service personnel, one of the things that gets under my skin with this whole affair was the outcry against opening diplomatic channels with Cuba due to Cuba housing a fugitive who murdered a NJ State Trooper. If they weren't so fucking stupid they'd realize that diplomatic channels are the only way to even have a remote chance at recovering Chesimard short of extraordinary rendition (which is not a realistic option in itself).

Giving her up should have been the first condition met before consideration of normal relations.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard/view

[TGS]

Giving her up should have been the first condition met before consideration of normal relations.

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/wanted_terrorists/joanne-deborah-chesimard/view

The return of fugitives was one of the primary agendas on the table.

[RoyGBiv]

Maybe this is better in the Brussels thread..? Coin toss...

Gives me far more heartburn than the OP's Che mural.

http://media.breitbart.com/media/2016/03/Obama-Cuba-Baseball-Getty-640x480.jpg

[Glenn E. Meyer]

6681

Love, kisses, 9/11 and terrorist funding.

[RoyGBiv]

I bet Bush washed his hands afterwards. Obama seems to be basking.

[Drang]

I don't think he's posing intentionally in front of it.
Courtesy Michelle Malkin (http://michellemalkin.com/2016/03/21/hope-chenge-obama-has-revolutionary-photo-op-in-cuba/), maybe not...
Not definitive, but it looks like he had something to do with the position in front of what looks like a Che Memorial:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skdIQzQJk0U

[Jeep]

Well said. Am glad we are going to stop that embargo that supported the isolation and therefore survival of the Castro dictatorship. Democracy needs a middle class, and we can help create a middle class in no time, it's such a small country. The things the Cubans heard today from the President must have created quite a stir already in Havana.

I really want to go visit before hordes of tourists descend on it.

What isolation? Yes we placed an embargo on Cuba--and almost no one else followed. Most of Latin America and Europe have had diplomatic and trade relations with Cuba pretty much all along.

I think getting rid of the embargo makes sense, but it hardly isolated Cuba. What has kept the Castro's in power were a huge security establishment and first Soviet and then Venezuelan largesse. With Venezuela running out of oil to give Cuba, Raul needed to try to get US bucks to improve his economy, and he was lucky enough to be able to bargain with an administration that is notoriously unable to bargain hard with adversaries.

As of the Che image, some commentators are claiming that building is the headquarters of the Cuban secret police. I have no idea if that is true, but generally advance men are tasked with making sure that there are no photo ops with questionable symbols in the background. The Cuban flag is fine, but Che? So it is either (1) bad advance work (unlikely--they put a huge amount of emphasis on advance), or (2) the political guys think there is more upside to that image than downside. Certainly the Congressional Black Caucus has been a long-time Castro supporter as have some other elements of the administration's base.

Presidents do have to try to get along with foreign leaders who we don't much like. But, we had some cards to play here that we don't seem to have touched, which leads me to believe that Obama wants a perceived diplomatic triumph in his last year in office rather than a more substantive victory. He won't be the first President to do that, but he will go to the end of his days as the President who thought appearing with the image of a vicious totalitarian thug as no big deal.

[LHS]

There's also this added benefit- let's let all the young and addled Bernie supporters visit a real, live communist country. A few might come to see the light.

That's exactly what changed Christopher Hitchens' view of communism, according to one of his books.